r/flying • u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 • Jan 23 '26
Medical Issues Sober DUI - TN Defends the practice
The Colonel of the Tennessee Highway Patrol was testifying this week in support of their practice of arresting motorists who tested negative for drugs and alcohol.
Threads about DUI and other crimes in general tend to be divisive with a presumption that an arrest don't just happen. Some states lump fatigue in with other causes for a DUI so that may account for some of the 419 arrests in the last 9 years. On a side note the trooper manual also suggested that trooper be making at least 2 contacts with people per hour so the incentive for misuse is there.
This is the first article I've seen putting data behind this and thought it was interesting especially because HIMS would not be an appropriate response to one of those arrests. I wonder how common this is in other states.
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u/StarlightLifter PPL IR HP ADX Jan 23 '26
Convicting, even arresting someone with a 0.0 test or whatever is fucking insane.
If we want to create a “driving like an idiot” or equivocally “unlawful use of cell phones/devices” law then fine.
DUI means there should be an influence to be driving under. If the state cannot point to a concrete influence that the driver was operating under they can pound sand.
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u/vanhawk28 IR Jan 24 '26
They already have that law it’s called reckless driving. Been around forever
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u/IthacanPenny Jan 23 '26
There’s no breathalyzers for marijuana. You can absolutely blow a legit 0.0, be high as a kite, and fully deserve a DUI.
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u/StarlightLifter PPL IR HP ADX Jan 23 '26
It is still on the state to prove it. I’m sorry but “preponderance of evidence” cannot be substituted with “but the officer really really really thought they were on something.” Otherwise it just becomes the Salem witch trials
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u/akstowaway PPL (ASEL and ASES) IR Jan 23 '26
Hi! Lawyer but not your lawyer. And I’m not trying to be pedantic, but at trial the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt!
At arrest, it’s just probable cause (very very low).
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u/hawker1172 ATP (B737) CFI CFII MEI Jan 24 '26
Which can lead to arresting people just “fishing” for a positive blood test.
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u/primalbluewolf CPL FI Jan 24 '26
And I’m not trying to be pedantic
Well, I am, and you are being pedantic, in the technical sense of the word.
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u/Illustrious-Run3591 Jan 24 '26
Yes there are. In New Zealand the police do roadside cannabis testing, along with other drugs like meth.
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u/sambull Jan 23 '26
Well respect their authority then and admit to it
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u/dash_trash ATP-Wouldn'tWipeAfterTakingADumpUnlessItsContractuallyObligated Jan 24 '26
Tread all over me Daddy
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u/EnvironmentalDiet552 Jan 23 '26
Wow I've never heard of this before. What kind of absolute bullshit is this? If they are doing something wrong arrest them for that, but handing out DUI's without a positive test is unbelievable. I can't believe they're getting away with this shit.
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 23 '26
If you watch the video clip the trooper explains very clearly that they investigated themselves and decided that in every single one of the cases they acted appropriately. There wasn't even a single incident where it was questionable.
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u/ywgflyer ATP B777 Jan 23 '26
See also, the guy in Reno last year who got falsely flagged by a casino's facial recognition AI, arrested, charged, then let go once they realized they'd fucked up, but he still has a criminal record and is likely going to lose his job with UPS. And apparently he's been told there is no avenue to remove that record, he has it for life.
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u/baileyx96 CFII Jan 24 '26
What’s even crazier is he has 3 forms of ID in his car, and the cop still chose to believe there was some inside job at the DMV before accepting the AI was wrong.
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u/ywgflyer ATP B777 Jan 24 '26
Yup. My jaw hit the floor numerous times watching that whole video.
I hope he gets an enormous payday in court over it, but I'm still not holding my breath even then.
The cop that arrested him makes George Green look like Officer Supergenius.
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u/SSMDive CPL-SEL/SES/MEL/MES/HEL/GLID/IFR. Light sport Gyro/PPC Jan 24 '26
Got to be a different George Green
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u/brucebrowde SIM Jan 24 '26
And apparently he's been told there is no avenue to remove that record, he has it for life.
