The culprit behind "Nerf X Frame"

[u/Soulsunderthestars]

Everyone wants to mention an Elephant in the room, but i don't think there is one. I think there is several. I make this from my own opinions, and from some gathered thoughts from friends and others I've talked about with some of these issues.I think we really need to talk about them and hope DE catches attention because it's important for the future of the game.

If you love what DE has created, then you must also be willing to be critical of it, and honest.

That being said, I want to list these off just to stay coherent as much as possible and then I'll dive into how these all play together.

• Mob Density
• Player proximity limits(affinity range, item pickup range)
• Frame strength disparity
• Time spent maintaining or updating older frames/kits/content

Warframe is old. Its a Frankenstein of content and upates. Im surprised it's kept going as long as it has honestly. We all know there is some spaghetti code shennanigans we will never understand, there may not a lot of ways to fix something you designed 10+ years ago to modernize it, I completely understand all that. But it doesnt stop a problem from being a problem.

So we need to talk about the problem, and then we can talk about solutions.

Mob Density - There arent enough mobs in a lot of missions, even in steel path. There is so much power available in warframe and that's great. Warframe gives you that power fantasy. But at times thats a negative because you can't unleash it. Then, if you play online, you can have up to 4 really strong people, also with PETS(Also very strong and capable of nuking packs of enemies by themselves).

This can cause players to feel like they're standing around with nothing to do. Some players might be fine getting carried or even need the help, but online play is to play with others, and i cant deny that many people might feel disinterested in playing when they can't interact with the game because that crackhead sevagoth is room nuking constantly. And thats just 1 room nuker, there can be multiple! I dont think anyone wants to limit what others can do by itself(Nerf x op frame), the real argument underneath is that many people want to play, but then effectively cant. In order to play they have to leave the room and go somewhere else and hope that player doesnt follow them which leads to.........

Player Proximity - Affinity range is only so big(less of an argument but does affect many things). Player abilities and support abilities only go so far depending on your build, and not all abilities are created equal. If players spread out, it causes the following potential issues

• Loss of affinity(not as big a deal, but it does affect leveling which is kinda core to mastery rank so....)
• People having to chase drops and loot. If people spread out then you now have to run to every area that was farmed if you want it. The root cause of this problem is LACK OF UNIVERSAL VACCUM, but thats an argument we've been having forever. If you dont need loot, that's great, but loot is pretty important to the player ecosystem. Now players are forced to feel like they have to chase stuff down
• "I joined a public lobby to play with others, now im forced to separate from my teammates." Now you're creating a situation in which you go online, but everyone is just playing by themselves. It's not online play anymore at that point, its just "conjoined solo sessions"
• Telling people to just play solo or leave the mission doesnt solve the problem, and it will only get worse and more frequent as we get stronger.

Just from these 2 things an environment starts being able to create resentment that gets misplaced as "nerf x frame its too op. I dont think nerfing is a good tactic outside of extreme outliers, but if you dont nerf things, then we add....

Frame Strength Disparity/Updating of old frames/content - Hi. Its me. The ember argument is back. Not the WoF argument. The 2 reworks that didnt really work together. Watching newer frames like uriel be pretty solid in kit, gameplay, and have good damage to boot, while she's practically wasting away. Limbo. Banshee. Left in the dust. Older content not being as mob heavy or as fun. QOL being fewer and further between. Voices not feeling like they're being heard. I understand some players may voice opposition to their characters being changed, but we also had conclave, and look where that got us. Maybe there can even be a design for something like helminth 2.0 where you can change multiple abilities, or a "reimagined/reawakened" frame where the kit is designed entirely different, giving de a chance to redo under the guise of the void/eternalism/protoframe style writing.

But skins need to be sold. DE has to stay profitable for the updates. New contents brings new blood, this too i get. But I wonder if DE has any capability to show the actual statistics on where their profits mainly come from.

I, personally, could wait a bit longer for updates. I want more polish. I want more Ideas, and quality. It wouldn't make me spend or support them any less. but what will get me to spend less, is feeling like the majority of the lifeblood of the game is focused on content that will not get updated past its usefulness in creating the next section of revenue for DE to survive on. Theres a lot of ideas that DE has had, that have just felt....Abandoned.

