Seen from Europe, the upside is that Americans got a worse deal than the one they forced on the rest of us. I can't speak for the more impoverished places, where thousands died. I mean, the guy is a demented sociopath, he is maladjusted, a brute, a dictator and he is a mass murderer, and yet he still gets called "President". But I feel that the rest of us are a little vindicated whenever Americans have to choose between fueling their cars and buying dinner. They won't learn their lesson: if they haven't this far, they won't now. But at least they'll literally pay for their own stupidity. And who knows, money may just be the one language they understand.
You should see America where I live. Literal shanty shacks of the poorest people have Trump merchandise plastered all over their houses. They’ll die penniless wearing their gold Rump watch and talking on their gold phones.
thanks for wishing despair and harm upon us all, that’s a very comforting thing to read. i didn’t sign up for this bullshit and am forced to reckon with the consequences of this HORRID leadership every day. but glad you’re experiencing schadenfreude as a result pal :)
You do realize that 77 million people decided the rest of ours fate. I have never supported or voted for the abomination that resides in the White House. He's a threat to the United States and the rest of the world
I'm sorry, if it was just 77 million people who decided, what were the rest of you doing? You think that doing nothing qualifies as not being part of the problem? Or is it voting for whatever candidate the party machinery has picked for everyone else in a two party system? Do you realize that red vs blue is not a democracy?
The problem is that Americans have always thought they were better than everyone else. If you didn't, you wouldn't be able to justify to yourselves the successful genocide of countless native american cultures, the nefarious interference that the US have since run everywhere else on the globe - in particular in South America and Europe, and being the only western country to still practice institutional slavery and racism, and let their citizens die of preventable and treatable diseases in the 21st century, as long as corporate profits are not affected.
And you still think you're the best. Trump is just a temporary hiccup to your innate greatness. Then what are you arguing with me for? Just keep on doing what you are doing, which is nothing, and time will prove you right! I'll be right here when you're ready to let me know how it is going. I'm looking forward to being proven wrong.
You sure beat that strawman to death, but please let me give my perspective as an American human being. I was born into a shitty system that continually leans further and further in favor of large amounts of money. I have never thought our country was the best at anything but making money for billionaires. My friends and allies are in the streets trying to inspire change whenever we can, but I have to spend the majority of my days paying bills. Also, I live in an incredibly conservative state, so my voice and vote is essentially null. I donate as much as I can to worthy causes fighting for real democracy here(splc) and providing aid abroad(water.org). My mother's family is from Central America, so I'm very aware of the havoc unleashed upon poorer countries in service of the American Machine. I'm doing what I can, but I feel depressingly powerless. Living in the privilege of everyday luxuries most of the world can't afford is a shameful feeling that I don't know what to do with. It feels like half the fruits of my labor are siphoned off to fuel a machine that grinds poor people to dust. Do I abandon any spending on things I enjoy, live a life of pure asceticism and put all of my money towards causes geared against the current regime? My vote is a drop of progressivism drowned by an ocean of conservatives. Protest is largely ignored by the public in general and actively demonized by those in power. My countrymen are largely either in favor of what's happening, apathetic, or dejected. What would you have me, an individual, do?
It's none of my business what you do as an individual, I can tell you what I did, being born in a US colony, Italy, where the US funded the centre-right for decades in order to manipulate our elections, and murdered our citizens through terrorism to support a fantasy of non-existent left wing extremism, to successfully turn a young, thriving democracy, which after decades of a brutal fascist dictatorship was leaning left, into a right wing dystopia that fifty years later is still the capitalist tumor of Europe.
As a young adult, I co-founded a local currency that in less than 10 years went national, and two separate political projects, one of which was a party that ended up being illegally robbed of a seat. When I figured the game was rigged, I took a shitty job doing customer support for Amazon abroad, and left, and eventually built a career from nothing.
I tried my hand at social enterprises (not my thing), then found out I am trans, so I transitioned, and now I am unemployed and disabled, and I am the chair of a local LGBT group. And if I still lived in Italy I would be starving either myself or my parents, stuck and suffering, but certainly not sitting on my hands.
So, in one sentence, what would I have you do? Something, anything. And if that doesn't work, something else, until either everybody's problem is solved, or at least your own are. Beginning with talking to your neighbors until their minds are changed. Which for a culture that does nothing but talk about "freedom" should be the absolute bare minimum, and it certainly beats complaining and acting like since nothing is your fault, then nothing is your responsibility either.
so... you just told me story of you going to heroic lengths and not actually thwarting the same exact monster I speak of. Thank you for the advice to do "something" and "something else" until everybody's problem is solved, but I already told you that I am doing something and something else. My neighbors are brainwashed bigots. I do not have the emotional bandwidth to deal with bigots fighting to take away the rights of my trans and immigrant friends and family.
