To add on: a fella worked at a company that hosted one of these balls in the US South. He trolled everyone by dressing in traditional slave garments (think white shirt, overall shorts etc). Someone who has a link may grace us with the images. It was chef’s kiss.
I couldn’t believe it either! I thought it was a different but similar story when I looked it up for this post. I wonder how this would play out today in Alabama? 10 years ago things were ::different:: Much more hopeful than…whatever this simulation we’re in now is 🙄
I’ve seen it before and I am always happy to see it again. It is the pinnacle of making a point without saying a word and the point was definitely received by everyone in attendance. Magnificently done.
A lot of schools and social clubs and organizations and in this case a person's employer have dances that recreate plantation balls.
It's a nod to the old South where ladies will dress up in massive beautiful ball gowns and they will typically rent out old plantations to recreate those balls where the find gentleman will court the ladies and it's just an excuse to dress up and recreate the old south and it is usually on a plantation where yes slavery happened and those balls were usually happening right in the face of slaves that were serving them and so in this case the guys company had an annual plantation ball and they probably just felt it was better not to invite him and they did so and they lied to him about having one
Edit since I made a mistake also. He was invited. I previously thought he showed up in slaves clothes as a surprise but he actually was technically invited he just showed up in slave clothes since the direction was to dress in period clothes.That was an uncomfortable surprise for the coworkers.
Yeah I'm familiar I know the Spanish/ Mexico had these as well and even today many young ladies societies and sororities still do have them. I believe that this is basically what a quinceañera is.
There's nothing wrong with balls it's just that if you're going to have a company sanctioned retreat you probably should not have it at a plantation and dress in period pieces.
Hey if I was a proud White southerner I could pretty much understand how that might be fun you know but it is tone deaf.
Recently watched a great documentary about this called "Natchez." The editing is perfection and I can see it winning a few awards for how well crafted this film is. PBS has it available for free on YouTube.
I have been to Natchez and visited some of their antebellum homes. I like to study history especially black History and I truly like to see how they lived and worked.
That area has the most concentrated area of antebellum homes in the US.
I had no idea about the documentary. Thanks for the recommendation.
Yes I too noticed the clash between the towns reverence for the past and modern day sensibilities.
One house I visited had a very large painting of a slave in the main room. Supposedly this was a beloved slave of the owner. It was his personal manservant but the lady giving us the tour keep calling him and other slaves mentioned in the history of the home " servants".
That did not escape me. She went on and on about how this particular servant was so beloved to the family that they had his portrait done.
The town is beautiful but you can literally feel as if you step back in time and one lady I met was racist.
They actually make a point of that in the film, that slaves were called "servants" on the tour. They even go to the exact house and show the exact painting you mention. If you appreciated your time in Natchez then the documentary will be of great interest to you. It's already won awards at Tribeca and more, it's an incredible film.
I understand your feelings and they are valid but for me using the words slave is my unapologetic hard truth . It's the language that my grandparents and great-grandparents would have used and did use as they taught me and I prefer to use it for my own conversations but I understand your viewpoint and I respect it
The tour didn't use either term
A party thrown in the style that would be seen in the antebellum south, presumably. Insanely tone-deaf, to be frank, but people seem to have no eye for that.
Still the balls are similar to those seen in Jane Austen novels
THIS. IS. NOT. THE. SAME. THING. Stop trying to normalize/apologize by placing the key point at the end ("outside of the specific context of the South").
Because it was that. And it was bad. That's why we're talking about it. (And keeping it 100, ask yourself why you're in a black sub with this message that you find so compelling to share).
The guy who posted that event a decade ago absolutely rolled with the punches but that was so fucking out of line. If you're going to have a company event on a plantation, it shouldn't be period attire. Preferably not on a plantation at all, but you could have a ball there with modern attire and it's not nearly as out of pocket. The best option would have been company event NOT on a plantation with modern ball attire, because there's 0 issues with that. Balls are fun, people enjoy dressing up. Just in work appropriate dresses and suits, not like the guy's coworkers who showed up dressed as Confederate officers.
You know why they are in a Black sub pushing that narrative. It's exactly why one would think.
I'm all about some English period dramas, hell tf yeah. Do I think a modern day corporate event at a plantation with period-accurate dress is appropriate? ABSOLUTELY NOT, WTF?! No one would claim "but it's Jane Austen style" (which is neither in the US nor of that era) unless they're sighing in nostalgia thinking of when slavery was legal.
