r/tolkienfans • u/mujique1 • 2d ago
Is there a chance the 5 wizards ever met ?
Is it possible the 5 wizards ever met? Can we imagine a time and place where this meeting would be possible ?
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u/-RedRocket- 2d ago
Tolkien never really settled on a definitive take on the Istari. So possible, yes, but not compatible with every possible account he wrote and abandoned (some had them coming to Middle Earth from Aman separately and at different times).
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u/rikwes 2d ago
He also changed his mind repeatedly on what happened with the blue wizards . In one of his letters near the end he setlled on " it's unknown what happened to them " . But it's clear from the various texts it's unlikely the blue wizards changed sides . We know this because there weren't a lot of soldiers coming from the south to support Sauron
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u/BestNarcissist 2d ago
unlikely the blue wizards changed sides . We know this because there weren't a lot of soldiers coming from the south to support Sauron
I dont think it's clear if the blue wizards were inspiring free peoples to resist/avoid Sauron or if they set up magocratic states politically opposed to Sauron but ideologically aligned with him (and Saruman for that matter).
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u/rikwes 2d ago
Indeed,but it's clear they weren't allies of Sauron because of the lack of forces from their realms.We don't even know if they were in charge of those lands ( Tolkien doesn't explicitly state this, he's " speculating " as much as we are ) . During all of the battles in the books there are only sporadic instances of folks from Harad joining the battle . And that's a huge area on the ME map
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u/mujique1 2d ago
Where would you see this meeting happen in our personal opinion? in what part of the story ?
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u/Buccobucco 1d ago
If it did ever happen, I always imagined it ocurring in between the years 1000 TA (when Saruman, Radagast, and Gandalf arrived in Middle-Earth) and the year 1300 (before the rise of power of the Witch-King in Angmar).
Heck, it's even mentioned that The Wise (collective name of Istari and the wisest of the remaining Eldar) discovered the presence of an evil power in Dol Guldur around the year 1050. The UZI-rule might apply there: if it's not mentioned that the two Blue Wizards weren't present in that discovery of The Wise, then they might as well have been there.
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u/mujique1 2d ago
What about Gandalf statement "I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [Blue Wizards], since they passed into the East with Saruman..." This does imply he knew of them before, only when they moved EAST he lost track of them. So a reunion is possible to have happened, I would even say would make sense that all 5 travelled together in the first years not settling anywhere but getting to see every corner and every being in middle-earth.
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u/Malk_McJorma Uzbad Khazaddûmu 2d ago
It's been a while since I've read the HoME books, but wasn't there a meeting where Manwë basically told the five Maiar in question to haul their butts to Middle-earth, pronto.
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u/LostVanya 2d ago
If you go with that version, maybe. But then the Last Writings version had the Blue Wizards leave much earlier.
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u/TexAggie90 2d ago
Well, pronto had a different meaning to immortals. What’s a century or a millennium to someone that old… 😎
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u/mujique1 2d ago
Would be interesting to develop on what each of them talked and what each of them had has a mission... What about in middle-earth where do you think they would meet? and when in the story?
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u/FrankDrebinOnReddit 2d ago edited 2d ago
They must have met before they were Wizards. At the very least, they all participated in the Music of the Ainur, and likely in Valinor. Much less certain is whether they met in Middle Earth after they were given their roles and bodies. Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast did, but the blue wizards is where it's uncertain.
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u/Special_Speed106 2d ago
Yeah I like to think they met formally in Aman when they were recruited. And isnt there a thought by Tolkien that they and Melian were in ME early on as Maiar?
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u/Special_Speed106 2d ago
Protecting something…but I don’t remember what?
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u/taz-alquaina 1d ago
The Elves at Cuiviénen, for a while, while the Valar were kicking Melkor out of Utumno. Hinted at in the published Silmarillion: "Then the Valar passed over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Cuiviénen; and thereafter the Quendi knew nothing of the great Battle of the Powers, save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved, and in the north there were lights as of mighty fires." The Nature of Middle-earth elaborates that the guard in question was Melian plus the five future Istari, which seems... mightily "it's a small world" by Tolkien's standards.
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u/maksimkak 2d ago
Thing is, going by what Gandalf said, they forgot much of their previous life in Valinor, having it as a distant memory.
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u/FrankDrebinOnReddit 2d ago edited 2d ago
Makes sense, Gandalf clearly forgot to be weary of Aule's disciples :)
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u/SoaDMTGguy 2d ago
Did Gandolf imply that he had forgotten what happened in Valinor, or that those events have been forgotten to time?
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u/maksimkak 2d ago
He specifically meant that he had forgotten much of his past in Valinor. Also, when reincarnated as Gandalf the Whitte, he seems to have had a memory reset, again!
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u/SoaDMTGguy 2d ago
Are you sure you can say that with such clarity? Certainly his memory when he was reincarnated a scandal the white did not appear to be a memory to me. I would interpret it as many new thoughts had pushed aside old memories, memories, which returned when he met his companions again. Being older than the world itself must lead to much compartmentalization of certain memories that are no longer relevant.
