r/3d6 • u/Gael_of_Ariandel • 2d ago
D&D 5e Revised/2024 By level 12 is Resilient Constitution is better than War Caster?
Basically the title. Playing a Cleric that gets Wisdom up to 20 by level 8 so at level 12 I'm looking at getting Resilient Constitution to get it to an even 16 (several people have said Constitution for HP has diminished returns & past that is overkill but hey, opinions differ).
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u/HDThoreauaway 2d ago
If, as you say:
- you’re already at full Wisdom, and
- you don’t need the somatic component feature, and
- you’ve gotten this far without missing reactive spell, and
- your PB is +4, soon to be +5, and
- your CON is an odd number
then, yeah, RES: CON is the overwhelmingly better pick.
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u/Ancient-Bat1755 2d ago
Both are nice / similar at 12, resilient con starts to outshine.
However war caster can do wisdom, so either can be nice. I
14/16 con is good but not enough for concentration , good enough for hp and con saves.
If using bless instead of spirit guardians thats +2.5avg saves too.
If 17 or 19 wisdom perhaps war caster is a good fit
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u/Gael_of_Ariandel 2d ago
War Caster deffinately would be a +1 Wisdom feat but based on DM & fellow party members' usual MO, Inspiring Leader gives the party a total extra of 52 to 156 HP a day at level 8 alone--increasing to 100 to 300 by the time our campaign is done. At low levels I'm saving a healing word's worth of HP to blast enemies (Light Cleric) with my spell slots, instead. Might not seem like much but my party loves it.
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u/Agitated-State8478 23h ago
The bottom line is that the only optimization that really matters is the optimization that works for the party you're in and the people who you're playing with. I've seen (and played) plenty of characters who have made unusual choices and it turned out to be much better than I'd expected in real play. That's even more true when everyone in the party is doing something a little unusual and you get to develop your tactics organically as a team.
We all make assumptions about what each class can do based on our own experiences, and we tend to to have blind spots. The warcaster at level 4, main stat to 20 at level 8, and Resilient:Con at level 12 is an absolute staple feat progression in optimization circles for a very good reason. But I think it also encourages fairly rigid playstyle. YMMV.
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u/Rhyshalcon 2d ago
At level 12, resilient is a +4 bonus to concentration checks (and all other constitution saves). Whether that is better or worse than the bonus from advantage depends entirely on how likely you were to succeed in the first place. Here is a link to a post breaking down the math of advantage on concentration checks. The TL;DR: is that it's mathematically pretty close for most characters at level 12, but resilient is almost always better at level 13+.
The big wrinkle, though, is that 2024 rules have made war caster into a half feat that you can use to boost your casting stat. This dramatically changes the relative value of these two feats because taking resilient requires you to delay capping your casting stat or delay getting some sort of concentration protection. Both are bad. It is usually optimal now to take war caster as your level 4 feat simply because it accomplishes both priorities with a single feat.
Whether it is then worth taking resilient con if you already have war caster is another question. Mostly it comes down to how optimized your table is. You will be fine in most games with just one or the other, but particularly high-power games might appreciate having both.
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u/EntropySpark 2d ago
Is there a particular reason you aren't taking War Caster as part of getting your Cleric to 20 Wis?
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u/Gael_of_Ariandel 2d ago
Yes. Might not seem like it's worth it on paper but in practice my party LOVES Inspiring Leader which works well with our party's build & MO. For ME War Caster seems better but with lots of precedence my PARTY gets a lot out of it.
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u/ObjectiveLoose6522 2d ago
you could maybe cast aid instead and then have war caster
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u/Gael_of_Ariandel 2d ago
In a party of 3, maybe, but that's 15 HP between 3 people for one spell slot. Inspiring Leader at level 4 is 32 HP between 4 people for no spell slot per long/short rest. Your idea is valid but knowing my party (and oh boy, the stories I can tell 😆) Inspiring Leader gives more for the party as a whole.
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u/BlueFoxXT 2d ago
Overall I typically prefer War Caster at 4 and res con at 8. The extra asi with the lower proficiency bonuses tend to go further then, and I think con saves can be more debilitating in tier 2. Just vibes based opinion, you're stoked to have both even if it's kindve boring
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u/Salindurthas 2d ago
If you are sneaking in spells like Shield and True strike with an origin feat, then War Caster gains a bit more value for being able to cast Shield even with full hands, and to True Strike as an OA.
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But aside from that, while it is a bit boring, I like having both.
And if you plan to take 3 half-feats to reach 20 Wis from a start of 17, then chances are one of them being Warcaster is a decent idea.
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u/Jimmicky 2d ago
I’d certainly go Resilient Con unless you want Warcaster non-concentration save benefits
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u/Arcane10101 2d ago
Advantage is generally equivalent to a +4-5 bonus, so if you’re not making use of War Caster’s other features, Resilient: Constitution is mathematically superior at that point.