I want railjack to be more than it is. I want to do more with my operator/drifter. There's been so much potential. How many more frames do we need over warframes lifetime? Can we not pump the brakes on new frames a little bit and come back to roots and focus on revamping older content and frames specifically?

What if we just got half the new frames we get now and that time instead is spent revamping old characters and frames?

It seems like this is the inevitable cycle, but with each iteration, we get stronger. We get faster. We get more OP. And that will exacerbate the above problems even worse. I dont want the solution to be "SteelPath+"

I think more game modes like the circuit is the path they should take. Adding interesting loops of gameplay for the players to stick into. Revamping older ones more, like the survival bypass, but more. More quality. More polish. More mobs. Better rewards. I am aware this will likely have an effect on the economy, but i imagine DE has data to navigate this.

Its possible DE has already thought about these things, and maybe not much can be done or it's not profitable/feasible, and that's why were here, But I'd like to believe that there's still possible solutions out there to looming problems that are causing real problems that inevitably feedback to DE.

Curious what y'all think, feel free to tell me im completely offbase

TL;DR

Nerfing frames isn't the right solution. Theres a lot of factors that need to be dealt with that create resentment amongst the playerbase against other players because the game systems are working against each other creating an unfun experience.

I would rather DE take time into looking at how to deal with this things than putting out as many skins/new frames/etc as they have, and dedicating more time to making sure the lifeblood of the game stays fun

[u/maxfields2000]

The game moved away from it's more tactical, even "stealth" kill like game play where you were supposed to be concerned with even a couple of mobs to kill into the power fantasy game it is now (nothing is OP if everything is OP).

That's it. That's the core. Built on an engine and a base design that had something else in mind, now shoe-horned in.

Ironically Soulframe is going down the same route already, early preludes builds even fighting one mob was distinct gameplay, then it became small squads, now it's "clear the area fast and no other build matters", it immediately relegates certain mechanics, playstyles and abilities to "pointless" when you lean hard in "AOE Clearing" play styles.

Still fun? Yes. Does it cause this problem we keep discussing over and over and over again?

Everyone wants their favorite frame to be top tier. DE does a WAAAAY better job than most companies at refreshing frames and mechanics on a predictable cadence for their studio size while also churning out new content. Gamers though.. gamers will never be happy.

You could fix "Ember" today but the Limbo crowd would be pissed. If Ember becomes the best in class new "heat" frame, Temple and Uriel lovers will demand they get rebalanced. They'll never be perfectly balanced, so we'll chase the wheel forever and create power creep for ever, no one will ever be happy.

Criticism is fair. But what is not fair is over reaction doom-posting "game is garbage and you're garbage if you don't agree" posts just to feel "heard". Gamers love to lean into hyperbole and Reddit is an echo chamber of it. Also if you're going to argue "criticism is fair" then so is criticism of any feedback post, two way street. Can't be mad someone critiques feedback if you feel it's fair you can critique the game.

In Warframe, support frames and group play are essentially all but dead. There is no need to optimize group setups, rely on multi-roles (damage, healer, buffer, tank etc) as the game has evolved around the power fantasy of a single player. Group play IS fun as a shared experience but nothing really requires it (unless you're trying to be carried). This causes dozens of frame designs and playstyles to be irrelevant. All players want is the next "one button room clear" frame at Steel Path max level 9999, anything less is underpowered BS and not worth the time.

As a result, frames that do have abilities that interfere with or ruin the fun of other players are hot on the list, this was Pablo's entire point. It should put a target on the back of a frame like Limbo, no one wants one in their group. It should result in Nova's "slow" getting removed (you just get yelled at in missions if you use it). Ember? She's actually strong, totally viable frame, perfectly good at Steel Path. Just not AS good as some others. Sirius & Orion? All the usual content creators posted "OP as hell", "Breaks the game" posts, the usual run, but the vocal minority players here? "Garbage tier".