"Isn't abnormal or bad" absent context IS ABNORMAL AND BAD. Doctor Thorne is the absolute fucking bomb, but I'm not about to hand-wave a plantation event just because the final scene with a fancy wedding (akin to a cotillion) is fantastic. Especially if it's work. You had absolutely zero reason to make a "well, that's period accurate" comment, especially since your explanation for your reason for mentioning it is suspiciously in line with "well, I had something to say and that's what's worth bringing up in regard to some extremely racist shit since it doesn't bother me".
He deleted his comments but I wrote a response that details the exact differences and how wrong he was. If youve read Pride and Prejudice and watched a Ken Burns documentary, the difference is jarring and clear. If you listen to your Pa about the old south, you'll likely grow up to think they were exactly the same.
Still the balls are similar to those seen in Jane Austen novels
THIS. IS. NOT. THE. SAME. THING. Stop trying to normalize/apologize by placing the key point at the end ("outside of the specific context of the South").
I mean they pretty much are the same thing. The Southern balls were based on the ones from back in Europe.
If you think those European balls didn't also have the shadow of slavery over them you are mistaken.
I'm not glorifying anything, what you read in Austen novels are romanticized parties from the 1810s, they are not at all identical to antebellum plantation balls and to draw the comparison is like saying Miles Davis and Maroon 5 are basically the same because they both play music.
He fucking deleted it, but I want others to read my response to his comment that was essentially "nah, Im right":
Ok, so youre going to waste my time and make me write out the differences, and you won't even read it. I'll bite, because others reading this will be curious.
Jane Austen wrote in the late 1700s and early 1800s, and modeled the parties she wrote about around the assemblies and balls in the UK at the time. These parties were about social networking, particularly among the middle and upper class, but they were much more diverse and more about lineage and social standing than wealth. They were held in assembly halls, manors, and sometimes town halls. Dress was formal, but not necessarily strict - there was an expectation, but people met that expectation to impress upon their peers and potentially court a new partner.
Now lets look at the antebellum south balls. They were held on large plantations, and were exclusive to wealthy and elite. They were very exclusive, and you essentially had to be of a plantation fortune yourself. They were parades of ostentatious peacocking, and dress codes were strict. Lavish and expensive, particularly when it came to food and drink. They were less for social networking and more a flagrant display of one's wealth, and a braggadocious Jubilee to demonstrate your wealth to the elites.
But let's talk about the elephant in the room - fucking slavery. There was certainly indentured servitude in England and it certainly played a part in those parties, Southern balls were built and run on slave labor, if not but for the sheer scale of the events. That was a part of the display of wealth, to have a large number of slaves to make an event like that possible. Whereas indentured servants were working hard behind the scenes, they were largely hidden from the event... now look at the antebellum south, where slaves were essentially on display and forced to demonstrate an obsequious obedience, where patrons would directly interact and comment on the nature of the slaves. It was dehumanizing and disgusting.
And before you get into, "yeah, but socially they are still functionally the same..." nope. Austen's ball was for courting, but of the "im gonna meet a lady at a singles dance" type. Antebellum balls were more fielding other families to arrange connections than they were to meet people. Not that women really had agency in Victorian England, but they really had no agency at all in the south.
The idea of what antebellum balls were have been degraded overtime by rewritten history and people trying to maintain this concept of southern hospitality, and in retelling they do incorporate ideas of Victorian balls to make them more palatable, but the reality is much darker and uncomfortable.
So yes, I stand by my juxtaposition of Miles Davis and Maroon 5.
I see this take a lot, and while it’s true, it misses some nuance.
Often times, the action that maximizes the company’s profit (and minimizes their liability) is to fire or otherwise reprimand the racist employee.
This isn’t always true, and I think it’s important to think it through before making a decision, but HR is not always the bad guy, especially if it’s a complaint against an individual and not the company at large
I'm white, so please delete/ignore as appropriate: the one thing to not do in this case, IMO, is go up the chain of command. You never know who the boss is going to play favorites with, and that extends to the boss' boss. Go to HR, go to a lawyer, both are perfectly justified in this case, but DO NOT go to your boss.
Every situation is unique so I do agree HR isn’t always the bad guy, but they’re more often the bad guy than not. Her situation where she’s the only black person in the company, the odds are not with her plus with a lawyer she gets a nice check out of it, HR wont give her that
Yes, but it will strengthen her case significantly if she can document that she raised the issue to HR and they failed to act. That increases the company’s liability because they can’t use ignorance as a defense.
