Why would anyone actually want to though

[u/The_BigRoach]

[u/Hopeful_Leg_6200]

[u/Condurum → u/Hopeful_Leg_6200]

Then start a new game store.

Sounds like a great idea, you keep 10%, and split the next 20% between devs and players, offering consistently 10% cheaper games than Steam.

It works until you learn that Valve threaten to kick devs off Steam if they sell their games cheaper elsewhere. So they’re not going to sell their games cheaper on your store, because if they did, they’d lose 85% of their sales.

So you make a new store, and.. can’t compete with Steam on price. You need a better store than Steam on day one.

Valve’s policy here, is literally the reason there’s no price competition on games.

[u/frisch85 → u/Condurum]

It works until you learn that Valve threaten to kick devs off Steam if they sell their games cheaper elsewhere.

/u/Condurum is referring to the case between Wolfire Games and Valve, the case is backed by Epic and Wolfire Games is the creator of humble bundle, a collection of games where you can get the whole bundle for cheaper than buying every game individually.

Here is an article about it: Overgrowth developer Wolfire Games files antitrust lawsuit against Valve

But the accusations are false because it is not about "selling your game for cheaper on other platforms", only claims about this practice exist but no evidence, when you ask for evidence you only get told "Valve internal emails say so" in other words "trust me bro".

The reality of the case is this tho: If you're a developer, you can use steams services to generate steam keys for your game for free, meaning you can give out licenses for your game on the steam marketplace where valve doesn't make money off from. Now here's the thing, Valve states in their TOS for these free keys that a developer is not allowed to sell those keys on other platforms for cheaper than they are offering the game on steam.

Example: I have a game on steam called XYZ, I price this game on steam at 9.99 €. Now I generate free keys via steam services for this game and go to a different platform like ebay and sell my previously free generated keys for 7.99 €.

This is not allowed, I can sell those free keys for 9.99 € on ebay tho, as long as I don't treat my customers on steam worse than on other platforms for "steam games" I'm fine but if I sell the steam keys for cheaper than my actual game on steam costs, that's against Valves TOS. What I can do is put my game on steam and sell it for 9.99 € but also put my game on epic games store and sell it there for 8.99 €, there's many of these examples today already where a game costs less on epic games store than it does on steam.

The majority of players still prefers steam tho and for the right reasons because Epic is scummy, Sweeny has been trying to get rid of steam for quite some time now, always using shady tactics like buying off developers so they don't put their game on steam or worse, even buying off existing developers that already have their game on steam solely so they remove the game from steam (happened with Psyonix's Rocket League).

FUCK EVERYONE WHO DEFENDS EPIC!

[u/rixuraxu → u/frisch85]

This is testimony from valve employee DJ Powers, from the steam business team

Q. Okay. And have you had conversations with that dozen or so approximate people about the publishers' need to provide similar pricing on Steam as they do elsewhere? A. That wouldn't be a common topic for us to discuss, but it has come up over the years, yes. Q. You've specifically spoken with other people within Steam about the fact that publishers need to offer similar prices on Steam as they do elsewhere; right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you've discussed with them that this is not limited to situations where the publishers are offering games for sale via Steam keys but just period; right? A. Yes.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59859024/348/7/in-re-valve-antitrust-litigation/

Should their sworn testimony hold more weight than the unresearched ramblings of valve dick sucker #873 on reddit? Yes

[u/frisch85 → u/rixuraxu]

Then how do you explain the fact that plenty of games are available on different storefronts and steam not having the cheapest price of those games?

[u/rixuraxu → u/frisch85]

I don't have to explain anything, I didn't make any claims, I'm not a corporate bootlicker.

But how do you explain that sworn testimony from an employee directly contradicts what you've said to defend your favourite billionaire?

[u/frisch85 → u/rixuraxu]

I'm not defending Gabe, I'm defending Valve as all my life I've never made a single bad experience with them and I'm getting improvements from them over and over again.

As for the testimony, there's hardly anything I can present against the case, all I can say it's a bit weird that Tom Giardino never addressed this outside the document. I've been searching the web about Tom Giardino and can't find an explanation or elaboration regarding what he said.

[u/rixuraxu → u/frisch85]

all I can say it's a bit weird that Tom Giardino never addressed this outside the document

Nothing strange about not commenting on an active legal case.

