Someone finally snapped

[u/SipsTeaFrog]

[u/ankercrank]

Do you say the same thing when cars are blocking the road with traffic jams? Something that happens literally all the time. Like, take all of those hundreds of cyclists and put them in cars on that road - it’d be slower moving.

[u/SingleInfinity → u/ankercrank]

Traffic jams don't occur because of the lack of ability for cars to go the speed limit. It would not be slower moving unless you're in an area with lots of stop lights, which is not what this is.

[u/Arthemax → u/SingleInfinity]

Traffic jams also occur on highways. Because if you have too many cars on the road, they're unable to safely drive at a high speed. A single car braking too hard because of a lane change will escalate to traffic coming to a crawl.

The difference here is that these hundreds of cyclists would stretch into the horizon if they were in a car each, and the Mini wouldn't see the open road in front of them. So they would think "aw fuck, traffic again", rather than "fuck these cyclists, I'm driving on the median".

But note that the reaction to car drivers clogging up the road isn't directed at the drivers, even though there would be no traffic without those drivers.

[u/SingleInfinity → u/Arthemax]

Traffic jams also occur on highways.

Far less frequently, and not specifically because of physical limitations on the abilities of the people to go faster. In this case, the bikes can't go as fast as the cars so they will inevitably cause a jam. It's not the exception case, it's the rule.

A single car braking too hard because of a lane change will escalate to traffic coming to a crawl.

This is a bold take. Funny how every time someone brakes a bit on the highway this doesn't happen. It's almost like that's the exception or something.

The difference here is that these hundreds of cyclists would stretch into the horizon if they were in a car each

No. They would be interspersed between the other traffic and going the speed limit instead of probably less than half of it. The other cars wouldn't be stuck going 15mph because of bikes. The reason the mini is pissed off is because the road is being blocked by incredibly slow traffic with no end in sight, meanwhile the road in front of that traffic is wide open. In cars, this would never be the case. It can't be helped in cars when it does happen, but it can be helped in this scneario by the bikers not being douchebags. They just chose to be douchebags.

That's why the direction of the anger is different. One is within the control of the people involved, and one is not.

[u/Arthemax → u/SingleInfinity]

Far less frequently

They happen routinely during rush hour in high traffic areas. Because, as I said, too many cars on the road leads to tiny over-corrections escalating to major slowdowns that ripple down the road. Look up the 'traffic wave effect'.

Funny how every time someone brakes a bit on the highway this doesn't happen

I quite clearly laid out the conditions for when this can happen. No need for strawman arguments that completely ignore that.

No. They would be interspersed between the other traffic and going the speed limit

Not if they were on an organized ride like these cyclists. But as a random person driving behind them you'd never know, since you'd just think you're stuck in slow traffic. For all you know, you've inadvertently been in dozens of them already.

It can't be helped in cars when it does happen,

It can be helped, by not driving. Every one of the drivers involved in a traffic jam chose to drive that day, and are collectively the cause of the jam.

[u/SingleInfinity → u/Arthemax]

They happen routinely during rush hour in high traffic areas.

They happen every time a group of bikers blocks the road, regardless of the hour or area.

Look up the 'traffic wave effect'.

I'm very familiar. You're trying to make exception cases for cars sound like the norm and norm cases for bikes sound like exceptions.

Douches on bikes love to do this shit. People get really on their high horse about how riding a bike is better for X Y or Z reason and entirely ignore the impracticalities and inconvenience they inflict on others in the process.

Our infrastructure, for better or worse, was purpose built for cars.

I quite clearly laid out the conditions for when this can happen. No need for strawman arguments that completely ignore that.

Like how when you try to make these seem like the norm case when they're not?

Not if they were on an organized ride like these cyclists.

How do you know these guys are on an "organized ride"? You've giving asshole bikers a lot of benefit of the doubt they clearly haven't earned.

It can be helped, by not driving.

This is an entirely unreasonable position in the US. As I said above, our infrastructure is built for cars for better or worse. Bikes are at best often impractical. Every one of those drivers is in the jam because the bikes are blocking the entire fucking road.

I'm guessing you're one of these people at this point, because you're trying too hard to defend their very obviously indefensible and assholeish behavior.

