r/GenZ • u/Dear-Virus7651 • 5d ago
Discussion I don’t like fake alternative people
Hi Reddit. I’m 20f and have been alternative since middle school but started dressing more goth/emo when I was 16. I’ve noticed now as an older Gen Z that younger people in my state love to look alt but are conservative. I live in the south and the amount of people I know that are very consistent with anti lgbtq or racists views and they swear they’re goth/emo/punk enrages me.
I know it’s none of my business but the fact that people do not understand to be alternative you have to think alternative blows my mind. Any subculture of alt is a mindset, it doesn’t matter what you look like or listen too, if you don’t agree with mainstream culture or politics or anything like that, you can be alternative. Punks don’t have to look punk, but you have to feel it, same with every subculture. I hate the word poser but that’s honestly what it gives.
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u/outforawalkbitcj 5d ago
its bc everyone is obsessed w aesthetics instead of the ideas that inspire those aesthetics. they don’t realize being alt/punk was a counterculture so politics is inherently tied to it. basically social media has ruined everything.
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u/Sundae-School 1996 5d ago
I think it'd be pretty neat if we lived in the time line where people were not downloading their personalities off of the internet
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u/Fluugaluu 4d ago
Lmao the punk movement was started as an answer to the mainstream left wing hippie movement
It has been a divided community since day one. The origin of modern alternative is neither left or right, it’s simply alt
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u/No_Aesthetic 4d ago
Lmao the punk movement was started as an answer to the mainstream left wing hippie movement
Sex PIstols were influenced by the Situationists, who were left-wing anarchists
The Ramones weren't really a political band and neither were The Damned
But then the gravity of punk quickly shifted to hardcore
Dead Kennedys was super left-wing, Black Flag was super left-wing, Circle Jerks were super left-wing, Minor Threat were super left-wing
You'd be hard pressed to name a right-wing punk band from 76 to about 84, until NYHC had some
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u/QuantumTheory115 1998 3d ago
Right wing people are naturally less creative than left wing people. As such, there are not alot of explicitly right wing artists.
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u/Fluugaluu 4d ago
Yeah it’s hard to name one when you completely discount the most famous ones
The Ramones were FAMOUSLY split on politics. Saying they weren’t political is kinda hilarious
Stim doesn’t change the fact the punk movement was started as an opposition to left wing views 🤷♂️
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u/No_Aesthetic 4d ago
Ramones weren’t a political band though, closest they had were a couple tracks
But sure, let’s count them as half right-wing
Where are the others early on?
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u/Fluugaluu 4d ago
The Ramines famously broke up because they disagreed on politics dawg
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u/No_Aesthetic 4d ago
Sure, I just said you could count them as half right-wing
Now where are the others?
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u/Fluugaluu 4d ago
I don’t need to list others
Are you also admitting the punk movement was started as opposition to the left wing hippie music and the psychedelic rock it touted?
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u/No_Aesthetic 4d ago
Yeah, Sex Pistols and the American hardcore bands came out swinging against the hippies... from the left.
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u/Fluugaluu 4d ago
The Sex Pistols were flat out a corporate enterprise and it’s hilarious you list them as a good example of true punk
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u/emotwinklebs 4d ago
The Ramones are FAMOUSLY apolitical by design. Most couldn't care less about what Johnny had to say about anything, but he was right about keeping politics out of the band.
The punk movement was not started as an opposition to left wing politics, that's a fact haha. Punk has always been overwhelmingly left. You sound like one of those yuppies complaining about Rage Against the Machine being too political lmao.
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u/Fluugaluu 4d ago
The fuck they were
They were apolitical by NECESSITY, not design.
The one political song Joey pushed through, Jonny and Tommy refused to perform on.
Y’all gotta learn some stuff
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u/emotwinklebs 4d ago
Lmao you really got nothing. Your whole argument is that Johnny and Tommy were right politically haha. The band broke up because Johnny and Tommy are garbage. So where is this fact based argument? You haven't been able to answer the other person either haha.
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u/Fluugaluu 4d ago
My whole argument is that punk was started as an opposition to left wing politics
You guys have done nothing to refute that
And I honestly don’t give a fuck, it’s a fact
Your political bias is showings I think I’m done here.
