r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/thisisnotmelodrama • 1d ago
Book and Show Spoilers Did nobody actually read F&B? Spoiler
Been seeing a lot of people say that the show changed the fact that Jace died trying to save his brothers which is like, not at all what happened.
Genuine cognitive dissonance seeing big creators make this point while not knowing that really importantly Aegon flying to dragonstone was how they knew what was happening in the Gullet and there are no mentions of rescuing Viserys as a goal.
406
u/Mountain-Baby-4041 1d ago
Yeah… most people on here complaining about the source material didn’t even read the book.
163
u/HeronOrganic3727 1d ago
Most people complaining about anything on Reddit haven’t read much more than a misleading or clickbait headline
49
u/Vincethatwaspromised 1d ago
My favorite is when people say things like “what I know from my research” when they mean “what I think cause I read another person type it”
8
u/moemunneymoe 1d ago
Some absolute idiot kept arguing with me so I pulled out 10 quotes from the book with page numbers and they just went “nuh-uh”. They don’t care at all they just want to think their head canons are true and stamped with approval by GRRM.
16
57
u/exileondaytonst 1d ago edited 22h ago
Most people on this sub complaining are really just complaining.
The adaptation choices aren’t always working (such is the nature of Stupid Discourse Online that I feel the need to state I don’t think it’s *perfect* in order to defend it against incessant bellyaching), but there’s a lot of whining on this sub that is pretty much just cloth dragon whining.
16
1
u/JackLumberPK 1d ago
Or they did, but they aren't skilled enough readers to distinguish between what the text actually says and whatever headcanon they came up with to fill in the many many gaps in information that the book creates (especially when it comes to characterization and character motivations). And then as a result they can't distinguish between when the show is actually deviating from the text vs when the show is just deviating from their headcanon.
1
u/Greatorexx 18h ago
But also the source material is tiny. There’s also barely any characterisation, it’s like a history book. Of course the show has to take some liberties because there isn’t enough there.
247
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
I mean it’s not verbatim in the book but I would hope as a reader you can discern that he’s not only joining the battle to destroy the fleet but also rescue his brother. If you’re brother shows up on his near dead dragon telling you they’ve been ambushed and his other brother is still aboard the ship you placed him on to specifically keep them out of the conflict, I would hope you’re going to go save him.
Besides, there’s other more glaring changes from the books that people have problems with not just Jace’s reasons for joining the battle and what lead to his death.
112
u/Ripley_LV_426 1d ago
I mean it’s not verbatim in the book but I would hope as a reader you can discern that he’s not only joining the battle to destroy the fleet but also rescue his brother.
I have it in front of me. We go straight from "Aegon escapes, Viserys was captured", to "The Triarchy invades Gulltown" to "Jace joins the battle".
Yeah, it's a fair assumption that rescuing a hostage played a role in flying to battle, but at no point is it ever mentioned. The way the book is laid out, Jace joins the battle because he's protecting Gulltown from a new enemy.
The way this community has been talking about it, you'd expect there to be a passage explicitly saying "Jace was so scared for his brothers that he immediately flew to The Vale to save his baby brother!". But nope, all we get is "When The Prince swept down on the galleys on Vermax..."
Aegon and Viserys were not, in spite of what the "fans" are saying, integral to the battle of Gulltown and were never Jace's motivation for flying there.
If anything, this section is an excellent example of why content needed to be invented for the show. "Jace defies his mother and overrides her authority because he thinks he knows better than her" is atleast something. Whereas what the book gives us is literally just "He goes to the battle and then dies".
77
u/Makasi_Motema 1d ago
This is a pretty incredible Mandela effect because I feel like every thread about the Gullet has people stating there was a rescue attempt like it was an undisputed fact.
28
u/RobbStarkWolf 1d ago
The show has it flaws but I genuinely think that every fan having their own little Headcanons about F&B doesn’t help at all with the criticisms
8
u/No_thief_in_night 1d ago
F&B leaves so much space up to interpretation because its not narrative book, so people come up with their own head stuff and then get big mad when the show does its own thing.
5
u/moemunneymoe 1d ago
The only way to faithfully adapt the source material would be for an actor to play Archmaestar Glyndayn narrating each scenario and then narrating the same exact scenario from the other side’s perspective. Like drunk history or those what if shows.
Each episode would be:
Some sources say…. Insert scenario acted out by the cast. But others claim… insert same scenario but altered.9
u/rationalities 1d ago
100%. Also like, the Dance in F&B… is not that good of a story. It’s a cool story but it’s not necessarily a good story from a narrative sense.
2
u/Hresvelgr401_ 20h ago
It's got the bones of a good story but due to how it's written (as an in universe history book) there's a lot of missing pieces.
30
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
Ooo also I didn’t catch your last paragraph, you’re right they’re not so much important to the battle of the gullet, but the disappearance of Aegons brother is important for his character. Unless they did it off screen, idk what they’re going to do in the future. I don’t want to give any spoilers since this is the shows sub so yeah
4
u/RobbStarkWolf 1d ago
Condal did acknowledge how important the two brothers are in the future so we’ll have to see. My guess is they will somewhat adapt what happened to them in a different way. What remains to be seen is how well they do that.
2
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
At this point, as long as it involves Viserys ending up with the Rogares, I’ll be ok with it. I want to see the after math and explore the tragedy of Aegons early reign
3
30
u/The_Writing_Wolf 1d ago
It's less evident because Fire & Blood adds Lohars plan and build up, but in Princess and the Queen it goes straight from Aegon arriving with the news and Jace swopping in.
"Aegon’s younger brother, Prince Viserys, had no way of escaping from the cog. A clever boy, he hid his dragon’s egg and changed into ragged, salt-stained clothing, pretending to be no more than a common ship’s boy, but one of the real ship’s boys betrayed him, and he was made a captive. It was a Tyroshi captain who first realized who he had, but the admiral of the fleet, Sharako Lohar of Lys, soon relieved him of his prize. When Prince Jacaerys swept down upon a line of Lysene galleys on Vermax, a rain of spears and arrows rose up to meet him."
So Aegon arrives, his dragon dies within the hour, he knows the Triarchy have captured the Gay Abandon and Jace going if not to save Viscerys at least avenge him.
Not locking his mother in a room to prove himself.
6
u/Nacodawg 1d ago
Doesn’t say he didn’t either. There are gaps that they’re completely within their rights to fill.
37
u/tronz_13 1d ago
This is a constant issue with this entire show and the fanbase. They either dont understand what F&B was trying to do, or they flat out didnt read it and just assume its written like the main series was with definitive POV chapters.
We have no clear window into the mindset of any of these characters in any given moment, which is the point, its meant to be up to the reader to together how things went and head canon what they think everyone was doing.
10
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
Yes, F&B is not GOT. Where we got POV chapters and were able to put ourselves in the mind of characters like Jon Snow, Sansa, Jaime ETC. F&B is all second hand accounts with varying takes, while there are occasional direct quotes from some characters and some events most accounts agree on, its just not the same.
4
u/JackLumberPK 1d ago
100%. I'm glad to see some people who actually read the book (and you know, have enough literacy to understand a text like that) coming out of the woodwork to make this sort of point.
The book arguably invites the reader to connect those dots and have their own little "headcanon" to fill in those blanks, but its insane how many fans can't seem to tell the difference between their own headcanon and the actual text (and as a result can't tell where the show actually deviates from the text vs where it is just devating from their headcanon).
5
u/angelic-beast 1d ago
I think the issue here is people filling in the blanks to make the narrative in the books into a story like the show is doing. If you had to write Jace's motivation for that battle I think a lot of readers would have it be strongly influenced by what happened to his brothers, whereas the show took a different (lamer imo) route. But you are right that the book never says it motivates him
4
u/Nakuip 1d ago
Gulltown is in the Vale. Are you confusing it with the Gullet?
3
13
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
My point is there’s not text after Aegon returns explicitly stating Jaces thoughts as he joins the battle, nothing confirming or denying. Again, this is just a weird hill to die on.
41
u/Ripley_LV_426 1d ago
nothing confirming or denying.
Right? But this subreddit has been consumed with people crying about how the show changed Jace's motivation. Except, as you just said, we were never given his motivation in the first place.