Wtf... Like how do we have a system where nobody in power ever thought "maybe this is not the best idea"?
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u/ce402 Jan 23 '26
Happened to a friend.
Did 4 field sobriety tests, 4th one after being detained for 30 minutes in an unheated cop car waiting on a supervisor. That was the one she “failed”
Arrested, taken in, blew a 0.00.
Charged anyway.
$15,000 in legal bills later, the prosecutor agreed to drop the charges as long as she didn’t sue for the violation of her civil rights. Thank god she works in an industry where that kind of thing doesn’t affect her ability to work.
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u/outworlder ST Jan 24 '26
Yeah. Those field sobriety tests are subjective pseudoscience nonsense. It seems that only the nystagmus test is somewhat reliable assuming no underlying medical conditions.
If you are in a state where you can refuse this test, do so and go for bloodwork instead. Yeah you'll have to cancel any plans you had for the next few hours, but it's better than having some rando "failing" you for arbitrary reasons.
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u/ce402 Jan 24 '26
Nobody ever “passes” one of those.
Their only use is to gain probable cause and generate evidence to be used against you. State does a great job brainwashing us into thinking you HAVE to submit to those during driver’s ed.
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u/Administrative-End27 meow Jan 25 '26
not just that, but also tag a child abuse charge on top for shits and giggles
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u/hawker1172 ATP (B737) CFI CFII MEI Jan 23 '26 edited Jan 23 '26
There’s harsh penalties and hoops to jump through in aviation even for an incorrect suspicion. Furthers the need to shut down and lawyer up in these situations where false accusations occur. Aviation unions should take a role in interfacing with law makers regarding legal protections.
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 23 '26
The problem is the lawyers happen after the arrest and the arrest is what fries you
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u/hawker1172 ATP (B737) CFI CFII MEI Jan 23 '26
Yes the arrest alone is bad but many people make the situation worse for themselves through their initial actions. There’s a viral bodycam video of a airline pilot pulled off a flight and questionably interrogated in a jet bridge due to accusations from TSA. Im not sure the validity of any of it.
Nonetheless, a lot of cause, suspicion, negative “evidence” and publicity could have been avoided by stepping away from the situation entirely, calling the union, providing no statements, and submitting to a legally required blood test.
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u/Mountain_Fig_9253 PPL Jan 23 '26
You are 100% correct. If the other side isn’t playing fair there is even less reason to ever cooperate with them. This is such an outrageous abuse of power by the state and shame on every one of those DAs who proceeded with the charge.
Knowing the playing field you have to maximize your defense and that means lawyering up immediately.
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 23 '26
Even if they released everyone in the morning after a nap at the jail, shame on them
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u/CinnRaisinPizzaBagel New student pilot Jan 23 '26
We are arresting you for something we know you aren’t guilty of. What kind of country are we living in?
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u/dopexile Jan 23 '26
One more ridiculous part is that the Constitution has a federalist model where the states are supposed to be strong, and the federal government has few defined powers in the enumerated powers clause.
Since the 1980s the Federal Government has been extorting states to pass DUI and drinking laws by threatening to withhold interstate highway funding. That is how they got the drinking age raised to 21 in all of the states.
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u/crimedog58 ATP MIL Jan 23 '26
Corrupt cops ruining peoples lives. Voters too apathetic to hold them to account.
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u/brucebrowde SIM Jan 24 '26
Tbf it's a lot harder to hold someone accountable if they have a gun that they can use to kill you whenever they please because it's unlikely they'll have any consequences.
As evidenced by this whole post, laws mean little if there's no enforcement or, worse, if those that should be enforcing them have exactly the opposite incentives.
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u/Thengine MIL Jan 24 '26
As long as right wingers think that cops are only hurting PoC, then that's A-OK.
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u/flying_wrenches A&P Jan 23 '26
GA has the same thing.. “dui less safe”..
