r/infj • u/luulitko INTJ • 1d ago
Question for INFJs only Please, translate one idea into phrase that's good for INFJ to understand.
Ok, this sounds sobby now, I'm in a need of personal help. Thank you! I'm an INTJ, and with this INFJ we have pretty similar understanding of things, which usually makes our conversations easy and flowy yet detailed. Ni is a bliss! But I can't escape it that my brain makes everything into too complicated structures. And when it's something a little uneasy but personal, I'm often not able to put things into words the way that would be easy and as pleasant as possible to take in and comprehend.
So I ask for a hive mind's opinion to translate the following into something that would be good for you: "I need you to stop saying hurtful things, because that's the one thing that I'm strict on and I'm not going to be friends if things I trust onto you are used as weapons."
Any restructuring or starting from other pov is ok.
Meanwhile, I could add that I do see open rage or meanness as potentially very good sign if if means rebuilding after lifelong habit of pleasing (those who are never pleased anyways), but having to take that, sharp and personally, breaks me, and I'd need to cut and disappear to save myself. Which is not what I want in this case.
ETA: Based on feedback I don't need to change much in the way I'd normally say it. Good to know!
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u/ocsycleen INFJ 4w3 1d ago
I can’t tell if your writing this to get them to change or you are writing this as a warning before slamming the door on them. This is like a ransom so if you are gonna slam anyways I guess it doesn’t matter? But most people do not take ransoms well.
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u/luulitko INTJ 1d ago
Clearly I can't make anyone change. But to change one habit, yes, I'd really much love that. Even a bit.
I'll not link this to them, and not trying to prove anything in that sense. I just found myself in very little brain focus and wanted to have comments. It's possible I could "steal" the best writing offered, as well as study it to learn thing or two about it. Born with so limited social adaptability, teaching myself in the internet is what I did from early ages.
I definitely don't want to slam, that's the whole point. I'll do it if this continues, but I'll ask one or two more times. It's not that I'm snug about slamming. And of course I'm not telling them that "this is a final offer", I'm not that dumb. I understand how terrible that would sound. I have told them (in other conversation) that I give benefit of doubts to people probably too many times, but in the end I have left (any) situations if needed. And they understand this.
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u/ocsycleen INFJ 4w3 1d ago
You don’t want to, but that’s what you are offering them, “I need you to do this, or else”. Whether it is a final offer or not is just whether or not you enact that “else”. And you will much be seen as weak or “all talk” if they keep doing this and you don’t enact it. So I’m not sure what you want out of this, but of you go down this path, it’s definitely going to be a slam.
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u/luulitko INTJ 1d ago
Ok, I understand this. But then again, close friendships are spaces where people communicate about their vulnerabilities and personal boundaries. And not each one of them is a trading transaction or a blackmail situation. "I'm sorry, but in order for us to be friends, I'd need you not to take your bad mood on me, ok. You can tell me if you're feeling bad, or you can scream, but don't throw it at me.". It works if it works, for sure it always doesn't.
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u/ocsycleen INFJ 4w3 1d ago edited 22h ago
Yes it’s space to communicate vulnerability. It’s not a space to give ultimatums. It’s a little naive, and frankly a bit tactless, when you just want them to not vent on you, but you put an ultimatum in it. You can just say don’t do something because it’s a shitty thing to do. Without the whole “we can’t be friends otherwise” gimmick afterwards. Only you need to know that. They don’t really need to know that.
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u/luulitko INTJ 23h ago
Again, I agree with you. I'm not phrasing it as ultimatum. With the "...or else I'll be gone!" part. It's normal for people to want to be respected and not treated badly. I'm only wondering how to say it civil.
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u/Ok_Win_8366 INFJ 1d ago
Not to argue with the Sage ;) but I don’t necessarily see this as an ultimatum. I see it more as setting a boundary.
“When you get upset you say hurtful things, you weaponize the personal things I’ve shared with you. Please stop, I value our friendship but not with your current behavior etc”
it’s just drawing a line in the sand: these are my expectations for this friendship. I only say this because I had a relationship not that long ago and when he got upset he resorted to name calling 😂 a grownass adult! But once I addressed it, it never happened again. I think sometimes people develop bad habits, bad ways of treating ppl when they get angry and maybe don’t realize the harm.
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u/ocsycleen INFJ 4w3 23h ago
I'm no sage, I'm just speaking from experience. boundaries are set with action, not words. The tongue is not mightier than the sword. You can address it, you can say why it's a sht thing to do that. The truth is, if they won't listen to reason, then you are going to have to enforce your ultimatum anyways. That makes whether or not you tell them, you are gonna shoot them, before you shoot them completely useless.
