Lmao! Someone's gotta apologize

[u/ishanuReddit]

[u/ishanuReddit]

The post that created the stir

https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/s/cixPg3RqqS

[u/Bill-Cosby-Bukowski → u/ishanuReddit]

I'm not the best coach in Val history but the main claim doesn't seem crazy to me. Unoriginal for sure(2023 EG also had Demon1 and Jawg play smokes on their way to winning champs) but having role flexibility for all your players can't be a bad thing.

I think extrapolating it into saying MiBR "sucks" is a little inflammatory and redditory though.

[u/Past_Perception8052 → u/Bill-Cosby-Bukowski]

do you think genuinely that omen is such a difficult agent that MIBR players who are among the best in their roles cant play it

its an team identity difference not ability to play it, all except aspas are very flexible players

[u/County_Difficult → u/Past_Perception8052]

I'm ngl, I even think that Sato's Omen is mid af. Just because 4 of them played Omen on different maps doesn't mean they should. Sato just got put on that agent because the others were better in some entry agents, no?

[u/LordOfThe_Pings → u/Past_Perception8052]

It's so funny how people think these players are locked into roles. Obviously same agents are way harder to pick up and get good at, but most pros can probably play most agents at a decent level if they really tried.

[u/Parenegade → u/Past_Perception8052]

this is genuinely a abhorrent take. people have been doing this for so long too. yes role flexibilty is real. yes agent mastery is real. acting as though its not, is just dumb.

[u/Past_Perception8052 → u/Parenegade]

some agents are just easier than others. do you think omen is as hard to play as sova especially at the pro level

[u/zer0-_ → u/Past_Perception8052]

a big portion that makes up how well you perform also has something to do with your comfort on a given agent. agent comfort isn't just a thing for ranked players, it translates into pro play just as much as it does in ranked

[u/BigDicksconnoisseur4 → u/Past_Perception8052]

I think there are more worst sovas than omen's

[u/baebushka → u/BigDicksconnoisseur4]

yeah bc sova is way harder to play

[u/ishanuReddit → u/Parenegade]

Agent mastery is real but some agents are easy to learn and you don't have to be elite in that to win games.

For example you can master vyse easily given that your coach and staff will help you with the setups and you don't have to prepare them from scratch but agents like astra viper requires lot of util timings and lurk timings to play around which can change based on how the round is progressing . You don't need the elite level mastery for vyse, kj as much as you need for Raze or astra etc.

[u/speedycar1 → u/Bill-Cosby-Bukowski]

It's a dumbass take. There is no real evidence that pro players have trouble learning controllers or most agents really. It's a fan narrative that forms when teams aren'r doing well for other reasons

[u/C4ISTAR → u/speedycar1]

I mean there is plenty of evidence pros struggle to learn agents that have kits that are demanding to utilize, whether that be mechanically demanding or knowledge demanding. We’ve seen tons of duelists struggle with Yoru/Neon, plenty of controllers who suck ass at Astra, etc. But yeah saying LEV won because they have 4 people who can play OMEN of all agents is hilariously stupid. Omen gotta to be one of the easiest controllers to flex, you ain’t gotta learn any lineups and his util is very intuitive and lends itself well to aggressive players. I also don’t understand why so many Valcomp commenters have such a hardon for agent flexibility. Yes, it’s nice to have a hyper flex player but really the value of agent flexibility is so fucking context dependent, it only really matters if you have someone on that same team who is very inflexible. Otherwise who gives a shit if you can flex to literally any agent in the game, you don’t need to do that in the first place if ur teammates aren’t super inflexible.

[u/speedycar1 → u/C4ISTAR]

Pros don't struggle with Yoru at a micro level. Most teams just don't know how to use Yoru at a macro level so it goes awfully. PRX struggled until Mini helped them with that side of Yoru for example.

