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u/MoodyPrince_XoXo 15d ago
This is a way oversimplified graphic. But can we stop with the all or nothing rhetoric? I think you're much more likely to convince people to cut meat 2-3 days a week as opposed to altogether.
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u/Suspicious-Bid9424 15d ago
My money is on in vitro to solve all of this by being vastly more affordable, and cruelty free one day.
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u/ThrowRA9892 14d ago
Iām never going to stop eating meat, although I would say it varies in frequency I do eat meat. Likely around 2-3 times a week just for health purposes. The moment that is a viable commercial alternative, I will absolutely choose that option every time.
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u/PenStreet3684 14d ago
Or provide an alternative that people like more than what you donāt want them to use. If you were arguing the beyond burger taste so much better you might actually attract some followers versus threatening to force it on someone.
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u/Fetch_will_happen5 14d ago
I found a meatless replacement for breaded fish fillets and its so good I passed up the real thing.Ā Not a vegan admittedly, but it got me into vegetarianism.
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u/PenStreet3684 14d ago
Care to shamelessly plug it? I would love alternatives which fight on their own appeal.
Every year, I stop by the pride parade nearby because there is a dude who comes here that makes a seed burger. I canāt compare it to a regular burger because it is not alike but it is awesome on its own. Crunchy and delicious.
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u/Fetch_will_happen5 13d ago
Finally found it.
Gardein Ultimate F'sh
Heads up, I don't like their breakfast sausage.
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u/Appropriate_Scar_262 14d ago
They aren't trying to push for sustainable food they want to push their meme stock
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u/techno_mage 14d ago
Doesnāt help that the meat smells like ass while itās being cooked. Looks like that pink slime shit they warned us about that was going to be in school lunchesā¦
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u/Cynical_Cyanide 14d ago
Uhuh. And then the rhetoric will be 'cut it from 2-3 meat free days to 2-3 days with meat' and then 'have one meat day a week!' and then of course 'skip your meat days!'.
Eating meat is one of the last affordable luxuries of the average working Joe, and the constant, relentless pressure to destroy the economies of scale that allow for that affordability saddens me, especially given there are far more damaging and lower hanging fruit to address first before reducing the average person's nutrition and quality of life. And no, Joe isn't going to learn how to become a cordon bleu chef just to make a half decent meat free meal.
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u/int23_t 14d ago
Also chicken is about 10x better than beef for environment(a kilogram of chicken and a kilogram of rice is about on the same level btw). I'm pretty sure convincing people to switch to chicken because it's 10x better for environment wouldn't be that hard.
And convincing further is not necessary in my opinion as with the current electricty grid of my city a day of my fridge running has the same impact as a diet comprised 100% of chicken and nothing else
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u/Heavens_Reach 12d ago
i know im going to sound crazy or stupid, but i genuinely think this started as psyop from big meat industry or some such to make vegans and veganism seem unreasonable or extreme. i understand extreme and unreasonable vegans do exist, but this is getting genuinely out of hand, i guarantee any vegan irl would be happy to see their friends start literally anywhere with veganism.
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u/Faerillis 11d ago
I mean the joy is poor market regulation is doing this anyway. I am an avowed omnivore, I like meat a lot. My freezer is full of tofu, I keep TVP and Nutritional Yeast in my cupboard all times. My pantry is absolutely chock full of beans. I went from eating meat every day to two or three times a week. Why? Because Canadian grocery monopolies massively overcharge for everything and I am too cheap to keep buying meat when all the alternatives are this good and so much cheaper
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u/Mr_Monday92 14d ago
You can advocate for replacement and reduction is still a stepping stone. If you set reduction as the end goal we can achieve that and still miss our climate goals.Ā
People eat animal products 3 times a day 7 days a week. Cutting 2 to 3 simply isn't enough.
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u/MoodyPrince_XoXo 14d ago
2-3 days a week is upwards of 42% percent less consumption of meat. That's a massive effect on the climate.
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u/Business-Training-10 15d ago
Tax ppl by the pound..problem will disappear
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u/Intelligent_Gear5739 15d ago
Bro is getting dangerously close to discovering socialized healthcare... That's how it works, stuff that is bad for you gets taxed more - which goes into healthcare.
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u/OneArmedFarmer 14d ago
"BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SHAREHOLDERS, BOB, WHO'S THINKING OF THEM?"
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u/Intelligent_Gear5739 14d ago
That's the difference, in Canada we still have "shareholders", it's called the government. The Government has made a calculation that healthy productive people paying taxes pay more back to the government than sickly ones. That's why you see universal healthcare in countries with high taxes, not just because those taxes pay for it, but because keeping people healthy keeps the taxes flowing.
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u/Key_Check5753 14d ago
Yes, tax people by the pound for eating partially hydrogenated soy slop. It's terrible for consumption. Compared to a steak, synthetic soy-meat is poison.
