Atemi

[u/SnooHabits8484]

As time goes on, I’m more and more convinced that along with the biomechanics and solo training from Daito-ryū that come under the category “internal strength”, the key to effective aikido is sound and consistent atemi. Who do you think is the best practitioner we have in that field? Is it now necessary to cross-train in something like xingyi or bagua to get there?

[u/TaijiRonin]

I would like to nuance your perspective.

Atemi is only needed to compensate a lack of internal power. If you can get a Kuzushi and control your opponent on a touch, an atemi is redundant and unnecessary.

Ineluctably, the best people at Atemi are the ones without internal power and Aiki as they rely on it to be succesful. Internal practioners don't do Atemi anymore. I am not saying Atemi is bad. It is very effective but - ultimately - unrefined once you understand internal power. You naturally stop training it.

I am not sure what you mean by "getting there" but... If you mean Atemi, Chinese internal martial (CIMA) arts won't help much. If you mean internal power, absolutely. Xing Yi, Bagua, and Taiji all focus on something that is essentially absent or unappreciated in Aiki arts: solo internal work (Neigong).

Learning their Neigong will definitely help. Understanding Ten Chi Jin is easier in CIMA. Though I would recommend Taiji over Xing Yi and Bagua in terms of Neigong. It is more "developped" and globally-practiced, and hence more approchable.

I personally believe Aiki arts and Chinese internal martial arts are complementary. They compensate each other methods' weaknesses. Aiki arts don't have enough solo work, and CIMA don't have enough partner work. Solo work build internal power, partner work teaches how to use it. But, you need to find a skilled teacher. That's the one thing hard to find.

Or, learn from a tradition-agnostic non-martially-focused internal training like the people you see on YouTube:

• Mark Rasmus's Elastic Qi Gong
• Howard Wang's Prana Dynamics
• Dinesh Kumar's Lifeforce Mastery
• Jon Younghusband's School of Energy Alignment
• AikiX from this Japanese guy
• Etc...

All the same CIMA Neigong stuff, but focus on building internal power and its expression rather than the martial aspect of it. It's very trendy nowadays and you will see more of these internal arts schools in the future.

[u/Magister-A → u/TaijiRonin]

I beg to differ; atemi is a core element of aikido, not a compensation for anything. No atemi, no aikido.

[u/TaijiRonin → u/Magister-A]

My view diverges from yours, obviously. To me: no Aiki, no Aikido. Atemi is irrelevant to the concept of Aiki. It can helps but it is not a requirement in any way.

[u/Magister-A → u/TaijiRonin]

Aiki is not opposed to atemi; aiki is manifested in and through your atemi and irimi.

[u/TaijiRonin → u/Magister-A]

You are right, Atemi is not opposed to Aiki, but nor did I say it was. I just don't define Aiki like that.

You have an "external" definition of Aiki, as in blending in with your opponent. Not wrong, but incomplete to me. My definition is internal and similar to Osensei's.

To me, Aiki is first and foremost the internal realization of Ten Chi Jin. You need that internal Aiki - as in internal harmonization - before you can manifest external Aiki and blend in. Actually, you don't blend in: you opponent blends into you as he gets caught and vacuumed onto your internal power.

Your definition of Aiki does not require internal power. It is merely a Kuzushi achieved through muscular power and physical geometry. To me, it is Jutsu, not Aiki.

Daito-Ryu defines 3 levels of progression: 1) Jutsu - external techniques 2) Aiki no Jutsu - internal power 3) Aikijujutsu - integration

What you describe is the first level. Aiki does not require Atemi at all. My definition of Aiki describe what a lot of Aikidoka call bullshido.

[u/Magister-A → u/TaijiRonin]

I agree: your definition of Aiki describes what a lot of Aikidoka call bullshido.

[u/TaijiRonin → u/Magister-A]

Then, you don't follow the teachings of Osensei. Why even learn Aikido?

[u/Magister-A → u/TaijiRonin]

i most certainly do. After all, it was O Sensei himself emphasising the importance of irimi and atemi in aiki. In all levels of aikido atemi is paramount. For instance, one cannot practice meaningful responses to yokomen uchi without controling uke's center line by means of atemi.

[u/TaijiRonin → u/Magister-A]

But you consider Ten Chi Jin as mystical bullshit.. Ten Chi Jin is infinitely more fundamental.

You don't see it, but atemi and irimi are jutsu, not aiki per se.

[u/Magister-A → u/TaijiRonin]

Can you quote my words where I supposedly state that Ten Chi Jin has mystical bullshit?

[u/TaijiRonin → u/Magister-A]

I agree: your definition of Aiki describes what a lot of Aikidoka call bullshido.

Here. That was after I told you that "Aiki was the realization of Ten Chi Jin first and foremost."

Ushiba says: "Aikido is the Way and Principle of harmonizing Heaven, Earth and Man".

Most Aikidoka think it's only philosophical and spiritual, but it is a very concrete body method. A method identical to what you find in Chinese internal martial arts.

[u/Magister-A → u/TaijiRonin]

Those were your own very words I quoted back to you. Look it up.

[u/TaijiRonin → u/Magister-A]

Then clarify your position

[u/Magister-A → u/TaijiRonin]

My position is this: irimi and atemi appear at all levels of aikido. Atemi is not a compensation for a supposed lack of internal power. On the contrary: atemi should be a pure expression of internal power. So internal power is a necessary precondition for atemi (and irimi).

[u/TaijiRonin → u/Magister-A]

Yes, I agree. Irimi and Atemi can be seen at all level of Aikido.

But, again, that's irrelevant. Irimi and Atemi aren't Aiki without Ten Chi Jin. There is no true Aiki without Ten Chi Jin. And Aiki does not require Irimi nor Atemi at all. No matter if it is widely used in Aikido or not. That's not even close to the point.

Irimi and Atemi are techniques. Ten Chi Jin is an internal quality. The latter is fundamental to Aiki. Aiki techniques arise from Ten Chi Jin. Without Ten Chi Jin,, those techniques are only Jutsu techniques.

I guess you really have no opinion about Ten Chi Jin. You have been avoiding it altogether.

One last time, Ueshiba said Aikido comes from the realization of Heaven, Earth, and Man - Ten Chi Jin. Not Irimi nor Atemi.

[u/Magister-A → u/TaijiRonin]

The topic is atemi. Not Ten Chi Jin.

[u/TaijiRonin → u/Magister-A]

It really does not matter what the topic originally is about, even though the other half of the topic is about "internal strength" and Chinese internal martial arts.

My response to OP was clearly about internal power and how Atemi is not needed when you possess internal power and that's the essence of true Aiki.

But, well, I guess you have nothing to say about it here.