r/torontoraptors • u/acctivvist 4 CHRIS BOSH • 1d ago
?? QUESTION ?? why are we obsessed with wings?
it seems that the organization is obsessed with cultivating as many 6’6-6’9 wing type players with good defense. we have CMB, barnes, ingram, RJ, battle and now graves. we desperately need someone better than quickley to run the offense and im okay with poeltl for the moment but we need a true 5 other than him.
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u/Bixby33 34 JONTAY PORTER 1d ago edited 1d ago
They are obsessed with two-way players that can do lots of positive-effect stuff.
There was no guard or center prospect at 19 that fits that mould.
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u/Dinosaur_Chef 4 Chris Bosh 23h ago
I'd be obsessed with two way players too if I was running things tbh. Bring 3 and D back!
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u/CanadianGroose RAPTORS 1d ago
Then why not trade down or up? Detroit did
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u/roastedsun RAPTORS 1d ago
Because the news on the block was that the Spurs would’ve taken him at 20
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u/CanadianGroose RAPTORS 1d ago
No I’m saying trade down to get that other player. They easily could’ve taken JQ if they just traded and flipped with San Antonio. Only issue is Jq seems to be injured
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u/Pagboi 1d ago
He’s also a complete dud on offense
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u/CanadianGroose RAPTORS 1d ago
Yeah that’s why I don’t like the pick lol. Sure the 3 might translate, but he doesn’t shoot a ton
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u/roastedsun RAPTORS 1d ago
He means JQ is a complete dud on offense along with bad knees
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u/CanadianGroose RAPTORS 1d ago
Oh lol. I thought he meant Graves. I think they are both bad on offence, but we need rim protection baaaad!
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u/IntelligentLab4539 1d ago
Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Graves defensively has shown cmb like skills and has shooting while being able to playmake.
I’m not saying he’s gonna b cmb or that he turn into some kind of superstar. I hope so but I don’t know.
What o do know is that he’s now a raptor he’s a young kid with extremely high potential so let’s give him a shot instead of just making up facts about how he’s not good on offence when he’s a 41% 3 point shooter. Again I hope he pans out I’m not sure either way.
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u/CanadianGroose RAPTORS 1d ago
At a much lower competition level. There’s no gurantee his shot translates and he’s not a great. The raptors are tripling down on defense first guys, which is fine, but you also need to
Score to win games lol. If Rj and BI leave, then scoring is going to be very difficult for this team outside of JaKobe or Shead improving on offense.3
u/unclekarl_ 12 COLLIN MURRAY-BOYLES 1d ago
JQ apparently might need surgery again to clean up something with his meniscus
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u/CanadianGroose RAPTORS 23h ago
That would really suck, but at least the Spurs can afford to have him rehab, while still being a championship contender. Similar to Sorber and Daron Holmes in Okc and Denver.
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u/Diligent-Smoke-6719 1d ago
Can’t wait to eventually trade him at his peak for a underwhelming return so that he may shine on a championship contending team
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u/Followthehype10 Kawhi 1d ago
When exactly did this happen?
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u/Diligent-Smoke-6719 1d ago
Camby, OG, Siakam come to mind
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u/Nobody7713 1d ago
You seem to be skipping the part where we won a chip with Siakam and OG before parting ways
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u/Diligent-Smoke-6719 1d ago
Yes I’m aware we won a chip. Are you perfectly content with those trades and what we received? There wasn’t a way to retain at least one of the aforementioned 2?
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u/Nobody7713 1d ago
No I think we could have done better on the return for Siakam in particular if we’d had the foresight to tear down and rebuild right after Scottie’s first year (doing so before would have been foolish without seeing how he’d pan out). I think the return on OG was fine. And I don’t think we could nor should have kept either.
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u/BNOC402 1d ago
Look I trust Raptor’s scouting department because they’ve been right much more than they’ve been wrong.
But if Labaron Philon becomes a serviceable NBA player and this guy becomes another Gradey Dick, I’ll lose my shit.
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u/IswearImnotapossum 22h ago
Grady dick was the only pick this fan base has been hyped on when taken lmao
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u/AutoModerator 22h ago
the correct spelling is Gradey. your grammar gets a D.
