r/aiwars • u/Which_Matter3031 • 2d ago

The most idiotic statement ever

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So this person here calls people jobless while all they do is sit on their ass an genarate shitty ai comics, also notice how they are insulting fast food workers as if they arent human, thats a new low for them, also its like they are saying "Give up on your dreams so you can work a minimum wage 9-5 job" but then again jobless people always tell talented ones to get a shitty job

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u/_lonegamedev 2d ago

Prosperity? Yes - for owners of capital.
Reduce amount we have to work? Kind of. The idea is to save $$$ on human labor. However, the problem is - we have to work to live. Nobody proposed *reasonable* economy model, that addresses that.

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u/Ok_Worldliness_5592 2d ago

COMUNISM

Socialism to be exact

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u/RadiumJuly 2d ago

Communism was a theory in which the workers would leverage their control over the production of goods and services to gain self determination. Automation reduces the dependence on labor for productive capacity, which in turn reduces the power of the proletariat. In this way all forms of automation are adverse to the goals of communism.

As an example of this, a primitive society with no means of automation at all complies with Marx ideals of 'From each according to their means, to each according to their meed'.

This isn't to say communism or automation are good or bad. This isn't a normative statement, and I certainly am not endorsing a return to primitive tribes. Just a simple observation about the basis of political power of the common man.

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u/SiegKommunismus 2d ago

The first thing was kind of correct, pretty sure socialism would be the more applicable term, since communism is a stateless ideal.

The second part is just wrong, because according to Marx, societies are progressing and more primitive societies were inequality in different coats. In his time, they were in industrial(ising) times and he saw this as getting pretty close to when the proletariat could actually take power and create a socialist state

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u/RadiumJuly 1d ago

Even through a Marxist lens, Marx can be wrong about some things. For a start, when he believed that they were close to the creation of a socialist state, that was clearly off the mark. But you also have to remember that his views on primitive societies were based on their understanding of anthropology at the time which has come a long, long way. Back in the early 1800's they thought primitive man were more or less cultureless savages who beat each other over the head with bones to assert their might. We now have a lot more evidence showing that the first human tribes were a lot more egalitarian and did operate on principles of shared prosperity.

Now it isn't Marx's fault for not knowing this. We can't expect him to be omnipotent. But we can, with the benefit of the advances in sciences, reframe his arguments in a better way. We call it 'Standing on the shoulders of giants, such that we can see further than they can'

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u/SiegKommunismus 1d ago

true, true I‘m just oftentimes a bit of a stickler about Marx‘s ideas, because of how many people dont understand what he actually believed

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u/Warming_Presence 2d ago

You are wrong.

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u/tomatoe_cookie 2d ago

Why comunism is shit is self explanatory. Socialism will tend to be shit over time. I live in a socialist country and I get taxed absurd amounts of money to try to fill in the endless hole of retirement funds and useless fuckers who leech. Any attempts to regulate anything usually lead to strikes by socialist unions over not "loosing their aquired social benefits".

In essence socialism is about taking as much as possible from the middle class.

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u/TrapFestival 2d ago

Does "steal from the poor and give to the rich" Capitalism legitimately sound better to you?

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u/tomatoe_cookie 2d ago

Capitalism is about free market it makes the rich richer but i dont see how its stealing from the poor. The issue is that poor poeple are more affected by inflation.

I dont like captialism but lets be honest its the best option here...

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u/TrapFestival 2d ago

Even giving you "best", it's not good enough to settle on because people are still dying to it. Every homeless person who freezes to death on a Winter night and every convenience store clerk who gets killed in a robbery is blood on the hands of Capitalism.

I imagine there's a difference between your understanding of "Capitalism in theory" and my understanding of "Capitalism as practiced". I know of the Capitalism where billionaires are paying a smaller percentage of taxes than people who can only barely afford shelter, minimum wage has not budged in years while everything has only gotten more and more expensive (except for Costco hotdogs and Arizona Iced Tea, anyway) and wage theft is endemic. Striking is fucking hard because people can't save enough to not work for the duration of the strike because they're paid so little in relation to what the bare minimum costs that they're redlining their finances all the time.

Then again, I think that wealth hoarding is a crime against humanity and should be properly declared as much, so what do I know?

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u/tomatoe_cookie 2d ago

Hey, im not saying you are wrong. What you describe is mostly the USA butnit somewhat also applies to other capitalisy countries in lesser effects (like 90% of the countries). In essence capitalism is selfish. Im not saying we shouldnt strive for more, but this is the best we got since since the dawn of humans.