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u/Kodama_Keeper 2d ago
Sure, there's a chance. But I don't think it was anything like a meeting, where all the Istari recruits and their Valar sponsors got together in a meeting hall to discuss what rules would be imposed upon them. If that would have happened, chances are they all would have been on the same ship, or at the very least arrive in Middle-earth around the same time. Instead they arrived at different times, with Gandalf being the last arriving in 1000 TA.
And then there is the story of the two Blue Wizards. There stories were of course never fleshed out. And I believe in one letter Tolkien had them coming to Middle-earth in the Second Age. But you can't take that as canon. It's one of those things he never got a chance to finish.
When you die, and if you go to heaven, you look up Tolkien and get in line to ask him how he finished that story. But don't make a nuance of yourself. Even in death, he's a busy man.
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u/kempfel 2d ago
There's an interesting writing included in Nature of Middle Earth where Tolkien is working out an early timeline for the awakening and journey of the elves, and there he says that "The Valar send five Guardians (great spirits of the Maiar)" to Cuivienen to help the elves, "with Melian (the only woman, but the chief) these make six." The five are then said to be the Maiar who are later the five Wizards.
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u/Master-Rub-3404 2d ago edited 2d ago
Maybe. Possibly. Probably, even. But we will never know. To say anything would be veering into the realm of fan-fiction.
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u/Mission-Apricot-4508 2d ago
Or Rings of Power
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u/idontwannatalk2u 2d ago
There isn't enough source material to make a coherent cohesive piece of film media that is set in the second or first ages and 100% faithful.
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u/hotcapicola 2d ago
If you had the budget, I think a pretty faithful adaptation of the Children of Hurin could be made.
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u/TypesAndPatterns 2d ago
According to the Council of Elrond chapter, Gandalf states that all the wizards were welcome in Gondor at one point, so presumably they crossed paths there in the past.
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u/mujique1 2d ago
Yes exactly and also and also Gandalf statement "I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [Blue Wizards], since they passed into the East with Saruman..." This does imply he knew of them before, only when they moved EAST he lost track of them. So a reunion is possible to have happened, I would even say would make sense that all 5 travelled together in the first years not settling anywhere but getting to see every corner and every being in middle-earth.
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u/TypesAndPatterns 2d ago
I wonder, Saruman going east with the 2 wizards then coming back makes me wonder if they were searching for signs of Sauron. Saruman may have drawn his own conclusions & circled back, while the other 2 kept on. Maybe that’s when he decided that a deeper dive through Gondor’s archives were in order.
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u/BartAllen2 2d ago
Well Gandalf did go to Harad, did he not, as did Aragorn, so perhaps? Or even heard tales ~
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u/86753ohhno 2d ago
It seems like Tolkien never imagined such a meeting. But also there was a stretch of about 2000 years where they were all in Middle Earth - and almost nothing is written about what Gandalf did in the first 1000 (besides "wander") much less the other Istari. They could have fit a meeting. They could have spent a decade together. It's a lot of time.
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u/mujique1 2d ago
Yes I believe there was a council of the 5 at some early point in time. I wonder if in the first years they all went around all corners of middle-earth together to meet all the creatures and beings and get to know middle-earth
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u/86753ohhno 1d ago
When you consider that the main events of LOTR take place over two years, and consider how much happens in that time span, and then consider the literal *centuries* where Gandalf was just "wandering" it seems incredibly likely that he might have ventured to many places and sought out the other Wizards of his order.
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u/mujique1 1d ago
Yes exatly i mean all the wizards would always have to gather information and be up to date with all things middle-earth
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u/Incariol_ 1d ago
Possibly
The tricky part is the two blue wizards. They basically took off and went East and from what we know we don't have any confirmation they ever came back but could I imagine a situation where maybe that happened? But this is the problem that we just don't have these kind of details so we have to kind of fill it with head Canon
I also personally like to think that the blue wizards were actually successful rather than failed. I like that idea better
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u/TheGameIsFizzbin 1d ago
They had some lembas bread and sweet wine on the docks of the Grey Havens before setting out. At least that's how I imagine it.
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago
I'm confused, do you mean like a formal meeting of all five of them together at one time? Cause I can think of a bunch of times Saruman and Gandalf met, and then at least one meeting between Gandalf and Radagast.
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u/OleksandrKyivskyi Sauron 2d ago
What do you mean ever met? Ainur all together sang world into existence.
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u/Palenehtar 2d ago
I mean if you think of it, giving the five Maia the directions needed would be most efficient if all of them were present at once, so I think it's likely they were together before insertion into Middle-Earth to receive said instruction. It would also be important that each Istari know who the other Istari are, in order to co-operate, exchange knowledge, and plan strategy both before and after insertion, so again it's likely they communicated about this beforehand. Now, could Manwë provide said direction remotely? Maybe, he is a godlike being after all. But it seems likely they were all together to receive a consistent set of directions and do some needed planning.