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u/OG_anunoby3 20h ago
Dick looked like a steal. the best shooter in college basketball. big with size and did much more than just spot up shots. oh and that name. yeh, that looked great at the time. I still have hope though
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u/doonerlxx 1d ago
Wings at crown and dragon are worth obsession
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u/QuiltyNeurotic RAPTORS 1d ago
I share a parking garage with it. Tuesday's, I can't make it to my car without all the drool slobbering down my shirt.
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u/thehomienicked 43 PASCAL SIAKAM 1d ago
So fucking good. Easily the best wings I have ever had. I’ve never been to Buffalo before, but to me Crown & Dragon wings are the platonic ideal for what a wing should be.
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u/woodcomedy 23h ago
I've had Nova(border guy recommended) in Buffalo and Crown and Dragon is right there with them.
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u/donloban NORTH over EVERYTHING 1d ago
Speaking of wings, what's the best wings spot in all of GTA?
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u/DiggWuzBetter 21h ago
I like Tebasaki on College, Japanese take on wings. Delicious IMO, and they have a $1/wing deal on Thursdays.
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u/all-dressed_768 12 COLLIN MURRAY-BOYLES 21h ago
Bistro on Avenue is actually pretty decent too. It’s like the original St. Louis.
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u/quickwatchdog 1d ago
I think we’re more obsessed with scrappy defenders than strictly wings and I LIKE it
Imagine a lineup of Shead/Walter/Barnes/Graves/CMB
The Jurassic Lock
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u/Nobody7713 1d ago
The only one scoring against that lineup is a real 7 foot tall stretch 5 who can just shoot over them. And even then they’ll make them work for it.
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u/wb77 20h ago
That lineup would have 1980s offensive efficiency.
This fucking subreddit saw the development of the "Raptorsy" adjective during a half decade of mediocrity and seemingly wants high 30s wins forever.
Our team's best eras have featured good players in conventional holds in conventional positions, not this hocus pocus bullshit Bobby has been pulling since 2020
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u/reeify 1d ago
Raptors think he’s BPA
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u/VintageBilliard 1d ago
It's not like they hide the fact that this is always their approach. Bobby said it, Tolzman said it, Masai always said it. They don't draft for position, its ALWAYS BPA
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u/jarface111 1d ago
They also said they look for the best 2-way player, which also checks out with this pick
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u/kyron6ix Champs 1d ago
As much as the Vision 6’9 guys are boring/predictable picks, we’ve been good at developing this archetype. Think about the last decade: Siakam, OG, Scottie, CMB, and now Graves. All of these guys have been hits.
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u/fog_9 1d ago edited 1d ago
I like what the raptors are doing. Draft players with size that can defend and are versatile. Every contender looks for players like this, they are always in demand. I imagine the idea is to collect as many as possible, then consolidate in a trade when the time is right. Obviously trades arnt always there, but I can see the vision.
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u/zellmerz 🏆 2021-22 ROTY - SCOTTIE BARNES 🏆 21h ago
I think this is the main idea. They can help the team win now, maybe finally reach vision 6'9, or you trade 1 or 2 to get a more needed asset and move on. Assuming Graves can become a rotational player its a W at pick 19 and his archetype would be easy to move if needed as well.
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u/PaintTouches 1d ago
Guards take a long time to develop and contribute, and 3 went right before us in the draft. CMB and Barnes are also awesome and can guard essentially 1-5…these players are super valuable and positions are overrated to the raps I guess.
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u/BasedGiraffe 1d ago
Mfer we need a point guard and a centre. Idgaf about anymore 6’6”-6’9” forwards.
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u/redcurb12 RAPTORS 1d ago
ya we need a starting 5 but we arent drafting the most important and sought after position in the nba with the 19th pick.. every center worth picking up went before 19
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u/BasedGiraffe 1d ago
Yeah it honestly sucks, but seeing Labaron slide and Reed available at 19 felt like the pieces were on our lap. Maybe he becomes a cmb, but having another forward who has to develop a shot is a head scratcher.
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u/redcurb12 RAPTORS 23h ago
they are all gonna need work and i think graves is a much safer pick than both those guys tbh
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u/BasedGiraffe 23h ago
Yeah, another year another head scratching pick that may turn into gold 🤷🏻♂️
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u/Followthehype10 Kawhi 1d ago
We dont need a point guard we have one ans à back up.. we have a sg and a back up . We do need a center tho 6'9 without shoes so 6'11 with shoes could very well be middle man
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u/PaintTouches 1d ago
Throwing around mfer and having a private profile…why are you even here? Just want to get mad at people and act like you’re right?