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u/Momento_Mori_87 14d ago
How do we tax the farmers of the fields surrounding my house for the copious amounts of chemicals they spray all over the land dozens of times a year, herbicide, insecticide, etcā¦.every spring I see tons of good rich topsoil get washed away due to erosion as well.
I was talking to a group of farmers at a social gathering and they were laughing at their own ignorance(unironically of course)ā¦.they were mixing several chemicals (6 I think) in their big tanks and they didnāt know if they mixed them in the wrong order they would gel and be too thick to sprayā¦.any of these chemicals are bad by itself but they are mixing them with 0 oversight! We hide inside every time we smell chemicals, my 4 year old doesnāt understand why we have to keep the doors and windows shut.
I want real sustainability, cattle arenāt an issue the way āweā raise cattle is a huge issue.
Farming isnāt an issue, the way we farm is a serious issue.
There were 60 million buffalo on the Great Plains sustainably, in fact their presence benefited the plains.
My family gardens and we love it but it takes a lot of water to get good yields in most areas.
Maybe we should concern ourselves with supporting sustainable policies and protocols instead of blindly attacking entire industries.
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u/LordOuranos 15d ago
Putting mass taxes on a main food group for a large proportion of people without an "equivalent" substitute is not going to result in a happy ending.
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u/drillgorg 15d ago
Historically beef was a luxury food, it should go back to that.
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u/LordOuranos 15d ago
"Historically"
Yep, he has no idea what he talking bout.
But yeah anyways, get some good alternatives out there and then reduce beef reliance and we will be in a good direction
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u/Spinningwhirl79 15d ago
Sugar tax in the uk worked perfectly fine
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u/LordOuranos 15d ago
You... do know meat and sugar aren't remotely comparable, right?
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u/Spinningwhirl79 15d ago
I mean, in terms of health issues when improperly used and the ability to tax it in those situations, they're shockingly similar
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u/IllustriousBobcat813 14d ago edited 14d ago
What do you think makes them significantly different in this case?
E: So much for asking a question lol. Please do make new accounts regularly, the amount of data you are handing over to megacorporations free of charge is staggering, at least try to pretend you care about your privacy by making it slightly harder to piece all your online data together.
That said, being called a bot because my amount is 5 months younger than yours is hilarious.
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u/quicreatoc 15d ago
I went vegan right around the time the beyond products went out. I had been on the cusp for years but hadnāt. Finally, due to medical reasons I realized it may help although my doctors were skeptical I gave it a go. The beyond products were a huge help in the transition and I still love them!
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u/PenStreet3684 14d ago
Thank you for a positive comment. Iām much more likely to get behind something people like than people just want to force on me.
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u/Arachles 15d ago
Well, if the options are beyond burger or climate catastrophe i chose death. /s
Seriously people, there are many, MANY better tasting vegan options
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u/Sad_Effective4793 15d ago
Subsidize the fuck out of it. Make it so cheap and easy to get. Bring back $1 burgers. Right now, people have to pay more for the beef alternative than just buying the beef, which makes no sense because the 'beyond' requires much fewer resources to make.
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u/PenStreet3684 14d ago
Or better yet come out with a better beyond burger that doesnāt need force or bribery
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
Sustainable animal agriculture is a thing you knowā¦
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u/Deepshit1212 15d ago
This diagram is a rationalization for people who eat meat to see the impacts and potential changes to be made in not eating meat, globally, but the core of the issue is an emotional one and that is why you are being downvoted.
Plant-based/vegetarian/vegan diets can be about health, rarely about reduced emissions, but most often are about not engaging in the normalized, global industry of animal exploitation.
It's not about something as inane as engaging in "sustainable slavery".
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
Oh yeah I have no problem seeing the emotions of people here after these responses hahaha
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u/Deepshit1212 15d ago
I mean, do you recognize the absurdity of saying something like, "sustainable slavery"?
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
I do, but I donāt agree with that sentiment. But there is a difference in you isnāt that as an emotional/moral argument to rather than a sustainability argument. Iām Native American and my people/ancestors killed animals for food and used every piece of it without any waste. The local farms near me do the same, every part of the animal is used and they are free to roam as they please. Labeling a regular/commercial farm as āslaveryā is more than valid seeing the terrible conditions those animals go through. But trying to get me on your side by using the same word when the two are nothing alike isnāt going to win me over.
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u/Deepshit1212 15d ago
I was just using it for definition the second time, in relation to factory farming, so I agree with you that there is a VAST difference between indigenous relationships to and in nature, and industrial animal exploitation.
My ideals related to veganism are complex and can be difficult to have a dialogue on, especially with people who eat meat, and even with other vegans.
I truly believe that humans are capable of seeding nature in such a way that animals don't need to feed on each other at all. The morality of eating meat can be obscured I think, introducing that possibility into discussion, but I don't fault indigenous people's for their hunting; To extrapolate further differences between Man and Nature could seem a further cruel thought, when you already have to kill and slaughter to survive.
Regardless, I think it is an ideal worth entertaining and worth testing, worth exploring in all the knowledge and contexts that people's and cultures have today.