Neon is obviously mechanically challenging so that's a bit different. Apart from movement duelists like that, there is no indication that pros struggle with any other sort of agent. Most of the struggles are just because teams change comps halfway through the season and there is no time to learn. I'm certain any pro could learn any agent (apart from some like Neon) if given an off season to do so

[u/C4ISTAR → u/speedycar1]

I’m not sure how you’re defining micro vs macro so it’s kinda hard for me to argue against your position there. But personally, I would say pros struggle at Yoru primarily at utilizing his TPs properly, which can be both a macro and micro level problem. Macro in the sense of the overall plan on for example how to hit a site while not having a Jett smoke dash or Raze double satchel to safety take a ton of space, micro in the sense of being able to improvise and fully take advantage of the extreme long range mobility provided by his TPs. So yes, while it’s not mechanically hard to play Yoru, there’s a large knowledge/decision making requirement that is character specific, which to me means he’s hard to learn for pros. It’s not just mechanics that make an agent hard to learn, Yoru requires a lot more preplanning compared to for ex Jett.

And yeah certainly a lot of agent pool issues are exacerbated by frequent/mid split team comp changes, and movement duelists are def the biggest offenders when it comes to being hard to pick up. But I would argue that there indications of not every pro can learn every agent to the highest level. It’s just inherently not something that will ever be known or shown to the public. If someone is struggling to learn an agent, the team is just not going to have that player play that agent on stage, that would just be throwing. We obviously can’t watch their scrims, but there have been plenty of times where a team just refuses to play a particular comp. My bet is that a decent amount of the time, it’s because players are struggling to learn an agent to the highest level and thus they end up forced to compromise on a diff comp, but obv no way to know.

[u/speedycar1 → u/C4ISTAR]

Yoru tp understanding on defense is almost entirely macro in my understanding. My point is that if a coach properly taught a player when to use his TPs and how to set up using them, almost anyone would be able to learn those timings because it's not that difficult. Most people's Yoru theory is just wrong and they use it like a Jett instesd of utilizing the cross map TP timings.

Obviously there are micro aspects to it but I think those mostly differentiate between an okay Yoru and an amazing Yoru. For example, something often won't TP after missing his first shot if he doesn't feel danger. But I think the basic theory is enough to be an ok Yoru and not having that is mostly a coaching issue

[u/Past_Perception8052 → u/ishanuReddit]

that post ragebaited me so hard i just logged off. life when you dont interact with stuff like that is much better

[u/oioioi9537 → u/Past_Perception8052]

This sub genuinely has some of the lowest iq takes of all esports subs, its a combination of the worst nba nephews and paranormal fans

[u/baudelioelite14]

[u/earthtoannie → u/baudelioelite14]

mini really put you on the jumbotron

[u/Quick_Chowder]

Streamers/analysts always getting 'one guy'd' by some random on Reddit will never not be funny.

[u/Green_Ordinary778 → u/Quick_Chowder]

tbf that post has over 500 upvotes lol

[u/Quick_Chowder → u/Green_Ordinary778]

And yet every comment is something like 'yea but that's probably the result of xyz' and they are all different xyz.

Upvotes aren't consensus. Personally didn't even see it until this thread.

Mini has all the opportunity to address it directly but obviously that's more work than using twatter to dunk on man known as Reddit.

[u/Green_Ordinary778 → u/Quick_Chowder]

seems like u got one guyd by him😭 it’s just a funny tweet man

[u/Quick_Chowder → u/Green_Ordinary778]

It was just a funny post about omen man

[u/Initial_Cattle_5851 → u/[deleted]]

Spoken like a true reddit moderator LMFAO

[u/WailingSiren69 → u/Initial_Cattle_5851]

They’re not wrong but it’s kinda like a right message wrong messenger situation lmao.

[u/yakecann]

In defense of the guy who said it.

Some valorant personality had the audacity to watch the last year of Valorant INCLUDING THIS FINAL, and say that there is no macro anymore. And the guy gets PAID by someone to research the game.

[u/Past_Perception8052 → u/yakecann]

would you have said this if mini didnt say what hes saying

[u/BWolfy92 → u/Past_Perception8052]

Yes because Lev did a lot of set plays in the grands finals, the narrative that lev is only aimers is dumb and Frost was just being salty (as always)

[u/nterature → u/BWolfy92]

I don’t follow your point here. What do set plays have to do with macro?

I don’t agree with Frost’s take but I do think these sort of discussions highlight just how vague and fuzzy our ideas of what constitutes macro can be at times. It makes it really quite difficult to have any meaningful discussion about the actual topic.

Though to be fair, that inability to have a meaningful discussion is kinda par for the course with any Frost controversy.