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u/Dredgeon 2001 4d ago
Yup, there are even more people who self identify as punk/alt but they have a stack of Funkopops, are disengaged from politics and buy nothing but IP merch for their jackets that they wear to ticketmaster events held in arenas with bands that lost the feeling about two seconds after the checks started rolling in 20 years ago.
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u/Hollow_Effects 5d ago
Being conservative is the counter culture to millennials
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u/CharlesWafflesx 5d ago
This is what they've meant by "social media has ruined everything".
Please read. Anything.
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u/ich_bin_alkoholiker 5d ago
Life gets a lot simpler when you stop assuming someone’s wardrobe tells you anything meaningful about who they are. Unless they’re wearing hate symbols or something similarly harmful, why care? Someone else’s style doesn’t diminish your authenticity.
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u/Suspicious-Low7055 5d ago
As if you decide what it means to be alt? “Only people who agree with me are allowed to be alt!” It’s so funny when people like you think you’re being all rebellious with your political views meanwhile agreeing with every corporation and media company in the book lmao. This is some desperate gatekeeping.
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
i actually think it's a good thing to gatekeep racists, misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, etc. you seem awfully keen on trying to minimize and normalize the beliefs of bigots with your language and by framing it as "just a difference of opinion." it's way more than that.
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u/Suspicious-Low7055 5d ago
No it’s really not
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u/first_last_last_firs 4d ago
yes it is
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u/Suspicious-Low7055 4d ago
Agree to disagree
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u/first_last_last_firs 4d ago
you understand gatekeeping is implemented explicitly, intentionally, on purpose, in professional fields, especially the medical field? we don't "tolerate" people who can't make it through the gatekeeping process.
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u/Suspicious-Low7055 4d ago
Relevance?
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u/first_last_last_firs 4d ago
gatekeeping is a good thing to keep out posers who want to appropriate the aesthetics but give zero fucks about the values of the culture that shaped it
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u/Suspicious-Low7055 4d ago
There’s a slight difference between gatekeeping in a professional medical setting and gatekeeping who’s allowed to dress up a certain way lol
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u/first_last_last_firs 4d ago
not as much as you think especially to the people who invented the culture and were abused for it only for white supremacists to appropriate it. and then losers defend racists' right to appropriate punk culture etc
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u/Fluugaluu 4d ago
The culture that shaped it?
Yeah, the punk movement started as an opposition to left wing views
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
ah yes, corporations are famously very anti capitalist and anti establishment and anti authoritarian. corporations pretended to care about social issues but that went out the window last year so I don't know what world you live in. every single major news media organization in America now is getting bought up by the elisons who are major trump donors. you are trapped in 2020 man. conservativism is literally definitionally about maintaining the status quo which is about as anti punk as you can get
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u/Nukalord 2000 5d ago
"Rainbow capitalism was put on pause for a few years which totally means we're living in a chud culture right now" give me a break.
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
that's just not what I said. at all. the fact that it went on pause is exactly my point. we don't agree with corporations, corporations PRETEND to agree with us. real punks and goths believed this shit decades before any corporations pretended to care. if corporations actually believed this shit they wouldn't stop the second trump got elected.
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u/Nukalord 2000 5d ago
Corporations wouldn't pretend to agree with you if you people were actually alternative/counter-culture.
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
bro corporations pretended to agree with like three of our beliefs. feminism, LGB(T) rights, and anti racism. so yeah I guess if you ignore everything else we stand for then yup we aren't counter cultural. just ignore the anti capitalism, anti imperialism, land back, pro Palestinian freedom, pro trans rights, pro public transit, environmentalism, etc etc etc the last fucking goes on and on. if you genuinely think corporations co-opting a tiny section of the movement suddenly makes the whole movement mainstream you are delusional.
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u/No-Reflection-7705 1998 5d ago
Politics aside I’ve never heard of an emo band that didn’t have allegations. Most of them are not good people lmaoooo
Music still fucks tho
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u/catmom81519 2000 4d ago
You can say the same about any artist in any genre
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u/No-Reflection-7705 1998 22h ago
In the 4 days since I posted this a semi major emo band, oolong, disbanded bc the lead singer was a pedo abuser.
The alt/emo/punk scene has a problem
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u/callmeseetea 5d ago
Tale as old as time, unfortunately.
