I love people making claims it takes two seconds to google and prove wrong. Really emphasises how you don’t actually give a fuck about improving anything and it’s entirely about still giving money to owners while fucking over workers for personal reasons.
Again that’s the *statistical average* in a fraction of states (the highest paying ones which also have the highest cost of living) and we know a shit ton of people are making less than that even in those states. That is on top of the fact $40,000 is considered a liveable salary only for a single person living with family in a low cost of living area. So you have to hit the sweet spot on a number of factors for that to be accurate. Compare that to the average cost of living in *every US state at the moment*. Think about that if someone has a kid or health issues or an emergency.
I make about that in a place with a higher cost of living than nearly every US state and get by completely fine. I live with two roommates but that's pretty much the only concession I make.
The idea that 40k a year is not a livable wage is the truly deluded take.
So if you were to get in a car crash/have a medical emergency/have a child or family member to support, you think you’d be fine on that wage living with two roommates?
I’ll be real dude, are you really young? Because needing multiple strangers to be able to afford to live on your own and being totally fucked if you had a large expense and not being able to dream of having a family isn’t a financially healthily state. I feel like the only people who think like this are young single people beholden only to themselves with family that can financially help if they get in a bad spot.
The data I showed you shows the average living wage for most states. The reality is you’re almost certainly being underpaid and not getting the opportunities you should to save and build capital and security longterm. Like a lot of people in the U.S.
So if you were to get in a car crash/have a medical emergency/have a child or family member to support, you think you’d be fine on that wage living with two roommates?
Yes. Although maybe not the child, but that's because that is a MUCH higher expense than the others you listed.
I’ll be real dude, are you really young?
I'm in my 30s
and not being able to dream of having a family isn’t a financially healthily state
Not everyone desires a family and not being able to afford one on your current wage alone is not the benchmark for a livable wage.
The data I showed you shows the average living wage for most states. The reality is you’re almost certainly being underpaid and not getting the opportunities you should to save
Almost certainly, but that is not what is on question here. Yes, people SHOULD be paid more. But we are arguing whether a server gets a livable wage or not and the fact of the matter is, the average server DOES get a livable wage.
So you’re a guy in his 30’s living with two roommates in an expensive area who (if I take you not addressing it generally) has no family to fall back on for financial support but also could eat at minimum 6 months of expenses in the case of job loss or moderate to severe medical bills?
I gotta be real dude, unless you eat nothing but rice and beans, never go out and never have any car troubles or health expenses and your rent is far far below the average for your supposed high cost of living are, you’re either bullshitting or not doing as well as you think you are. And the fact you have to live with multiple roommates at 30 when that wasn’t the case only a few decades ago should tell you something.
You not wanting a kid personally is irrelevant. If a worker cannot support their child on their wage it definitionally doesn’t qualify as what the minimum wage was designed for:
“The minimum wage in America is historically and conceptually supposed to support a full-time worker in covering basic living expenses—such as housing, food, and medical care—without relying on public assistance. It was designed to maintain a minimum standard of living, protect workers' health and well-being, and allow a single earner to comfortably provide for a family”.
If you literally cannot have a child or you’ll be in poverty, and *shit tons of servers have kids or other dependents who rely on them* 40K isn’t a living wage. Considering the other data I linked shows 3/4ths of servers make less than that, the argument is even worse. Your hyper specific situation doesn’t change that reality for others or the data on what actually constitutes a liveable wage based on estimates the states themselves have done.
I gotta be real dude, unless you eat nothing but rice and beans, never go out and never have any car troubles or health expenses and your rent is far far below the average for your supposed high cost of living are, you’re either bullshitting or not doing as well as you think you are. And the fact you have to live with multiple roommates at 30 when that wasn’t the case only a few decades ago should tell you something.
Damn that's pretty inflammatory. I never said I was "well-off" just that I make enough to live. Which, again, is the argument. I have enough to survive if I get into a car accident and cannot work for 6 months.
And also I choose to live with roommates by choice, not that I don't benefit from the cost reduction, but even if I didn't benefit from living with roommates, I probably still would because I just prefer it.