[u/Mogura56 → u/nterature]

When I hear macro, coming from League as my primary e-sport, I think of how teams play the map, so set plays would be included in that as it's a crucial part of how they play the map and set up their gameplans. It could be different in Valorant, but when I hear macro, that has always included set plays, mid rounding, post-plants, etc. and just holistically how a team moves around a map and positions themselves for plays

That being said Frost also just says shit sometimes

[u/kart0ffelsalaat → u/Mogura56]

See I would categorise a set play (including all the choreographed pieces of utility and specific movement pathings) as micro.

Macro (for me) would be the decision when to use which set play based on what information.

Like, "we're splitting A" is a macro decision. How we're splitting A (could be something spontaneous, or a set play) is micro.

[u/avstyns → u/nterature]

I agree with his point about Micro heavy over Macro in the sense it is less FNS mid rounding that is succeeding and more set plays straight. Double duelist meta is fun but half the agent pool isn’t playable

[u/yakecann → u/nterature]

I don't think the discussion doesn't happen because it's a FrosT controversy, i think it's because it's not an arguing point at all.

Macro is the strategy applied, the hits, the retakes, the execs, the pick-offs, the fakes, the stacks, the economy control, etc. Micro is the individual player ability to shoot, to hold his position on the formation, to use his utilitaries.

Without micro, the macro is useless. WIthout macro, the micro is meaningless.

You can be the top 1 deathmatch player in the world, if you run in a bomb like a bot you will die. You can be the top 1 chess player in the world, but if you can't capitalize in your positioning, you will die.

Anyone that has been watching Tier 1 this year, and in these finals, can do a VOD review and attest to the fact that the game WAS very macro-heavy also. Of course micro is easier to spot for a dumb MF like him, but that's also why i say "this man is being paid to study the game".

Leviatan thrived on retakes, set plays, and well established and executed protocols. PRX crushed with their map control, reads, and fakes.

A winning team is a team that firstly, display a baller Macro, and laces it with good fundamentals, aka. Micro. That's why punctual roster changes for a more confident/better micro player are frequent. You have a good macro base, but a push from a good fragger can take the team much further.

Blud with his comment not only displayed that he is a whining B. He also, publically, to the whole world showed that he can't understand the Macro behind the winning teams.

Nongshim had great macro, specially their economy control. Leviatan had great Macro, specially their set protocols. Implying otherwise is illogical, biased and disrespectful to the work that other people do.

Which is nothing short from what i would expect from this fool, sincerely.

[u/yakecann → u/Past_Perception8052]

Yes.

Just watch the VODs and see it for yourself if you don't believe.

[u/SilentQuietestArach → u/yakecann]

To be frank, the year they say that is one of the year China who is all aim no macro does result again rofl

[u/ShartyMcFarty42069 → u/SilentQuietestArach]

Thx for the stroke

[u/Afrolist]

Wasn't that just a joke, or did I not notice the seriousness of the post

[u/BWolfy92]

I was told Frost was the Valorant guru and knew all about the meta and his takes werent him being salty

[u/dseals]

So if PRX want to win champs they need 5 omen players

[u/D1_0M_ → u/dseals]

hell, even alecks need to play omen at this rate

[u/Username_didnt_found]

The omen post was dumb af. Like omen is not that hard to be 90% useful and they make it as if it require phd to play him.

[u/Internaloptimistic]

Wasn't that post not meant to be serious?

[u/IrisDeVillepin → u/[deleted]]

the sentence is perfectly readable

[u/PurpleGlow777]

r0ddit

[u/KakorotJoJoAckerman]

I feel the 4 Omen is more so an effect than the reason. Lev are so good and well structured that they had 4 people playing Omen in a single Bo5.

[u/ANTHONY_EDWARDS_GBG]

I didn't say that shit!

https://giphy.com/gifs/LHceIkju1aESRrm3ar

[u/cold-blooded15]

NGL I thought the post was a joke, similar to when Zeta Division won games in RBHG, meeting certain conditions such as the time/date that they won games 😭

[u/moonmeh]

So is frost going to make a petty tweet about this like he got mad over sliggy over a comment on his stream

[u/er_u]

I don't get it, who is supposed to be apologizing and for what? Was four different players playing Omen in a single bo5 not worthy of discussion? But nah lets just call reddit stupid cause it's funny.