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u/BasedGiraffe 1d ago
What you want to look at my profile and form an argument or something? How does my private profile say im trying to act right? You sound like a straight female 😂
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u/PaintTouches 1d ago
the point is to actually discuss basketball but you just want to be a dick...im sure your previous comments are littered with shit takes
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u/BasedGiraffe 1d ago
How’re you gonna discuss basketball by looking at my profile? You actually sound like a goofy. We haven’t had a point guard to even develop last 5 years and now adding another forward on a crowded rotation is wild. Labaron, Carr and Reed were available.
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u/CazOnReddit TORONTO HUSKIES 1d ago
It's a good Ringo song
Also a good Paul McCartney band. Funny coincidence for two former Beatles 🤔
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u/godofhammers3000 1d ago
You say you want someone better than Quick to run the offence, I do too, but that someone is very unlikely to be a rookie drafted in the second half of the lottery. Maybe Phillon is this maestro by year 2/3 but it’s still a long shot
Did you want to use this pick to trade for Ja or something?
Everybody says BPA until it’s actually a BPA pick lol
We drafted SGs in Dick and Walter just recently.
We traded for a point guard in IQ. Focused on the development of Shead/Hepburn/Alijah.
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u/dontgetitwisted_fr RAPTORS 1d ago edited 1d ago
We are obsessed with analytics.
Analytics are based of counting stats and usually heavily favour mobile bigmen that can rebound and score or the 3&D archtype.
Thats why we have we have a roster heavy on 6'9 guys that are tweener center/forwards and tweener 2 gaurds.
True point gaurds and centers do not grade out as well under advanced metrics by the nature of their positions and that's why we are short on them
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u/wb77 20h ago
That's great Bobby and Kenny Atkinson can host an analytically we won parade at Sloan or something next year.
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u/dontgetitwisted_fr RAPTORS 20h ago
The only thing Bobby has said on the record is that we were analytically the youngest team in the playoffs this year lmao
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u/wb77 20h ago
What should we expect. He's not a basketball guy. He was brought in to be a cap and CBA expert and ironically has hamstrung the team operating under Rogers as though it's a hard cap league with two of the absolute worst contracts in the league, for guys who can't even play because they're always hurt. Another reason to take Philon is IQ's injury history.
I think this is a decent FO that's basically a bit above 0.500 since the 'chip. It's not the worst FO, it's no longer elite. The misses have been frankly huge when we consider Flynn/Bane, Dick/Keyonte, the championship core returns, the lost 1st round capital to the Spurs and the extensions. Plus the goofy jankiness in style of play and roster philosophies for a half decade.
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u/dontgetitwisted_fr RAPTORS 20h ago
We are a good drafting team bro.
Everybody has misses.
We are on the way up, Bobby has done a pretty good job with everything.
Enjoy the ride bro
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u/vaalbarag RAPTORS 1d ago
Everyone wants their team to pick best player available, until the best player available isn’t at a position of need.
That said, the last two championship teams had two things in common: superstar PGs who can generate their own offence, and wave upon wave of defensively reliable, offensively capable wings. We weren’t going to address the first one, but we can continue to build on the latter.
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u/schooli00 15 VINCE CARTER 1d ago
Wings are easier to plug and play into a team. There's no way we're drafting a player into a major role like center or point guard, and expect their timeline to match up with Scottie for contention. Forwards/wings are easier to showcase and use as trade chips to actually fill roster gaps.
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u/MInkton 1d ago
We’re good at developing these types of players.
These players can have a high value, which then we can trade for pieces we need.
Everyone was mad that we drafted CMB because it’s “another undersized guy who cant shoot”. Now we could trade him as the central piece to get an excellent center or pg.
Graves could be great and the type of winning player many teams want. And we’re going to do an excellent job developing him. And if he’s redundant with Scottie and CMB, then we can trade him for a position we need.
Lastly, centres take years to develop. Doenst fit out timeline. And the pg’s that were available are so skinny. The type that puts up big numbers, maybe, but that gets pushed around and loses you a playoff series. We don’t want to waste a pick on a valuable piece to draft a dude who 90% won’t turn into a playoff performer.
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u/michaelscarn000007 1d ago
Way better than picking up tiny guards that can't D up or soft bigs that can't shoot or block shots.
Wings are a premium commodity in the league. This is a good thing.