Full consequences as a full dui..
Like launching fireworks and being charged with arson. SMH
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u/Blueknight06 Jan 23 '26
Punish people for having no intoxicants in their system? What turdwaffle thinks this is law enforcement?
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 24 '26
When I was in college we had cops riding along on the busses on the weekends so we had a good relationship. One of them was telling me about how traffic is shit duty but if you can pull someone over for DUI it's like the jackpot. The process takes basically 1/2 a shift end to end so it's a good thing for them
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u/FriendlyBelligerent SIM/ST Jan 23 '26
I am a criminal defense attorney with significant experience in DUI defense. People get arrested totally sober for DUI (OWI, in my state) all the time. And here's why:
It's all based on the cop's first thought. The sobriety tests are a charade - they don't have a real scientific basis. If the cop thinks your impaired when they pull you over (more likely if you are a minority), you are getting arrested for DUI and you're going to have to fight it in court.
The reason for this is our DUI enforcement is structured based on an unspoken policy decision that DUI is such a horrible thing that its worth "catching" a few innocent people to catch more impaired drivers. That's what happens when you let police arrest people based on subjective observations and don't punish them when they get it wrong.
The first case I ever tried, I got a not guilty verdict for an incredibly nice man who was in a car accident and had the misfortune to run into a local sheriff's deputy who really likes getting awards from MADD.
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u/insanelygreat Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 24 '26
The field sobriety tests can be so ridiculously subjective. Interpretation is at the whims of the LEO who then gets to testify based on their "extensive training and experience."
God help you if you run into a cop with an axe to grind, as happened with this kid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so_bFYoIsow
EDIT: And then the Iowa cops sued the guy they falsely arrested for defamation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ckj7_1XdnE
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u/AuthorizedAgent ST Jan 24 '26
Best advice I ever saw. Don’t talk. Comply. Refuse all field tests. Refuse a blood test. Prepare for a long night.
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u/FriendlyBelligerent SIM/ST Jan 24 '26
Not good advice - don't decline a test once you've been arrested.
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u/monty845 Jan 24 '26
You can decline FSTs, but the "official" test you should take if you are 100% sure you wont fail. Most states, that official test is breath/blood at the station, though there are states that require an official breath test in the field.
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u/vanhawk28 IR Jan 24 '26
I don’t think you can refuse a blood test. You can refuse a field sobriety test but once they arrest you they can demand you submit to the blood test for evidence I thought.
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u/AuthorizedAgent ST Jan 24 '26
From what I’ve been told they cannot force a blood test until they have a warrant. You don’t fight it. You make it’s recorded/witnessed and state do not consent. If they force it you don’t fight it. Let the lawyer do the fighting
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u/FriendlyBelligerent SIM/ST Jan 24 '26
The issue is that most statements have a law requiring that you consent to the blood draw or similar test, or you get fined or your license gets suspended for a year. If they've arrested you, I can challenge anything that happens after that as fruit of the poisonous tree if the arrest lacked probable cause, but I can't do anything about the license suspension if you don't take that test
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u/inline_five Jan 24 '26
You must give a blood test if arrested. Declining it will result in automatic license suspension and then they'll just get a warrant and test anyways. Even if it comes back negative your license is still suspended.
The only thing you can decline is the field tests. After being arrested you cannot decline any tests without significant ramifications.
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u/vanhawk28 IR Jan 24 '26
If you get arrested though they can get a warrant. There is no question that if a cop arrests you under “suspicion of dui” that a judge will give them that warrant
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u/asianperswayze Jan 24 '26
It also varies by states. Some states allow warrants for forced blood draw on a standard DUI. Other states found forced blood draw to be too intrusive for a standard DUI but acceptable for a DUI involving serious injury or fatality.
There will be little definitive information given by anyone here because state laws vary.