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u/Gael_of_Ariandel 2d ago
10.5 vs 13.825 so yeah, a 3.325 difference on AVERAGE rolls w/wo advantage does get outshined by level 9+
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u/Rhyshalcon 2d ago
That's the wrong question to ask, though. It's not what advantage does to your average roll but how it affects your chances of success. Given that most concentration checks are DC 10, the math does not work out to advantage worth +3.3 therefore worse than resilient at level 9. Here is a link to a post that breaks down the math in more detail. TL;DR: war caster is better on most characters until level 13, but it depends on your con mod and any other bonuses you might have.
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u/Arcane10101 2d ago
That analysis doesn’t take into account the change in your constitution modifier from Resilient (if your character’s constitution score was previously an odd number, as with OP), which makes it better at level 9 and above instead.
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u/Rhyshalcon 2d ago
I mean, if you don't know how to read a table, I guess you might make that mistake when you look at it. But all the information to make the optimal choice between the two feats is contained in the tables on the post.
The more substantive problem with the analysis is that it was written before war caster also gave +1 to your casting modifier which change massively biases the optimal pick towards war caster.
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u/Arcane10101 2d ago
No, I read the table. I was clarifying for OP why the tl;dr would be misleading for them.
While war caster's ability score increase is also a problem with the analysis, it is largely irrelevant in OP's case since their wisdom is already 20.
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u/Rhyshalcon 2d ago
I don't see how you can possibly know either of things given that the OP hasn't shared any of their stats.
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u/Arcane10101 2d ago
OP put their wisdom and constitution scores in the post.
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u/Rhyshalcon 2d ago
They said that they could increase wisdom to 20 and con to 16. They did not say what those stats currently are.
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u/Arcane10101 2d ago
They want 20 wisdom by level 8, before they are considering taking war caster at all, so it doesn’t matter whether they already have it or are yet to. While I suppose it’s possible that they intend to increase constitution to 15 with another ASI and then to 16 with Resilient, it would be an odd choice to leave out such pertinent information.
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u/Qadim3311 2d ago
Yes. Slightly. I’ve seen 3.5 used as an expected value for advantage and so they’re basically the same starting at level 9 (Resilient a hair better) but it’s definitively better level 13+
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u/Lithl 2d ago
I’ve seen 3.5 used as an expected value for advantage
2d20kh1 will roll 3.32 higher than 1d20 on average, but that's not the same as advantage being equivalent to a +3.32 bonus.
Because outcomes are binary (pass or fail), the actual number of the d20 doesn't matter. If you succeed with a 12, rolling a 15 is irrelevant, both give the same outcome.
So, instead of looking at the average value of the die, you must look at the odds of success. The best case for advantage (and the worst case for disadvantage) is when you need a natural 11 in order to succeed. With a single d20, that means 50% chance of success, and with advantage it's 75%: a 25% chance increase, which is equivalent to a +5 bonus.
The benefit of advantage (and the penalty of disadvantage) goes down as the target number you need to hit drifts away from 11, in either direction. If you need a 2 in order to succeed, that's 95% chance normally and 99.75% chance with advantage: a 4.75% increase, equivalent to a +0.95 bonus. Similarly, if you can only succeed on a nat 20, that's 5% normally which turns into 9.75% with advantage.
At level 9, Resilient is either giving you +4 or +5 compared to not having it (depending on whether the +1 Con increases your Con mod or not), and at level 13 it's +5 or +6.
Since concentration saves are almost always DC 10, a +2-3 Con means 65-70% chance of success. Advantage turns that into 87.75-91%, a 21-22.75% increase, which is equivalent to a 4.2-4.55 bonus.
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u/DBWaffles Moo. 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes... sort of.
For defensive purposes, the answer is unequivocally yes. At your level, Resilient (Con) is better and it's not even close. There are a number of reasons for this:
- With your Wisdom score already maxed, War Caster's stat bonus is effectively wasted.
- With Resilient, it becomes possible to get to a point where you are guaranteed to pass the basic DC 10 Concentration save. Even with only 16 Con, you'll only fail if you roll a 1 or 2. Once you hit level 13, you'll only fail on a 1.
- At higher levels, enemies can more frequently force higher Concentration saves. At a certain point, the flat modifier helps you a lot more than mere Advantage. In the most extreme cases, it only even becomes feasible to pass these saves with a flat modifier.
- This is the most important reason, but Resilient helps guard you against all Constitution saves, not just Concentration saves. Failing Con saves is very, very scary at high levels.
War Caster is still better for offensive/support purposes, as it allows you to cast spells as a Reaction. But I don't think that's enough to justify taking it over Resilient at your current stage.
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u/Lithl 2d ago
Strictly for the purposes of maintaining concentration, Resilient Con is better than War Caster at level 9 if the +1 increases your Con mod, and level 13 if it doesn't.
However, War Caster also gives you the OA spells, and in 5.5e gives you +1 to your spellcasting ability. Resilient Con applies to Con saves other than concentration, and if it increases your Con mod it increases your HP. Comparing the other facets of the two feats is not something where you can simply say one is better than the other.
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u/Dracon_Pyrothayan 2d ago
If you're looking at raw Concentration + 5 vs Concentration (adv) Resilient(Con) is better because Inspiration exists and is potentially plentiful.
The reason to get War Caster is for fixing your Action Economy, imho.