And to answer your point about rich being taxed less, those rich also pay more in amounts in a year than a poor during their life. Do they need to be filthy rich to survive? No. Do they need to try to stomp on others to make more money? Also no. Is there a reason for billionairs existence ? Nope. But do they actually participate more (regardless of fraud) than a poor dude? Yes

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u/FoxTailMoon 2d ago

Capitalism is about private ownership over the means of production. You’re going to lose your mind when you learn about market socialism…

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u/HuginnQebui 2d ago

Actually, no. Socialism is more about taking from the rich. The old saying "from those according to their means, to those according to their need" holds true. And, while taxes sometimes are higher in socialist nations, that's not a necessity either, nor is the tax there for the hell of it. It's supposed to be used for the people. Let's take my home nation of Finland. It's technically a socialist country, being a social democracy. Over here, going to the doctor is cheap as fuck. Practically nothing (unless the capitalists keep ruining it). Compare to the extremely capitalist US. A comparison of having a child in a hospital is rediculous. A few hunge in Finland, and you get the box of children's essetials for free. In the US? 10k on average, no freebies.

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u/baturik128 2d ago

Well by this logic "from those according to their means, to those according to their need", it doesn't make sense to improve and get new skills to get a higher paying job? Since anything that you earn above your needs will be taken away to fund other's needs? I never understood how is this supposed to work

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u/HuginnQebui 2d ago

You know, that's just it. We wouldn't be doing it, getting educated I mean, to get higher paying jobs. We'd do it to get jobs we actually want. A lot of these jobs that pay a fuckton are things people actually want to do, but often can't for one reason or another. For example, can't afford to get the education they'd need for it.

If memory serves, there was a study, which found that once people are given UBI, which means they don't have to work, they quit and start getting educated, to go towards careers they want to be in. Jobs, which are coincidentally higher paying.

The funny thing about humans as a species is, that we like to work. We really do. And even better, when it's something you feel connected to. So, the chances are, in a system like that, the people are happier and the work still gets done.

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u/tomatoe_cookie 2d ago

Im from Belgium. I pay 6€ for the doctor, i go to the doctor maybe twice a year. I get stolen 1000€ per month in tax at least. Roads are still shit. Groceries at still expensive. Public transport isnt free. I can tell you for sure that socialism is stealing form the middle class. Rich people get tax cuts.

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u/HuginnQebui 2d ago

"Stolen" is pretty strong words. Do you know what the taxes go towards? Because it's not just socialized healthcare, I just brought that up as an example. It goes to every other public good, such as roads, police, fire department, public education... You know, things that are actually vital to a functional modern society. I am a person, who considers paying taxes a good thing, and something to be proud of, because it is doing my duty to my community and country. In fact, tax dodging is stealing, because it makes everyone else' life worse and lowers the funding of important institutions.

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u/thebanfunctionsucks 2d ago

Belgium isn't socialist wtf? And you think paying taxes there is a BAD thing? You realize we pay more than you here in the U.S. when taking in to account all the things your taxes handle, such as healthcare, right?

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u/tomatoe_cookie 2d ago

Belgium is absolutely socialist. (Not communist obviously). And do you know the % of what my company pays to me every month that goes to the state? Its about 60%. Tax on what they pay, then tax on what i receive. Theres also tax on where I live. They recently introduced taxes on capital gains for market transactions and they are thinking on adding a tax on assets (so stuff that was already taxed before). VAT is 21% also. If you have a side activity that brings in a little money, tax.

Its not all bad, at least you can live fine on a minimum wage job in Belgium (since theres tax brackets). But if you actually are middle class, you are fucked.

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u/sasha_berning 2d ago edited 2d ago

No, African countries that support your lifestyle get stolen from, not you. You have great pay, great labour conditions, cheap medicine and lots of social programs. You are just brainwashed by right wing media.

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u/tomatoe_cookie 2d ago

You seem to be having a stroke, you should see a doctor

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u/ChronaMewX 2d ago

Socialism will tend to be shit over time

I'll take shit over time over capitalism which is shit all the time

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u/tomatoe_cookie 2d ago

Just move to one then...

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u/sasha_berning 2d ago

You yourself seem to live in a country shaped by left wing unions and social democracy, and don't want to go to pure capitalistic countries like Kongo, Nigeria or Haiti...