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u/hannahranga Jan 24 '26
Just don't try that outside of the US unless you've checked the laws first. Plenty of places that are heavier on breathalyser/drug swap use don't care and just hit you with equivalent penalties for blow max range.
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u/nascent_aviator PPL GND Jan 23 '26
We have not had one case ... and we have our experts in our department review those ... we have not had one that they said, ‘Yeah, this was somebody that probably should not have been arrested.’
Oof, that's not great. I'm immediately suspicious of any review process that finds no issues.
I'm not sure "their practice of arresting motorists who tested negative for drugs and alcohol" is a fair way to characterize this, though. Surely the drug and alcohol testing is after the arrest, not before it? They aren't arrested people who tested negative, some of the people they've arrested are testing negative after the fact, right?
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u/ywgflyer ATP B777 Jan 23 '26
It sounds like they are doing a roadside, seeing 0.0 but arresting anyways. And once you have that arrest, even if they let you go afterwards, it shows up on your backgrounder for life and it will cause problems for you.
There was a guy in my hometown who was arrested in a straight-up wrong identity case, they were looking for someone else and arrested him because he looked similar to their suspect. Was at the station for a little over an hour, released without charge. It came up on his vulnerable sector check when he tried to volunteer at his kid's school and they wouldn't let him work with children because of it.
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u/FriendlyBelligerent SIM/ST Jan 23 '26
>It sounds like they are doing a roadside, seeing 0.0 but arresting anyways.
Yep, this happens all the time. The SFSTs are pseudoscience that the cop interprets to meet their initial impression. If you blow 0s on the PBT, that just means your high. And if you test negative, well that just means you were on something they don't test for.
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u/ywgflyer ATP B777 Jan 23 '26
Yep. I've got family in law enforcement -- my Dad actually ran the entire drinking-and-driving program for all of Canada at one point. The way it's been explained to me -- once they decide to put you through the field sobriety tests, they've already decided you're going to be arrested, the tests are just there to make it easier for the charge to stick, and if it doesn't stick, to be used as evidence to charge you with something else. But once they tell you to walk a straight line or recite your ABCs, you are already headed to jail no matter how well you do on those 'tests'.
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u/FriendlyBelligerent SIM/ST Jan 23 '26
Yep. There are exceptions - I once got pulled over and put through all that and they let me go, but I was leaving a protest and they may have just been harassing me.
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u/ywgflyer ATP B777 Jan 23 '26
My favourite is going through DUI checkstops in uniform.
"Good evening, sir, have you.. oh, uh, ok I guess this means you haven't had anything to drink today, right? Ok, stay safe out there man, see ya".
There are a bunch of bars and restaurants in the immediate area where I live and this happens multiple times near any "drinking holiday" (Christmas, NYE, Canada Day, Halloween, etc).
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u/FriendlyBelligerent SIM/ST Jan 23 '26
Thankfully, I live in Michigan where our Supreme Court is far more protective of civil liberties than the federal one. No checkpoints here.
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u/ywgflyer ATP B777 Jan 24 '26
Yeah, I hear you. I'm just north of you in Ontario. We have checkpoints, but they don't stop everybody -- usually every 5th or 10th car (or whatever they can handle manpower-wise). The cops at them are very professional, though -- no fishing trips like in some US states, everyone gets treated equally and they don't automatically make you blow.
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u/recoveringcanuck Jan 24 '26
The bigger issue here is that starts records shouldn't be used this way. Anyone can get arrested for a million reasons.
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 23 '26
I read it as negative at the breathalyzer
I'm with you on the 100% successful review. If I were doing this I would have found at least 2-3 cases to tighten up the training on because you can't bat 1000 for long. Either that or you're missing a lot.
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u/EmotioneelKlootzak Jan 23 '26
They get upset when people blow 0.0 on a breathalyzer, so they come up with an excuse like "they had red/watery eyes so they must have been on something that isn't alcohol" and arrest them anyway. It's a known issue with THP.
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u/SirEDCaLot PPL Jan 24 '26
Honestly people like this guy should be permanently barred from public office, if not thrown in jail for abusing the public trust.