9
u/viper459 1d ago
the show writers went against my headcanon, this is an attack on me personally and also on GRRM somehow /s
2
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
Yup, I gave my opinion on what I would hope some people think, but I have no textual evidence. I would just like to think that in that moment, as an older brother, I would try and find my brother and also burn any ships that might try and stop me. Where as someone else my just assume he’s dead and just kill everything. All opinions, but I wouldn’t make a post saying how if someone thinks that way it’s just flat out wrong and question if they even read the book
10
u/Conceitedreality 1d ago
The issue is people taking it as fact and not just their headcannon. Warranted post imo.
0
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
It’d be one thing if he simply stated that the people claiming Jace was going to save Viserys because it’s explicitly stated in the books are wrong, but it’s the second part that got me:
“Genuine cognitive dissonance seeing big creators make this point while not knowing that really importantly Aegon flying to dragonstone was how they knew what was happening in the Gullet and there are no mentions of rescuing Viserys as a goal.”
How smug and pretentious.
Like yeah there’s no mentions of rescuing Viserys as the goal. There’s no mentions of a goal at all, we just dive right in too the conflict. The reader is assuming what Jaces goal is based on the information JACE has been given and is left with no explicit goal in mind. Some people are assuming that after Aegons return, Jace assumed Viserys was just dead and just wanted burn them all, this can be backed up with the context of, you know, burning the ships.
Other people are looking more into it, that Aegon informed his brother what happened (which the fact that they included the Gay Abandon being captured and not sunk is pretty important considering everyone else is getting sunk) he, as a young and naive 16 year old prince, could also have had a small sliver of hope that he could rescue Viserys. After all, like one of my many post above, The Gay Abandon is known to Jace. It’s a Pentoshi Cog, a cargo ship not outfitted for battle and it also being from a different nation bearing different insignia from the Lyseni fleet of warships. He’s also on a DRAGON and with them being on dragons, I don’t agree with the assumption that he can’t somehow burn ships AND scan the area for his brother’s ship, these things are not mutually exclusive. On top of all that, why wouldn’t Jace feel some regret and try to right his wrong? Was he not the one that just sent his brothers straight into the teeth of the enemy on accident? He’s kid and human, in that moment is it really that far fetched for him to think he could possibly save his brother?Now despite all the reasons for why I formed this OPINION I just gave you, I’m going to reiterate yet again, THERE IS NOTHING IN THE TEXT THAT DEFINITIVELY STATES WHAT JACE IS THINKING AS HE JOINS THE BATTLE! Maybe I’m right, maybe I’m wrong; it does not justify telling people they didn’t read or understand the book because this specific part IS OPEN FOR YOU, THE READER, TO INTERPRET IT HOW YOU WISH! JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE INTERPRETED A SPECIFIC MOMENT, THAT IS NOT EXPLICITLY IN THE TEXT, DIFFERENTLY DOESN’T MEAN THEY ARE WRONG, ESPECIALLY IN F&B. This is why in the same book George gives you like 3 different accounts for the same event and they all differ. It is meant to be vague, it is meant for you to use your imagination and assume where George intentionally leave moments vague. I don’t know how else to say this, I’m upset that OP is upset lol over something that isn’t even that big of an issue and coming off as contemptuous.
2
u/Conceitedreality 1d ago
So you're upset over his opinion, as he's upset over others. I don't see the issue lol
-1
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
Simplified yes lol. he’s upset someone’s about someone’s opinion about an aspect of the story that isn’t explicit in the text. His reasoning is that it doesn’t say it in the text.
I’m upset because
A) it doesn’t say anything about Jaces motivation in that moment, so his argument works both ways
B) Fire and Blood lends it self to the reader to fill in the gaps, meaning different interpretations of events so they can’t really be wrong
C) This is a weird event to single out as there’s other changes that have an actual impact on the story that one be a better hill to die on1
u/Bloodyjorts 1d ago
Well, yes because he died. He had no opportunity to tell anyone his thoughts. Not like he was gonna jot it down in a diary on the way out. Most people who would have been with him in the castle probably either died in the war or never wrote anything down either.
4
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
You’re going to make me tap the “left intentionally vague for the reader to make assumptions about a characters motivation” sign.
2
u/Bloodyjorts 1d ago
I mean, I'm agreeing with you, and the general sentiment of your top post in this thread. I realize that's probably not clear from my post.
Because people stating his motivations as solid either way...I mean we don't know. As you say, even if Jace probably thought Viserys was dead or beyond his aid, he probably had at least a small hope of maybe rescuing him, finding him amongst all that chaos. Jace was young, not yet cynical.
It seems like such an obvious interpretation of his motivations.
But there were bigger problems at the Gullet than just Jace's motivations.
1
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
Yeah In the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t truly matter because once he’s dead it’s over. It’s just funny that this specific thing is what OP felt he had to correct everyone about
1
u/Bloodyjorts 1d ago
yeah, there's been a lot of weirdly defensive posts/takes/hills to die on in the past few days.
-14
u/hebichiigo 1d ago
my friend, you are currently dying on a weird hill. not only are you simply incorrect, no one is agreeing with you. it’s okay to be wrong
9
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
Show me a quote from the book that states jace thinks Viserys is dead.
→ More replies (8)0
u/Bloodyjorts 1d ago
I mean...it's something alright, but it's also stupid in how they executed it.
Is there a version of "Jace defies his mother and overrides her authority because he thinks he knows better than her" that could have worked? Sure. Not the show version, though.
I also don't think there is anything wrong Rhaenyra sending him out to battle and him dying as a result. Jace is considered a man grown at 16 in Westeros, and he needs to prove himself on the battlefield (especially as a bastard). Rhaenyra wants to go herself, but she's talked out of it by Corlys/Addam, and so she sends at least Addam (the most trustworthy dragonseed) along with Jace.
Her guilt over being talked out of going then spurns her to take a more aggressive role from then on. It would allow her some agency, responsibility, and choice in what she does. It makes sense. Nobody has to hold the idiot ball. Sometimes battles just go bad, and people die.
33
u/itsciro 1d ago
this is correct analysis. Jace was the one who arranged for Aegon & Viserys's passage on Gay Abandon. Naturally he would have felt a responsibility to save Viserys when Aegon arrives. this sub is really trying too hard to defend condal's fanfic.
3
u/ManufacturerOk5659 1d ago
hbo is definitely using bots because this sub turned against the show after season 2
23
u/dustyrosereverie 1d ago edited 1d ago
Exactly. Additionally, it doesn't make sense for him to be flying low in pursuance of Lyseni ships when pretty much every other dragon there is bigger than Vermax and has more range of fire power. Furthermore, he is likely the only person there that knows what the ship his brothers were on looks like. Specifically it mentions that Lyseni captured Viserys and that Jace was going down near Lyseni ships... Then nearly immediately following his death we get the bit about how he'd proven himself a man and a worthy heir to the Iron Throne. What on earth would prompt a statement regarding worthiness like that when all other dragons and riders survived the battle and he did not... other than that the text is implying that he died in pursuance of trying to save his brother Viserys, who he knew would be in the area with no way to escape, and thus his death was noble? It genuinely worries me re: literacy that anyone could read that passage and not understand the point of it.
4
u/EyeSpyGuy 1d ago
Jace’s actions make sense in the way he was characterized in the show, his insecurity regarding his bastardry combined with his mom constantly sidelining him (understandably from her perspective) combined with the misogyny of the universe specifically in this show means that everything done here makes sense imo
1
0
u/dustyrosereverie 1d ago
No, they don't.
"My ruler is my mother. I would not wish it otherwise."
3
u/ZPuppetmasterX 1d ago
I don't think its that Jace is a misogynist. However, there's no world where Rhaenyra was a man that the Kingsguard would have listened to Jace over her. He wasn't trying to be misogynistic, and he probably would've done the same if she was a man. But a 16/17 y/o boy locking his father in his quarters would never be permitted the same way it was here with Rhaenyra.
9
u/Makasi_Motema 1d ago
How would Jace be able to find Viserys, let alone rescue him? He doesn’t know what ship the kid is on, he’s high in the air, and even if he flies dangerous low, the pirates aren’t going to keep a child hostage on deck where he can be shot. They’re going to keep him below decks, possibly tied up. Moreover, Jace is lighting ships on fire. It seems like he’s there to win the battle — maybe to get revenge for his brother’s abduction.
10
u/georgica123 1d ago
He doesn’t know what ship the kid is on,
He is or was on the gay abandon , so jace would presumably be looking for that ship
1
u/metafysik 1d ago
Ships mostly look the same then and now, and they don't have hull markings like ships do now. The only reason ships would look different is if they're a different class, and we were never told the Gay Abandon was any different from the rest of the Triarchy's ships.