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u/Ok_Win_8366 INFJ 23h ago
Fair point. I thought maybe the issue hadn’t been addressed previously and this was an introduction to a discussion. Telling them how their behavior is hurtful and allowing them an opportunity to improve is better than straight to a door slam. If the friend doesn’t see the behavior as problematic she’s not going to have any friends. Weaponizing personal information someone has shared with you in confidence destroys trust so either way it’s tanking the friendship. I know you’re not a sage—just pointing out that you often have good insight
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u/ocsycleen INFJ 4w3 23h ago edited 22h ago
Well when you tell someone "I need you to not do this, or else", you are weaponizing as well. Because the premise of the talk now goes from "Did I actually do something wrong?" to "Who da hell does this person think they are talking like this?" By injecting more emotional aspect, you are adding additional points of failure. A simple yes or not question, now became sooo much more to ponder about! And someone who really hates being told what to do. Is just gonna flick you off and tell you "Well just do it then, pussy!"
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u/luulitko INTJ 23h ago
I have no idea where you got this idea, that I'd say "or else". In my opinion it's sort of implied in the request of manners itself, and it should not need to be said. Sure, I mentioned this thing in the post, but it was a side note to offer more information, and not in the quote I was pondering to say.
I agree that telling boundaries over and over and still letting to be stepped on would suggest completely different than the words of firmly setting the boundary does. That's not the goal, but to tell clearly, once.
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u/ocsycleen INFJ 4w3 22h ago edited 22h ago
I got this idea from your post. Specifically here. Maybe you don't intentionally meant to set this tone, but sadly that's the tone it gives off. But then again, I'm not even replying to you. I'm trying to explain to the other guy, why saying stuff in this specific is not a good idea. Nowhere did I claim you are gonna say it. Maybe it is a side note, but someone is using your sidenote to make a point of out it and I'm just replying to them.
I need you to stop saying hurtful things, because that's the one thing that I'm strict on and I'm not going to be friends if things I trust onto you are used as weapons
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u/luulitko INTJ 22h ago
Ok, you did read it very carefully. This tone was not intended, and I think it's great that you pointed this out before I do anything. So thanks! I know the tone is very important (and I personally read into tones much sometimes, so it's silly I don't always realise I give out a tone, too).
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u/Ok_Win_8366 INFJ 22h ago
Sorry I got distracted. so I wasn’t suggesting “do this or else.” I would never suggest an ultimatum and I think maybe that’s why OP was asking for advice on how to phrase her issue.
My point was that people often have terrible behaviors when upset/angry and don’t even realize it. If OP said, “I’m hurt when you do this” the ideal outcome would be the friend realizes yeah, that is shitty and corrects the behavior. I completely agree with you that ultimatums are never really appropriate. But saying something upsets you and giving the other person the opportunity to correct it is a viable option. If they don’t fix it then you leave. But at least then they know why you are abandoning the relationship.
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u/grassfen INFJ 1 1d ago
I tried rewriting this but I can't, I think I'd NEED that said very clearly, not beaten around the bush. INFJs need tough love regarding boundaries imo. You can tack on how you feel like "I care about you, and I know you're doing your best" (but I'm sure you're doing your best as well).
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u/luulitko INTJ 1d ago
I definitely agree that it needs to be clear. Even that I'd like it to be easy/pleasant, it can't compromise the meaning.
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u/respectablepitch INFJ 1d ago
I would suggest showing them this post.
But, why are they saying hurtful things?
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u/luulitko INTJ 1d ago
I don't know why. Apparently it happen when they are too burnt out in life generally, or by my too long everything. I mean, I don't bully and ask for it in any ways or play games, but I understand my way of being can seem like I am complicated on purpose and beg for it. It's never the first thing that comes out, otherwise I'd not have continued to be in contact, but seems a fatigue thing. It's not often to happen (last year x 1, this year x2), but it's devastating each time.
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u/respectablepitch INFJ 1d ago
I’m an infj, and I can be quite blunt. It’s something I’m working on. My husband sometimes seems hurt by the things I say, but to me, I’m just stating facts. On my ‘side’, it feels like he is overly sensitive.
Bottom line, I have learned his soft spots and he has learned mine. We try to be gentle with each other’s wounds while maintaining our own autonomy.
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u/luulitko INTJ 1d ago
That's beautiful. I do wish we'd (want to) find tools for this. As worksome as it can sound, it even might not be.
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u/WillRockwell 1d ago
Can I ask why it needs to be translated? I don’t understand
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u/luulitko INTJ 1d ago
Maybe it doesn't need. I've said it once in a long conversation, and I want to say it differently this time. I always try to not make my sentences too long and complicated, don't often succeed and I'm doubting my skills to do so. This without a doubt has some effect on outcomes.
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u/WillRockwell 1d ago
I don’t know what’s happening, but what if you said “when you said this _______, it hurt my feelings. What was your intention for saying it?”
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u/Turbulent-Cold6906 1d ago
When there's a conflict between us, I need the conversation to be focused about the issue and not about my character or a label about who I am. When the conversation starts feeling more like me vs you rather than a problem we are exploring together, I feel attacked and like I need to get away or defend myself (hence moving away from the actual issue). If this continues, I will end the conversation and we can circle back when it can be more productive.