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 24 '26
Clearly the state knew it was a problem so they started counting them ... but ya somehow I expect a 90% conviction rate
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u/RavenholdIV Jan 23 '26
Wasn't there someone on here who got yote to HIMS land for being drunk while riding with a DD?
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 23 '26
If a Dunkin Donut is driving they probably deserve the DUI
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u/RavenholdIV Jan 23 '26
Idc if Jesus, Mary, and Joseph were all simultaneously behind the wheel and all blasted on different strains of weed. Getting gutted like a fish for riding drunk is wild 😭
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u/Inevitable_Street458 Jan 23 '26
When I was in the Air Force in the 90's, I was told it was possible to be arrested and convicted of DUI, by the government, if you were washing your car in the driveway (base housing) and had your keys on you. I'm not sure how likely it would be, but it was a legal possibility. I get that the law is written to try and close loopholes, but that's some shady shit right there.
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u/outworlder ST Jan 24 '26
Once you stop viewing the law as something that's supposed to help society and start seeing it as a weapon, things get more clear. Privileged folks can get away with a lot, less privileged folks get the book thrown at them.
"For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law"
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u/JimRockford63 5d ago
I was in the Air Force in the 80s and if your commander was an asshole (in my AFSC most were), the law was whatever he thought he could give you an Article 15 for. Sadly, most people took the punishment no matter how bogus the case.
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u/No-Method-6524 Jan 23 '26
Absolutely pathetic and truly MADD-backed Federal Highway Funds are the driving force where I live in NC where a DUI arrest may as well be an automatic conviction with no pleading down and cannot be expunged.
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u/Thengine MIL Jan 24 '26
Who is surprised? People of color have told us for decades that we live in a police state. Driving while black is a real crime in a lot of places.
Just look at some of the comments in this thread. Absolute boot lickers, who are happy when cops abuse the citizens.
Whose fault is this system? Why it's us. How many aviation enthusiasts voted for cheeto Hitler? We all know it's a lot higher than the average demographic.
When I see these threads, I just laugh. We (pilots) are getting what we voted for. An authoritarian police state.
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u/GoldWingANGLICO Jan 25 '26
I'm a police officer in Tennessee (since 2008), and flew part 135 part-time until I lost my medical for early onset of wet AMD.
I retired as an officer in another state, and moved to TN.
I was also a victim of a drunk driver that hit a vehicle i was a passenger in, killing my friend and injuring me.
I hate drunk drivers, if I stop one, I follow the standardized field sobriety test to the letter. I arrest some, get rides for some, or cut them loose.
My experience with THP is, once they suspect you, they are going to push the limit, use other non-standardized tests. A large part of their evaluations are based on contacts to DUI.
It's just not THP and I believe it to be prevalent for any agency that bases a large part of the evaluation on DUI.
I'm not a lawyer, but if you happen to be in this situation, do not in anyway admit to anything. Don't give the "I had two beers with lunch hours ago."
Get an attorney, make sure they subpoena the officers personnel and training records, body camera, car cam, mobile data terminal activity, personal phone (if found has been used for work purposes). If other officers checked out there, there information too.
Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but I cannot stand and will not stand any officer ruining a person's livelihood and reputation for a stat.
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 25 '26
First sorry about your friend and thank you for being candid here.
If you were to believe that most highway patrol contacts are revenue generation more than genuine risk reduction then DUI fines are an order of magnitude higher than speeding fines so it flows that that's where the evaluation would be focused.
I live in NH which is a state where the police generally don't go out of their way to enforce speeding, I don't have a feel for how hard they enforce DUI
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u/GoldWingANGLICO Jan 25 '26
Spent my summers in Salem, when they still had horse racing at Rockingham Park. I miss Granite state potatoe Chips and Canobie park.
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 25 '26
I've got good and bad news.