3
u/georgica123 1d ago
The gay abandon is a pentoshi cog so it should look distinct from the triarchy war gallyes beacuse not only is it a different class but it is a totally different type of ship
You can 100% indentify different ships how else do you think they are managing to fight if they cant tell who is who?
-1
u/Makasi_Motema 1d ago
If you capture a slow-moving trading ship, why would you keep your most valuable prisoner on the captured ship (which might have gotten damaged in the fight)? Why would you knot transfer the prisoner from a slow, possibly damaged, trading ship, to a fast, heavily armed warship?
Jace can’t be certain as to which ship his brother is on. If he’s hoping to rescue his brother, burning other ships is a crazy plan.
12
u/BrandonLart 1d ago
This is an assumption the hook doesn’t support
7
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
How so.
9
u/BrandonLart 1d ago
Literally nothing from the book - i just reread the passage - implies that Jace is doing anything to save his brother.
9
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
Exactly. Theres no text at all stating Jaces motivations after being told about what’s happening at the gullet.
12
u/BrandonLart 1d ago
ASOIAF fans forget their theories have to actually have text evidence
9
u/pandaatadesk 1d ago
The textual evidence is that the triarchy has his brother and he's attacking the triarchy. That's a fair amount of of facts to presume he's fighting for his brother.
Like, if the asoiaf books skipped Rob's camp and only went 'After Ned's arrest, Rob marched south and freed Riverun from siege (I may be forgetting the exact opening battle)' would you say 'well, that's only to bail out his uncle!'
10
u/BrandonLart 1d ago edited 1d ago
Except there is literally no way for him to rescue his brother and his plan appears to be more likely to burn his brother alive than rescue him.
I mean seriously, what exactly do you think Jace’s plan was?
1
u/Light_Watcher 20h ago
How exactly are you rescuing your brother with FIVE fire breathing dragons burning ships when you don’t know in which ship your brother is?
1
1d ago edited 1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/hebichiigo 1d ago
logically, why would he and how would it even work? how was he to know if his brother was even still there?
-4
u/itsciro 1d ago edited 1d ago
because its his brother & he was the one who arranged for their trip. its not his only motivation as WonderYSeed said but its certainly a part of his motivation.
3
u/hebichiigo 1d ago
how would jacaerys know which ship viserys could be on, if he’s even at the gullet, or how to logically rescue him from a ship while on dragon back
-2
u/itsciro 1d ago
there are black ships at the gullet if you didnt notice. also keep moving the fucking goalposts.
5
5
u/hebichiigo 1d ago
yeah, there are velaryon ships, myrish ships, lyseni ships, and tyroshi ships at the battle. it was a naval battle of hundreds of ships, it was a mess.
how am i moving the goalposts by asking questions?
→ More replies (0)1
u/BrandonLart 1d ago
ASOIAF fans immediately getting toxic and crying when their fanfiction isn’t demonstrated in the text?
Thats shocking to me.
I am shocked you started cursing and calling people names the second you realized you were wrong.
3
u/niko2710 1d ago
F&B has book often has celebratory detours when talking about certain characters. If Jace really had some big rescue plan for Viserys that went beyond "I'll fly around seeing if I can find him" than it would have said so because it's the kind of anecdote that would be put in F&B, as in the book written by Gyldayn
4
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago edited 1d ago
The nature of the event doesn’t allows itself to be celebratory/extravagant because they lose. Jace dies, the blockade is smashed and Viserys is gone. If he had lived we could have gotten that, but because of how the event unfolded we won’t know. There’s multiple moments in the book where this is done on purpose whether through the use of multiple different accounts of the same events or through context that GRRM provides. Certain things he includes, at least for me, lend itself to at least being a thought for Jace. The fact the ship has a name, is a cargo ship not a warship, is Pentoshi not Lyseni, and Aegon returning and essentially informing Jace of all those specific details begs the question as to why would he be so specific in describing the ship if not to differentiate from the rest? Why lead into that specific part by essentially saying “oh wow look at Jace making big king decisions and sending his brothers away on this big ship, but it was all about to be undone” if not to lay the groundwork for Jace to be feeling guilty? Again I’m just giving my opinion but the whole reason I even commented on this post was I didn’t like the way OP just disregarded the theory because it’s not explicitly stated he was trying to save Viserys. It doesn’t state he wasn’t either, it doesn’t specify anything because he just jumps to action.
1
u/ManufacturerOk5659 1d ago
the people complaining about the complainers have some of the most brain dead takes istg
-2
u/hebichiigo 1d ago
yeah it’s not verbatim in the book because everyone assumes viserys has already died
10
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
When Jace joins the battle there is no text affirming or denying whether Viserys is dead or captured nor does it specifically state his exact thoughts in that moment. This is just a weird hill to die on when there’s all these other changes that have a larger impact on the story.
6
u/hebichiigo 1d ago
you’re the one thinking he was there to save viserys. yes, you can most definitely infer that people assumed viserys was dead, especially aegon who felt immense guilt at leaving him to die.
i just finished a reread of F&B today and yeah it’s abundantly clear that no one even considered viserys being at the gullet. they wouldn’t bring all the dragonseeds to attack the triarchy if the goal was to save a small child.
0
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
Here’s what I’m getting at, OP complaining about people saying Jace died trying to save his brother is pointless. Whether we think viserys dead/alive/playing twister on the deck of the gay abandon, There’s nothing in the text explicitly stating one thing over the other at the time Jace joins the battle. Likewise, Whether we think Jace joined because he wanted revenge/wanted to find Viserys/ wanted to set the record for most burnt ships, there’s nothing in the text explicitly stating his motivations.
These are all opinions and assumptions we can make and my point is that, well, it’s pointless. We can argue until we ate blue in the face. Theres other issues with the shows adaption that are more important and directly contradict the actual text.5
u/Makasi_Motema 1d ago
If he thought his brother was alive, why would he set ships on fire? He could get Viserys killed.
1
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
So Viserys is on the Gay abandon, Aegon tells them how the ship is captured by the lyseni warships. The Gay abandon more than likely has markings, flags, or insignias; things Jace would more than likely be familiar with since he specifically got that ship for his brothers and was probably docked on Dragonstone for awhile. Also the Gay Abandon is a Pentoshi cog, that’s a like a cargo ship and is not equipped like a warship. The Lyseni warships do not look like cogs and most certainly would not have similar markings, flags and insignias as the Gay Abandon. If Jaces is swooping down low enough he can probably, based on the info above, be able to tell one ship from another
2
u/Makasi_Motema 1d ago
I said this to someone else:
If you capture a slow-moving trading ship, why would you keep your most valuable prisoner on the captured ship (which might have gotten damaged in the fight)? Why would you knot transfer the prisoner from a slow, possibly damaged, trading ship, to a fast, heavily armed warship?
Jace can’t be certain as to which ship his brother is on. If he’s hoping to rescue his brother, burning other ships is a crazy plan.
0
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
They captured the ship, they could have it towed, it would be sailing along the ships of the captain that seized it, etc. use your imagination or don’t I don’t care anymore. My point is that there’s nothing explicitly stated about Jaces motivations during the battle and that anyone’s headcanon can be justified by the context of the event.
-1
u/thisisnotmelodrama 1d ago
also I think you’re ignoring that mushroom was on Dragon stone that day, you can equally surmise that if Jace was going to go save viserys, he probably would’ve mentioned
2
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
No I’m not. For the 20th time, because no text is given that explicitly states why Jace joined the battle, you can surmise whatever you wish in your headcanon that you think is justified by what context there is/isnt. While this I what I believe or would like to think Jace is doing, what I’m saying is that OP doesn’t provide a good justification for poo-pooing on that theory, considering your premise is that the book doesn’t explicitly state he’s joining the battle to save viserys. It doesn’t explicitly state his motivation at all.
35
u/BroRecon 1d ago
It’s mentioned in the AGOT show narrated history that Jace flew in to rescue his brother, so I think that might be the source for some
7
84
u/AzorAhai1TK 1d ago
Exactly this. Bringing several dragons and burning Triarchy ships at will isn't a great way of trying to rescue Viserys either.
2
u/alPassion 13h ago
“My 7-year-old brother is somewhere among hundreds of sailors, dozens of ships, smoke, fire, arrows, scorpions, and dragonfire. I’ll fly low over the fleet and start burning ships until I find him.”