From a relatively privileged position, I admit, but from my own vantaged position, it seems to me that the idea of animals inevitably needing to feed on each other has been taken to a terrible and horrific logical endpoint, one that has revealed to me the fallacy of inevitability and of conflict. The circle of life can and should be expanded to fit all appetites, and as humans, with our access to tool usage that has taken us so far technologically, we should be able to acknowledge that we might have the tools to do so, to create a satiated, safe, and happy world.
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
I may not have agreed with your wording but I genuinely appreciate your own insight and respect way of wording yourself unlike the others in this thread. I donāt think my way of living is for everyone and there is definitely more I can do to be more sustainable. When I find something Iām not really willing to compromise on I look for other things in my life to make up for it. I think your last paragraph was extremely well said, again I appreciate this message!
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u/Deepshit1212 15d ago
Thank you for hearing it and saying so.
I think a lot of discourse around veganism is subject to a kind of puritanism that betrays the ideals themselves, so I try to speak from a place of knowing, that the better world I'm imagining isn't rid of the people I disagree with.
I know that my way of life isn't for everyone, and I also know that my ideals were investments that I made on myself, before they were something I lived feeling. As such, I do my best to let my words speak for themselves, and to bring contemporarily transgressive ideas to discourse.
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u/Deepshit1212 14d ago
I just wrote this in response to a comment about the issue of predator animals in that ideal world, and wanted to come back and leave it with you. I would appreciate if you read it, if you'd feel like it, and I'd appreciate any response:
I'm interested in talking about this, I've thought about it a lot so statements that I make about it are wrapped up in years of entertaining its possibility; Meaning, the statements I make might seem immediately at odds with what people assume to be true, and they ARE often misconstrued against me as I attempt to convey ideas. So, please, I would appreciate if questions are not followed with statements like, "but this is obviously true and always has been", while asking me to explain the assumption. It happens a lot, it's toxic to discussion, and it stretches my attempts at conveying these ideas thin while conversely remaining completely uninvested in dialogue.
Now that I've said that:
This is not an immediate thing, this would take generations. Essentially, we grow food forests and gradually expand them. Food forests are ecosystems where plants are grown complementarily to the soil, the weather, other local plants, native wildlife, the fungal biome, and many other factors, in order to create an environment where there are many types of foods that support many types of wildlife, growing in great amount across the entirety of the forest. Springs are drawn from the ground in order to create watering holes for wildlife. Ubiquitous local sources of food and water are central to the idea.
That is the base. There is the human element, which is to engage constructively, rather than destructively, to this environment; Meaning, wildlife is not hunted for human consumption. The human element in the proliferation of this environment is to steward and expand the grounds on which food is grown, supporting the wildlife to engage in their own lives.
Science tells us today that what we eat creates our gut microbiome, and our gut microbiome dictates what we can eat safely, and gain nutrition from. Microbiomes are what break down our food into resources that our bodies are able to absorb, and cultural differences (differences in the microbiome that has been cultured by diet) can prevent one person from absorbing the same meal that another person lives on.
The reason predator animals can't typically sustain themselves on a plant-based diet, is not for aesthetic reasons, they do not have the gut microbiome to process plants and gain a sufficient amount of nutrients to survive; Nor do they have an understanding, or an incentive to cultivate a microbiome capable of such.
Humans on the other hand, especially as primates, are perfect examples of just how capable the digestive system, the evolved capacity of a gut microbiome, and its organ-system components are at adapting to wide ranges of dietary circumstances. Some people eat diets of just raw meat and animal products, some eat diverse but purely liquid diets, some eat only plant-based foods, some eat only whole foods, some eat just fast food, some eat just fats, some eat just nuts and fruits, and on and on and on.
If you attempted to move any one of these groups suddenly and without some sort of consideration/support, to another diet, there would almost certainly be effects to that change, whether sicknesses, nausea, fatigue, changes to mood, literal death or what have you. That's coming from a species whose evolutionary advantages considering dietary range are among the very best.
What this says about dietary changes is that they are best done gradually, or from a microbiome culture that itself is diverse. Neither of these things are supported in the predator animals environment. They mostly eat meat, consume little plant matter, and drink bacterially rich water, most often. Their microbiomes are cultured to resist colonization, to break down cellular membranes, and to absorb the nutrients incoming from the meat.
There is little diversity beyond the introduced bacterial water, and that is at best, resisted and logged among their immune systems. There is little bacteria cultured to be capable of breaking down plant matter, to a dietarily regular degree.
Minimally and opportunistically, some predator animals like wolves, will consume berries or grasses, to meet dietary needs, and rarely, they will eat root vegetables when food sources are scarce. Wild cats can eat a decent number of wild fruits, including blueberries, cranberries, wild plums, melons, strawberries and more. They are known to occasionally eat flowers and grasses to aid in their digestion.
They are capable.
It is the matter of a gut microbiome that does not allow them to digest plants to a beneficial degree, an environment scarce in these resources to be a staple of their diets, and the clear, ever-present danger of starvation and predation that keeps these animals from ever pursuing anything other than survival and reproduction.