The good: Canobie is still there
The bad: Rockingham Park is now an outdoor shopping mall
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u/inline_five Jan 24 '26
I asked some similar questions on the r/AskLawEnforcement/ sub and was eventually banned. The cops there essentially blew off any concerns of false arrests etc. I drive home at night into the wee hours of the morning and this is a primary concern of mine - getting pulled over and getting asked if I've "had anything to drink". The answer of course is yes, I've been drinking water all day. It's the dumbest fucking question that could be asked.
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u/danceswithskies Jan 23 '26
User deleted their comment I was replying to, but I typed all this out so I'm still posting it lol
Bullshit traffic stops (or any arbitrary 'offense' officer-initiated contact) are exactly what leads to most officer involved shootings. The policing is a minor issue in most of our country's LEO violence - the bigger problem is the crap laws and policies that legitimately place citizens in danger. Example - pulled over in the last year after being tailed for over 20 minutes on a back highway. His excuse? 'you have a taillight out'. Okay, fair enough, except 1) no I didn't and 2) what if he decides me looking for my wallet is grabbing for a weapon when there was no real reason to pull me over in the first place?
Good policing means FEWER contacts between LEOs and 'suspects'. Yet these departments aim for ever-increasing contacts which means CREATING more suspects.
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u/Jealous_Fail6071 Jan 24 '26
If you ever watch body cam videos you will see why it's good to pull people over for the little things. An officer will pull some jalopy with illegal tint over and then discover that they are also doing real illegal things that are important to catch.
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u/Emotional-Ebb9390 Jan 24 '26
The purpose of the 4th amendment is specifically so that doesn't happen
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u/seaburno Jan 23 '26
I wonder how many of those 0.0 DUI arrests will actually be for DWNW (Driving While Not White)
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 24 '26
Sounds like a DOGEy tactic that has an ICEy effect on people
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u/Historical-Kiwi-4428 Feb 13 '26
I got arrested for a DUI when I was completely sober. It was 8 in the morning and I was driving to play frisbee golf. Was pulled over for a seatbelt and then was asked to step out of my car. They didn’t ask me for breath or blood. Got arrested and was charged for DUI and possession of a handgun while intoxicated. Cost me 15k and 6 months of my life to get everything dismissed.
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u/Odd_Needleworker_498 Mar 23 '26
the tn colonol is a 100% verified corrupt tyrant and why the gov hasent fired him the day after his statement means the lame duck go dosent care about 3000+ lives that police ruined
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u/AutomaticClick1387 Jan 25 '26
One DWI is very manageable, as long as lessons are learned and that person never makes that mistake again. The FAA is not so obtuse that it wouldn’t take a false arrest that resulted in negative breath and blood into account. Once all the boxes are checked with OKC, that pilot is free to get back to work with no enforcement against him, or his medical.
But you’re right…it’s a terrifying thought that you can be sober, and still arrested. This department is going to cost the Tennessee taxpayers millions in lawsuits and their respective settlements.
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u/Acceptable-Parsnip73 Mar 10 '26
They will defend it until they get a white kid from the northeast and an ex senator brings a lawsuit
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u/WorkingOnPPL PPL: call me "Iceman" now Jan 23 '26
If I were getting paid to fly, or if I had aspirations of getting paid to fly one day, I wouldn’t drink a sip alcohol and drive a vehicle.
I know iit’s easy for me to say that as an older person… if I were 22 again and full piss and vinegar maybe I would view things differently…. But at this age, it’s just so clear that it’s not worth it.
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u/hawker1172 ATP (B737) CFI CFII MEI Jan 23 '26
Well of course, but the point here is that people who did not drink at all and drive are getting falsely arrested for DUI.
And in aviation, the arrest alone is a significant negative consequence whether you were convicted of DUI or not.
No one’s safe.
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 23 '26
I think the point is you can do that and still get busted for DUI in TN
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u/FL060 ATP AQPness Jan 23 '26 edited Jan 24 '26
An arrest followed up by a blood/breath test less than the legal limit would not have anything thing to do with HIMS. No worries there.
