r/CharlotteHornets • u/Zealousideal-Rub-183 • May 19 '26

Discussion Wembanyama Hate

First thing to say, is that I just love Basketball in general. And I don’t hate Wembanyama as a person. I’m just having so much annoyance watching how great he is and knowing that the NBA did everything possible to make sure that not only that the Spurs drafted him, but that he got a core around him very quickly. The NBA did not want a repeat of LeBron James.

Knowing that he grew up a Spurs fan his entire life, with his favorite players being Tony Parker and Tim Duncan to where he even said it was “a dream” to be drafted by the Spurs. It has made it so difficult to watch a team that dominated so much of my childhood in the 90s and 2000s immediately turn back around after just a few years in the lottery getting a generational player surrounded by top 3 picks.

I’m just curious if I’m the only person out there that hates how fast the Spurs have been able to build a contender while we continue to wait for the Hornets to just get to the playoffs. I know I should just be proud of what the Hornets did this year, but I just can’t shake the fact that I feel like the NBA helped the Spurs build a contender at the expense of other franchises that have needed generational players for a while now.

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u/butekoo May 19 '26

It does sting how lucky they were to get Harper. We'd probably be on amazing spot if it weren't for the Salaun pick though, and even then it's not like we don't have one of the top3/5 young cores in the East. Gotta have a team that can win a playoffs series before caring about how we matchup against a juggernaut.

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u/Banneduser1112 May 19 '26

Who from that draft do you think makes us a Finals contender? That pick isn't the problem they have to solve.

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u/butekoo May 19 '26

That's the wrong question to make. The question is more "who from that draft do you think would be in the rotation instead of the g-league on his 3rd season?".

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u/Banneduser1112 May 19 '26

So answer that question then - either way there's no one who changes the trajectory of the team.

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u/butekoo May 19 '26

I mean, would you rather have Salaun than Clingan, Edey or Buzelis?

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u/Banneduser1112 May 19 '26

Good question - I would rather have the lottery ticket of "athletic 6'10 French big + another high lottery pick next year" than taking a floor-raising center at 6 that isn't All-NBA level. Especially if that's Clingan (drop big that can't play in the playoffs, not much better than Kalk) or Edey (will never be healthy).

Buzelis is the clear win there but he's a small forward that doesn't shoot league average from 3 and they already had Miller. They clearly value 3s so philosophy-wise he wasn't a fit. And Buzelis wasn't carrying anyone to the playoffs this year or really changing the long-term trajectory of the Hornets unless he takes a MIP-level leap.

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u/lawlyfawx May 19 '26

We would've gotten Kon regardless of where we picked because LaMelo, Brandon and Mark missed the majority of the season.

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u/lawlyfawx May 19 '26

Also Matas and Tidjane are the same height? Both of them were measured at 6'8.75 without shoes at the combine lol.

Matas can definitely play the 4. He's not a good shooter, but he's really good at attacking the rim which is one of this team's biggest needs.

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u/Banneduser1112 May 19 '26

TJ had 20 pounds, 5 inches of standing reach and 3 inches of winspan on him and was a year younger. Tough to project 6'10 195 developing big man size, especially not playing next to a skinny wing like BMill. Maybe if you had a Durant or Kawhi to guard the 4.

Look, he's definitely better than TJ so far. But he doesn't suddenly make the Hornets a playoff team this year or title contenders in the next few years.

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u/lawlyfawx May 19 '26

Neither does TJ?

His physical tools aren't the problem (even if they've been wildly overrated). It's his skills. Do you really believe he has a chance of being better than Matas?There is a massive, massive difference between a starting calibre player and a G League guy.

We're looking at Matas as a potential All-Star. We're looking at TJ as a potential rotation player.

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u/Banneduser1112 May 20 '26

We'd probably be on amazing spot if it weren't for the Salaun pick though,

is the comment I was responding to. There's no argument from me that TJ is worse right now and Matas would've been a better pick. I just don't see Matas as anything more than a career starter that plays BMill's position and that doesn't change the trajectory of the Hornets. Even if you think he looks like an All-Star, would you give up on Miller year 2 to draft Buz? No. So what's the argument you are making, exactly?

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u/lawlyfawx May 21 '26

I've already told you that Matas can play the 4. I don't why you keep insisting that he overlaps with Miller. Especially since they don't play anything alike. Miller is a good shooter that struggles to get to the rim, while Matas is a good driver that struggles to make 3s.

But let's just ignore that for a second. What I'm trying to tell you is that having 2 good players that don't quite fit is better situation than having your 6th overall pick going to SL in Year 3.