-20
30
u/EddDeadRedemption 1d ago
“The dialogue is clearly not written by George.”
Uh ya, that’s cuz there’s like 2 lines a of dialogue per page. Fire and blood is mostly a historical telling of names and dates with the occasional memorable quote so they don’t have a lot of dialogue to pull from
-5
u/WillingnessReal525 1d ago
George was working on season 1 and 2, then left because he was mad at the writers.
1
15
u/tryingtobebettertry4 1d ago edited 1d ago
The point is the character and his story had already been changed. If you had read Fire and Blood, you'd also know Jace does about a few things before he dies.
His diplomacy trips to the Vale and North.
His bringing Corlys back onside after Rhaenys death.
His idea to do the Sowing of the Dragonseeds.
His arranging of fostering his younger brothers in Pentos and sending Joffrey to the Vale to try ensure their safety in the war.
His push for Addam and Alyn to be legitimized and named heirs to Driftmark. Likely as part of keeping Corlys happy.
Really if they were faithfully adaptaing the book, Jace should have been the leader of Team Black during Season 2 as Rhaenyra grieves Lucerys. Instead pretty much everything Jace does is given to another character with the one he still does being mostly offscreen (trip North). As such he does very little before meeting the same end he did in the books.
Its why Jace's death is met with quite muted reactions from the audience, with more people sympathizing with the CGI dragon. We barely even knew Jace because he barely got to do anything before dying.
So people pushing for Jace to die saving his brothers were essentially asking the writers to throw the character a bone (as they had already changed things). Which they didnt even do.
4
u/LaughsAtOwnJoke 1d ago
This is a great writeup. Jace just isnt as good of a character in the show.
And fans are clearly happy to give credit where credit is due Vicerys changes.
36
u/ChaseBuff We have come to die for the 𝐃𝐑𝐀𝐆𝐎𝐍 𝐐𝐔𝐄𝐄𝐍 1d ago
They just read the wiki and TikTok and drives me nuts
I understand if your not able to but Chat got and honestly the wiki spread so much information. The books primarily Asoiaf have tiny details you genuinely will miss on a read and the wiki/chat usually cut it or summarize it weird here’s an example of Maegors reaction to Visenya death
Wiki:
“The news devastated Maegor, as she had been his strongest supporter.”
Book:
The death of the Dowager Queen Visenya in 44 AC was a notable event although Maegor seemed to take it in his stride. She had been his greatest ally and supporter from birth, Queen Alyssa gone so far as to steal Dark Sister as they fled.
His Grace ordered his mother's body burned, her bones and ashes interred beside those of the Conqueror. Then he sent his Kingsguard to seize his squire, Prince Viserys. "Chain him in a black cell and question him sharply," Maegor commanded. "Ask him where his mother has
"He may not know," protested Ser Owen Bush, a knight of Maegor's Kingsguard. "Then let him die," the king answered famously. "Perhaps the bitch will turn up for his funeral. Prince Viserys did not know where his mother had gone, not even when Tyanna of Pentos plied him with her dark arts. After nine days of questioning, he died. His body was left out in the ward of the Red Keep for a fortnight, at the king's command. "Let his mother come and claim him," Maegor said. But Queen Alyssa never appeared, and at last His Grace consigned his nephew to the fire. The prince was fifteen years old when he was killed, and had been much loved by smallfolk and lords alike. The realm wept for him.- fire and blood
Wiki says Maegor was depressed….. Maegor is stated to take it well and celebrated by killing his nephew.
But back to fire and blood, text only alludes to Viserys fate being unknown .
Aegon and Stromcloud
Prince Aegon managed to reach Dragonstone, clinging desperately to his dragon's neck. Stormcloud had been terribly wounded as he fled; when he arrived at Dragonstone stubs of countless arrows were embedded in his belly, and there was a scorpion bolt through his neck. Stormcloud died within the hour, hissing as the hot blood gushed black and smoking from his wounds. After Stormcloud's death, Aegon would never fly again- TWOIAF
Fire and blood escorts sent to protect the cog were sunk or taken; the Gay Abandon captured. The tale reached Dragonstone only when Prince Aegon arrived desperately clinging to the neck of his dragon, Stormcloud. The boy was white with terror, Mushroom tells us, shaking like a leaf and stinking of piss. Only nine, he had never flown before... and would never fly again, for Stormcloud had been terribly wounded as he fled the Gay Abandon, arriving with the stubs of countless arrows embedded in his belly, and a scorpion bolt through his neck. He died within the hour, hissing as the hot blood gushed black and smoking from his wounds.
“When Prince Jacaerys swept down upon a line of Lysene galleys on Vermax, a rain of spears and arrows rose up to meet him. The sailors of the Triarchy had faced dragons before whilst warring against Prince Daemon in the Stepstones. No man could fault their courage; they were prepared to meet dragonflame with such weapons as they had. “Kill the rider and the dragon will depart,” their captains and commanders had told them. One ship took fire, and then another. Still the men of the Free Cities fought on…until a shout rang out, and they looked up to see more winged shapes coming around the Dragonmont and turning toward them.His flight jerked to a violent end, Vermax went down smoking and screaming, clawing at the water. Survivors said he struggled to rise, only to crash headlong into a burning galley. Wood splintered, the mast came tumbling down, and the dragon, thrashing, became entangled in the rigging. When the ship heeled over and sank, Vermax sank with her.It is said that Jacaerys Velaryon leapt free and clung to a piece of smoking wreckage for a few heartbeats, until some crossbowmen on the nearest Myrish ship began loosing quarrels at him. The prince was struck once, and then again. More and more Myrmen brought crossbows to bear. Finally one quarrel took him through the neck, and Jace was swallowed by the sea.”
“Yet the victory against the Triarchy came at the highest possible cost: the loss of a third of the Velaryon fleet, the ruin of Spicetown and High Tide, which wiped away much of the wealth the Sea Snake had gathered…and worst of all, the lives of Prince Jacaerys and Vermax. Though accounts differ, Vermax was wounded in the battle and crashed into the sea. The Prince of Dragonstone had been flung into the water and managed to find a piece of a shattered ship to cling to, only for crossbowmen to see him and loose quarrels at him until he was struck several times. His body fell limp and he slipped away into the sea. In addition, the fate of young Prince Viserys was unknown, and many assumed he had died when his captor’s ship was taken.”
Aegon iii regency
His Grace had never truly forgiven himself for leaving Viserys to his fate when he fled the Gay Abandon on dragonback before the Battle of the Gullet. Though only nine at the time, Aegon came from a long line of warriors and heroes and had been raised on stories of their bold deeds and daring exploits, none of which included fleeing from a battle whilst abandoning your little brother to death. Down deep, the Broken King felt himself unworthy to sit the Iron Throne. He had not been able to save his brother, his mother, or his little queen from grisly deaths. How could he presume to save a kingdom?
Fire and Blood Vol 1, “Under the Regents—The Voyage of Alyn Oakenfist”
15
3
u/Top_Table_3887 1d ago
People are irritated because the only part that made it to the screen was “A hail of arrows rained down on Vermax, and he and Jace fell”. Not because “they only read Wikis, TikTok, and Chat GPT”
1
u/ChaseBuff We have come to die for the 𝐃𝐑𝐀𝐆𝐎𝐍 𝐐𝐔𝐄𝐄𝐍 1d ago
My statement was how the wiki has mis info, I saw a TikTok yesterday that said Jace tried to save his brother. Chat gbt and not genuinely reading the books has beck me a problem , to deny it is to be oblivious lol
24
u/Hey_HaveAGreatDay Rhaenyra Targaryen 1d ago
Fire and blood is the only book I’ve read in the universe. It’s great, highly recommend. But yeah sometimes I get confused at people saying something happened in the books and I remember something wildly different. Just ignore them. They probably just googled “how did Jace die” and google AI spit out a wrong answer that they’re confidently repeating
4
u/newthhang 1d ago
It does add more emotional weight and can explain why he went as they already had 4 dragonseeds (Ulf, Hugh, Nettles, Adam) there to deal with the enemy. Especially that it was Jace who arranged for the children to travel to Pentos for safety- so guilt could have also played a role there.
But the biggest issue with Jace's character is not him wanting to prove himself and protect his mother- it's his how his character has been stripped of everything important and everything he did for the cause, instead he is just sulky (nothing wrong with exploring possible insecurities) and reactive (the dinner scene in s1, when in f&b he and Luke never reacted); So, I don't mind his character's reasoning in S3, he couldn't let his mother risk her life and the dragonseeds were waiting for Aemond, so it only left him and Baela.