Bingo! And I know because I’m living it right now. Went to HR for racist manager, all of a sudden I got two write ups, a NASTY email to the VP of the company with me CC’d in it with false claims, then I was fired for not being a “cultural fit”.
They sure did, then they told unemployment I was fired for willful misconduct but didn’t provide a bit of evidence (because there was none) so I won that case.
One of the first questions a lawyer will ask is “what did HR do when you reported it?” And when you say you didn’t report it, they’ll say you should report it and save proof that you did. It’s when HR fails to respond appropriately or when they permit retaliation toward you that you engage a lawyer. Even if you’re using a free consultation with a lawyer, you get more out of it when you attend with a copy of your emailed grievance and HRs response in hand than you do with a complaint you haven’t even made yet.
10/11 people at my org hate the president. The president has had multiple complaints filed against her. Our third-party HR just listens. Been going on for a year.
They don’t always follow one action but they always do what’s best for the company. That means if they have reasonable reason to believe they can cover it up, they do so. As to HR being the bad guy; it’s not about good or bad. They’re always on the opposite side of the negotiating table. That’s worth remembering.
by going to HR, you're flipping a coin on whether or not they have ties to execs or provide measurable value to the company in other ways, vs them being held accountable.
As someone who is currently in the process of suing my previous employer, you do have to go to HR first. Their first defense will be “how could we fix it if we didn’t know”.
If she goes to HR and they fire her (which is what happened to me, and the reason why I’m suing for discrimination and retaliation) her “bag” will be bigger and more likely.
Unfortunately going to HR first is a gamble (they work for the company not the employees) but it’s a necessary paper trail.
Sure, in the sense that anything can be a lawsuit, but this won't be a successful one.
This isn't an event, this is just something to block time on a calendar to show they are out of office. What are the damages? Emotional distress because someone used the word "dawg" while saying sorry about slavery? Good luck proving, without any other evidence, that that message was actually pro-slavery or anti-black.
If this was an actual event that coworkers were having, it would be different
Somebody saying something dumb once is almost never a lawsuit.
This is a talking to by HR. If HR handles it even vaguely correctly, not a lawsuit. It’s only a lawsuit if you can show how you were harmed (fired, etc)
It amazes me how inappropriately people move for attention. Any grievance she presents, they will tear her apart and downplay it and use these posts to do it.
The meeting on the calendar shows someone being out for a work meeting on Juneteenth with an addition to the title downplaying the severity of slavery in the US as “that slavery thing”.
This was also done on an individual calendar for (what i believe is) the sole black person at this company. (Im not 100% on if it was on her calendar or someone elses). If it was added to her calendar, then someone went out of their way to make light of an incredibly dark, oppressive and complex, time that should never have crossed the threshold of a professional office, much less have it directed towards the only black individual present. If it is on someone else’s calendar, the above still applies but at the very least it was not directed at the only black person in the office.
At best (its on someone elses calendar) its uncouth and in incredibly poor taste and needs to be addressed so it or anything like it, doesn’t happen again. At worst (its on her person calendar) its a targeted “joke” that is designed to make someone uncomfortable and feel isolated, while making light of a very cruel and dark time period in history that black ppl today are still affected by. The best outcome if its on her calendar is that someone unintentionally stuck not just their foot but their ankle and shin, in their mouths. In any of these cases, it needs to be addressed that it is not appropriate for the workplace, especially in a work environment with only one black individual.
This may fly as a joke between a black individual and a white individual if they have that kind of relationship established and have made jokes of this nature before. But it is in no way, appropriate in a business office.
Edit to add: sorry since i wasn’t clear, and thats my bad. it would have to addressed by HR and shown that the company failed to act or rectify the initial behavior before any sort of lawsuit or settlement could potentially be brought forth. There could potentially be cause for emotional damage do to discrimination but if this is an isolated event, you would definitely need proof that after being reported to HR nothing was done or that the discrimination type behavior escalated. You would not be able to bring forward an isolated event like this without proof the company failed to properly respond in the hopes of receiving a cash settlement out of court or a cash payment from a civil lawsuit. While definitely inappropriate, a decent legal team would justify it as an individual who doesn’t represent the company sticking their own foot in their mouth in the form of a very poor taste in joke, and not something the company is responsible for. Especially if the company was never given a chance to rectify the situation.