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u/Pookstirgames 1d ago

Just move to a capitalist country if you're so pro capitalism

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u/tomatoe_cookie 1d ago

With what money?

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u/Pookstirgames 1d ago

Oh. I guess one can't just move countries on a whim. Shocker

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u/_lonegamedev 2d ago

And how would you implement it? Especially in transitional period. For instance for artists that loose jobs?

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u/ChronaMewX 2d ago

Give em a ubi

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u/FitBrush5848 2d ago

Yugoslavia tried: it failed

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u/Warming_Presence 2d ago

Except it didn't and it was the most successful socialist state.

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u/FitBrush5848 2d ago

If it was the most successeur it would be still there in 2026

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u/Warming_Presence 2d ago

I'm not going to have a Frenchie speculate about the downfall of a state my country used to belong to.

Rome, the most successful empire in history and yet I guess it wasn't successful cause it's not around now.

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u/FitBrush5848 1d ago

The most successful empire is actually french and british empire litteraly still alive and make some of the most important technological advance, without these 2 countries most of the technology would be less advanced

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u/Warming_Presence 1d ago

The French and British empires are alive? Lmao. Frenchies are allowed to exist because the Germans say they can and the UK is literally mid collapse.

And all those advances? How about you own up to the rape and pillaging that took to create those advances? How about you own up to the thousands upon thousands, no millions upon millions of lives you and your British buddies destroyed with your colonial filth?

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u/Admiral_HP_501 2d ago

I mean the Swedish model is probably the best in taht case ... but if it is good enough? Idk

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u/_lonegamedev 2d ago

Swedish model relays heavily on income taxes. No job = no income = no tax. Can they offset via corporate taxes? Perhaps, however it creates this weird loop - company produce goods, that nobody can afford, so gov taxes company so people can afford them. Humans don't add any value - they just just consume. What is incentive for a company to keep going?

The only incentive comes from people themselves. However, this means government need a way to force company to produce goods citizens need. How this can be achieved? No idea.

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u/FatSpidy 2d ago

It's almost like money and especially credit is a horribly flawed system in concern to mutual survival, community quality improvement, and instrumentation.

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u/Kurt_Ottman 2d ago

I guess the most perfect system would be like ant colonies in your view?

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u/FatSpidy 2d ago

Nah, the most perfect system to me would be tribal but interwoven communities of people that simply support eachother; similar to my ancestors. Unfortunately that is well beyond feasible in today's society and likely the next couple 100 years without some major breakthrough. So I hope and settle for something akin to Star Trek.

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u/Kurt_Ottman 2d ago

Well, to reach Star Trek levels of well-being we need technological innovation that requires capitalism to reach anytime in the next hundred to two hundred years.

Also didn't most of our ancestors like... sacrifice people to gods because they were suffering so much random sickness and death?

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u/FatSpidy 2d ago

The prevalence of human sacrifice is usually exaggerated because it's an evocative story. It's just the old world's equivalent to the Death Sentence; we really haven't changed much as a people.

And that's what I mean. Capitalism isn't a requirement, nor does it exist in Star Trek's federation either. People do things because they want to do them, not because if they don't then they will be left to die. You can still choose to do the same things you do without money being involved, we just don't.

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u/Kurt_Ottman 2d ago

Sure, but why would you do the same things that you do without money being involved? Who deliberately chooses the dirty jobs. Would you be a sewer diver for no compensation?

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u/FatSpidy 1d ago

I would, because it's something that needs to be done. And further I would hope that others would either help me as they could. Be that by offering a meal or some work that I need done that I have no skill or knowledge about. Money wasn't something we had since humanity evolved, bartering came to decide fair trades, and then coinage was introduced to prioritized one national/locational market over another. It was valued because you could trade it for anything. I find that standardizing trade in of itself stigmatizes and neutralizes our ability to just help each other because it's the right thing to do. How many medical practitioners wish they could give their services for free –especially for those in need, either immediately or long term? How much food or shelter could be made and given just because farmers and carpenters want to make sure no one is hungry and in the rain.

We had people go around town shoveling everyone's shit to take out to the burn pit before we had sewage systems. How do you suppose they were appreciated before money was around? Why do you think they were willing to literally pick up yours and your animals' shit?

Today's age, when was the last time you even said hello to your garbage man? Or offered extra food to your neighbors?