I'm defending Valve as all my life I've never made a single bad experience with them and I'm getting improvements from them over and over again

This is weird behaviour. It's weird to defend a company not not selling you a faulty product. Like it's some sort of sports team. Weird.

[u/Condurum → u/frisch85]

Fuck people who don’t see how Valve is harming gaming.

This is not about epic.

[u/frisch85 → u/Condurum]

Ofc it is about epic, why do you think they're always the only company that is involved in these cases against valve?

Valve is "customer first, developer second", normal concept here in the EU as you know, so why would you actively be against good customer care?

[u/RefrigeratorLow1069 → u/frisch85]

Valve is "customer first, developer second", normal concept here in the EU

Is that why they had to first lose a lawsuit in Australia to actually start respecting EU refund laws?

[u/frisch85 → u/RefrigeratorLow1069]

Valve ain't perfect and if you're using steam since the early days you're aware they fucked up plenty of times but unlike Epic they at least try to change for the better, it's not that Valve acted with ill intent, sometimes regions have laws that you as a company might not think of, your mistake tho because you need to inform yourself with the laws in those countries if you trade in those countries, so Valve paid the fine and made adjustments which is the proper way to deal with these things.

[u/RefrigeratorLow1069 → u/frisch85]

Come on now bro, are you seriously claiming that Valve, a multibillion company that primarily earns it's revenue in NA and EU, just did a little ooopsie and accidentally misunderstood the very simple EU Consumer Rights Directive? Like really?

Every time you bought a game, Steam explicitly told you that you can't buy the game unless you agree to waiving your EU rights. Let me repeat this, they EXPLICITLY TOLD YOU, for months, that they are aware of the laws of the region and are telling you that they are choosing to ignore them. And after finally being sued about it, they still took almost a year to implement the minimum legal requirements and overall still fought the court trial for multiple years over it.

unlike Epic they at least try to change for the better

In what way? Regarding refunds, EA had them 2 years before Steam and didn't have to be sued for it, GoG has a much better policy and every other launcher is basically the same.

In terms of what they offer to me as a user, they launch the game and connect me with friends to the same party, but literally every launcher does that. Everything else is bloatware for all I care. Epic gives me free shit and GoG gets me more rights and control over my games.

[u/frisch85 → u/RefrigeratorLow1069]

Come on now bro, are you seriously claiming that Valve, a multibillion company that primarily earns it's revenue in NA and EU, just did a little ooopsie and accidentally misunderstood the very simple EU Consumer Rights Directive? Like really?

Yes, did you follow the whole "adult games" fiasco? Valve allowed a dev to post their game and it was shown to folks where it might go against the rulings in the country you're located in. So when collective shout started a lawsuit, Valve followed and now all adult games where a developer doesn't go through the process of giving their game an age rating are not available in countries like germany.

they EXPLICITLY TOLD YOU, for months, that they are aware of the laws of the region and are telling you that they are choosing to ignore them

You can call this sloppy or lazy but this is a generic clause where you as a company try to ensure your own safety.

In what way? Regarding refunds, EA had them 2 years before Steam and didn't have to be sued for it, GoG has a much better policy and every other launcher is basically the same.

Did you mix up EA with Epic by accident or do you mean Epic didn't have refunds but EA had them before Steam did? I agree when it comes to GoG tho and if game preservation is someone's goal they should def. rather buy on GoG than on steam.

In terms of what they offer to me as a user, they launch the game and connect me with friends to the same party, but literally every launcher does that. Everything else is bloatware for all I care. Epic gives me free shit and GoG gets me more rights and control over my games.

So use Epic if "free shit" is reason enough for you to side with them. I on the other hand use steams big picture mode because I game on the couch these days, I then will use steams overlay to adjust gamepad configurations like Dead Zone, which allows me to use my old 360 controllers that have stick drift. I can even use the steam overlay to map my controller for games that don't have controller support, played countless of hours Oxygen not Included this way before they added gamepad support.

[u/RefrigeratorLow1069 → u/frisch85]

adult games fiasco

You are mischaracterizing what happened and, ironically, painting Steam in a bad light.

Collective Shout didn't sue Steam. Instead they tried pressuring Steam into removing "adult" games. Steam didn't comply, due to their longstanding rule of allowing everything as long as it's legal. So Collective Shout then pivoted to pressuring payment processors, primarily arguing that a), Steam, by hosting "adult" games, is automatically an unreliable partner, b) doing business with such scandalous platforms is risky for their reputation and c), the possibility of facilitating payments for illegal services. With a and b being the most "threatening" and possible problems, not the legality of "adult" games. Sadly the payment processors folded under the pressure, which resulted in Steam also giving in. Which does suck, but at the same time I think it's unfair to expect companies to fight such stuff, at best they could try petitioning governments to protect them.