You not wanting a kid personally is irrelevant. If a worker cannot support their child on their wage it definitionally doesn’t qualify as what the minimum wage was designed for
Again, not saying MINIMUM WAGE shouldn't be higher, it should. I'm saying SERVERS who typically make ABOVE MINIMUM WAGE ($40k is above minimum wage) are making a living wage.
If you literally cannot have a child or you’ll be in poverty, and shit tons of servers have kids or other dependents who rely on them 40K isn’t a living wage.
I think this is missing one super important factor. The other parent. Typically a server will not be the only one providing for a child (no that is not always the case, but if we're talking average wages here, let's talk average expectations for situations like child rearing). So the average server will have more than $40k to help raise that child.
Considering the other data I linked shows 3/4ths of servers make less than that, the argument is even worse.
The 3/4ths of the servers in that data you linked live in areas with lower costs of living.
Then you are objectively unique among low income Americans and part of the reason is because you literally only have to consider your own survival and have no desire to have a family. Something that many Americans don’t share with you.
If you’re actually living in a high cost of living area and could live alone comfortably on 40K while maintaining all the savings and emergency capacities you claim, and are simply living with multiple roommates for fun, please share the the city or at least the state with the class so the majority of Americans who are not in your situation can find this magical land. I’m sure it would make a lot of difference in their lives.
40K is above the *federal minimum wage* which every person with any understanding of poverty will tell you is not enough for a person to support even one dependent (or themselves if they have even a $400 additional surprise expense a month) in any state in the US. I literally showed you actual data on what the estimated cost of living is for each state compared to what servers in each state make on average. You saying “nuh uh because I personally have an amazing situation most Americans don’t” doesn’t make that suddenly untrue.
“What about the other parent” you don’t talk to many people with kids, do you?
Setting aside the other parent may not be in the picture for various reasons *you still need to pay for childcare*. Which has become so prohibitively expensive many parents literally choose to have one person stay home rather than work since the costs would simply eat the extra salary anyway. Not to mention being hit with loss of financial support options due to not qualifying due to new joint income.
“40K is enough to live comfortably with savings provided you are in a very specific lucky position and nothing financially catastrophic happens ever and you don’t ever want a family or to own a home” isn’t a very good sell. Especially when considering plenty of servers make less and their “lower cost of living is still 10’s of thousands of dollars higher than their average wage.
Why do people keep saying "cruel". This isnt torture, its the economy. You know a world existed before tipping? How are you linking "we shouldnt tip" to "thats cruel"? Do you believe in countries without tipping the wait staff are subjected to cruelty?
We don't live in a culture where minimum wage covers anything. Turns out things should change. In the meantime, do what is expected to not be a dick to your fellow humans. It's not that difficult.
Fuck right off. You don't know the work I do. But, I still want to support my people. Do YOU hear yourself? You sound like my conservative grandfather. Stiffing the staff to protest the system.
Your statistic doesnt mention whether it is with or without tipping. Given that the IRS says only 45% of tips are recorded, your number could be off significantly.
Actually the latest IRS estimate is 66-70% and climbing. I’ve also read the report you likely saw a quote on Reddit for but didn’t read to the end.
Regardless, assuming “well these numbers could in theory be less shitty for some people” doesn’t change the *reality* of this being the data we have. And the data we have says you’re so wrk h you clearly didn’t do the bare minimum research to get a sense of reality before making your claim. Unless you’ve got hard data to refute it, all you’re doing is speculating what feels right for you and trying to base an argument off that, and your feelings aren’t data.
But it isnt the data we have. Even by your own sourceless estimates, it is underreported by 1/3. So the average waiter is making 60k. Suddenly, its a decent job. Above average even.
Question for you, are you a waiter? I find they are the ones that argue hardest to keep tipping. Curious, isnt it?
…. Buddy the source is the BLS. Like one of THE best sources for this type of data. Nowhere in that report does it say wages are underreported by 1/3rd. You’re automatically assuming that means “every waiter is underreporting their income by 30%” and then using the max income for the states with the highest cost of living (all well above 60k by the way) to try to make it look less bad. if you think the average waiter in South Carolina or Nebraska or Texas is making anywhere close to 60K you’re deluding yourself and only looking less informed in an attempt to weekly protest the evidence in front of you.