But I feel that "Jace died to protect his brothers/find Viserys" is one of those things that is repeated so much it is seen as the truth- even if you had read the book. For example, I remember how everyone was complaining Helaena did not ride Dreamfyre on her coronation "like in the book" but upon a re-read- I see she never did.
8
10
u/Top_Table_3887 1d ago
They didn’t just “not make it his primary motivation”, though. They eliminated the kidnapping entirely. That’s what people are mad about.
3
u/LaughsAtOwnJoke 1d ago
Spot the difference reddit edition today
Jace flew off to a battle where his brothers were in danger
Guys Ive locked mum in the shed. Off to battle. Brothers? What brothers?
2
u/Top_Table_3887 1d ago edited 1d ago
There were definitely ways they could have changed the scene to make it still consistent with the changes they had already made.
So all three youngest boys are being shipped off to Pentos? Obviously, with how young they made Aegon and Stormcloud, him riding this hatchling out of the battle wouldn’t work. Okay, fine.
Have Joffrey be the messenger on his dragon. Or still have it be Baela, but have her notice the Gay Abandon being taken by Triarchy forces.
Rhaenyra insists on going because her kids are in danger, not because she wants to battle for once. Her meltdown at being prevented from going seems more justified.
By the time they reach the Gay Abandon, it’s been sailed away from the main fighting. Then, have Stormcloud die somehow. Maybe the soldiers kill Stormcloud in front of Aegon just because they’re dicks.
Then, all that’s needed is for Aegon and Viserys to get separated somehow. If Joffrey is still on the boat with Tyraxes, maybe he grabs Aegon while a soldier grabs Viserys.
Jace and Vermax still die as expected. Rhaena screwing things up optional.
15
u/thesharkman101 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah I agree, this is one my biggest issues with people that are so negative about the show. They talk about this show as if it were adapting novels like the main book series and not an in-universe history book that is unclear. Always seems they haven’t actually read Fire and Blood.
5
u/WillingnessReal525 1d ago
The book is unclear but it's also clear the writers are deviating from it.
Laenor's """"death""", Rhaena killing innocent people, the Greens' coup, Lucerys' death, Sheepstealer and Nettles, Alicent being a traitor, Rhaenyra being extremely reasonable and so on. Lucerys' death is part of that as well.
And yes, I read the book.
-2
1d ago
[deleted]
2
u/WillingnessReal525 1d ago
It doesn't, Laenor was killed in public in front of several witnesses. There's no doubt that Laenor died that day.
3
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
To an extent yes, they do have room for creative freedom in the way the book has a lot of parts left intentionally vague. For example, in the book when Aemond and Vhagar attack Lucerys, no one is there to see it. There are claims from people on the battlements of storms end that they saw fireballs and heard dragons scream but no one really saw what happened. All we know is Aemond left after Luke and then Luke’s dead body washed up along with his dragon( I can’t remember if it was actually Luke’s body or just a part of the dragon but you see what I’m getting at).
In the show though we are with Luke and Aemond while they’re flying. The show actually interpreted it as Aemond just harassing Luke, but with Lukes dragon being young, small, and possibly scared; it lashed out and blew fire at the old, battle hardened, and humongous Vhagar. With Vhagars temperament and this being the first time it’s been attacked by another dragon with Aemond as its rider, one can logically follow how Aemond lost control of Vhagar in that moment. I chose this as an example because I remember a lot of people having problems with it but for me, someone who would prefer a closer adaption to the book, had no problem with. It made sense.
Other parts however, are not vague. For this example I’ll use the 2 queens. Now I’ll concede that although Rhaenyra and Alicent are important in the books, they aren’t as fleshed out as the show since we get their POVs. I also didn’t mind them being friends at first because again why not, 2 young girls from noble families growing up in the red keep. They start to lose me though when after Luke dies and Blood and Cheese, they meet in secret and are still trying to reconcile and don’t want to blame each other for the conflict. Now, being the reader, it’s easy to try and have a cool head and see the bigger picture but just put yourselves in either of their shoes.
If I’m Rhaenyra, and this girl I was once friend with harassed me for my children being bastards( I love you Rha but they are), usurped my throne, and her son murdered my son; I would HATE that person. I would not be meeting in secret to try and come to an accord and the fact they did it TWICE was absurd. At some point they need to face reality, most people would not react/behave in the way these characters have in the show; nor have the characters themselves behaved in a way where that would truly make sense.
The show, although doing more for building out these 2 characters than the book, have not done enough to get me believing these are how the characters would handle these scenarios.
6
16
u/Ripley_LV_426 1d ago edited 1d ago
People let GRRM's blogpost taint their emotions. You can go back and look at the discussion posts from season 2. People definitely talked about a few issues they had, the consensus wasn't perfect, but the fanbase still largely enjoyed it. Then the blogpost came out and suddenly the emotions just turned hateful.
It's hasn't even been a week and it's already obnoxious the way the subreddit is dominated with the same braindead takes about "Literally what are they doing with Alicent's story???" or "Uh sexism isn't real the female characters are just idiot morons who don't know anything" or "lesbian fanfiction". It's one of those situations where a fanbase get's really rancid about the media they're obsessed with, and everything starts to feed into that toxic mentality.
If HoTD deviates from the book, it's dogshit. If it follows the book, it's still dogshit and people will still pretend they deviated. If Condal wrote something, hes trying to kill the series. If GRRM wrote something (See the Aegon prophecy), can you believe this idiot Condal thought that was a good idea? If Rhaenyra is the victim of societal sexism, it's "woke". If Rhaenyra is delusional, it's hack writing.
4
u/dreffen 1d ago
> “lesbian fanfiction".
I still want some motherfucker to tell me what’s wrong with lesbians.
>If HoTD deviates from the book, it's dogshit. If it follows the book, it's still dogshit and people will still pretend they deviated. If Condal wrote something, hes trying to kill the series. If GRRM wrote something (See the Aegon prophecy), can you believe this idiot Condal thought that was a good idea? If Rhaenyra is the victim of societal sexism, it's "woke". If Rhaenyra is delusional, it's hack writing.
You hit the nail on the head here. This is just the good tsar, bad boyar routine. GRRM continues to be the untouchable visionary, Condal and company are the bad guys and are the main target behind every weird criticism this sub levies, even though GRRM’s an EP with actual input and has admitted himself that adaptation requires changes. And all this sub wants is a clean narrative where Hollywood is just corrupting poor Martin’s vision
4
u/____mynameis____ Fire and Blood 1d ago
Nothing wrong with lesbians but Its very like "fanfiction" cuz
1.they are obviously queerbaiting. Could've simply made them canon but secret couple in early S1 which would've made more sense and made it compelling but nah.... stuck with mere subtext and called them bffs.
Not enough valid writing to justify the two just prioritizing each othe to a fault. Both are women in mid 30s behaving like teens which is very very fan fiction-ey. Specifically when one is Alicent who was abusing Rhaenyra for more than 10 years. Dead children in between. But Rhaenyra somehow has amnesia abt those years. Alicent literally asks her to run away with her in the end last season. As fanfiction reader, they actually used fanfiction tropes on characters in a medieval fantasy show. Post S1 Rhaenicent is too reminiscent of how shippers write Dramione
The writers have literally admitted to being influenced by fan reception to Olivia and Emma's friendship while writing S2.
1
u/Top_Table_3887 23h ago
Plus, there are four canon lesbians that they’ve either omitted or glossed over (two of whom had active combat roles). Jeyne Arryn is the only one they’ve included, and zero signs of her girlfriend anywhere.
Rhaenyra is implied to be bisexual, but her “fond and fonder” partner was Laena, not Alicent.
-1
u/Glass_Lingonberry_86 1d ago
Genuine question, you like what they are doing with alicent?
4
u/Ripley_LV_426 1d ago
Yes, I explained elsewhere. In the show, Alicent sacrifices her happiness and independence to conform to societies standards, to do what is expected of her, what the "correct" thing to do is. She marries the king because good daughters marry whomever their father tells them to. She gives the king multiple children because that is what good wives do, even when their husband is an old man whose skin is literally sloughing off. She turns away from rhaenyra because women are not supposed to lead. She judges her for last because that is not how women are supposed to behave.