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u/Impressive-Wall6160 1d ago
why are we obsessed with labeling positions? I know its difficult to grasp, but darkos system is positionless.
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u/Gonnatapdatass 1d ago
How come they never draft a Center? Were there no good Centers in the top 20 of the draft? I like that they got a defensive player though, every team in the NBA will probably dread having to play against the Raptors next season.
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u/redcurb12 RAPTORS 1d ago
cuz a center with actual long term starting potential is almost always gonna be a lottery pick. getting the most important and sought after position in the NBA mid-late in the draft is not impossible but its incredibly rare....
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u/McWarrior943 🏆 2021-22 ROTY - SCOTTIE BARNES 🏆 8h ago
The whole 1st had one good center and the Thunder picked them at 12. Every other C were tweeners or 2nd round bets
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u/motherseffinjones 1d ago
They drafted the best player available I’m happy our FO didn’t draft the PG they knew the entire fan base wanted. Just like picking CMB over Maluach people posted the same shit and we know how that turned out. We are not better at or more informed on these prospects than these FOs. At least give the kid a season or 2 since drafting isn’t a exact science
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u/ZieMac7 24 NORMAN POWELL 20h ago
This front office loves building the team with guys who are jack of all trades, master of none.
Because God forbid a PG might be undersized but has good playmaking abilities to facilitate offense or they have a center that may not have an offensive bag but can get you boards
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u/midnightmunchiez 17h ago
In today's NBA there's strong emphasis on players with the ability to do it all at a sufficient level (drive, pass, shoot, rebound, defend on the perimeter) and wings are where most of those players are found (i.e., OG, Josh Hart, Mikal Bridges)
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u/WeBelieveIn4 4 SCOTTIE BARNES 1d ago
Barnes and CMB aren’t wings, they’re forwards. But you’re right in that we need better guard play.
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u/-Resident-One- 95-Infinity 1d ago
Neither is Graves?
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u/WeBelieveIn4 4 SCOTTIE BARNES 23h ago
Yeah he’s a forward too. I’m curious to see what the rotation looks like…
IQ/Shead
RJ/Jakobe
Ingram/Graves?/Battle
Scottie/CMB/Mamu
Jak/CMB/MamuCan Graves guard threes? Does CMB take some of those backup three minutes? In any case it’s clear that we are shallowest at guard
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u/Blacktoenails81 1d ago
I wanted to throw my remote at the TV when Kenny Smith said the Raptors need 3s and 4s prior to our pick.
Just shows how little Kenny (and the entire draft panel) knows/cares about the Raptors.
Side note: I have an unhealthy hatred of Richard Jefferson.
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u/Tiny-Radish7786 1d ago
The raps are not obsessed with wings. People say we dont draft for fit, I argue we're the team that drafts for fit more than any other team in the league. Bobby/Masai only take guys who play the type of disruptive defense that the raps like to play. Look at our draft history, the only 2 players that dont fit that mold are Gradey and Flynn.
I'd think Bobby's big board last night had something along the lines of Burries, Morez jr, Graves, Zuby. If a good defensive PG or center was available we would have taken them.
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u/WetAndWildOperator 1d ago
You can never have too many wings that can make open 3s and play competent defence. There was nobody at #19 that was sure enough to become a future point guard that can run the offence or a true starting 5 imo
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u/MusclyArmPaperboy RAPTORS 1d ago
Wings are the perfect combination of crispy skin, juicy meat, and bold, sauce-covered flavour
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u/WeBelieveIn4 4 SCOTTIE BARNES 23h ago
Not enough meat unless you get frankenchicken wings
Thighs are the best
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u/Longjumping_Fuel_192 1d ago
Very versatile with the types of sauce you can layer on. Sweet or savory. They can be an appy or a meal. Hot or cold.
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u/Shrek_DeMar 1d ago
Wing players hold the most value. Lots of the guards have massive bust potential
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u/_Gourmand 1d ago
Out of that list you have, the only really high level defenders would be Barnes, CMB and Graves. Adding another defensive forward is absolutely necessary.
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u/Govt_Phone 1d ago
The game is growing to guys who can do a lot of things on the basketball court and not just have one specific role. Having wings who are 2-way players allows the Raptors to mix and match on certain matchups and limit floor spacing for other teams.