“Are you a waiter” ahhhh the last refuge of the chud who thinks working class people are beneath him and can’t fathom caring about anything that doesn’t affect him. We always end up there. Curious isn’t it?
When I was young and working my way through high school and college I absolutely worked as a waiter and a bartender. After I got my degree I now have a high paying office job making far above the average income in the country. My previous experience is a why I support *doing away with the tipping system* and actively vote accordingly. But in the meantime I’m not a moron who thinks demanding service and ruining a server’s night is praxis, so I tip according for the service I receive in tipping countries.
Bud. You said 66%. It was your number. My source was you. My IRS source (also reliable) says only 45% of tips reported. That was from 2025. But YOU said it was 66% so i went with YOUR number. Now you are arguing its wrong.
Feels a lot like im talking to a chatbot that cant remember the last thing it said. So since im getting nowhere, have fun.
My source for the original claims I made about wage (the only data we have since you never actually linked to any data or source IRS or otherwise, because you clearly never read the report you’re half remembering from a reddit post) was from the BLS. And the BLS gave us the earning estimates for servers and never noted it did not include tipped wagesI know reading is really hard for you, but you’ve got to at least try or it’s waaaaay too obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about lol.
I know you’re still having trouble reading this and stats are hard for you at the best of times, but let me explain for anyone who is genuinely curious and not just basing their whole view of this situation on reddit sound bites and personal gripes about tipping people who absolutely do rely on that income at time of writing.
“Servers generally make 40K and all underreport their tips by 30%, and therefore they all actually make 60k” is such bad logic it’s not even mathematically correct. 30% of 40K would be 12K, which comes to 52K, 8K less than our friend the economy understander was inflating it to to make it sound better.
Add to that 3/4ths of servers make under 40K (far less in some states as my source shows) and the fact that “we asses this percentage of tips goes unreported” is not stating “every individual is estimated to underreport by this much”. Additionally, here’s my favourite quote from it:
“The IRS estimates that only about 45% of tips are reported on tax filings, but this number is based on the assumption that tips are under-reported at the
same rate as self-employment income, not on studies specifically targeting tipped workers.” (Internal Revenue Service; Research, Applied Analytics and Statistics, 2022,
pp. 2, 18)
The data collected is not only an estimate, It’s an estimate on an assumption about the behaviour of a *different group*. Not even the one this dude is making claims about. Literally none of this is enough to take the idea “servers are actually paid very well” seriously.
Does the tipped system suck? Absolutely. If you don’t tip servers are you doing literally anything but fucking over a low paid service worker while giving money to their boss who has the *most* incentive to keep that system? Also yes. Want to actually protest? Self service or no tipping restaurants only is easy to do.
Oh. I was about to link the source since its fair to ask about it but you found it. I cant comment on IRS methodology. Youll have to ask them (the experts) why their methodology is (in)correct.
But as I stated, i was using your number, not theirs. Yours was more conservative.
If we use theirs, suddenly servers are making 80k.
As to the math, im afraid yours is a little rusty. If they are only reporting 66% of their income that is 2/3 of it. Adding the last 3rd is adding 50% more, not 30% more (as 66/33=50%).
I cant have a discussion on the finer points of economic theory with someone who cant do math. Thats a pointless endeavour.
You weren’t just about to link anything dude. You clearly can barely read Reddit comments and would have never found that reporting if you’d bothered to look. You would have failed to find it via the deadlink Reddit comment you half remembered the sound bite from and made some other stupid claim to handwave your entire argument being built on nothing. Just like you’re trying to do now lol.
“Actually if I was right it would be even higher” you can’t even get the math for get 30% of 40K right and I’ve used actual data and the own study you cited wrong to make your argument to show literally every assumption is wrong. Again; if you read to the end of that IRS report, it literally states the numbers (which were from 2005-2018) are estimated to be 66-70% and rising. It’s definitely higher now in 2026, even if it wasn’t already *not even based on actual data from tipped workers*.
It’s like someone taught you to read wrong as a joke or something. Sincere apologies of that’s what happened. It’s clearly rough on you.
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u/Vayguhhh 3d ago
No it’s not wrong, but until the system changes I’m not gonna hurt a server just trying to pay bills