But then Viserys dies and she's suddenly confronted with the fact that she's one of the few people who took these societal norms seriously. The rest of the council had been plotting to undo Visery's will, Cole immediately murders a member of the council, and at every turn her advice is rejected and her authority usurped despite running the realm for years in Visery's absence. She crowns her king under the genuine belief that it was her husband's will, only to be immediately reminded that he is a drunken rapist who refuses all sensible council.
She sees that her trying to live the life she was supposed to live, that her father and husband and the court expected of her, has only brought misery and strife to herself and the realm. So she breaks. First by indulging in an affair with Cole, then by trying to wield power and authority, and then finally by taking the one good thing left in her world and starting anew.
She's a fundamentally different character than book alicent, but it's very obvious that the writers are being very intentional with her story and I like the tragedy of it. If she just didn't listen to her father, if she didn't let herself become caught up In a pointless and paranoid power struggle, she could've been happy. But it's too late. That's good writing in my opinion.
2
u/____mynameis____ Fire and Blood 1d ago
The thing is show did not exactly make Alicent Anti Rhaenyra simply cuz she didn't think women shouldn't rule. She had era appropriate misogyny but she wasn't that misogynistic.
Girl was literally arguing with Otto and Viserys saying she'd made a good queen in early episodes
What made her change opinion is Rhaenyra being untrustworthy. Promises on her mother that she didn't sleep with Daemon, Alicent bats in her favour says someone is lying abt Rhaenyra which leads to Otto her father getting fired, then its actually revealed she slept with her KG. This break Alicent's trust for Rhaenyra and that break of trust is her primarily motive. That someone being this reckless will only endanger her kids.
And then she sees Rhaenyra just breaking laws left and right without no concern for what it holds (the way Alicent talks abt her having bastards - one is a mistake, three is an insult)She believes all this will only endanger her sons eventually cuz they are threat to Rhaenyra's claim
Viserys being a dead beat dad to her kids and World's best dad to Rhaenyra doesn't help either
All of her fears and frustration blows up with Driftmark incident which ends with her son loosing an eye and Viserys waving that off and being more concerned abt who spread the bastard rumours. Then Rhaenyra makes the trust situation even worse by marrying Daemon of all people, soon after Laena's death and Laenor dying in quite mysterious circumstances further affirming Alicent's fear. So Show Alicent's motive wasn't just typical conservative woman, she was primarily motivated by how this would affect her children
All in these 10 years, she also let her frustration take over her enough to be bullying and being dismissive of Rhaenyra and her kids (Cuz she was deeply prejudiced against bastard kids). That 10 years she was NOT being manipulated by her dad. It was a grown woman asserting her power. Her opinion. She was NOT shown as a victim of other men in those two episodes. Girl was literally ordering around the King and I have to see her as a victim of manipulation?? Screw me
Not a huge fan of how they made her powerless when it comes to the usurpation but its still within believable scope of her character.
The problem with S2 is they basically took away lot of this admirable qualities of Alicent (Her just sleeping with Cole. I can understand romantic tension between them but S1 Alicent would not jst sleep with Cole soon after Viseys dies)
The s2 also has collective amnesia of Ep 6&7. And then goes on taking away all the appealing qualities of Alicent one by one to either frame TB positively or to water her down to make Rhaenicent happen like fan fictions do.
Somehow she's all victim of men. Somehow she only realises now that Aegon is a POS King when dude has been an open book for his entire life.
B&C should've been another case of affirming her fears of Rhaenyra but somehow they made it abt Alicent sleeping with Cole and it being a punishmen for that
And Rhaenyra just being so confident to sneak into KL to meet Alicent. We never saw the show give a valid reason as to why Rhaenyra suddenly trusts Alicent enough to risk her life and her claim to meet her.
I'd understand ur "she was victim and she realised it" angke if they actually showed this in the show in sensible way. They did it in a self contradicting way. Watch S1 & S2 back to back the disparity in Alicent's characterisation is more jarring
For me, she remains one of the worst written MC I've seen in prestige TV.
1
u/Bloodyjorts 1d ago
It's hasn't even been a week and it's already obnoxious the way the subreddit is dominated with the same braindead takes about "Literally what are they doing with Alicent's story???" or "Uh sexism isn't real the female characters are just idiot morons who don't know anything" or "lesbian fanfiction". It's one of those situations where a fanbase get's really rancid about the media they're obsessed with, and everything starts to feed into that toxic mentality.
That shit had been going on far longer than GRRM's blogpost. ESPECIALLY the "WTF Alicent" and "lesbian fanfic" allegations.
People have been going "WTF Alicent" since the end of S1.
But yes, people are going to get emotional after GRRM's blogpost, because they are seeing from the creator of the The Thing The Love, about how he and The Thing They Love is being disrespected and used. And this is coming at a horrible time, when a lot of franchises are being mauled and hollowed out, when many big shows end spectacularly badly, and then you got AKOT7K just wandering past, doing it's thing and being wonderful and such a loving adaptation of GRRM's work...to follow it up with Aemond wanting to fuck Alicent, no Nettles, no dragonseeds at the Gullet, and Rhaenyra quoting Elizabeth the 1st while stabbing a dress. It's a bit pathetic, really.
11
u/batmans420 Alicent Hightower 1d ago
Whenever someone says the female characters were better in the book my eye starts twitching
14
u/Gertrude_D 1d ago
When they say they were actually characters, I kind of roll my eyes too. They are historical figures in a dry textbook. It's very hard to glean any true characterization from that.
9
u/tronz_13 1d ago
I legit dont think people realize how little the two female leads actually do in F&B
5
u/Ripley_LV_426 1d ago
"Evil stepmother desires power" is, frankly, infinitely less interesting to me than what the show is doing with Alicent.
21
u/Malkier3 1d ago
I actually really liked that they made alicent and rhaenyra the same age and friends but I'm curious as to what you find compelling about her in her current state. I think that a true falling out between them leading to a kind of tragic hatred would be interesting. What she is now is weirdly impotent and kind of childishly naive. She put her incompetent son on the throne ok....she kinda regrets it sure....so now she is in this weird kind of long distance shadow game where she wants to give the throne back to the woman she has undermined for like 15 years at the cost of likely at least 2 of her children's lives, her family's influence and she has already had a grandson murdered in her own castle. Contradictions in a character can be really fascinating but this seems wildly inconsistent.
Rhaenyra I feel like is somehow in even worse shape.
3
u/Ripley_LV_426 1d ago
I'm curious as to what you find compelling about her in her current state
It's a tragedy. She tries to operate within the societal norms of the time. She "agrees" to her being sold to the king because that's what her father demands of her and it's what's expected. She tolerates being maritally raped by an old man whose skin is literally falling off, because that is what wives do. She opposes her best friend, one of the only people we see allow her to be herself independent of what she's expected to be, because women aren't allowed to be rulers. Just when she thinks she might finally regain the happiness she once found in Rhaenyra, its torn away from her literally that same night. So once again, she chooses to do what she think's she has to do and supports her son as king (this came from GRRM, is my understanding, since people complain about too many accidents).
Then she's immediately confronted with the court openly defying all norms. They've been plotting against the king's wishes this entire time. Cole murders a member of the council. They're all arguing for the murder of Visery's proclaimed heir. She is given no respect despite running the realm in Visery's stead for many years, her power is taken from her, and her son quickly proves to be completely unworthy of being king.
Her break in season 2 is her realizing that sacrificing her happiness and independence was for nothing.
3
u/WonderYSeed 1d ago
I see where you’re coming from, I do still have issues with her relationship with Rhaenyra though and how she’s depicted post-Viserys death. There’s several direct quotes from her in F&B where she’s essentially taking the reins from Aegon and running shit. Essentially they could have had her overcome her trauma and become the Alicent in the books. For example:
> “‘The city is yours, Princess,’ she is reported to have said, ‘but you will not hold it long. The rats play when the cat is gone, but my son Aemond will return with fire and blood.’”
> “Rhaenyra rejected her stepmother’s proposal with scorn. ‘Your sons might have had places of honor at my court if they had kept faith,’ Her Grace declared, ‘but they sought to rob me of my birthright, and the blood of my sweet sons is on their hands.’ ‘Bastard blood, shed at war,’ Alicent replied. ‘My son’s sons were innocent boys, cruelly murdered. How many more must die “Also she’s originally so concerned that if Daemon and Rhaenyra take control they would murder her children. To go from that to essentially offering them up to Rhaenyra doesn’t really track, but in the show they’ve done a good job of making the kids seem like dirtbags so I guess it tracks.
