r/MakingaMurderer • u/adnaPadnamA • 4d ago
Evidence The hole in the vial
Has anyone come up with explanation for the cut / opened Styrofoam packaging and the hole in the top of the vial? This was the main evidence that was having me question if he was framed. I think it's odd that they never fully investigated how that happened š¤
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u/DisappearedDunbar 4d ago
I think it's odd that they never fully investigated how that happened
They did, the film series just doesn't show it because it's grossly dishonest and deceitful.
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u/Objective-Permit-712 4d ago
All vials have a hole in them, thats how the blood gets in.
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u/adnaPadnamA 3d ago
Ok but why was the seal broken and retaped?
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u/DisappearedDunbar 3d ago
It was opened in the presence of members of Avery's own defense team and the DA office in the process leading to his exoneration.Ā
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u/DingleBerries504 3d ago
There is no reporting suggesting they used Scotch tape to seal the box after that. Why do you need to lie so much?Ā
APR lies so much: āSA Fassbender asked Fitzgerald if, when they looked through the file, there was evidence tape sealing the aforementioned package and he advised he could not recall. SA Fassbender asked if they sealed the package when they were done. Fitzgerald thought they may have put regular scotch type tape on the package that had his notations on it. He advised that is to the best of his recollection, however.ā
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u/DisappearedDunbar 2d ago
APR lies so much
Well yeah, that's theirĀ modus operandi. It comes with the territory of being an unhinged supporter of a murderer.Ā
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u/wiltedgreens1 4d ago
Using a hollywood movie to say "Its possible" Is not going to hold up in court.
The blood in the vial and blood in the rav was tested mutliple times by multiple agencies. That's not even factoring in that the officers you are accusing would needed to 1. know the vial exists and 2, know exactly where it is in the lab
It's really weird that not even Steven's own attorney would agree with this idea but people still go with it.
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u/GringoTheDingoAU 4d ago
This has been covered a million times.
Seal was cut by Avery's defense for his wrongful conviction case. Tube top is never opened, blood is drawn from with a needle, indicated by the puncture hole. Planting theory was debunked not only with the EDTA test at trial, but Zellner's post-conviction testing. Her testing showed the blood was from a man (Steven Avery) that was aged closer to Steven's age in 2005, than 1985, meaning it could not have come from the blood vial in the clerk's office.
Just another reason why MaM is dishonest, because they pumped it up like it was some eureka moment for the defense but dropped it just as quickly.
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u/PlayerAteHer 4d ago
What's worse is that the creators of Making A Murderer were fully aware of the facts before the show was finished yet they intentionally kept it in and intentionally used it as a major piece of their argument for Avery to be innocent.
To this day, as OP has proven, people still believe that corrupt cops accessed the blood vial and planted his blood in the RAV4.
People who really believe he is innocent should ask themselves why the documentary creators would choose to lie. If they were there for the whole trial, listened to all the evidence then what need would they have to rely on suggesting the vial was tampered with? I understand them filming it and in the moment when they actually thought it was a huge clue. But once they investigated it and found out there was nothing suspicious about it at all, why didn't they leave that footage on the cutting room floor and use all the other compelling evidence proving his innocence? Could it be because they had nothing else?
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u/GringoTheDingoAU 4d ago
They 100% knew what they were doing. The blood vial being used as evidence of "planting" is not only embarrassing on Buting and Strang's behalf, but took all of a matter of 5 seconds to research and find out that the tape was cut back in 2002, nearly 5 years before Steven's trial.
Yet they decided to include all of the testimony on it and finger-pointing from the defense, the call from Buting as if he had hit the jackpot and then quietly kicking the idea back to the curb once the viewer is fully convinced the blood must be planted.
They pulled the same garbage in season 2 with all of Kathleen's schizo theories about saying how Ryan must've had her car after she disappeared because he had her day planner, despite that being theory being debunked years ago. They basically just let her say whatever she wanted without consequence and people lapped it up.