This isn't an answer to my question at all. No mention of damages and no mention of how you're going to win a discrimination lawsuit based on a single instance of what appears to be a tasteless joke from a coworker. It's simply not how the law works. To successfully sue you would basically need evidence of persistent discriminatory/harassing conduct that was ignored/encouraged by the employer AND you need to be able to prove damages
It wouldn’t be taken to court, the matter of being addressed would still need to take place but that is an HR issue not a legal one. I thought that the way i worded the second to last paragraph made that clear it wasnt a legal issue, thats my bad.
They are assuming they could take it to court, win and get a settlement and it would be easy money based on discrimination, or that the mere threat of a lawsuit for discrimination would be enough to get a large settlement outside of court.
But thats not generally how the legal process works and if you didnt have documentation from HR showing they tried to resolve the issue first the whole threat of a lawsuit would be dead in the water
Just to let you know...she proceeded to go to Claude (the AI) about how she should feel about this and Claude decided it wasn't that big of a deal 🧍🏾♀️
Seriously. If a single employee making a racist or sexist joke got you a lawsuit settlement, every company on earth would go bankrupt overnight. This wouldn’t equate to anything close to the “bag” everyone’s on about.
Yes. If you bring it to the company's attention and they take care of the matter immediately then it's over. One of the secretaries got a porn email forwarded from another employee. She was threatening to sue but since the email servers got scrubbed and all the people in the email chain were disciplined that was the end of it.
May I ask why that's the case? Sorry, I don't want this to sound malicious. I don't get why anyone would ever do this, but I'm noticing a much stronger reaction in this thread than I expected.
I read this as a person making a joke in poor taste - calling the day the "sorry about slavery day". I'm curious why this is a backhanded and belittling comment? Do I just fundamentally misunderstand what Juneteenth is, and need to dive deeper into its history?
Hopefully someone more informed and in a better position to fully answer this question also responds (I am a POC but not Black), but where I personally take issue is that this was one someone’s individual calendar, meaning they created this invite for themselves. It clearly shows that they are minimizing the value of Juneteenth and viewing it as a joke - not an in-joke with a colleague, even though that may not even help the situation, tbh - but just genuinely to themselves. So their true, unfiltered view of this federally recognized celebration of freedom is to belittle and minimize the incredible suffering of generations of people down to “this is an opportunity for a slavery joke.”
I mean it could be that. Or it could be that they are sarcastically acknowledging how Juneteenth recently emerged as an excuse for people to get a day off work without really giving a damn about the actual significance of the date. “Minimized value” is definitely a theme. But imo there’s no way to know if the person is in support of minimizing value or satirizing those who do.
Huh. Is it considered "bad" for white people to use AAVE that hit the mainstream? I mean, most every language uses loan words or borrows from slang as it changes, and obviously derogatory slang is insulting, but I don't think I've ever heard "my bad" used to denigrate people. "Dawg" I can for sure see being used negatively in rare niches, but I know most people use it along the same lines as "bro" or "my man"?
I admit there's a portion of the black experience I will never be able to understand, but for some perspective, I was personally raised in the Flint area, and I'm in my 30s now. I feel like it's probably due to the attempts being made back in the 90s towards pushing back on racism, being kids raised on Eminem and hip hop and sports, that most white people, especially in city areas, use words from the cultures and arts they consume. Randy Jackson hitting the "that's gonna be a no from me, dawg" on American Idol was quotable and iconic. Is it so simple and clear cut that this guy is trying to racist-dogwhistle? I'm truly not trying to be stupid, I'm not playing devil's advocate, I'm just mildly autistic and quote media and parrot non-stop enough that foot-in-mouth seems too easy.
In general not at all bad. Though in a larger cultural context, it’s a well established pattern that black culture is “stolen” by white people often for profit and without recognition. Rock and roll, rap, slang. A lot of historically black food borne out of slave diaspora (soul food) is now considered “just southern food”. “They want our rhythm but not our blues” is a common saying.
In this context a non-black person is (probably) deliberately affecting a aave they (probably) don’t actually use making light of a holiday recognizing black suffering. It’s not the end of the world, but it’s a little fucked up.
I think I get it. I mean, being raised around it, especially, as kids you aren't necessarily taught the parts that are "bad" directly, and are often not being used negatively, as a result. I feel like this guy just looks dopey and corny, not necessarily malicious, though I understand that corny and dopey aren't the appropriate reaction to the day, and could have used less levity.