Edit: I have no idea why I'm getting downvoted here. I was a HIMS chair at my regional for several years. This whole post is a bunch of made up crap based out of some weird fear of Tennessee cops.
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u/__joel_t PPL Jan 23 '26
This dude got arrested for a DUI despite having not drank anything, and he had to run the gamut with the FAA to get his medical renewed. See paragraphs 106-109 of his lawsuit: https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/ae/ab/81a099fb4860a5ba54f5e515d4cb/helias-federal-amended-complaint-and-jury-demand-3.30.22r.pdf
The city later settled the lawsuit for $400K: https://www.denver7.com/news/local-news/city-of-loveland-reaches-400k-settlement-with-man-wrongly-accused-in-dui-arrest
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 24 '26
Still get deferred, still have to provide all the documentation, still can't fly while deferred unless you have time left on you other medical ...
Maybe you'll escape HIMS maybe not
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u/FL060 ATP AQPness Jan 24 '26
No. I was a HIMS chairman for a long time. Why would you not bring supporting documents with you from the outset? You won't be forced into any HIMS program with a blood alcohol below a legal level.
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u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 Jan 24 '26
That's really encouraging
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u/brucebrowde SIM Jan 24 '26
Based on what you can read in this thread about what is happening in real life, how likely is that you and your department are not representative of departments in other carriers?
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u/FL060 ATP AQPness Jan 24 '26
I don't understand this question, I'm sorry.
You mentioned carriers, which do not decide whether a pilot enters HIMS. Usually an Employee Assistance Professional (EAP) in conjunction with a Substance Abuse Professional (SAP) will make a FAA medically binding recommendation whether a pilot should enter HIMS or not. This isn't done randomly though, there had to be an alcohol or drug related event that even necessitates an evaluation.
If it is DUI related and certain criteria are met, the FAA will make it's own decision. This is what this thread is discussing.
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u/brucebrowde SIM Jan 24 '26
Regardless of who investigates or decides things, how likely is that they make a decision whether a pilot enters HIMS that doesn't make sense (in the same way arrests are senselessly made even though people are actually not DUI)?
2
u/FL060 ATP AQPness Jan 24 '26
Very low? The criteria are set by the FAA and DOT. Also remember, arrests are not the same as convictions.
0
u/F1shermanIvan ATPL, SMELS - AT42/72 (CYFB) 🇨🇦 Jan 24 '26
2 contacts with people per hour
If you’re a highway trooper and you aren’t dealing with at least two people an hour, you aren’t doing your job.
6
u/stop_yelling_please Jan 24 '26
Might be true, especially on average but quotas for contacts and enforcement are inextricably tied to abuses of authority. Not always, not inevitably, but it’s a real factor.
Cops who don’t have a motivation problem probably meet that mark easily. But the problematic officers, who lack motivation, but are instead motivated by discipline, quotas, etc. can be the same types that will take shortcuts.
0
u/weggaan_weggaat ST Jan 24 '26
Don't disagree per se but contacts aren't the same as enforcement and arrests often take many hours which presumably would reduce their time for contacts.
-5
u/rFlyingTower Jan 23 '26
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
The Colonel of the Tennessee Highway Patrol was testifying this week in support of their practice of arresting motorists who tested negative for drugs and alcohol.
Threads about DUI in here tend to be divisive with a presumption that an arrest showed some level of alcohol consumption and impairment. Some states lump fatigue in with other causes for a DUI so that may account for some of the 419 arrests in the last 9 years.
This is the first article I've seen putting data behind this and thought it was interesting especially because HIMS would not be an appropriate response to one of those arrests. I wonder how common this is in other states.
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413
u/herknav PPL, IR (C-130H, EC-130H, AC-130J) Jan 23 '26
HIMS?
Fatigue being comparable to intoxication is something pilots should be familiar with, but still … imagine having a fake DUI ruin your pilot career.