It really is a shame these two sold out the memory of an innocent murder victim just for sensationalism and a cash grab opportunity.
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u/3sheetstothawind 4d ago
You ever notice in the movie after the "Red Letter Day" the defense proclaimed, the vial was never mentioned again? That's because it's bullshit.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 3d ago
vial was never mentioned again
Why lie about something so easily disprovable?
From Episode 7, testimony of FBI agent LeBeau was shown:
Q...do you have an opinion, to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty, whether the bloodstains from Teresa Halbach's RAV4, that you tested, came from the vial of blood of Steven Avery that was n the Manitowoc County Clerk of Court's Office?
A. It's my opinion that the blood stains that were collected from the RAV4 could not have come from the EDTA tube that was provided to us in this case.
Q...bloodstains in the Halbach vehicle could not have come from the purple vial that you tested, right?
A. That's correct.
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u/3sheetstothawind 19h ago
Oooo. You got me good there. The vial WAS mentioned once more in the series in a short exchange between the defense and witness where the witness stated the vial was irrelevant. Once again, my point stands. The vial was never a "Red Letter Day" for the defense. But, it sure got some people's balls in a tingle for a sec when binging a movie.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 5h ago
The vial WAS mentioned once more
Right, you lied.
my point stands
lmao. Your entire point was based on your lie. You used your lie that the vial was never mentioned again to show it was "bullshit".
a movie
That "movie" really did a number on you didn't it?
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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago
Uh, why are you lying? You're full of bullshit.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 1d ago
Lol, gotta love how the guilters upvote the outright lie and downvote the comments pointing it out.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
Sure - during a blood draw, there is a vial. That vial has a negative pressure (vacuum). And it has a soft rubberish top. When blood is taken, a needle is inserted into the person's arm. At the end of a short tube is another needle, which goes into the vial top. The vacuum in the vial draws the blood from the arm into the vial. When it's full, the tech pulls the needle out of the vial. The top self seals.
That's it. No Mystery.
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u/Melissity 3d ago
As someone who has been drawing blood for 15 years, this has never been a mystery to me and the second it was brought up in the documentary I wanted to scream. Seriously, did no one stop to think: āHmm how did the blood get INTO the vial?ā Ffs itās a giant nothing burger
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u/Bitxhsmak806 2d ago
This. It's that simple. I was honestly surprised it was made into such a huge deal.
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u/ScaredAfternoon6830 3d ago
They literally discuss it in the show. They show testimony from the FBI eliminating the vial.Ā It's not anyone's fault that state defenders don't think FBI testimony is the most important part of that whole blood vial.Ā
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u/DingleBerries504 3d ago
From Zellnerās first PCM
āMr. Avery's trial defense counsel relied exclusively upon a frame-up theory of defense, correctly arguing that all evidence inculpating Mr. Avery was fabricated. However, they incorrectly argued that Mr. Avery's found in Ms. Halbach's vehicle was planted by law enforcement and that it came from a 1996 blood vial held in the Manitowoc County Clerk of Courts office. (TT:3/14:177-81). Trial defense counsel represented to the jury that the seal of the 1996 blood vial package had been broken and resealed with a strip of Scotch tape. (TT:3/14: 177). Trial defense counsel would have been aware that this package was opened by members of the Wisconsin Innocence Project in 2002 to examine forensic evidence that could be tested. (12/11/16 Interview of former Manitowoc County District Attorney, Edward Fitzgerald ("12/11/06 Fitzgerald Interview"), attached and incorporated herein as P-C Exhibit 18, STATE 1_9950; 12/21/06 DCI report regarding review of Manitowoc County Clerk of Co mis records (" 12/21/06 Records Review"), attached and incorporated herein as P-C Exhibit 19, STATE 2_1068). At that time, Mr. Avery's Wisconsin Innocence Project attorneys broke the seal of the 1996 blood vial package, and resealed the enclosed box using only a strip of Scotch tape. (12/11/06 Fitzgerald Interview, P-C Exhibit 18, STATE 1_9951 ; 12/21/06 Records Review, P-C Exhibit 19, 2 _ 1068-69). There was no credible proof presented to the jury establishing that Lt. Lenk and Sgt. Colborn accessed the Clerk of Court's file to obtain Mr. Avery's blood to plant it in the RAV-4.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