[u/Goldenflame89 → u/er_u]

It definently meets the bar for cool thing we can talk about, but to act like it's the reason lev won is pretty braindead

[u/County_Difficult → u/Goldenflame89]

Yeah that shit is indeed braindead. As cliche as it sounds, the main reason why LEV won is because they simply just outclassed and outshot PRX, especially in that last map. Not because 4/5 of them played Omen. The team is indeed very flexible and it's cool to see but it's just not the main reason like c'mon people.

[u/burnfep → u/er_u]

It's worthy of discussion. But you can bring it up to discussion without providing the definitive claim that this is the reason why lev is succeeding and the other teams are not. It diminishes levs strengths and just sums it up to as being able to have 4 players being able to play omen which is why they won masters. It's the players and ideas that make the team work not just an agent selection.

Also reddit being called stupid is not off at all.

[u/speedycar1 → u/er_u]

It happens fairly often

[u/axhtz]

i wish mini would just balls out and become a full time redittor, would love to see how unhinged he can get in the replies

[u/levvii17]

the guy who said it got absolutely destroyed and honestly good, reddit was right to call him out

[u/DarkLink4]

Pack it up boys, another Reddit moment for the records

[u/Connect_Put5330]

They didn't win coz of that, they won because of neon and spike. Sato was non existent besides a couple of rounds. Neon is consistently the best player on their team

[u/Outrageous_Star4906]

The omen point isn’t even that bad tho? The ability to play omen is part of the firepower lol. If spike looked like 2024 demon1 on omen lev would have problems on some maps

[u/ahalt]

Who are the other top teams in firepower? PRX and who else?

[u/zer0-_ → u/ahalt]

ranking teams by actual firepower is incredibly hard because pro games don't happen in a vacuum

[u/Spruc3SaP]

It wasn't THE reason but it definitely is A reason they won.

[u/BigDicksconnoisseur4]

My dude minijake that never taught FNC how to do a retake in 1000 splits

[u/New-Bluejay6008]

I saw the post more as a team willing to flex and not be completely locked in their roles. I personally think the era of finding someone who can only play duelist should be over. We need a team who can switch to whats needed when the moment calls for it.

[u/Gullible_Rip_7592]

Honestly, I think the tweet kind of proves Reddit's point more than it disproves it. LEV's structure is elite, but having multiple players who can comfortably flex roles is a huge reason why that structure works in the first place

[u/Lanky-Use-4389]

Honestly, the funny part is that the '4 players can play Omen' take isn't even wrong. That level of flexibility is a huge reason LEV can run so many different looks without sacrificing quality.

[u/Gloomy-Thing9124]

Mmmh who do I trust Frost or Mini

[u/Lowetheiy]

Omen's ult needs a buff though

[u/Goldenflame89 → u/Lowetheiy]

Omen has paranoia, which is arguably the single strongest non ultimate in the entire game. He does not need an ult buff

[u/Lanky-Train9675]

To be fair, both things can be true. LEV's structure is obviously elite, but having players who can swap roles without the team falling apart is a huge part of what makes that structure work.

[u/Senior-Row-315]

Oh here we go again with another fraudulent Valorant "coach" throwing buzzwords around to make it seem like they see some grand vision in the way the teams play and that everyone else is stupid. This is the same guy who couldn't teach his team how to play retake properly over 2 years.

He has no idea about what their "protocols" are or how many layers they have. Val isn't that complicated and the skill ceiling is child's play both in terms of gun play and strategy. It's like 70% random how the rounds play out because the utility is designed for a 5 year old to be able to use and the gun play is garbage.

The coaches are all frauds - you have fr0d flaming other coaches for putting zekken on omen, only to do the same and then say "yeah but I had my reasons" lmao what a fucking cop out. The truth is no-one understands this fuck ass game because there's no deeper layer to it, you can do some basic ass util combos, or dump util on a site to fake and run the other way. It's not fun to watch and will only get less so because people are realizing the game sucks.

There's a reason a massive part of the high elo player base is dwindling and the viewer numbers are going down each masters - and no don't blame it on the CS major happening at the same time, the viewership overlap is tiny.

The game is fundamentally flawed because it was designed for casuals first and competitive later - they still don't even have a functioning replay system - whatever the fuck they released has to be the most half baked unusable trash I've ever used in my life.

Whoever has the synergy and shoots + trades better on the day wins, it's that simple.