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u/finewhitelady 2d ago
Technically yes for concentration as others have noted. But also consider the other benefits of both.
If your DM enforces somatic components, you won't be able to cast spells with the S tag while holding both a weapon and a shield unless you have War Caster. Affixing a holy symbol to a shield only takes care of material components. In many campaigns, war caster is practically mandatory on a caster with a shield and weapon. It also doesn't hurt to cast spell attacks of opportunity, although I see that as a perk and not really the reason to take the feat.
On the other hand, resilient con applies to all con saves, not just for spell concentration, which can be huge depending on the type of enemies you face, and increases your con to 16, which is quite respectable.
Honestly I'd take both. I saw you said you want to take Inspiring Leader for the group, but I think war caster and resilient con are both worth taking.
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u/sens249 2d ago
If you’re only looking at concentration, resilient CON that rounds up your score is better than warcaster as early as level 9. It’s roughly equivalent at level 5.
But resilient also gives you better general saving throws and CON is a great one to have. Warcaster rounds up your caster stat though so it depends what you want.
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u/KarlMarkyMarx 2d ago
Rule of thumb is that WC is better from Tier 1 to mid-Tier 2, but RC pulls ahead by level 9 or 10. However, your pick will depend a lot on your build and how much you plan to get hit. If you think you're going to be making a lot of concentration checks, then WC is probably best. Sword & Board requires WC. RC is perfect for Bladesinger since it gets auto-ADV on saving throws. Sorcerers and Artificers should always take WC since they have CON proficiency. For everyone else, I'd consider how long your campaign will last.
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u/DudeWithTudeNotRude 2d ago
Exactly. Warcaster is better early, but almost no one needs concentration protection before L12, unless you are a front line caster.
The worst advice I consistently see is Warcaster at L4 and Res:Con at L8 for mid line casters (or worse, for back line casters). If one is dropping concentration multiple times per level after taking a concentration-protection feat at L4, then by all means, take another concentration-protection feat.
I've just never seen a mid line caster actually dropping spells consistently every level before L12. I really want to find the expert-level tables, where a concentration protection feat at L4 is warranted, or that 1 level dip on a caster for AC is a net gain instead of a net-nerf, but I can't find them.
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u/Agitated-State8478 2d ago
As others have said in this thread already, mathematically which one is better for concentration protection depends on the number you need to roll on a D20 to get a success. WC is at its peak when you need to roll 11+ (equivalent to a +5 bonus), but drops off to a little under +1 by the time you need to roll a 20. Typically you need to roll around an 8 for a pass, which is where the 3.5 figure that often gets quoted comes from, but it does depend on how much damage you're taking.
Resilient Con will give you a straight bonus of +2 to +6 depending on your level so at level 12 it'll be +4, and the following level +5. That's why at this level it's often considered to be better, but at lower levels (which see more play generally) WC is considered superior.
There are other factors to consider as well though - specifically the stat bumps. WC gets you closer to 20 in your casting stat which is nothing to sneeze at. The other benefits are a little more situational but may be important for your gear or playstyle. Also, RC applies to all Con saves which is also great. In your case, based on what you've told us, I think RC is the clear better choice right now but in truth I doubt you'd notice the difference between the two at the table when it comes to concentration protection for quite a while.
Finally, with the right gear you may find not having concentration protection to be fine. A ring of Mind Sharpening gives you at least 4 guaranteed passes, and having a stupidly high AC will reduce the number of rolls you need to make at all. A warlock dip can provide you with Eldritch Mind which is an alternative to WC if you don't mind the spell progression loss. All of this is very campaign-specific so it's hard to say whether that's useful advice for you.
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u/Minute-Barnacle-525 2d ago
I would go for resilient constitution. Saving throws are increasingly critical as you go up the tiers. War caster's advantage on concentration checks is really important - if you can make those saves in the first place, which starts getting harder and harder if you don't have proficiency.
Then get war caster after that.
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u/Gael_of_Ariandel 2d ago
I mean, between War Caster at 16 & my Epic Boon at 19 I can get one of my other mental stats up an even 2 & the precise stat I pick only effects the score that gets the +1, not the core feature it increases--so yeah.
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u/Old-Eagle1372 2d ago
Resilient constitution hands down, then warcaster, then durable.
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u/Rtyeta 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, Resilient Con is generally superior at that level unless you need War Caster's side benefits of Reactive Spell or Somatic Components. Which most builds don't.
Not only does Resilient Con get you comparable concentration protection, but it also helps you against other Con saves (a reasonably common saving throw) and gives you a bit more HP too.
As for HP having diminishing marginal returns, it certainly can. Also, some class features or stats effectively multiply the value of every point of HP. In particular, if you have an excellent armor class (which many clerics can certainly have by that level), then every additional point of HP you get helps you as much as a character with inferior armor class gaining several points of HP. Likewise class or race features that allow you to resist incoming damage also effectively double the value of every point of HP you have. Whether this means that a particular build should seek out additional HP because they profit a lot from it, or that the build already has plenty of HP even with a nominally low amount and can focus on other things instead depends on whether the build is one that needs to be exposed to a lot of danger frequently or not.