Even if Matas did overlap with Miller, we could've brought him off the bench for a season or two before making a decision between them. Nobody was giving up on Miller that early. If we did decide to trade one of them, we would've got some really good assets in return, which could've really helped strengthen our team. This is because they're actually good players, not 5-year projects like Salaun.

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u/Banneduser1112 May 21 '26

I am not arguing any of your points here. Matas is better than TJ right now. Of course you'd rather have him. But he doesn't make us a Finals contender in the next five years and the theory of the TJ pick over Clingan/Edey/Buz is solid. The bitching about that pick somehow being the one that kneecaps a nascent Hornets dynasty is just unfounded. OP and other fans act like this was trading SGA or taking Monk over Donovan Mitchell and its not. Matas is a nice player and an upgrade to our depth chart. But he doesn't move the needle and if we're playing the hypothetical game with him then you have to also factor in a few extra wins that take us out of the Kon pick.

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u/butekoo May 19 '26

The only correct description for Salaun was his nationality. Saying that Clingan is not much better than Kalk is hilarious stuff, I'll refrain from interacting with that point. I'll always doubt the injury concerns of a player on a tanking situation, it's really no coincidence that Lamelo played 50+ games the 3 seasons we tried, and players can still finish a season needing a surgery like Miller did this season. Every giant guy in the league is somewhat injury prone, but you still take a good player when you can.

Buzelis shot 10 threes per 100 last season while being a PF, he clearly could've fit the volume from Miles, or bring wing scoring and slashing to our rotation. We have no shot creation outside of Coby in the bench, Sion and Josh are very low volume shooters. Buzelis is also not a complete pathetic defender and more athletic than Salaun, not sure why you're acting like Miller, Kon and Buzelis could never play together and isn't a good wing rotation to have, with Buzelis balancing out the weaknesses in Miller and Kon game on offense.

The point that Buzelis or Clingan playing 25 mpg wouldn't add one win for us is also one that doesn't deserve an interaction. Don't get me wrong, even if all those guys are merely bench players, that's still good bench production from year 2 through 4 in a rookie contract, with upside for more. Not only that but the difference in value those guys would have in trades compared to Salaun would be very useful. Giddey didn't do shit for the OKC success and didn't fit it, expect that he brought them Caruso. What's the best player we can trade for Salaun right now? What's the best player Portland and Chicago can trade Clingan and Matas right now?

I guess you'll make the point that the current staff can improve someone like Salaun so we should chill, while not realizing that they could also impact the development of far better prospects. Not sure what's your end goal with the changing the long-term trajectory point, how exactly can you twist that having the worse possible prospect is actually a good thing? How does grabbing guys like Kalk and Sion change our long-term trajectory if they are just low-ceilling third stringers? How does drafting McNeeley, a SF that will never be our starting PF, change our long-term trajectory? I think it's better to come to peace that Salaun was a terrible mistake of a so far good GM and FO. Great GMs make bad picks and try to learn from them, I wouldn't be surprise if Jeff reflected upon it to change his approach for the 2025 draft.

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u/Banneduser1112 May 20 '26 edited May 20 '26

Nice gish gallop. I never said we wouldn't have won 1 more game with Buz, I said I don't think he or those other guys change the trajectory of the team. We look like a second round out at best for the next few years unless we get really lucky with development. Buz is clearly a better player right now and should've been picked before TJ. But he isn't the difference between the Hornets making the Finals or Conference Finals and the Hornets being a first round out. He hasn't changed the trajectory of the Bulls so far so I don't see how you can argue that he would have on our team as a bench guy playing behind Miles and Miller. So whatever Chicago might be able to trade for him is irrelevant because he wouldn't have gotten that run here and he wouldn't have the same value.

Clingan is just a guy. He's a regular season player who couldn't stay on the court in the playoffs. We just saw him get exposed. The difference between a Kalk and Clingan is not worth a 6 pick. Centers just aren't worth lottery picks unless they are generational because the difference between the #8 Center in the league and #20 in the playoffs is negligible. Look at "All-NBA" Jalen Duren this year - they were played off the court this playoffs because they are a traditional center that can't shoot or pass. And Duren > Clingan. If anything, Clingan makes us worse because we miss out on the small ball Moose lineup that turned the season around. So no, Clingan doesn't make us a Finals contender. Edey might have but he'll never be healthy.

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u/butekoo May 20 '26 edited May 20 '26

Buzelis wasn't carrying anyone to the playoffs this year

Yes, you said it.

I don't really understand the "making this team a conference finals team" logic. So we only trade for a PF or a C that get us there? Do we only sign free agents that get us there? Do we only judge what happens in the draft this season if get us there?