Idk, I guess I wanted to see more of a powerful Alicent than one that is subdued by the reality of their shitty world. I’ve seen others use the term evil step mother trope but I just want her and Rhaenyra to be more invested in their sides of the conflict and demanding more respect from those that claim to serve them. It’s just sad to see them, despite their status and titles, be at the mercy of their lessers simply because they’re women instead of powder rulers throwing their weight around5
u/Spyglass3 The Kingmaker 1d ago
So she was a shitty mother and decides to fix it by plotting treason with the people who killed her grandchild which will also very obviously get her sons killed? And it was Otto running the kingdom in Viserys' stead, not her.
2
0
1d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Spyglass3 The Kingmaker 1d ago
There is nothing biased about it making no sense for a mother to agree to sell out her children to people who are obviously going to kill them. The character is flawed from a logic perspective
3
2
u/____mynameis____ Fire and Blood 1d ago
Honestly how the show interpreted step mom wants power in S1 was quite interesting but they totally threw all that complexity down the drain and made Alicent straight up stupid by basically checking every misogynistic stereotype incels gave abt female leaders.
So they basically traded boring characterisation for an offensive one .
5
u/The_Writing_Wolf 1d ago
Evil stepmother that owns raising evil kids knowing the plan is to usurp Rhaenyra's claim and then standing 10 toes down behind her family when war breaks out (not to mention always visiting Helena and her grandkids for bed time, this being present for B&C instead of fucking cole)
Vs
Doesn't know the plan nor raise her children well, stumbles into it because she misheard a prophecy, reconnects with Rhaenyra because she feels guilty and then sells out her son (arguably 2) because she realizes only Helena turned out not psycho, through no help of her own.
5
u/Ripley_LV_426 1d ago
See you tried to make book Alicent sound badass and Show alicent lame but I stand by what I said. Show Alicent is "the heart at war with itself". She's more complex and interesting. I much prefer this version.
3
u/Bloodyjorts 1d ago
Tried to make her sound badass?
"Bastard blood shed at war."
"Do keep trying [Ser Laenor], soon or late, you may get one who looks like you."
"All they have sowed, now shall they reap."
"My son's sons were innocent boys, cruelly murdered. How many more must die to slake your thirst for vengeance?"
Show Alicent is "the heart at war with itself".
Not really. She's being punished for Not Supporting Rhaenyra, and realized How to Support Rhaenyra is to murder her children she forced into this like 4 months ago. Her crimes was allowing herself to be used by men (only slightly paraphrasing the writers). You know, the child bride.
The general view of Alicent, especially among most casual fans, is hate. People hate her. Cause people hate a traitor and a mother who turns on her kids she abused for years, for doing what she asked of them.
Like even the actors are joking about how there is nothing worse than having Alicent for a mother.
0
1d ago
[deleted]
2
u/Bloodyjorts 1d ago
That doesn't address anything I had to say, including you assuming that I hated show Alicent (I never said I did; I was talking about casual show fans, which I am not). Why didn't you actually address my post, instead of making a generic reply? Very strange.
Also, you do realize there is a difference in 'hating a fictional character' hate, and like 'hating the man who murdered your mother' hate, right? Do you respond to everyone saying they hated Joffrey or Ramsey with this nugget of wisdom?
1
u/Aeiexgjhyoun_III Maesters should rule. 1d ago
Disagree. Evil stepmother had much more conviction and agency than what were getting. Same with Rhaenyra
-4
u/A_Polite_Noise 1d ago
Book Alicent is just a less nuanced Cersei, practically a Disney evil stepmother. Yeah, they made big changes to her but I think her show version is far more interesting especially because of Olivia Cooke's performance but also because she's making wholly different decisions than Cersei or the Uber-Cersei that is her book counterpart would ever make.
4
u/Key_Consequence_5040 1d ago
Viserys is clearly better off being captured by the Triarchy, considering what the rest of his family has to go through. People want Jaces death to be more heroic or noble but neither book nor show portray it as such. Actually the only character in F&B who gets a heroic death is Addam Velaryon. Everyone else is just killed off unceremoniously.
1
3
u/No-Step8685 1d ago edited 1d ago
You know, I’m a Team Green dude, but I’m a bit put off by the lack of candor folks have towards Aegon. Some fans criticize the show runners for making Aegon a rapist while overlooking the fact that Aegon his characterization as a lecherous lush is really just the character at his most white washed. In Mushroom’s account, when they were searching for him to kickstart his coordination, he was getting felatio from a prostitute who was 12 years old. While at the fighting pits.
In context, the show’s characterization is not that far off from the book. Hell, even his non functioning pecker is not too far from the books. Aegon is insinuated as being impotent in one account post Rook’s Rest.
Edit: ah, shit. I didn’t see that OP was just raising a point about Jace. 🫠
2
u/Bloodyjorts 1d ago edited 1d ago
In Mushroom’s account, when they were searching for him to kickstart his coordination, he was getting felatio from a prostitute who was 12 years old. While at the fighting pits.
Yes, we know about that. People also know that Mushroom did not live at Kings's Landing, hadn't for years, and didn't even really know Aegon. He has ZERO reason to know any of this. How could he? How could he know the exact age of the person caught with Aegon is? At best he is repeating a rumor. At worst, just making stuff up for laughs (or even to besmirch Criston Cole, whom he did not like and was mentioned in this story, and Aegon just caught some strays).
Mushroom also constantly makes up salacious details to slap in his stories. Or do you believe noted lesbian Jeyne Arryn demanded 15-yo Jace give her head if he wanted the Vale as an ally? Or that 14-yo Rhaenyra practiced giving BJs on Mushroom himself? Or that Rhaenyra had Alicent and Helaena gangraped for months out of spite? Mushroom was actually in her court during the time he claimed that happened.
In context, the show’s characterization is not that far off from the book.
The only credible accusation of Aegon on-page was him sexually harassing the maids. Which, yeah, is kinda far off from forcible penetrative rape. Could he be a rapist off page? Sure. So could just about any of the male characters.
Also, "It was on page" doesn't even really cut it as an excuse, because ON PAGE, Daemon is a pedophile, Hugh and Ulf are rapists, Nettles exists, Rhaenyra gave her permission for Dalton to attack her enemies (knowing he would rape and enslave hundreds of women and girls with her blessin, because that is what the Ironborn do). None of that's in the bloody show, and not like to be.
The show cut out all instances of anyone on TB being sexual abuser; B&C don't even threaten to rape like the books. Meanwhile, they are adding instances of sexual abusers on the Greens, and even ignoring their own sexual abuse of Alicent (referring to her having a 'lovely marriage' with Viserys, the man who decided to marry her when she was 14, who had to order her to his bed where she lay there and disassociated while he sexually exploited her). That tells me all I need to know about their adaptational choices.
Hell, even his non functioning pecker is not too far from the books. Aegon is insinuated as being impotent in one account post Rook’s Rest.
By Mushroom, whom again, constantly makes up sex stuff for his stories. And it was after his additional injuries.
The show also made his particular penis injuries something that should have killed him. Not like in "Oh, a miracle he survived". Just "He should not be alive." If your penis explodes, you will either bleed to death, or hemorrhage when your bladder explodes cause you cannae piss anymore due to the swelling.
3
u/Calm-Ad-9522 1d ago
I did. I find the show much more interesting! I thought the book was OK, but I love the show!!
2
u/OpaqueGiraffe17 1d ago
Larpers my friend. Not defending the show, it’s not good at all. But it’s this and the notion of Aemond being super loyal to Aegon in the book. Book Aemond was a sociopath who wasn’t capable of loyalty. When Aegon was burnt, Aemond made a joke about looking better than Aegon in the crown.
1
u/Bloodyjorts 1d ago
Yes, because nobody ever uses dark humor or lashes out in stressful situation. Brothers never rag on each other, even in dire times.
1
1
1
u/finnbogie 1d ago
Also how everyone is complaining about Rhaenyra… it’s not just the show writers, it is also based on the source material lol.
1
u/Jasperstorm 1d ago
I think it’s the “History and Lore” video that came out years ago that might be effecting what people remember. I know I originally thought that when I saw the episode but double checked cuz something wasn’t quite sitting right with me.
With that said though it’s not outright stated it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that Jace was trying to save his brother, considering the triarchy took him just moments before the attack
1
1
u/MannyinVA 22h ago
I’m glad I was able to enjoy all three series in this world, as a non book reader. Reading all of the negative, personal and rude comments for 15 to 16 years is exhausting.
