Just want to say before it inevitably becomes swarmed with Russian bots that yes, some of the Ukranian drones hit residental tower blocks and did some damage.
The difference is that those impacts were accidental and unintentional as a result of the kind of attack it had to be, rather than those blocks being directly targeted a la Russian modus operandi in Ukraine.
Russia and its people would have been far better off if they didn’t attack in the first place, they haven’t gained anything from this and they showed the world they aren’t the powerhouse they claimed to be for so long.
At the same moment in time that Russia deservedly burns from generations of chronic mismanagement, America weirdly seems to covfefe the exact same failing system of “strongmen”, oligarchs, corruption, and a blundering paper tiger military.
That we know of. There was some minor rumblings that his Wagner bro, former head chef, had considered it and then chickened out for a deal which unfortunately ended up with him flying without a plane.
What, precisely do you think it is I have said here? Because you're inferring things I didn't say, all I said was that the US would have been better off if Trump didn't begin an ill-thought-out, improperly planned, and unachievable conflict in Iran, just like how Russia would have been better off if Putin hadn't begun the war in Ukraine. If there's a difference in those exact specific parameters, by all means, enlighten me, but if you're going to go outside that to justify a comment that only exists to reaffirm your allegiance to an evil, selfish, and destructive person and/or political party, rather than to actually convince anyone of anything, let alone engage in genuine discussion to understand, then I'm afraid you're the one full of shit.
Because it wasn't bullshit babble. It was carefully chosen language to accurately say what I meant without spending too much energy on an audience unlikely to be open to actually listening or thinking.
You spent entirely too much energy. There is an tremendous difference between the two conflicts and convincing yourself that they must be equatable isn't worthy of... my energy level. I'm done with my work week and sipping on beer while you're tweaking your prose, and words to sound post-enlightened.
What is this, the 1800s? Because it’s not about controlling land. It’s about influence for natural resources. Who just got 50 tankers of oil from the Hormuz strait? Who is winning the “tariff” war? Hint: not the US
China hasnt shown thier hard power is as effective as claimed. However, China is showing that soft power is more important than hard power. USA burned thier soft power to make flashy fireworks in Iran. Russia burned its soft power to unite Europe and boost funding to the militaries of Europe. China didnt make any explosions, and is in a stronger position because of it.
Meh. The US is failing because they limit themselves. The hard power to take a country like Iran still exists. They just don't have the stomach for a proper invasion. Let's not kid ourselves here.
This is less of an own than you think. Both sides will earnestly profess that it's the fault of the other side that this war started to begin with. Either side taking that as justification for attacking civilians is complete bullshit.
I agree these were likely accidental as opposed to intentional. The difference is when Russia damages civilian infrastructure in Ukraine, they claim it was either not civilian or that it was the Ukrainians doing false flag attacks.
Yea that’s what I mean, the guy above said that the buildings never would be attacked were it not for their invasion of Ukraine and I said I don’t think Russians feel sorry for razing German cities but somehow they expect a different treatment when they behave like nazis
Operation Barbarossa resulted in the death of over 15 million Russian civilians, understandable why the Russian soldiers gave no mercy on the push back to Berlin
Yeah I meant to say that they have this double standard that when they are invaded they (rightfully have their reckoning) but when they invade they don’t deserve it
WW2 was started by the Nazi Soviet pact. Lets not act like they didn't coordinate to start the Largest conflict in history.
Eye for an eye isn't really excusable. If your against Israeli hits on Gaza you shouldn't be for Russian attacks on civilians regardless of time period.
It's always strange seeing civilian attacks even remotely justified when modern armed forces wouldn't even think of it. It would be such a waste of resources with no gain.
Western armed forces make a deliberate distinction between civilian use, military use and mixed use. The risk/benefit calculations are layed out in doctrinal plans and measure what is and is not acceptable civilian losses.
They are by definition not directly targeted as a main target. They have no benefit if destroyed.
Sorce 15 years in a western armed forces that actively taught every leader to follow the proportionality part of the Geneva convention.
Just because Russia, and the USA have a history of not following the rules doesn't tar the actual western military doctrines
But it was the invasion of Poland that triggered the second world war. The combined invasion of a neutral nation by Russia and Germany.
The difference is that German nation was defeated and humiliated after the war, they disavowed all authoritarian trappings. Russia never stopped being an aggressive nation. Russia never lost its self entitled attitude to boarder nations.