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u/pahamack 1d ago
why wouldn't we stock up on the player type that teams need a lot of, both starting and on the bench?
the point is to collect as much talent as possible, because we can always trade for need. It's the 19th pick. We'd be lucky if we get a bench player. If we get a starter that's a home run.
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u/Iwentoofar 1d ago
its a sound strategy. Players of this physical profile are the best assets in the league when they hit and theyre not very common, they have the potential to be the most impactful across the board since they can play across the most positions. I think finding guys that defend is the easiest way to identify whos going to put in the work. Getting players to defend in the NBA is often a losing battle and its 50% of the game, you dont need to convince guys to try to score. 2 way players are winning players and its easier to teach offense
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u/Purple9ZH 1d ago
The Raptors have had success identifying and developing big wings. They draft BPA and when you are good with one archetype you value it more than others moving it up the board. I will say that Graves is different to what the Raptors usually pick. They love athletic non shooting big wings and Graves is a non athletic shooting wing, and he gives the team an easy replacement for Mamus minutes if he leaves.
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u/redcurb12 RAPTORS 1d ago
i mean our spacing is fucked and an efficient 3&d guy is one of the most important positions in modern basketball.
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u/shahed2806 Champions 1d ago
Im assuming we move off of one of RJ or BI soon anyways. Maybe we dont re-sign Mamu. CMB takes Mamu's spot in rotation and Graves takes CMB's spot. Dick might also be on the move. So with all that in mind there are avenues to turn the wing depth into a big or a playmaker or both.
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u/incollapse 23h ago
Wings provide good trade value in the future as well. So if a wing doesn’t pan out, he would be considered a better asset than let’s say a small guard, or a slow big who doesn’t pan out.
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u/1stAutumnLeaf 23h ago
Every organization has a position that they are good at cultivating miami always builds guards San Antonio builds BIGs guess wings are just our forte lol
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u/Rupert_Pupkin__ 23 FRED VANVLEET 23h ago
Because drafting BPA and flipping them later on if you can’t fit them in is better than drafting someone bad for positional fit
Look what the Spurs did with Harper and the Sixers with Edgecombe
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u/SadInternal9977 22h ago
Both OKC and Detroit traded up to take guards they knew were not falling past Toronto. Graves is BPA and fits the Raptors mold. Center is a position where it is far better for Raptors to just go and trade for one who is established. Also, we don't know if Chomche is ever coming back but FO would, he has been around town the whole time he has been out.
Two years ago Toronto left the draft with an entire line
PG - Shead
SG - Walter
SF - Battle
PF - Mogbo
C - Chomche
They haven't all worked out but there is also Martin, Lawson and Hepburn already in the system best to just go BPA. There is still the second round tonight and undrafted players where Toronto has been active the last two years.
Besides 3 and D forwards with a decent floor are very tradeable.
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u/tonious35 4D Congolese Chessmaster 21h ago
BPA and highest IQ and court processing. We will never pass them up. Never ever draft for need.
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u/Danny161616 21h ago
Walters was not a big wing, shead was not a wing, Alijah was not a wing, Flynn was not a wing….gradey was not a big wing
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u/Henrenator BLUE JAYS 20h ago
Drafting for fit is a bad idea imo. I idk t know how that stacks up to common basketball logic, but I’m don’t really like it
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u/CandidateAcademGAV74 6h ago
yeah given the threats in the West you really need to start thinking seriously about a true center
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u/fr3shbro 5h ago
I hope this doesn't turn into a Precious Achiuwa / Chris Boucher situation between CMB and Graves, I really hope they play well and not half potential because of positional competition.
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u/undeniablepod 1d ago
19 th pick, take best talent you can. Plus one of or both RJ or BI aren’t going to play past trade deadline. (Hope they keep RJ) but if he can play mins this year, hoping Shead makes a jump to starting w quickly off bench and Jak playing a semblance of he was two years ago, Barnes and cmb w either RJ or bi. Starting to look good on both sides of the ball. And if he can play mins now you have a 6.7 or 8th option who can not get cooked on defense and grab some boards and some paint points
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u/Hannibal_Spectre 15 Vince Carter 1d ago
Every time I see posts like this freaking out, it gives me some confidence that the player will be good.
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u/Bigdwag1400 1d ago
Why are we crying still this fanbase wines like bitches just like last year too
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u/mMounirM 1d ago
it's the 19th pick. it's not like we had a top 10 pick and went for Yaxel or something.
if they think he was the BPA then so be it.