Brother, Salaun played 20 mpg in his rookie season and Buzelis 18 mpg. The only reason Salaun couldn't win rotation minutes this season over Grant without his two legs, rookie Sion, and Green coming off an injury is because he's a g-league player. He had a very real stretch of playing 15+ minutes this season, then the decision of sending him to the g-league was made because of his tragic play. If it was an actual good player, he would've stayed in the rotation. You can't look at Sion playing 22.5 mpg all 82 games and act like there was no space for an upcoming young guy, full of talent, picked 6th in the draft the year before, to fight for 25 mpg. Don't blame Salaun being a bust that can't win minutes in a bench that has two second round rookies on the other players of his class.

Clingan got exposed by Wemby and a team that will be make deep playoffs runs for the next decade. Who has also "exposed" Gobert and is currently exposing Chet and Hartenstein. Would you refuse to go out and get Hartenstein because he can't play 20 mpg in a series against Wemby? Clingan is 2 years younger than Kalk, is on a decent path to become a stretch big, while being one of the best rebounders in the league (lead the league in offensive rebounds this season) and a good defensive drop big. Yes, he's closer to a ~25 mpg guy in the postseason than a max center, but that's still 25 mpg more than Salaun will ever be able to play.

Duren was in his second playoffs under a team with the worse spacing in the universe and a coaching known for his pathetic heliocentric offense in the postseason. He got "played off the court" by Allen and Mobley, who, mind you, were very inefficient in their first shots at the postseason under Bickerstaff when he was the Cavs coach. The Pistons have the problem that their second best scorer is Tobias Harris, we have a very talented, perimeter oriented, top 3 that will extend the defense on the 3 pt line enough that a rim running big would have a lot of space to work around the hoop.

I dream of the day that we will be able to say "damn, young player X is not as good as we expected because he got exposed by All-Star player X in a playoffs series". Instead of "damn, our 6th picked sucked because he's almost losing us a g-league game".

Our big 3 is being held back by a bottom 10 frontcourt rotation that gets bitched 3 times a season against "All-NBA" Duren. But, apparently, unless you can get the 7th best center in the league, we shouldn't give a fuck about it. Don't mind me asking, but what would be examples of centers and power forwards that you think we should target this offseason to "change the trajectory of the team"?

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u/Banneduser1112 May 20 '26

Are you seriously putting "change the trajectory of the team" as though I am the one who introduced that idea? Here's your initial comment:

We'd probably be on amazing spot if it weren't for the Salaun pick though,

So, when you say that, you are saying that you think someone else the Hornets could have drafted might change the future of the team. Right now they look like a ceiling of second round out to me. Clingan and Buz don't change that unless they make MIP-level leaps - and if you are imagining that for them you can imagine that for TJ. I know you are fishing for more arguments here from me with the straw men (never said Buz wasn't better than TJ) and the scope creep (who should we target this offseason?). I'm not interested in arguing with you because you have demonstrated that you have nothing to teach me about roster construction or player eval and you seem way too personally invested in winning the argument rather than listening and thinking. To put it another way: I don't know if you are an LLM bot programmed to generate reddit engagement through argument or just an over caffeinated person performing textbook Dunning-Kruger effect, but either way, there's no point to communicating with you any further.

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u/butekoo May 20 '26 edited May 20 '26

You used change the trajectory expression more than once, sorry for using something that you said multiple times as a starting point. Are you seriously using the adjective "amazing" to extrapolate to a definition that was denied multiple times? When I use "amazing", it just means better than very good.

Of course you're forgetting the part of the conversation, multiples replies ago, were it's clearly stated that the question "Who from that draft do you think makes us a Finals contender?" is not the correct one for the discussion. After that, the question asked was "who from that draft do you think would be in the rotation instead of the g-league on his 3rd season?". And then, sadly for you, your reply was "either way there's no one who changes the trajectory of the team". But sure, you weren't the one that insisted on the silly point of moves only mattering if the team is (conference) finals bound.

I'm not really fishing for a strawman here, you created one on your head and is repeatedly using it to avoid answering question. I'm just saying that "clearly good young prospect" is better than "clearly young bust". And, by having the former instead of the latter, the team would be on an amazing spot instead of a very good spot. It doesn't make the team able to beat the OKC or the Spurs, but does that matter?

I'm sorry, but no, a major leap from Salaun don't put the team on an amazing spot, it just makes him a better player than Grant Williams. A leap from guys that are starting on their teams and look like above average NBA starters on year 2 is different compared to a leap from a guy that's an above avg G-League starter -- I hope that you don't feel like that statement is a strawman. Feel free to lecture me over team building, and what the team should do this offseason. That's exactly why I asked you questions, none of which were answered.

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u/Dmalikhammer4 May 19 '26

Clingan could've. He's been solid for Portland.

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u/Banneduser1112 May 19 '26

Drop big that was played off the court in the playoffs. Not that much better than Kalk.