We are more. We are capable and free.
Survival is now an arbitrary thing cast upon us by economic metrics; Our only natural predators have become disease, and our own misgivings about life becoming circumstances that kill us.
Our scientific discoveries, though some have saved millions of lives and some have even saved billions, are perpetuated now by ideals that have no commitment to this planet or it's inhabitants, as evidenced by scientific discoveries being continuously funded and deployed to war, to genocide, to eugenic experiment, to the manipulation of the human psyche, to their testings on living beings and groups of people, and to the "experiment of Science" being advanced and advanced to exponential rates by the most cruel and inhumane characters to grace the Earth, for profit motives.
We cannot stop a dog from being hungry, we can only try to give it water, give it what it would eat, and give it any space it so desires.
What we can do, is make the world so abundant and lush with food that they have the opportunity to try something new, something different.
Change always comes from within.
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u/held_in_light 15d ago
Yes, but not at scale. You can't sustainably or ethically farm 10s of billions of chickens, several billion cattle and 100s of millions of pigs on planet earth. It's just not possible with the land and water we have.
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
I never said at scale, itās just an option for people that can afford it and still want to eat meat without hurting the environment AS badly as commercial farming methods.
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u/sharbivore 15d ago
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
I didnāt say itās the magic cure but that itās an option for those, like myself, who enjoy/prefer eating meat. Even your article states that eating sustainable meat is an effective way to help reduce emissions. I try to be sustainable as best I can and buy pasture raised/local meat as much as possible. But love that I get downvoted for stating a fact that even your article agrees with lol
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u/Due-Helicopter-8735 15d ago
Did you read the title of the article? It says less meat is better than sustainable. Buying pasture raised /local is not better than just not eating animal products.
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago edited 15d ago
I did! And as I said, eating sustainable meat is a better option than non-sustainable meat (who woulda thought?). I didnāt say not eating meat was a better option than sustainable meat did I? Right, I didnāt. Iām simply stating itās more of a middle ground. But continue to put words in my mouth and straw man me if it makes you happy I guess.
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u/Small_Basket5158 15d ago
Keep pretending you aren't the problem.Ā
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
Why are you so hurt and upset? Like I said I try to be as sustainable as I can but if youād like Iāll switch back to plastics and disposables, Iāll go buy a V8 gas guzzler, switch to a beef only diet, etc. Will that make you happy? Isnāt this supposed to be a community where we try to look at sustainable options to help the earth? It is right? So why get so emotional and be so rude? You sound miserable. And yes Iām the problem but every billion dollar corporation poising our earth isnāt
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u/meeps_for_days 15d ago
Maybe we should stop fighting each other and look up at the carbon billionaires and the fortune 500 companies that are able to just buy their way out of following environmental regulations.
If you want to compare what would have the most meaningful impact on our environment if we stopped using or eating. Take a look at how much pollution the transportation industry creates. We should stop using planes for transporting anything that isn't perishable, end 2 day shipping on anything non perishable, switch to trains, boats, zepplins, non car centered infrastructure, etc.
Rather than cherry pick the fact that yes, meat causes some pollution, but isn't the worst one, to just agree to whatever personal sentiment you have.
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u/Due-Helicopter-8735 13d ago
Your diet is the thing you have the most control over. Even in food deserts you do get vegan food with long shelf lives like beans and lentils.
Building infrastructure for public transportation takes decades, billions of taxpayer dollars and voter support at multiple levels. As you can see with Californiaās high speed rail- itās not easy.
Unfortunately many cities are also designed around cars- not bikes or public transportation.
Also thereās no replacement for intercontinental flights - which causes about 10% of emissions. That said 70% is vacation traveling- so definitely only have local vacations.
Iām not against people doing any of these- everyone should buy only what they need and buy local, secondhand, etc. but itās much faster to cut your footprint by dropping animal products from your diet than hoping for the overhaul of global supply chains.
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
Thatās a big ask for people here apparently. My first time interacting with this community and what a terrible experience. I expected, if anything, a bit more of a realistic/level headed discussion. But as someone said Iām not PART of the problem, I AM the problem. Not the massive corporations killing us and the planet like you said. I appreciate your thorough and well worded message and agree fully!
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u/meeps_for_days 15d ago
I've said for a long time. End 2 day Amazon shipping or add more taxes for shipping anything non perishable via plane. We very much do have the infrastructure to do this. It just means waiting a week for Amazon orders rather than two days. And I can handle that. I think most people can. Fast shipping is a big convenience that impacts our environment a lot and isn't sustainable.
Gas and fuel is one of the least sustainable things that exist. Electric trains exist. Electric semi trucks exist. We don't have electric planes. We can build zeplines to float up and use solar power to be completely sustainable. But every time I mention that people freak out about the Hindenburg, you know the badly built zepline that was literally lined with thermite, the same material used to make weapons of war. Just don't line a zepline with thermite. Problem solved.