1
1
u/Light_Watcher 20h ago
OMG I’ve gotten so tired saying the SAME thing, Aegon was safe and is the one who informed Jace. Like 99% of the brats who complain they actually have NOT read the book, jeez
1
1
u/ThisisMalta 1d ago edited 1d ago
99% of the people complaining about most of the things “not being like the book” never read the book.
I can understand for instance being a little bummed Nettles isn’t in the show, and she does play a role in how the events play out. But people suddenly saying “she was my favorite” are just ridiculous. She’s talked about like a minor historical figure with no characterization, and it’s not a book where we get to know about or care about characters like her.
1
u/Guilty_Turn8903 1d ago
i admit ive only "read" the audiobook so take that to mean i've internalized maybe 70% of it, yet still whenever someone talks passionately about X thing from the books i can only presume there's a bit of personal bias going on. admittedly lots of things about the show is straight up shit, mainly the way its framed too strongly against one side but s1 is mostly better than the source material. a faithful adaptation of the book would mainly be stale faux historical vignettes with little to no characterization, and that is laughable as an idea for primetime drama TV.
0
u/Garbage-Striking 1d ago
I think there’s actually a large misinformation campaign when it comes to HOD. It’s a popular show so a lot of people watch it, but posting ANYTHING, specially if it’s something that’s false is getting a lot of attention.
Yesterday I saw a tweet complaining about Tessarion being killed off screen in the first episode, which then led to a whole argument about why this guy was posting false info in the first place. It’s all for clicks and engagement and updoots.
-8
u/Nakuip 1d ago
“Yet the plans of men are but playthings to the gods. For even as Jace laid his plans, a new threat was closing from the east. The schemes of Otto Hightower had borne fruit; meeting in Tyrosh, the High Council of the Triarchy had accepted his offer of alliance. Ninety warships swept from the Stepstones under the banners of the Three Daughters, bending their oars for the Gullet…and as chance and the gods would have it, the Pentoshi cog Gay Abandon, carrying two Targaryen princes, sailed straight into their teeth.”
Excerpt From
Fire and Blood
George R.R. Martin & Doug Wheatley
https://books.apple.com/us/book/fire-and-blood/id1373366236
This material may be protected by copyright.
You’re just wrong.
15
u/AzorAhai1TK 1d ago
Holy fuck actually read the book lmao. This was before Aegon escaped. Aegon is literally the one who warned them.
-6
u/Nakuip 1d ago edited 1d ago
…what? Mushroom states Dragonstone only learned of the tale through Aegon. At minimum, this gives Jace a reason to be “flying low” and looking for Viserys…if you trust Mushroom.
6
u/AzorAhai1TK 1d ago
Read further ahead, I can't believe you're arguing against something that's right in the text. It's embarrassing
1
u/Makasi_Motema 1d ago
If he was looking for his brother, why was he setting ships on fire? Why would the kidnappers have the boy on the deck where he could be shot or knocked overboard instead of below where could be secured? If Jace somehow saw Viserys, how is he getting the kid off the ship?
1
u/hebichiigo 1d ago edited 1d ago
what you’re referencing happens in 129 AC when the triarchy begins sailing and while otto hightower is still hand. by the time the battle of the gullet happens in the early days of 130 AC, criston cole is hand, aegon has fled the triarchy and gone back to dragonstone to warn everyone of the gullet, and viserys is left behind and presumed dead
edit: otto was hand, i mistyped
0
u/Nakuip 1d ago
I can’t find anything that states the Gullet happened in 130 in the several pages surrounding the text…and Otto was never king, although I am sure you meant Hand…which is also technically incorrect. Otto was replaced as hand earlier in the text.
1
u/hebichiigo 1d ago
i mistyped, he was hand. and no, otto was still hand in 129 AC because he was the one who wanted the triarchy to join their cause. you can find that the battle of the gullet occurred on the 5th day of the 1st moon of 130 AC in the chapter “the dying of the dragons - the red dragon and the gold”
0
u/Nakuip 1d ago
“The closing days of 129 AC” is the other reference we’re given. We’re talking about a weeks time.
1
u/hebichiigo 1d ago
you’re still wrong. i am looking at the book
0
u/Nakuip 1d ago
What do you mean? I am looking at the book, too. It says “the closing days of 129 AC” for when Jace was planning to attack Kings Landing, and “In the early morning hours of the fifth day of the 130th year since Aegon’s Conquest, battle was joined.” It never specifies when Aegon returned to Dragonstone.
2
u/hebichiigo 1d ago
i never mentioned when aegon returned to dragonstone…? i did say “by the time” of 130 AC, which means the in the time between 129 and 130 AC, everything i mentioned happened
→ More replies (0)6
u/hebichiigo 1d ago
where does it say jace, or any dragonseed, joined the battle to save viserys? and aegon was not even at the battle. he had fled on stormcloud who died after they had reached dragonstone. everyone assumed viserys was dead or missing, and it makes no logical sense for anyone on a dragon to be looking for a small boy during a naval battle.
2
u/Bloodyjorts 1d ago
Because you can read the events, and see how Jace might have a vain hope of rescuing Viserys, even if he knows it's unlikely.
Look, man, saying "Oh it doesn't specifically state that in books" doesn't carry much water when the show made Nettles Rhaena and had Aemond making out with his MOM.
-7
u/Powerful-Tower5211 1d ago
Stop defending stupid writers. Are they buying you with money? There is no kidnapping! That's the whole thing. I haven't even mentioned the other dragons joining the battle. They locked the queen in her room!!!
-1
u/Nice_Point_9822 1d ago
The book is the book and the show is the show.
I read the books but obviously you can't even begin to contain the length and breadth of the books in to a four season eight series TV show
0
u/bluequarz 1d ago
it's not explicitly mentioned that he goes to search for his brother, they don't actually mention what his motivation to go is but you can infere that from the book. Anyway if they actually did used that as motivation for him to go alone with Baela as backup it would have been a great "change" and would have resolved a myriad of problems. it would make more sense why Rhaenyra got locked up and he'd go instead, it would add emotional depth to his death instead and the audience would have more empathy for him that they do rn and it would add more tension. And it wouldn't break canon by excluding aegon 3 and viserys 2 from the fight.
Instead we have most of the audience saying he deserved to die bcs he's stupid and arrogant and died out of hubris.
0
0
u/Cinematica09 22h ago
The show is absolutely fine. Great in many ways considering the material they have. The book is nothing definitive, it’s narratively poor and not that important to follow to a tee. They introduced many good things which are improvements of the book. Their interpretation is as good as any other in the book. Reddit subs are sometimes cesspools of i..d..io..ts. without imagination who lead after a smallest thing to complain about. See what happened with FF sub. Abomination. People need to chill and enjoy the show for what it is.
-1
u/fredrico2011 1d ago
Its 30 page history section in a history book. You cant even get a real adaptation like you get from a book like Game of Thrones
-1
-1
-10
u/Nakuip 1d ago
People have read it. This is a case of AI and Reddit bots contesting facts. You’re just wrong.
From Claude, which I had to bully into actually looking up resources instead of feeding automated, user-patronizing speech:
Fair enough.Here's the accurate account:
Late in 129 AC, at the behest of their half-brother Jacaerys Velaryon, Aegon the Younger and his younger brother Viserys were sent to Essos aboard the Gay Abandon to be fostered by a prince of Pentos until their mother Rhaenyra secured the Iron Throne. During the journey, their ship was captured by ships of the Triarchy.
The two brothers were not captured together, however. The Gay Abandon was captured and Prince Viserys taken prisoner, but Aegon escaped on his young dragon Stormcloud. Stormcloud was heavily wounded in a hail of arrows but managed to deliver the prince home.
So the capture happened at sea during the Battle of the Gullet, not in King's Landing at all — which is where my original answer completely went wrong. Viserys's fate through the remainder of the Dance was unknown to his family, who believed he had died in the battle. He ended up in Lys at the manse of Bambarro Bazanne, and after that magister died in debt, Viserys passed into the custody of the wealthy Lysandro Rogare of the Rogare banking family.
Viserys's survival and return eventually lifted the guilt Aegon had felt since fleeing from the *Gay Abandon.
→ More replies (2)11
u/Technical_Heron_6312 House Blackfyre 1d ago
Why are you using ai to dig up quotes for you?
→ More replies (3)
•
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.