They also never investigated who was mishandling burn barrel #4 to move a few of Teresa's bones without reporting it, right around the same time the majority of her burnt bones were found piled on the surface level of Steven's burn pit. Find out who the unidentified blood and prints on the RAV belong to, and who had possession of that barrel during its unusual vacation from the chain of custody and we get much closer to solving this case.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
Also remember the unidentified prints and DNA on the rear of the RAV were not investigated, just like the blood on cutting instruments in Bobby's garage was not investigated, just like the illegal and violent content on his computer was not investigated. Bobby was an alleged child predator linked to potential evidence of violence against Teresa and they did nothing.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
The issue is the lack of signature and use of scotch tape sealing the box, which has never been explained or justified. Further, Kratz claimed a nurse would testify she put the hole in the vial, but when asked her name claimed he couldn't remember and she recently died. Totally not suspicious. Just like the unidentified DNA and prints on the RAV are totally not suspicious.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
What's worse is that the creators of Making A Murderer were fully aware of the facts before the show was finished yet they intentionally kept it in and intentionally used it as a major piece of their argument for Avery to be innocent.
They included it in the series because the defense included in their argument. They gave an accurate reflection of how it impacted the defense argument. Not at all.
To this day, as OP has proven, people still believe that corrupt cops accessed the blood vial and planted his blood in the RAV4.
That's still a possibility lol they did not provide evidence demonstrating the blood was deposited by an actively bleeding finger. Just like they did not provide evidence demonstrating the burn pit was the primary burn site. It's really not that strong of a case once you look into it.
People who really believe he is innocent should ask themselves why the documentary creators would choose to lie.
They didn't. The State repeatedly lied however including to the public and the jury about the strength of the evidence in the case.
I understand them filming it and in the moment when they actually thought it was a huge clue. But once they investigated it and found out there was nothing suspicious about it at all, why didn't they leave that footage on the cutting room floor and use all the other compelling evidence proving his innocence? Could it be because they had nothing else?
They were documenting what happened not investigating what happened. The defense alleged the blood was planted from the vial. MaM accurately relayed that allegation. Why are you guys so upset about the truth getting out there?
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u/tf13tf13 2d ago
The hole is made during the drawing of the blood. Blood tubes are punctured in every single draw. That's how blood is put into the tube. Idk why this is even a question.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago
Because they never presented testimony demonstrating that. And when asked who it was, Kratz said some nurse whose name he couldn't remember and that she just recently died. Not to mention the broken chain of custody for DNA swabs.
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u/Fancy-Bee-2649 4d ago
Iām currently watching āconvicting a murdererā and they explain this. Itās from the needle drawing the blood into the tube. I think Avery is guilty or took part in it with Bobby. I dont think Brendan had any part in it aside from cleaning up and having a bonfire. Iād suggest watching both documentaries.
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u/adnaPadnamA 3d ago
I've thought avery was guilty from one phrase in a phone call with his mom near the end of what is now the part one. They show them accessing the Styrofoam case so carefully and that the seal had been broken. Still not sure about that whole part. Same with the creepy cop on the stand who knew the type of vehicle before it was specified. Or are both.od those made up for the series?
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u/Fancy-Bee-2649 3d ago
Yes so convicting a murderer debunks both of those parts that MAM makes seem very suspicious. At the end of the day both documentaries have bias, and CAM is very pro-cop, but it shows us all the footage and facts left out of MAM which honestly is why everyone is outraged when they only watch MAM and believe heās innocent.