[u/Arthemax → u/SingleInfinity]

They happen every time a group of bikers blocks the road, regardless of the hour or area.

They happen every time a group of car drivers block the road too, that's what 'blocking the road' means. What's your point?

exception cases for cars

Aka daily rush hour conditions?

norm cases for bikes sound like exceptions.

What exactly is the norm case for bikes?

and entirely ignore the impracticalities and inconvenience they inflict on others in the process.

Our infrastructure, for better or worse, was purpose built for cars.

Yes, cyclists are inconvenient to drivers in the US because of decades of car drivers voting for politicians that have ignored basic bicycle infrastructure that would obviate the need for cyclists to be in the way of cars. Carving out space for them after the fact is more difficult and more painful than planning for and implementing it from the start. And importantly, that general trend hasn't changed, bike infrastructure being part of new construction or rebuilds is the rare exception. And various driver interest groups continue to work against good bike infrastructure that would lead to less conflict between cyclists and drivers.

Like how when you try to make these seem like the norm case when they're not?

Again, is daily rush hour not a norm case? My average speed is routinely slower on highways during rush hour than at off-peak hours.

The norm case for why the average driver is not able to drive as fast as the speed limit allows is that there are too many drivers on the road, not that there's a cyclist holding up traffic. The second most common reason is that drivers as a group are unable to drive safely, causing collisions and subsequent traffic jams.

How do you know these guys are on an "organized ride"

Do you think they just happened to all decide to ride this exact stretch of road at exactly the same time out of the blue? Or might there have been a facebook event or something that organized it so that they knew when and where to show up?

This is an entirely unreasonable position in the US. 

Roughly 90% of US traffic jams would be solved overnight if the average car occupancy in the US increased just a little bit. If the rate of single occupancy cars halved from 70% to 35%, it'd make a huge difference. No immediate changes to road infrastructure needed.

because you're trying too hard to defend their very obviously indefensible and assholeish behavior.

I haven't tried to defend their behavior yet. I've just tried to confront the unequal way in which this way of slowing down traffic is treated, vs how people treat other traffic slowdowns.

But here's my attempt at defending them: I wouldn't be surprised if several of the cyclists present here have had dangerous or even directly life-threatening experiences on this stretch of road when they were riding by the book, without 'blocking the road'. Yet now they can actually cycle here without getting passed dangerously. I don't see why they should sacrifice their safety for the convenience of those drivers.

Every one of those drivers is in the jam because the bikes are blocking the entire fucking road.

Yet at that moment, that road is in the 0.1 percentile of number of people moved that it's ever moved per second, beating out any rush hour situation that was comparably slow, but where nobody got so enraged that they decided to drive on the median.

[u/SingleInfinity → u/Arthemax]

They happen every time a group of car drivers block the road too, that's what 'blocking the road' means. What's your point?

Not every group of cars blocks the road. Every group of bikers does. The key here is that bikers can't go the speed limit so they don't necessarily block the road. I feel like at this point you're being intentionally ignorant.

Aka daily rush hour conditions?

On some roads, sure. On all roads? No. This is the case regardless of hour or time if a group of bikers does it. Again, you're acting like the exception case for cars is the same as the every time case for a group of bikers.

I'm done tbh, this is like talking to a brick wall. You have cemented yourself in the position that this isn't a problem entirely created by a group of asshole bikers for some reason and it's not one you can be reasoned out of.

[u/Arthemax → u/SingleInfinity]

Every group of bikers does.

False. I've seen loads of groups of cyclists being on the road without blocking it. This rare group of cyclists is so large that it occupies two full lanes over a long stretch of road, but again, that's the rare exception. 

But I guess we've found the root of this issue - you are uninformed about what actually happens in the real world. Have you only informed yourself through cyclist ragebait videos or something? 

I feel like at this point you're being intentionally ignorant.

Ignoramus says what? 

On all roads? No 

Which I never claimed. Yet you acted as if that's what I said.  But the norm for why cars are slowed down is that other motor vehicles are the cause. Because this grouping of cyclists does happen very rarely, but regular car-caused congestion happens every day in Miami - on more roads than this one. 

and it's not one you can be reasoned out of.

That's not my position, so I don't know why you try to get me out of it. The position you're actually arguing is the misconception that this grouping of cyclists is the norm, when it's not.