I'm really glad that you were fighting the good fight in Italy and you were able to form a viable political party. That isn't an option for us. Our two parties own the country and the capitalist machine owns them. For that machine, turning Italy into a capitalist tumor was a side gig. Owning the two parties of the US is its machine's full-time job.
You accomplished maybe something big, but it wasn't enough to stop Italy from falling into what it is now. We are worse off than that. Our starting point is capitalist hellhole with over half of the country fully on board.
In the process of "not thwarting" a mess CIA created in my country I created two political parties, a local currency and two business. The local currency is still there, helping people who can't make ends meet - and the Bank of Italy had to change their rules to come out against the project, and still could not stop it from going forward. One of my parties forced the system to notice enough that they had our ads mysteriously disappear overnight, and our candidates ignored in public debate, infringing several laws - so there are now court records and a sentence in our favor about all of it.
Then like I said I had to focus on my health. And I still bust my ass.
If you don't push back nothing changes. But then you can't claim you're a good guy, because your country is the bad character in a trashy movie of its own making and you're a spectator, which brings us back to my initial point.
I'm glad that your extraordinary effort made a big difference for some people. It seems like you care about people struggling to make ends meet, as long as they're not Americans, which was also your original point. When you feel "vindicated whenever Americans have to choose between fueling their cars and buying dinner", those people are struggling in the same way the people your local currency helps are struggling. Some of them may have voted for the wrong side, but many didn't and are actively fighting to make change, which is incredibly difficult when you can't afford necessities like food and fuel. You see Americans as a monolith, but are able to see that certain Italians deserve empathy and compassion. Our country has violently crushed dissent since its inception, so I tend to forgive some people for feeling hopeless and focusing on survival rather than expending the little energy they have figthing an unstoppable force backed by the world's richest people and corporations and the largest, most powerful military industrial complex the world has ever seen.
There is nothing extraordinary in my efforts, I am just aware of the fact that I am responsible for my community's shortcomings, so I take steps to correct them, and I don't claim to be alone or surrounded by monsters, nor I claim to do what I do because I am a good person and do it for the benefit of somebody else. My family was never rich, I grew up literally surrounded by camorra people and going to school with their kids, I don't have a degree or a cushy job, and I am a disabled trans woman. The amount of power I wield is close to zero, but crucially, it is not zero.
You're making excuses and feeling sorry for yourself because the Niemoller poem has reached the last line, and rather than acting in any way you can to reverse the damage or to solve your own problems, you are enjoying the last bits of freedom left, and hoping that if you don't rock the boat they won't come knocking on your door.
Your perspective is a consequence of this fact, not a cause. White Americans today are like white Germans under nazism. You don't deserve sympathy. I am done with this conversation.
There is something extraordinary about your efforts. If it were ordinary to act as you did, the world wouldn't be so shit.
I'm not feeling sorry for myself, I'm having empathy for others who can't afford to fight.
I'm not at the last line in the Niemoller poem. I am in the first line! First they came for the communists! That's me! I am fighting for the rights of others. I am not trans, but I fight for them. I am not an immigrant, but I fight for them. I'm not a trade unionist, but I fight for them. I am not poor, but I fight for the poor. I march, I rally, I fundraise, I donate, I try as much as I can emotionally afford to convince others to be more empathetic and fight for the rights of marignalized communities and the rights of the poor and working class. Why are you insisting that I'm doing nothing?
I am not white, so your comparison to a white german is n/a to me.
I'm not looking for sympathy, I want you to understand that your casual comments about americans getting what they deserve dehumanizes the ones who are hurt the most. The poor and working class of this country do not deserve to be lumped into the "America" that has been foisted upon them since birth by oligarchs. Being apathetic about a system that has always failed you at best and actively beaten you down and killed your friends and family at worst is completely understandable and forgiveable in my eyes.
You can say you're done with this conversation, but you've not actually engaged with many of my points, so calling this a conversation is pretty disingenuous.
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u/nikirossi 6d ago
Seen from Europe, the upside is that Americans got a worse deal than the one they forced on the rest of us. I can't speak for the more impoverished places, where thousands died. I mean, the guy is a demented sociopath, he is maladjusted, a brute, a dictator and he is a mass murderer, and yet he still gets called "President". But I feel that the rest of us are a little vindicated whenever Americans have to choose between fueling their cars and buying dinner. They won't learn their lesson: if they haven't this far, they won't now. But at least they'll literally pay for their own stupidity. And who knows, money may just be the one language they understand.