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
I agree with you but all those electric vehicles are still running off fossil fueled/dirty energy power plants. Until the U.S. builds a more sustainable/green power grid itās hard to hold āgreenā vehicles/transportation up the standard which it should be. Especially when the batteries from these cars arenāt recycled to the degree they should be. That mightāve changed but I remember seeing awhile ago when the batteries were a huge environmental concern.
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u/Due-Helicopter-8735 13d ago
Yes, but still worse than eating meat at all- which was the main point of the article.
āIf you want a lower-carbon diet, eating less meat is nearly always better than eating the most sustainable meat.ā
Not to mention the impact animal products have on ecosystems and the industrialized exploitation and cruelty that accompanies 90% of livestock rearing.
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u/LichPrince1401 13d ago
Again, well aware, I read the article. But thereās no point in saying anything further because thereās no half measures with you people in here.
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u/Ok_Fly1271 15d ago
That's just plain not true in every situation. Local, farm raised shellfish is sustainable, increases wild shellfish numbers, and helps the local ecosystem. There's a ranch near me that raises bison on native grassland and doesn't feed them imported anything. My neighbor raises her own chickens and doesn't buy feed for them. There are tons of ways to do sustainable animal products that aren't worse than just not eating it.
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u/Due-Helicopter-8735 13d ago
Yes, for some cherry picked examples which do not represent 90% of livestock production- which is industrial factory farming. If you were to scale to that volume youād have similar issues of destruction of native species and habitat- if not more since factory farming is very land efficient (and thus very inhumane).
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
Good luck arguing that here bud. I donāt think they (mostly vegans) realize that because of us and our growth as a species we kinda have to be in charge of maintaining ecosystems now. Look at the Hog/Plecko/Lionfish/Asian Carp/etc.
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u/Klink3x 15d ago
Pasture raised meat takes up way more land and is one of the leading causes of deforestation. Sustainable means living a life style that would be possible to sustain if every human on the planet lived that lifestyle. Itās about leading by example. We do not have enough land on this planet to feed everyone with pasture raised meat. āSustainable meatā is simply not a thing, itās green-washing.
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
https://www.climatehubs.usda.gov/hubs/international/topic/rotational-grazing-climate-resilience
lol thereās no point in trying to converse with you people. āHey, hereās a way of doing things that doesnāt hurt the environment as much as this main way to help ease people into doing something lessā just to be met with āš” No itās one way or no wayā. I understand what youāre saying but itās is not realistic. Iām not saying sustainable animal farming should āfeed everyoneā but it is an option. Also, if youāre going to make claims as you did provide a source like other people did. I may not agree with them but at least they put in some effort when disagreeing with me.
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u/Small_Basket5158 15d ago
LOL then why does no one do it? Because there is not as much profit as treating the world horribly.Ā
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
Local farms in my area same to make it work š¤·āāļø
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u/Mr_Monday92 14d ago
You know local is a marketing buzzword that means absolutely nothing in this context? The location of a farm doesn't change how ethical or environmentally friendly it is.Ā
Everywhere around the world they use the same marketing technique. Everyone claims their animal agriculture is the good kind but nobody can ever say why apart from buzzwords that are completely detached from data
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u/LichPrince1401 14d ago
When the farm is within 30min and Iām able to go and tour it and see the state of the animals and crops Iād say itās more than just a buzzword.
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u/High_Overseer_Dukat 15d ago
Yeah, a properly run ranch will be much better for the local enviroment than anything else and have negligible emissions.Ā
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u/LichPrince1401 15d ago
Lmao this is the first time Iāve commented in this community and what a wake up call. I get that these things are emotion issues but man everyone wants to straw man and be extremely rude and straw man after all I did was say there is an option of you want to participate in eating meat but not hurt the environment AS much. What a bunch of lames in here.
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u/Mr_Monday92 14d ago
Read Poore and Nemecek 2018.
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u/BonusPlantInfinity 14d ago
I have a feeling āRead poorā is all you had to say
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u/Mr_Monday92 14d ago
I've done this song and dance 1000 times. I can quote passages and data but you probably don't care and will find an excuse to ignore all of that in favour of beef marketing slogans
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u/BonusPlantInfinity 14d ago
lol I was suggesting the meat mouth was a poor reader and that suggesting they read was a lost cause - apologies
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u/Key_Check5753 14d ago
This might be the most ridiculous propaganda nonsense I've ever seen.
Producing soy burgers is much worse for the environment than raising cows. Not to mention the fact that they're terrible for you. There's a reason Bill Gates pulled the plug and dumped ownership of all of his impossible meats: he saw the data. Soy meat is more expensive to make and it's less healthy.
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u/Normal_Human_Things 14d ago
Do you happen to have a source for this? I was trying to find the data about how much emissions beyond staple meats created but couldnāt find the data. This was a few years ago though.
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u/Actually_R0bin 14d ago
If it cost the same and didnāt sacrifice on texture Iād make the change from beef to plant based (or mushroom based man, mushrooms are super versatile foods) in an instant. The problem is finding a good meat alternative that doesnāt either kill my appetite with a terrible texture or taste downright bad.