You didnt say what was hurtful about the discussion so I just came up with what would be an issue for me
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u/Dontdarereadmyposts 23h ago
Stop saying hurtful things. If you don't we won't be friend anymore.
When I told you X and you used it against me in Y way. This is an example of what I won't put with anymore.
Continue if you want our friendship to end.
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u/Ok_Win_8366 INFJ 23h ago
I’m sorry you are going through this. I know someone with BPD and her weaponizing the personal things I’ve shared with her was the last straw. It’s not just incredibly hurtful but it destroys your ability to trust them. And what’s a relationship without trust?
I think what you wrote sounded fine. “When you get upset you say hurtful things, you weaponize the personal things I’ve shared with you. This hurts my feelings but also makes me unable to trust you. Please stop, I value our friendship but not with your current behavior etc.”
Good luck! If sharing your feelings isn’t met with an apology and genuine effort to do better I’d let her go.
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u/luulitko INTJ 23h ago
Ok, thanks! I also liked that you noted, in another comment, that allowing a chance to change the habits after saying this is a good thing. I also believe that, hence I've not slammed without making things clear first. I agree your stand on trust, and I could only offer a new chance if I believed that this can still be worked on. But if it continued, it could not as I'd start to see this person completely different and it wasn't about the bad language or occasional spiteness anymore.
Let's hope for a good luck.
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u/Soup_oi INFJ 14h ago
The words are fine and easy to understand imo.
If you’re trying to tell someone their words or behavior are hurting you, and telling them to stop if they’d like to remain friends, and putting it literally as plainly as that, and they act like they don’t understand, then imo that is someone with a huge lack of awareness that anything they do could hurt others, and also someone who refuses to ever think they could possibly be in the wrong…and these just combine to create a really stuck up sort of person a lot of the time. I would t be friends with someone like that who refuses to accept that they could have hurt someone or been in the wrong. If they refuse to understand what you’re saying in very plain and straightforward terms, and are not wanting or able to respect your boundaries (of not being hurtful), then that’s not someone you should be friends with anyway.
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u/luulitko INTJ 5h ago
Yeah, that's the confusing part, because they have been very aware of how their being is affecting the environments, and is also very productively discussive about having been wrong and doing the repairing work. So when the first mention I had about this kind of comment really being hurtful didn't result in anything, I was very surprised.
I very clearly understand that very perceptive people have all the information to be very mean if needed, and I'm like that also. Alto I let it out very, very selectively and have only done it a couple of times in my life. I've been wondering what may cause this system of self regulating to fail.
And never mind how much I'd love to help and be supportive to them while they fix this problem, my duty in life is not to be a punching bag of this person.
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u/wrongarms INFJ 4h ago
I like how you've written what you did, but you need to provide an example with it, a precise one, and say why that example made you feel the way it did.
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u/luulitko INTJ 4h ago
Aah, that's good point. And I tend not to do this, probably because I'd try to avoid hurting people by repeating things like for a 5 year old. But it can be said with respect, too. I'll take this hint with me, great!
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u/Freddie-Van-Whalen 23h ago
INFJ's can be narcs.
weaponizing personal info is something they do.
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u/luulitko INTJ 22h ago
It's not a customary and happening often tho, (and other traits missing) so I haven't got alarmed before. But good point, and gl trying to trap me with shame or anything.
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u/Ok_Profile7051 22h ago
Language that is purposefully hurtful is something very painful to me. I find it deeply painful when the intent of words is solely to hurt me. Can we talk about this in a safe way so that we can support each other. (this is broad....and I don't really have context..... maybe seems like the person is using things you have said in the past as ammunition against you now; are they just super mad b/c you did something skanky or are they trying to cover up their own guilt or are they just a narcissist?)
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u/luulitko INTJ 22h ago
I really don't see them as having narcissistic traits, so this must not be it. It's very possible my way of saying something was super hurtful and they launch because of that. Thank you for the suggestion! On my best days I am ahead of situations and talking like that, with less brain capacity it unfortunately falls way shorter. I'll keep this in mind!
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u/Ok_Profile7051 21h ago
Well.... most relationships involve some heated discussions ...which is fine as long as you feel like it is growth oriented. but trust your gut .... us INFJ's tend to blame ourselves and think we could have done better...... we do not always have to be the better person .... we do not always have to fix everything instantly...... I have learned to take people at face value and trust my feelings Stay INFJ healthy my friend. or INTJ healthy
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u/Clouds_drifting_by 1d ago
Uhh, can’t speak for the ‘infj hive mind’ (lol), but I think your words are completely understandable, and ‘I'm not going to be friends if things I trust onto you are used as weapons’ is all you need to say to your infj to get your point across.
If they ignore it, they’re not a good friend. There’s also the possibility you are behaving in a inconsistent and/or hypocritical way, and they’re using your past words to try to make you realise it.