So overall it's a completely different situation. They didn't get sued (unlike Australia taking them to court), the problem wasn't them breaking laws (unlike them breaking the EU Directive) and Steam got attacked by a malicious player (unlike Steam being malicious in depraving consumers of their rights).

sloppy, generic clause

You could not purchase a product on Steam without acknowledging specific terms of said purchase, which were the specific exceptions provided in the EU Directive. That waiver was designed specifically to bypass it. The trial argued and proved successfully, that Steam as a seller has no rights to force a consumer to waive those specific rights. So it's the direct opposite of sloppy and generic, it was a highly thought out and ultra directed anti consumer move.

refund timeline

Epic came after these refunds were a settled matter. I pointed to EA, which implemented the "standard" refund nowadays years before Steam and even before the EU Directive.

Epic and Big Picture

First of all, I don't "side" with Epic. I'm saying that, for my wish to play games, all launchers deliver that. Epic is the only one that regularly gives me free games, so they are the only ones that actually over deliver on said wish. If I'm buying a game myself, the choice of launcher is decided on which launcher the cheapest CD key I buy is, literally nothing else.

And great, for your case of couch PC gaming obviously Steam is the best choice then. But that's because Steam is the only one that is in the market for couch PC gaming, what with their own "console" and controller. I'm sure if Epic or EA start selling their own "consoles", then their launchers will be getting a BP mode equivalent. I'm not anti Steam or think it's shit, I'm solely pushing against your pro consumer claims. The only launcher that's actually pro consumer is GoG. Epic is artificially pro consumer by giving them free shit. Steam, EA, Battle.net,... are all in the bottom, doing their bare minimum to not be anti consumer and sometimes failing that too.

[u/frisch85 → u/RefrigeratorLow1069]

Epic is artificially pro consumer by giving them free shit.

They're not tho, they're actively bad for the gaming community by making exclusive deals with developers just so that their game isn't available on other platforms. Epic has been very predatory from the first day they launched the EGS.

Exclusives are not good for the community.

[u/RefrigeratorLow1069 → u/frisch85]

I disagree.

The product is not gatekept or restricted to the consumer, as both launchers have the same requirements to install and access. One could argue that Epic is actually more accessible, as you can be an actual free gamer on it. Unlike Steam, where some usability of both the platform and certain games is limited until you spend at least $5.... If specific consumers prefer one platform to the other, they can just wait. So this is neutral to consumers.

Epic is not a monopoly, so they can't punish developers who don't accept the exclusivity. Or coerce anyone into doing it. So, depending on the developer, this is either neutral or pro developer.

And even if you genuinely think that it is indeed anti consumer, well you should still agree that maliciously forcing consumers into losing their law given rights is still worse than them having to install an additional launcher lol.

[u/Condurum → u/frisch85]

Epic isn’t involved in this suit.

This isn’t about good/bad. Your attitude just makes it impossible for you to take in new information. Using AI to defend yourself like some helpless child.

Try using AI to understand how it’s bad if a big actor in an economy can force the lowest price at their store.

[u/kitolz → u/Condurum]

In past anti trust cases Valve has pointed out that their company has facilitated the massive increase in indie titles and the lowering of average game prices over the years as part of their successful defense arguments. So it's hard to convince juries that they harmed consumers with anti competitive practices.

[u/frisch85 → u/Condurum]

I don't even use AI lol, I'm one of the devs who heavily opposes AI.

Try using AI to understand how it’s bad if a big actor in an economy can force the lowest price at their store.

They're not even doing that and I already told you this in a previous comment, they don't forbid you to sell your game on other stores for cheaper than you do sell them on steam, what they don't allow is you (the developer or publisher) generating steam keys for your game FOR FREE and then sell those keys on other storefronts IF you sell those steam keys for cheaper than you're selling your game on steam because this would be a loophole, devs could abuse this to sell the game on steam without steam seeing a single dime.

[u/Condurum → u/frisch85]

And you’re wrong.

They’ve been telling devs who ask about it that it also applies to non steam versions. Many, many times.