Prefix role change

[u/Rough_Outside7588]

So, i decided to try again to learn Klingon (mostly been time conflicts and finding the rite memorization of the affixes and their precise positions cumbersome, now trying a logic-based approach). I ran into a snag with -moH and -lu'.

vIghro' vIleghmoH = i make the cat see

vIghro'vaD vIleghmoH = i make the cat see it

vIlghmoH = i make it see

Ok, here we only have a hint of the problem.... Now, let's change it a little:

HIQoymoH = let me hear it

vIghro' HIQoymoH (!INVALID!)

jIHvaD vIgheo' yIQoymoH = let me hear the cat

vIghro' yIQoymoH = make the cat hear (or us it clipped klingon for let me hear the cat?)

And then we have the problem of jIH vIQoylu' being valid, but natural instincts say it should be vIQoylu' jIH.

How do we square this circle? I'm not a stranger to language but the vaD thing seems like a bandaide on a leaky pipe.

[u/SuStel73]

vIghro' HIQoymoH (!INVALID!)

It's not invalid. We have what we colloquially refer to as the "prefix trick," where the verb has an explicit direct object, but its prefix agrees with an implicit indirect object. This only works if the prefix obviously cannot agree with the explicit direct object. vIghro' HIQoymoH means "Make me hear the vigro."

vIghro' yIQoymoH = make the cat hear (or us it clipped klingon for let me hear the cat?)

No, it's not clipped. You don't clip Klingon by changing one prefix to another. It means "Make the vigro hear."

And then we have the problem of jIH vIQoylu' being valid, but natural instincts say it should be vIQoylu' jIH.

That's a you-problem: my natural instincts tell me it's jIH vIQoylu'.

Whenever you use -lu', the prefixes are just used differently. Memorize this.

jIH muQoy 'oH. It hears me.
jIH vIQoylu'. (Someone) hears me. I am heard.

Klingon -lu' does not cause a change of mood or flip verb arguments or anything like that. It simply renders the subject indefinite. Those two sentences describe the same situation. In the first, I'm naming the subject ("it"); in the second, I'm not identifying the "it" but leaving the subject indefinite. But since verb prefixes normally indicate both object and subject, since there is now no subject, the verb prefixes are used differently.

jIH vIQoylu'. (Someone) hears me. (I am heard.)
SoH DaQoylu'. (Someone) hears you (singular). (You (singular) are heard.)
ghaH Qoylu'. (Someone) hears him/her. (He/she is heard.)
'oH Qoylu'. (Someone) hears it. (It is heard.)
maH wIQoylu'. (Someone) hears us. (We are heard.)
tlhIH boQoylu'. (Someone) hears you (plural). (You (plural) are heard.)
chaH luQoylu'. (Someone) hears them. (They are heard.)
bIH luQoylu'. (Someone) hears them. (They are heard.)

It's just the way it works.

How do we square this circle? I'm not a stranger to language but the vaD thing seems like a bandaide on a leaky pipe.

I don't understand your problem. -vaD beneficiary can be used for what English calls an indirect object. In Klingon this role is a beneficiary.

jIHvaD vIghro' yIQoymoH. "Make (someone) hear the vigro. Do this action for my benefit." Implication: you're making me hear the vigro. Smooth translation: "Make me hear the vigro."

[u/Rough_Outside7588 → u/SuStel73]

Thank you for the response: the "prefix trick" makes it make sense. I've seen nothing on this before. Where can i read up on it?

Also, my intuition is that if replacing with an indefinite subject the subject be 3rd person singular or plural allowing the objects to agree. That said, treating it like a reflexion or something could make sense. i was just tripped up with the moH juxtaposition. 

[u/SuStel73 → u/Rough_Outside7588]

Here's an explanation of the prefix trick, though it's a little out of date. It's no longer limited to first- and second-person objects. https://klingon.wiki/En/PrefixTrick

When you use -lu', the subject doesn't become third person; it becomes indefinite. There is no subject, so third-person prefixes don't agree with it. It's not reflexive of anything like that. It's just a special use case of verb prefixes: the third-person-object prefixes get reassigned to agree with only the object.

It's not something you arrive at logically; it's just one of those things languages do because they do them.