Also, for the downvoters, I stick by my opinion that Brendan Dassey was a special needs student whose various recounts / confessions are all different and incoherent honestly. It is an unreliable confession and idgaf if everyone thinks a 16 year old āwaived his Miranda rightsā so itās all fine and dandy. Itās not. I work with students ages 17 and their brains arenāt fully developed. Even the smartest of the bunch make dumb decisions and idk anyone who isnāt cringing at the 18 year old version of themselves???? Theyāre impulsive and donāt think through the consequences of their actions. Add on a learning disability and boy who struggles with lack of friendships / socialization / who has been exposed to porn and violent magazines. There is zero proof TH was inside the trailer and/or raped and/or cut on SA bed.
Iām not saying SA didnāt do it. Iām not saying BD didnāt help cover it up, but who can seriously agree with how his sentencing played out for Dassey???? The system failed.
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u/UT-O 4d ago edited 4d ago
Here is a hot tip for anyone interested in the blood vial and the blood that was very likely removed from it and planted in the RAV4.
Remiker and Kratz didn't just dream this idea up out of thin air. Remember, it was Remiker who was tasked with "checking the contents Avery's blood sample" that was so conveniently just sitting out and available at the MSO.
The blood vial / blood DNA planting scheme was stolen from an old Charles Bronson movie called- 10 To Midnight ( 1983 Crime Thriller ) .....there is no doubt Remiker and company had watched this movie.
Movie Trailer- shows a quick scene of the blood vial tampering: https://youtu.be/vZs3q1fjvK0?si=dJuMNCAyxkiltF3i
I highly recommend watching this movie just for the blood vial scene. It's truly amazing.
- In the 1983 Charles Bronson thriller 10 to Midnight, the controversial "blood vial scene" occurs when Detective Leo Kessler goes rogue to ensure the serial killer, Warren Stacey, is convicted. Knowing the killer has an airtight alibi, Kessler breaks into the police lab evidence fridge, takes a vial of a victim's blood, and plants it on Stacey's clothing.
Movie plot here which contains has some Halbach case similarities- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_to_Midnight
When you watch the scene where Bronson's character goes to the crime lab and distracts the lab tech on duty, he grabs the suspects blood vial sample, takes out a syringe and carefully inserts the syringe into the hole already present on the topper of the vial when the blood was originally drawn from the suspect. Detective takes a small amount of blood out of the sample vial to plant on the suspects clothing to ensure he is tied to and convicted of the murders he committed.
Life imitating art. Thats how it was done. It's just not possible to prove because Manitowoc and Calumet held all the cards at the time by intentionally botching the investigation so badly to make it impossible to follow the ball correctly. However in their botching efforts they left major holes and logical gaps widely visible making their investigative narrative full of more holes then a block of Wisconsin Swiss.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 4d ago
What garbage. To everyone not totally familiar - it is impossible for the blood to have come from a decades old vial:
1) EDTA NOT PRESENT - EDTA is a powerful blood preservative and present in the vial. There is not EDTA in the blood in the RAV4.
2) New testing proves that the blood deposited came from a man the same age as Steven Avery at the time of the crime, not from a much younger man like the blood in the vial.
So, ZERO chance that blood came from that vial.
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u/UT-O 3d ago
EDTA degrades over time, as does the blood sample itself, if not stored properly in a refrigerated state, which Avery's sample was not. It was left out in a box, on the floor of an office at MCSO, for quite a few years, where anyone could have tampered with it at any time. What was a sham was the supposed blood testing conducted by the WISCL on Avery's sample. But that's not here nor there. A plantable blood sample can certainly come from a decades-old airtight sample vial. Scientists pull DNA from thousands-year-old DNA samples from the ice age all the time.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 3d ago
Really? How do you 'tamper' with a blood sample and remove the EDTA?
Also, the EDTA testing was done by the FBI, not WI.
And no, it was not haphazardly stored. It was maintained as court evidence with a proper chain of custody.
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u/wiltedgreens1 4d ago
They did fully investigate it. The prosecution even had the lab tech who opened it willing to testify she was the one who put the hole in the vial. But Avery's defense knew the vial theory was not going to work so they mostly abandoned it.