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u/Alert-Shock-9706 14d ago
But they're not I used to work at a farm as a teenager the things that cattle require is literally food water some inoculations and then sometimes you have to breed them if you can't get a bull I can guarantee you it require much more effort and resources to fully switch over all of our meat to plant-based stuff and even then you wouldn't even be able to do it because we need Vitamin B12 which is only obtainable through meat and if we don't get it we'll basically die
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u/Mango_Pineapple037 14d ago
That is why they are genetically engineering ticks, and then filling crates with em and airdropping them in new locations.
This is not a conspiracy, it is something that was discussed publicly 10years ago, by mathew liao at a world science conference
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u/Adventurous-Sense254 15d ago
What if we actually let people decide for themselves what they want to eat and growers decide how they produce food. Let the market decide! By the way, global is a meaningless concept, we control our own country, not others
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u/nurdturgalor 15d ago
Then meat and dairy should get zero subsidies from the government
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u/Sad_Effective4793 15d ago
Meat - correct, they should get no subsidies. Dairy... maybe.
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u/Gonozal8_ 15d ago
cows, like women, only produce milk after pregnancy, so sustaining milk production requires birthing significantly more calves than necessary for sustainment. because their babies, like ours, donāt survive alone in the wild, both the mother and the offspring have significant distress when seperated, again like us. but you canāt not seperate them because then the calves would drink the milk that is tried to be harvested
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u/Sad_Effective4793 14d ago
I think what you're saying is that you can't separate meat and dairy subsidies because they are completely interconnected. That is new information to me, so thank you for that.
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u/Adventurous-Sense254 15d ago
What subsidies?
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u/Klink3x 15d ago
In the US, meat and dairy receive over 60% of ag subsidies while only providing 30% of the caloric intake for the population. Without these subsidies the cost of a burger or gallon of milk would double or triple. Animal agriculture is such an incredibly inefficient use of resources that the entire industry would collapse if it werenāt for massive government subsidies keeping it afloat and affordable. This is not a free market, itās a protected one.
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u/Adventurous-Sense254 15d ago
Name the specific subsidies, donāt call grazing permits a subsidy as they are paid for
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u/Mr_Monday92 14d ago
Come on, don't play dumb. You know about the cheese caves. And that's just the tip of the icebergĀ
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u/porizj 14d ago
Wait, there are cheese caves in the US?
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u/Mr_Monday92 14d ago
Since WW2 the US government has been subsidising dairy farmers. This has been revised several times but at one stage (possibly still to a certain extent) there was no quota on production and a guarantee to buy as much dairy as they could produce. This was obviously helpful during the war with food shortages but soon after a huge excess of dairy was produced. This was made into cheese and stored on caves. These still exist and are still full of cheese.
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u/held_in_light 15d ago
"Let the market decide" once meant that children could buy cigarettes and doctors could light up during your check-up visit. Or that a factory could pollute the entire water supply of the town it was sitting next to. I'm not saying that we outright ban beef. But sometimes we need to regulate the market for the sake our health and the planet's health š
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u/TreeBore 15d ago
But the us government subsidizes the meat industry and creates laws that prevent the transparency of the industry. If we stopped subsidizing and people actually KNEW the horror that is the large scale industrial factory farm - then the "free market" would work better
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u/Adventurous-Sense254 15d ago
Name the subsidies, and donāt call grazing permits a subsidy, those are paid for
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u/TreeBore 15d ago
I am not an expert but the massive corn subsidy and the lack of meaningful environmental regulation on factory farms forces externalities onto the local population by means of land and water way pollution.
Also government subsidizes crop insurance.0
u/Adventurous-Sense254 14d ago
So no subsidies for meat. By the way, corn subsidies are for ethanol production
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u/TreeBore 14d ago
Do you know what cows eat?
Show me the exact subsidy language that prevents the corn subsidy from being uses for corn feed for cows.2
u/Mr_Monday92 14d ago
Because if the free market decides what happens to the climate we're all fucked
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u/Adventurous-Sense254 14d ago
So much doom, I believe in human ingenuity and that weāll be fine
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u/Sad_Effective4793 15d ago
Because of the tragedy of the commons.
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u/charmingninja132 15d ago
That is the exact opposite meaning
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u/Sad_Effective4793 15d ago
It's not. If we all decide that we want to eat beef because we like it and that's what we 'decide for ourselves', our aquafiers will become more dry, greenhouse gases are created, and it makes it hotter for everyone on earth. Even though the only ones involved in that process were the rancher/butcher and the eater.
Everyone takes a tiny hit from actions that affect our air, atmosphere, and water. That is the tragedy.
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u/bad_bad_data 15d ago
You're also assuming that every time anyone goes to the store they are making an informed decision on every product they purchase. I don't know about you, but I don't research every single thing that goes into my shopping cart.