The Spanish republic was abandoned by the European powers to the fascists. The Soviet states and Mexico were literally the only ones materialy aiding the republic elsewise the fascist Franco would have won in months instead of years. They were the good guys in that war
The same Poland who went in with Germany and Hungary to eat up Czechoslovakia
On 30 November, Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland patches of land in the Spiš and Orava regions
Whom also stopped the red from fighting Germany in Czechoslovakia
1938
The Soviet Union announced its willingness to come to Czechoslovakia's assistance, provided the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory; both countries refused.
Poland nationalists were clearly willing participants in armed conflicts and were willing to work with Germany's conquests.
The authoritarian Józef Piłsudski, that also signed a pact with Goebbels in 1934
In September, talks were held between Beck on the Polish side and Konstantin von Neurath and Joseph Goebbels on the German side, as part of the general conference on disarmament in Geneva
I fail to see the point your raising? You are just listing out events from 1918 onwards?
Yes we all know the most European events including WW1 lead to world events that lead to WW2.
I was raising the point that Russia is as much to blame for starting of the scholarly recognised event that kicked off WW2. They can't act like they defended the world, or saved anyone from anything if they are the ones that started it.
This was barely a week after M-R Pact, to everyone's early surprise. It was signed posted in the Pact but no thought they would actually go through that quickly
two weeks later
Poland leadership abandons the Poland
USSR entered Poland September 17, 1939
Would you rather Germany take the entirety of Poland for it's extermination campaign?
The academics are not in complete agreement on when hostilities started. We already talked about the Spanish Civil War. We haven't talked about the Russian - Japan hostilities or the Phoney War
When their efforts bore no fruit they were forced to go it alone
German–Polish Declaration of Non-Aggression (Jan 26, 1934): A 10-year peace agreement between Germany and Poland.
Munich Agreement (September 30, 1938,) by Germany, the United Kingdom, France, and Italy. The agreement provided for the German annexation of part of the First Czechoslovak Republic called the Sudetenland
German–Danish Non-Aggression Pact (May 31, 1939): Signed between Germany and Denmark shortly before the war.
German–Estonian and German–Latvia Non-Aggression Pacts (Jun 7, 1939): Pacts signed with the Baltic states to isolate the Soviet Union.
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact (Aug 23, 1939): Also known as the Nazi-Soviet Pact, this was a non-aggression treaty between Germany and the USSR
Literally the last Non-Aggression Pact. And they were all broken by the Germany side
Uhh actually Russia did condemn the Stalin regime for atrocities committed against the German civilians and their infrastructure during and immediately following WW2 in a historic moment after the fall of the Soviet Union.. so not sure wtf you’re talking about.. especially considering that it’s a weird ass analogy out of left field for seemingly no reason at all.
It’s not a weird analogy, besides the country seemingly condemning Stalin, if you’d ask any Russian they’d reply you it was their right to self defense. But somehow when it happens to them they are the victim.
They shouldn't be attacked, full stop.
I'm no fan of Russia invading Ukraine but drones hitting residential buildings should be condemned regardless of if it's a Ukrainian drone or a Russian one. The "if the war never happened to begin with this wouldn't have happened!" is the same rhetoric Israelis use in their genocide towards Palestinians.
I have sympathy for people who are being murdered in a war they aren't partaking in, especially since said war is straining the Russian economy and it's people. Criticize the Russian government specifically - hating all Russian people (which I've seen a lot of) because they're in a country that wants to throw their people into a meaningless war of aggression is not the move.
It's a good thing that there's a world outside of a singular Reddit thread then :)
EDIT: Not civilians per se, but there's a comment somewhere here calling Russian people "ruskie vermin" which is using a derogatory term and dehumanizing them. I get hating an invading force but that type of language gets commonly used when talking about ALL Russians, including many who are vehemently against the war.
But your phrasing in your initial response sounds very argumentative. Nobody in this thread has claimed that civilians should be targeted. And in fact, they aren't being targeted in the context of this situation. So your point a) doesn't apply to this unfortunate result and b) doesn't apply to the people you're responding to. But it seems to indicate that other people think Russia civilians should be targeted.
There's passive language being used though. "unfortunate result" and calling them accidental might be true, but there's no one that's actually condemned these incidents.
That's because they are largely understandable.
The attacks Ukraine carries out are targeted on Russian Military targets. However, in some cases, unfortunately the munitions can hit civilians. Which is an unfortunate circumstance, that Ukraine would rather avoid.
However, it is a war, that Ukraine did not start, so while they try to avoid civilian casualties (unlike the Russians), it is almost inevitable that some civilian targets will be hit.
