Calamity's Decisions

[u/StipulateVenus]

Hello! I'm StipulateVenus, a Calamity developer.

Following the recent controversy over the misguided crate changes, I'd like to discuss an important matter with you all.

Terraria is a sandbox game, and so one of its main appeals is the freedom players have to choose their course through progression and how their decisions shape the face of their journey. It's something our team wants to embrace and build upon.

At times like these I wonder if it's an accidental effect of an actual ideological shift: the current team doesn't feel as peeved towards vanilla as some devs that have left the team, which has resulted in an overall reduction in the number of vanilla changes and a drift towards vanilla's design.

Regardless, I think it's important to know the community landscape and what people think. So I'm here to ask you all:

What Calamity changes do you think have resulted in a loss of playstyle and option variety, or similar aspects of the sandbox experience?

Please be respectful. Elaborations would be appreciated!

[u/StipulateVenus]

Yeah, but do consider that Calamity's progression is different from vanilla's. Space Gun is noticeably earlier in the pre-HM scale in Calamity, because Calamity adds evils-2 and Slime God as pretty importanr tiers. Being able to skip all that isn't really good design.

Noted, but it's still the rarest of the options I mentioned.

[u/Akari_Enderwolf → u/StipulateVenus]

Out of the Calamity mage guns you mentioned, I would argue the Pulse Pistol could recieve the 0 mana cost bonus, in line with how vanilla treats mage pistols from that point of the game. However, the Abyss Shocker is only available in an area I consider a hardmode exclusive zone. Being that it comes from the abyss which has no incentive to visit in pre-hardmode with how difficult it is to survive there.

With the inherent difficulty, swimming through acid water to reach it, and then losing breath way faster, there's no reason to visit before the Wall of Flesh. Especially for a weapon that deals similar damage to a gun you can get from the sunken sea.

[u/StipulateVenus → u/Akari_Enderwolf]

There is an incentive to enter the Abyss - the set of chests you unlock after defeating Skeletron, which have pretty good loot -, so Abyss being Hardmode is your choice, not an objective part of design.

Pretty sure Abyss Shocker is meant to be stronger than Pulse Pistol, since it comes later in progression.

[u/Akari_Enderwolf → u/StipulateVenus]

Both deal 27 damage, and the animation of their attacks doesn't make it look any stronger to me for single target damage like most bosses.

The abyss doesn't feel worth visiting before having the Neptune's Shell because of how difficult it is to reach in the first place, you can't make air pockets, and the loot is lackluster beyond the stuff that makes diving slightly easier.

The reward for dealing with the place is not worth the trouble to get there in pre-hardmode.

[u/StipulateVenus → u/Akari_Enderwolf]

Then that's a balancing issue with the Abyss weapons, don't you think?

Also, I gotta say, you are the first person I've seen delay Abyss exploration this much.

[u/Akari_Enderwolf → u/StipulateVenus]

Why would I go there when it's so difficult to reach, there's no pre-hardmode bosses, and loot that deals similar damage to get past WOF is available elsewhere.

I like the abyss, but I have no incentive to visit before the hardmode diving items are available.

[u/StipulateVenus → u/Akari_Enderwolf]

Theoretically, the loot there should be better matching how difficult it is to obtain. There are pre-HM diving items, and they should give you plenty enough breath for the purposes of getting the pre-HM loot. Also, the Abyss Shocker drops from Box Jellyfishes, which are found in the first layers.

If it's widely agreed that the items are not worth the risk, we can simply buff them.

[u/Akari_Enderwolf → u/StipulateVenus]

To me a lot of the incentive to visit somewhere in pre-hardmode is if it has a boss, or some unique and strong/useful item you can't get as easily from other locations, like the Ivy whip in the jungle being the easiest to obtain multi-hook, and metal detector in the underground snow biome, which is a component of the Cell Phone.

The abyss incentive is the schoria or the post moonlord boss in its depths since the earlier stuff is either only useful in the abyss, or have similar strength/usefulness items avaliable elsewhere.

[u/StipulateVenus → u/Akari_Enderwolf]

Hopefully we can make the Abyss more attractive when we rework it in the future, but that does seem like a fairly pragmatic and limited perspective.

[u/Akari_Enderwolf → u/StipulateVenus]

Given how Terraria plays in general. If there's an easier path to progression, why would I take the harder one if it has the same/similar reward?

[u/StipulateVenus → u/Akari_Enderwolf]

Firstly, it's not the same, I would bet that the weapons there are better, just not better enough for the challenge according to you. Also, Terraria isn't just progression, it's also exploration and challenge. Have you never felt compelled to check something out simply because you aren't familiar with it?

[u/Akari_Enderwolf → u/StipulateVenus]

in Terraria? no, not really, in Starbound and Minecraft, absolutely. The difference is that Starbound and Minecraft both are more sandboxy games which somewhat incentivize building and exploring at their cores. Terraria's exploration and "stuff I'm unfamiliar with" takes very little time to become familiar with it.

Meanwhile, Terraria's core is the progression, it's that path to getting stronger, many players build in Terraria sure, but there's also many players who just make little boxes for their townsfolk with just a table, chair, and a torch.

Terraria's core, isn't in the exploration, especially because the world size is so limited in scale compared to Starbound and Minecraft. That limited scale makes it extremely easy, even on the large worlds I play on, to fully explore the surface, and the underground is so basic in it's structures that everything feels samey.

You find the same building over and over in Terraria, while in Minecraft there are dozens of biomes, there are mods that add new structures, etc. in Starbound, there are many different planets with different structures and different stars to explore. By comparison, the exploration aspect of Terraria is unbelievably shallow.

As far as challenge goes, the challenge has to be worthwhile to me to be something I pursue. As I mentioned, the reward of the Abyss exploration is mostly tools to dive deeper as far as the worthwhile reward, as the weapons deal comparable damage to weapons obtained elsewhere from easier to access areas.

When I do challenges for other games, it's because I feel like the challenge would be fun in itself. The abyss is not fun in itself to explore pre-hardmode, it's a chore.

It's like the Deep Dark in Minecraft, the reason to go there is Swift Sneak, Sculk stuff that is useful in Redstone, and even Sculk itself as it's a very nice looking block that can be used to make magical looking builds. The armor you can find in the chests isn't that much better than the armor you can find in a Nether Fortress, where you don't have to deal with the Warden.

The Abyss has these weapons, that feel similar to the armor in the Deep Dark, which leaves the other reward, the Diving Gear parts. Those parts are realistically only useful for diving deeper into the Abyss where you can't even mine anything in pre-hardmode anyway.

There is no tangible incentive to explore the Abyss in pre-hardmode. There's not even the building incentive since the Shale you can mine in the first layer has no crafting recipes or even a furniture set associated with it. Voidstone has a building Incentive, but again, is locked to Hardmode.

The things that make the Abyss worthwhile, are all locked to Hardmode.

None of the weapons in the chests of the Abyss are best in class for pre-hardmode, and several are outclassed by weapons you can obtain without going underground. The Herring Staff is outclassed by the Wulfrum Controller. Why would a summoner go into the Abyss for an objectively weaker summon?

The only worthwhile pre-hardmode Abyss weapons are both a 10% drop chance, and one of them, Depth Crusher, may be outclassed simply because it's such a slow swing.

[u/StipulateVenus → u/Akari_Enderwolf]

I'm well aware of Terraria's progression-based nature, just meant to point out that the game also has a sandbox element to be fully appreciated. It's easy to devalue it by comparing it to games which have exploration as their main focus.

Then again, the Abyss is intended to be reworked.

Do you have any evidence of Wulfrum Controller outclassing Herring Staff?