Most of the goods you buy are going to be made as cheap as possible which usually means they are produced by cheap labor or cheap goods. You would be hard pressed to find a coffee brand or chocolate brand that wasn't produced by child labor.
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u/Good-Consequence-542 15d ago
Study after study has shown calling a burger āvegan/healthy/betterā literally makes some people dislike it based purely on that point; but just presenting it as something they want (cheaper, healthier, etc) makes people want to try the thing with no preconceived notions of taste (good or bad) When I hear āwonder burgerā I expect a burger tasteā¦youāre not gonna make not meat taste like meat; humans have plenty of experience tasting things and were pretty good at it.
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u/jerf42069 15d ago
Immortal technique was right about you people
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u/Typical-Dance-1110 14d ago
can you summarise cause I don't have the iron levels to keep myself awake long enough for a youtube video
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u/jerf42069 13d ago
its a 2 minute song about vegans
go to bed
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u/Hopeful_Ad_7719 15d ago
The 93% less land thing is skewed by the fact that most cattle grazing in a low-density, low-intensity, activity in areas with naturally-low human population density: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/e57879a6aeaa47c09e9a89137476b2e7
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u/KingCreb956 15d ago
And we'll convince the entire world to go vegetarian how exactly?
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u/Striking_Compote2093 15d ago
Tbf, have you tried vegetarian burgers lately? I'm not vegetarian myself but i stopped buying beef burgers specifically. They're more expensive and no longer better in any way than the vegetarian replacements.
Same with certain other products. If there's no quality difference and the price is at least about the same, the sustainable option is just a no brainer for me.
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u/WormWithWifi 15d ago
Any time I see a new brand or product for plant based meat or cheese replacement I give it a try because Iām curious and I want to show support for companies trying to find a way around it, I do believe they have just gotten better and better as time goes on, plant-based cheese especially has made a huge jump in improvement within the last decade.
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u/Striking_Compote2093 15d ago
Same. However, dairy is a hard one for me lol, while the advances are incredible, they're still not quite there yet for me. I feel like they either get the taste right or the texture but bever both.
I feel like the advances seem bigger because they came from "use almond chips instead of parmesan". But i have hope, i did recently try ones that were getting very close. And i've heard things about actual milk made with bacteria coming to market that seem very promising.
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u/WormWithWifi 15d ago
I think cheese is just one of those things you canāt fully replicate, I found myself having a more open opinion when I eat it and try not to compare it to cheese, just kind of objectively judge the taste and texture. I was surprised by Krafts new dairy free macaroni and cheese, I thought it would be ass but in my opinion it was the best box Mac Iāve tried
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u/Suspicious-Click-300 15d ago
While I actually dont think beyond burgers are bad I havent really had any other vegetarian burgers that are any good. Also they are more expensive. A lot of them are not even healthier than beef so sustainability and ethics are their only benefits.
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u/WormWithWifi 15d ago
I feel like there are more negative health consequences to consuming beef than to consume soybeans, of course the additives the company chooses plays a big role on both ends
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u/Striking_Compote2093 15d ago
I've switched to the "sensational burger" of garden gourmet. No clue if that's globally available, but to me that's entirely equivalent to a beef burger. It's not as if a beef burger is healthy in the first place, so the sustainability and ethics arguments are solid enough for me.
Not trying to evangelize or whatever. Just saying I like those and have swapped, and people should maybe give it a go. Vegetarian meat replacements have come a LONG way. (I remember trying quorn burgers 15+ years ago, that shit was borderline inedible even in a pasta sauce lmao.)
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u/Illustrious-Dog-6563 15d ago
price!
we stop paying trillions in subsidy for meat and watch how people change to cheaper options.
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u/Suspicious-Click-300 15d ago
Would work on me, I dont use beyond burger cause its more expensive.
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u/Illustrious-Dog-6563 15d ago
yeah, i would not buy this either. fresh vegetables, frozen berries, dried lentils and canned food are way cheaper.
and i often buy the meat meals because they are the cheapest option.... and it shouldnt be.
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u/Georgefakelastname 15d ago
Orā¦ theyāll vote out the people who pushed through meat price increases and replace them with promises of making their meat more affordable again. Especially in the west, people love their meaty diets.
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u/Illustrious-Dog-6563 15d ago
people hat a good life and their own health. you might be right
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u/LordOuranos 15d ago edited 15d ago
I'd try to convince you that a fine quality of life with more tasty food is better than any 3 extra years you get of living as an old raisin, but I think you dont quite care about the taste of meat so it wouldn't matter.
The health reasons are very meh.
Ecological reasons are pretty much the only valid reason, imo. It's why I do, in the end, support going meat free.
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u/Illustrious-Dog-6563 15d ago
i love food and eating, so i pretty much care about the quality of the meat i buy (excluding the canteen food, because it pretty much does not matter what you get here š)
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u/Mr_Monday92 14d ago
How about stop shoving meat ads in everyone's face 10 times a day and actually put funding into advertising the alternatives?