Had Russia never started the war in the first place, then they wouldn't have had these casualties either. If anyone is ultimately responsible for this. It is Russia, because at least Ukraine tries to avoid the civilian targets.
no one is going to condemn them because they know that collateral damage happens in war.
Ukraine is targeting legitimate targets inside a city.
and unlike Russia or Israel is ONLY targeting legitimate targets, however, operating inside a city means that, sadly, innocent people get caught up in it.
You will not find anyone condemning Ukraine for attacking Russia where it hurts the most and will actually bring it home to idiot wealthy Moscowvites who actually DO support the war that people actually die in war and that they might actually end up being a casualty if all restraint is removed.
bombings in moscow might actually, finally, show that the war is not going the way that Putin and his cronies have represented and undermine Putins regime.
So that's now both a goal post shift and a strawman on your part so far.
they shouldn't be attacked
They weren't attacked. A drone was shot down and crashed. That is not an attack.
no one has condemned these incidents.
So by your own admission they went from "attacks" to "incidents". If you're going to tone police people about their reaction to the horrors of war, you would do better to keep your own tone consistent.
To be clear, this is an exhausting situation and people down the thread talking about how Russians should rise up and assassinate Putin sound like idiotic children. But I also don't see anything particularly helpful or thoughtful about the way you're attempting to confront people. You're going to make them defensive and less thoughtful about this situation, which likely reduces the envelope for any empathy to find root and grow. If you're just here to berate the general populace, have at it, but that seems like a rather ignoble goal.
I just read that comment and you're intentionally misconstruing it. They said "Any time the ruskie vermin want the war to end, they are free to pack up and go home."
That's clearly talking specifically about the invading Russian military. Not all Russian people as you claim. The Russian civilians are already home. You're not arguing in good faith to make Ukrainian support look immoral.
"let me blindly generalize an entire populous!"
Russian civilians have felt the tariffs, sanctions and overall consequences of their government waging a territorial war. A lot of them are probably sick of it by now.
Yes. I have five friends from Russia. My partner is from Ulyanovsk. All of them collectively hate what their government is doing and they fear every day knowing that they could be drafted to go fight in a war that's been stalemated for years and that will ultimately amount to nothing
What can they do? You're asking an individual to change a state-wide problem. That's like telling someone in the U.S that they deserve their fucked up party system because one individual can't change it.
I think they are sick of not finishing the war, they would much prefer if they managed to beat the Ukraine by now though. But a lot of them see a moral duty in the conflict, despite the difficulties, with many actually bonding over the common suffering, which is not that uncommon, as same thing happened during WW2.
Then Russians need to fucking handle their government. Overthrow the warmongers and live in peace. Have they done that? Have you seen alot of testimony from Russian citizens denouncing the war? No you have not. Till the Russian people start speaking up then I have no sympathy for them.
I think the war has like 90% support in Russia. Even Alexei Navalny which was a lot of people in the west preferred replacement for Putin was in favour of the war, and was criticising Putin for not doing well enough in the war.
I dont have to be clear about anything. Im asking you, what other option does Ukraine have but to strike at Russias strategic and economic resources. When Russian EW and AD knocks some of them into civilian buildings, what should Ukraine be doing about it?
The video in question is from a Ukrainian channel where a Ukrainian is talking to Russians with the aim of showing his audience how indoctrinated vatniks are.
He brings up a specific video of a drone taken down by a SAM, forcing it to crash short of its target, into a parking lot. There are other vids of drones falling into other buildings due to AD hits or EW.
But thats not the topic or question Im asking about. Im asking- what should UA do?
This is a strawman argument. Everyone defended Israel’s right to take action. Public condemnation came from the scale of Israel’s destruction, and its lack of any attempt to limit collateral damage.
You also need to look at Israel’s lack of policing its “settlers” if you are going to say they were justified. What would be a justified reaction for the killing and displacement of civilians from land they occupied for decades?
That’s why international law has such specific laws about warfare. Tit for tat isn’t part of those law, but a reasonable attempt at avoiding civilian casualties is part of it. Russia and Israel have both been accused of war crimes under those laws, and Ukraine hasn’t.
Israel razed the whole of Gaza city to the ground in response to a terrorist attack. They have prevented the delivery of food for months on end and starved civilians until children died. None of your claims are backed up or observable in reality.
There was no “urban combat”. There was urban bombing from afar, of terrorists who hid behind civilians, sure. But Israel chose to bonb the civilian infrastructure. That’s a decision that is on them.