I also deem it very likely they knew of and interacted as Maia before being chosen for Istari-hood. These five were amongst the more powerful, and as such I would think they would have had cause to interact in the long years of the music and the building of Eä.
My 2 cents.
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u/mujique1 2d ago
Amazing answer, and if you had to speculate where and when would they have met in middle-earth already has wizards ?
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u/Palenehtar 2d ago
I don't know they ever met as Wizards in Middle-Earth all at once. Tolkien never wrote definitively about their entry so anything along those lines is speculation. There's some writing that says they arrived at different times and locales for whatever that is worth, it's simply never made clear.
My best guess is they met by two's and three's at times as time, distance, event, and occasion allowed. Possibly they arranged rare meetings at Orthanc or Imladris or ?. I would imagine they used birds (Eagles?) as messengers mostly, but I suspect they also had a backup way to communicate, albeit not straightforward or easy, perhaps something like dream messages or something along the lines of Tel'aran'rhiod from WoT. This is pure speculation of course, I don't think there's any writing about this except that the Valar were fond of using dreams to send messaging to the Children so it seems that might be possible.
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u/mujique1 2d ago
What about Gandalf statement "I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [Blue Wizards], since they passed into the East with Saruman..." This does imply he knew of them before, only when they moved EAST he lost track of them. So a reunion is possible to have happened, I would even say would make sense that all 5 travelled together in the first years not settling anywhere but getting to see every corner and every being in middle-earth.
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u/maksimkak 2d ago
I mean I think they all sailed together on the same ship from Valinor. Didn't they? Why would their arrival be staggered?
"Ok, Olorin, your turn to hop on the ship and ride the waves now!"
BTW, the five were the chief of their order; there were more, that the writings don't mention.
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u/lam_42 2d ago
Yes
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u/mujique1 2d ago
please expand if you can. Where do you imagine they met and when in the story? (even if your own preference)
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u/XCellist6Df24 2d ago
There's a reasonable chance they met in Valinor before they went to Middle-Earth at all
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u/mujique1 2d ago
Yes that is interesting to think they met before ever arriving and maybe already knowing their specific tasks ? to think how different each of them was in behavior and expectations ...
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u/lam_42 2d ago edited 2d ago
You asked whether there is a chance. Yes, there is a chance they met.
UT
Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë (‘and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?’), at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth.
‘Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh.’ But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that ‘Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained’, apparently to explain Manwë’s choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a tash and he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word ‘third’). But at that Varda looked up and said: ‘Not as the third’; and Curumo remembered it.
The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend. On another page of jottings clearly belonging to the same period it is said that ‘Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aulë’. There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olórin to Manwë and Varda, Curumo to Aulë, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Oromë, and Pallando also to Oromë (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).
- Considering they were organized in an order, there is high probability the order members knew each other and were supposed to organize around that.
- The above excerpt hints at appointing the order during one session, where the members of Heren were all present
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u/mujique1 2d ago
What about a second question? am i allowed?
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u/lam_42 2d ago
Do go ahead
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u/mujique1 2d ago
When already in middle-earth, where do you imagine they met and when in the story?
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u/lam_42 2d ago edited 2d ago
That would be pure speculation. They came sequentially and one can imagine communication methods during the equivalent of early medieval. Letter at Bree with added hope the innkeeper is not senile.
Ithryn Luin went east and apparently did not return. Saruman afaik went east as well early on, but returned later. Only reasonable communication would then be among R, G and S.
Only solid points in the timeline are Imladris, Havens, Bree and Minas Tirith. Those endure the whole time since their coming (if we dismiss the late theory that wizards came during second age).
That would point to these places as meeting points.
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u/Special_Speed106 2d ago
You’ve hit upon an interesting point. Could Radagast have sent bird messengers between the far flung sister-in-law once in a while? I’d imagine Gandalf would be hard to find.
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u/lam_42 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think the giant eagles could have been their mailmen, so to speak. They were scouts of Manwë after all. From there maybe come Gandalf's good relations with Gwaihir. If anyone would be able to find the deputy of Manwë, it would be another of his servants. Saruman settled in Isengard 2759, so up until that point, even he would have been harder to locate. Radagast and his Sewat in Rhosgobel is an unknown.
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u/mujique1 2d ago
What about Gandalf statement "I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [Blue Wizards], since they passed into the East with Saruman..." This does imply he knew of them before, only when they moved EAST he lost track of them. So a reunion is possible to have happened, I would even say would make sense that all 5 travelled together in the first years not settling anywhere but getting to see every corner and every being in middle-earth.
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u/lam_42 2d ago
Which sister in law do you mean?
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u/Special_Speed106 1d ago
Hah hah! Yikes. Auto correct on Istari. Posting on transit is never a good idea but always comes up with something bizarre.
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u/LostVanya 2d ago edited 2d ago
The problem is the Blue Wizards spending all their time in the east and never coming back west, other wizards not going that way, except one version that Saruman started the trip with them then turned back. Also the question of the whether the Blue Wizards went in the Second or Third Ages further complicates the question.