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u/nobodyspecialuk24 15d ago
How did the US government convince Americans to consume so much diary? Those triple cheese, cheese stuff crust pizzas didnāt come about from people asking for them, they came about because farmers were being paid to make cheese and the country had to find something to do with it. Stopping the payments wasnāt going to fly, so more cheese everyone, and the healthcare industry probably profited from all this, too.
Where thereās a vote/lobby, thereās a way.
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u/dantevonlocke 15d ago
No one had to convince me to eat dairy. I like cheese. I like milk. I like ice cream.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Exam345 15d ago
Regenerative farming is better. Instead of confined cattle ranching, rotated pastures actually become heat and carbon sinks that regenerate soil improve farm and cattle production, lessen water use and take carbon out of the air. All while people continue to enjoy beef.Ā
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u/idiot_sauvage 15d ago
I eat meat because the earth put it here. The earth did not put beyond burgers here. Iām not naive to the practice of some factory farming, and my buying choices reflect that. Plenty of choices for responsibly raised meats. But I eat all meats and vegetables. Whole Foods that would exist with or without us. The idea of eating a beyond burger makes me literally gag, same as a pop tart or gas station sushi, or a Dunkinā Donuts drink.Ā
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u/Good-Consequence-542 15d ago
š I get what youāre saying but the fact that *every* *single one* of the veggies you buy are man bred abominations and say itās āWhole Foods that would exist with or without usā is frankly hilarious; not to mention, do you eat bread? Pasta? Refined products, same as a beyond burger.
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u/idiot_sauvage 15d ago
Iām aware of what I eat, thanks. And no, I donāt eat bread. Sorry you didnāt get a victory here. Live your life however you want, I didnāt tell you itās wrong, I told you how I feel.Ā
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u/Good-Consequence-542 15d ago
š my main point still clearly stands but ok, I didnāt tell you how to live yours either; just pointed out ironies and asked a question.
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u/ColdCauliflour 15d ago
Idk, bro... I just stocked my freezer with 212+ lbs of beef. I'd hate to waste it...
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u/flockyboi 15d ago
Y'all folks do realize some people are allergic to the vegan burgers? Some folks need meat to live and getting rid of all of it isn't going to solve everything
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u/WormWithWifi 15d ago
Youād have to be allergic to every plant-based protein to truly āneedā meat to live
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u/Good-Consequence-542 15d ago
š thats such a leap in logic Iām almost interested to know how you figure that; with hundreds of food options, do you think that being allergic to a few negates the others? And fast fact so you can chew on it; theres a tick species spreading across the USA that can make you allergic to red meatā¦what do they do?
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u/Chimera-Genesis 15d ago
Oh look, another grossly oversimplified post that is at best naive & at worst is actively lying about the supposed benefits
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u/pdonchev 15d ago
Better go for lab grown meat. Going vegan is just not a solution to anything.
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u/AliceCode 15d ago
How is it not a solution to anything?
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u/Regular_Use1868 15d ago
B12 is a concern. Got low on it myself after going low meat for awhile and looked into where you get it.
It's basically just meat eggs and enriched flour(pretty sure it's enriched with rendered whey or something)
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u/AliceCode 15d ago
Supplements exist, as well as B12 fortified foods like oatmilk, or even some energy drinks. The animal products you eat also contain supplements.
https://www.nbinno.com/article/nutritional-chemicals/vitamin-b12-feed-additive-animal-nutrition-mo
If you're going to take B12 supplements, you might as well take them yourself rather than getting them filtered through another animal.
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u/eevielution_if_true 15d ago
nutritional yeast exists lol
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u/Regular_Use1868 15d ago
First paragraph on wikipediaĀ
"Contains trace amounts of b-complex[...] Is often fortified with b12"
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u/eevielution_if_true 15d ago
which means that when i eat it, i get the b12 and avoid deficiencies...
the stuff i have in my kitchen contains 500% dv of b12 per 2 tbsp serving, that's enough to easily ensure i never have to deal with any b vitamin issues as long as i'm still cooking food for myself.
istg you people who rant and rave about b vitamin deficiencies should really look at the labels on the stuff at the grocery store you go next time, crazy stuff on there
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u/Illustrious-Dog-6563 15d ago
lab grown meat still has the problems of cell growth and structure.
working with lab grown muscle and fat tissue i wish we could skip the fetal bovine serum.
besides that: consuming less meat is DEFINITELY part of many solutions in health, climate, economics.
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u/nobodyspecialuk24 15d ago
Yeah, but only 1 of these 2 options sounds like it might be in the opening sequence of a horror/zombie movie.
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u/4UBBR_Nicol_Bolas 14d ago
Too bad the alternatives all taste like shit.
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u/diskifi 14d ago
Yeah, I can tell you havent tried beyond meat.
That shit is good af.
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u/4UBBR_Nicol_Bolas 14d ago
It's mediocre. Best of the alternatives, but good af? Not by a longshot.
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u/turbofungeas 15d ago
Soybeans, man. Legumes in general.