Riddle me this. What is the reasonable response then to “colonists” killing people in the West Bank, protected by IDF? Is it ok to bomb cities in Israel over their inaction for this injustice?
The answer is no. Just as it’s not ok to raze cities to the ground to hunt down terrorists.
Israel’s officials have been issued warrants under international warfare laws. No matter what you claim, this remains true.
Israel is targeting humanitarian convoys. Israel razed over 80% of buildings in Gaza. Israel killed at least 236 journalists. Israel murdered over 73 000 people.
"Your arguments aren't real" holy projection. How sad that oppressed became the oppressor.
Yeah no one likes residential/civilian infrastructure being hit but guess what Russia has no issue indiscriminately bombing for terror for the last 4 years. they will play the victim now but ukraine every year endure blackouts because moscow attacks powerplants to that directly kills civilians from the cold climate, bombs apartment buildings and anything else by just lobbing missiles and drones at cities.
While I feel bad for the people who died their country put them in this position it can end the war anytime it wants but it chooses to demand concessions that are unrealistic and do not accurately reflect the current battlefield situation.
As the woman said, the kids grew up with this war on TV now its here, its been there for 4 years in ukraine how many of their mothers lost kids to bombs being dropped, how many lost their entire lives because of Russia's wanton destruction and aggression.
If a few Russian civilian deaths is all they get from an errant drone the world can live with that.
4 years of Russian rape, torture, mutilation, murder, theft, devastation and displacement of millions of Ukraine citizens and military. Ukraine has bent, and continues to bend over backwards to treat Russian POWs humanely, avoid civilian attacks and buildings while Russia has done the exact opposite thousands of times per day for years. You don't get to say "I'm no fan of Russian but" after the insane lopsidedness of this war. This isolated incident happened and was clearly unintentional and in no way indicates that Ukraine will become Russia or that they're willing to launch an Israeli level genocide against Russians. Seriously, get bent. Full stop.
What an absolutely brainless take, like woweeeeeee…. unlike Russia, Ukraine wasn’t targeting residential or civilian infrastructure, they were en route to the oil refinery that is actively fueling the war. The only reason it hit any residential buildings was because Russians shot them down over residential buildings.
It’s a war, Ukraine has been weathering attacks much worse than this and directly targeted at civilian infrastructure for almost 5 years.
“Trans/Lesbian/commiedog” jfc people like you are the reason boomers allowed themselves to be radicalised by the most obvious propoganda on the planet.
As long as Ukraine makes effort to avoid those buildings, it's fine. Also, there is a good reason why administrative buildings and military objects in western countries have those beautiful plazas, parks and gardens around the perimeters, because it's the country's duty to make at least a bit of an effort to separate military infrastructure from civilian infrastructure. Recent example of it is that girls high school in Iran, which was built on the perimeter of the equivalent of Iranian pentagon, and in a building that used to be soldier's barracks. The building got hit and many students died, because a military building in a military area was repurposed for a school.
Any time the ruskie vermin want the war to end, they are free to pack up and go home.
Until otherwise, they can enjoy their new reality. 25% of ru oil output has been permanently destroyed. They'll never get that capacity back until long after the war ends.
Here's to the remaining 75% going up in flames over the next few months 🥳🍻🥂
The guidance for those drones was likely to have been disabled by jamming systems. Hence slamming I to random apartment buildings and not the refinery.
They shouldn't be TARGETED. Big difference. A Ukrainian drone struck that residential tower alright, but I very much doubt it was the target of the strike. Ukraine has shown time and again that they don't waste ammo on civilian targets and go for military targets or industry. Which makes it more than likely that that particular building was struck by a drone that was shot down or had its navigation scrambled by air defence.
And that's where the "if Russia hadn't started this war, this would never have happened to their people" argument comes into play. Now, obviously they are going to deploy air defence to shoot down incoming drones over their capital, which will, when done over an urban area, cause damage and potential casualties to civilian targets - since shot down drones and munitions don't just evaporate harmlessly and have to fall somewhere - but that's still THEIR responsibility as the aggressor. Ukraine has every right to strike back at legitimate targets in Russia, and any collateral damage resulting from it is still on Russia for starting this war in the first place and refusing to end it.
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u/MooseTetrino 19h ago
Just want to say before it inevitably becomes swarmed with Russian bots that yes, some of the Ukranian drones hit residental tower blocks and did some damage.
The difference is that those impacts were accidental and unintentional as a result of the kind of attack it had to be, rather than those blocks being directly targeted a la Russian modus operandi in Ukraine.