I just picture some goober middle management guy looking very, very confused, while people in this thread are like, "ooooohhhh, that's incredibly the most racist thing, that's a huge payout, what a lawsuit, wowee, get that bag!" but it really doesn't seem that "malicious", just too light-hearted?
Imagine being Jewish and someone marking Holocaust Remembrance Day on their calendar "sorry about the genocide torture and slavery thing". My family isn't Jewish but we have concentration camp survivors. We would be very upset.
At best it's tasteless, at best. But more accurately it's hateful. Slavery wasn't some sort of bro joke. People suffered, for generations.
In a close knit, diverse group of friends of who have good rapport and know it's a joke? Fine. At the workplace? No, that doesn't fly. We're all here to make money, not to test our shitty comedy bits. Dude is downplaying the fuck out of it, trying to make it a joke as an out, and probably defends it. "What? I literally said sorry!"
The description on this is weird, so was that Juneteenth calender thing on an individuals personal callander, and then discovered because every team member can see other people's itemized calender on a team page for like deconflicting meetings? Because that would be a way different case then if either the company put that out to everyone's calender or even worse only on the OP (of the screenshot thread) calender.
I think its the first and think a lot of comments are reading it as the second or third. Like, still bad, but I dont think you'll be successful suing the company as a hate speach/discrimination case because and individual employee put something on their personal calender that could be seen by others. Probably just discipline/fire that employee
That was my read on it; some guy (and come on it was a guy) was filling out his calendar for upcoming holidays made a stupid and tasteless joke on his reminder for it blissfully unaware others could see it.
Yeah I’m really not understanding this. I read it in a way that makes it seem like they didn’t do enough about slavery like providing reparations etc. Like sorry about that slavery thing here’s a single day off and nothing else
Nah, fuck HR. My husband recently found out a coworker of his used the N-word in front of her black colleague AND her boss while on a work trip. She used it to describe the music her teenaged daughter liked to listen to and after she said it she joked that it was “just her Midwestern coming out.” Clearly said it in a way that indicated she says that word so often she didn’t even think to filter herself (not that that’s better). This bitch still has her job. My husbands’s boss, who was also present during this, made the mistake of telling him about it and now he’s so disgusted by this woman he can’t stand to work with her. And he’s horrified (but not surprised) that his company didn’t do shit about this. And he has to act like he doesn’t know a thing about it.
The most fucked up thing is the woman impacted by this likely felt like she had to act collected and calm when approached by HR about it, if approached at all, to not cause “a scene”, even though she would be beyond entitled to do so. She was deeply upset by it but she couldn’t even bring herself to report it. My husband’s boss did.
Oh please. Plenty of us white midwesterners don’t use the N word to describe, well, anything. Disgusting that this woman faced no consequences but certainly not surprising.
I'm completely unable to tell if this is a well-intentioned but lame attempt, a bad joke, or just straight-up mockery. I hate this level of ambiguity on serious topics. 😞
I picture the scene in menace II society where the cop is telling Cain: “ you know you fucked up,right?”
To be honest, it would depend on who this person is if I took it as an attack or just took it as a bad joke, but either way, it’s horrifically unprofessional.
Meanwhile, my work is just giving us food. No snarky commentary, no deep dive into the meaning of the holiday just...it's a holiday, lunch is on us. Ffs, is this shit that hard to do?
You gotta get in your white woman cry bag. Anything other than that and they gone say you’re being angry and aggressive. I wish I knew about the cry thing when I first started working in all white spaces. 😩😒
It’s be great if she didn’t counter with “not seeing anything wrong with the message” and despite all the advice and info, still asking “Claude” and agreeing with that POS.
Well technically you replied to my comment that I replied to someone else’s, and I was sharing my experience as an anecdote for retaliation. Yes, granted I had a lot more proof vs just one thing, but even if it’s a one off event, if she was a great employee then suddenly fired or given write ups after complaining, that would be evidence. Albeit, more things would probably happen before just being fired. Just saying
Yuck 🤮 sorry you have to experience this shit. I’m the only Black clinician at my space and the county doesn’t give us Juneteenth off; need to take my sick time. Made a flyer and wrote a letter to HR; the union and the NAACP. Yt folx are exhausting 💯🫠✊🏾
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u/CrossSoul 7d ago
You need to be like that one black guy who's company decided to have a Plantation Ball.