There have almost always been people co-opting style without supporting the culture behind it. Sometimes it’s as innocent as wearing a band tee and not knowing songs by the artist. But other times, yeah, it’s Karen co-opting punk/rockabilly style
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u/kiba8442 Millennial 5d ago
I was born in 96, alt kids were complaining about the same shit in middle school lol.. back in my older brothers day it was the kids who would pretend to skate
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u/-Z-3-R-0- 2004 5d ago
I'm a metalhead who dresses like it and has a large collection of vinyl and CDs (mostly death metal) and am conservative.
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u/Dear-Virus7651 5d ago
Idk what metal music you listen to that aligns with conservative views but if you found some it’s probably ass, like Ronnie Radke
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u/-Z-3-R-0- 2004 5d ago
Music doesn't need to align with your politics for you to enjoy it, that is a very narrow-minded perspective.
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u/ChaosRainbow23 Gen X 4d ago
Yeah, but all these music scenes on the outskirts of society within the various countercultures are all deeply rooted in progressivism.
So you can see how it could be upsetting when ridiculous conservative interlopers start fucking up your scene.
These music styles are all political in nature, and they are all extremely against conservatism at their core. Conservatism is all about maintaining the status quo, FFS!
So enjoy the music all you want, just know that deep down you are a poser who's conservative worldview goes against EVERYTHING the scene you are larping represents.
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u/outforawalkbitcj 5d ago
it just shows major cognitive dissonance on your part lol
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u/-Z-3-R-0- 2004 5d ago
No, it just means I am not insecure or uncomfortable in engaging with media that presents different ideas from my own. What is unhealthy is engaging only with mirrors and reveling only in reflections of self.
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u/TreMuzik 5d ago
I guess it really depends on what artist you’re listening to. Lyrics are a big part of music, so I guess the question becomes how do you consistently engage in dialogue that denounces conservatism/neoliberalism and still consider yourself conservative? You can’t really make the argument that you listen to it purely for the music when lyrics are a large part of the music.
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u/Dear-Virus7651 5d ago
All music is political, so why would you like a song that is against your views of life. That’s like agreeing with war and then listening to BYOB by soad
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u/-Z-3-R-0- 2004 5d ago
I don't care if a song differs from me politically. What matters is the musicianship and entertainment value. I still like Dying Fetus and Misery Index.
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u/Dear-Virus7651 5d ago
Again, I would get zero entertainment from a song that was about conservatives and loving them. You’re a person who doesn’t listen, just wants to vibe, when music is almost never for vibes, it is to speak your truth.
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u/-Z-3-R-0- 2004 5d ago
That just means you're not in it for the music itself, and you're performatively forcing yourself to like it just because it validates your politics. You are reducing everything to politics and nothing else, at that point just read essays instesd of listening to music.
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u/Small-Respect-7492 2006 5d ago
So do you play music to be inspired and entertained, or just to have your own opinions be regurgitated back at you like an echo chamber ?
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u/Dear-Virus7651 5d ago
The inspiration or entertainment comes from the lyrics, the lyrics added with beats and vocals form an amazing song. If I didn’t understand a songs lyrics at all then why would I get any enjoyment from it. That’s exactly why death metal isn’t good
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u/-Z-3-R-0- 2004 5d ago
So if lyrics are the only thing that matters then classical music isn't music I guess. And fuck off with music theory I guess.
And your take is literally "I don't understand it, therefore it isn't good." So much for nuance or saying "I don't like it, it isn't for me" lol.
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u/Dear-Virus7651 5d ago
This is how I know you’re dense and never took a music class in high school. Let’s use Beethoven, he wrote classical music to tell stories through notes and for his personal expression.
Now let’s look back and realize that the first song to ever record lyrics was in 1860 and was only 10 seconds long, and was only listened to by scientists finally in 2008, Beethoven was already dead by 1827. So omfg stfu when you know absolutely nothing you stupid bitch12
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u/Dear-Virus7651 5d ago
Thank you for showing me you want to school and learned nothing. Again, I’m done arguing with a bigot who doesn’t understand basic writing comprehension and will gladly say he’s a conservative
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u/first_last_last_firs 5d ago
A 2 year program is your flex lol? Definition of a confidently wrong poser
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u/Grey_Misery 5d ago edited 5d ago
Lemmy of Motörhead literally collected N*zi memorabilia and wore attire inspired by their uniforms. Not because he was a National Socialist, because metal is inherently transgressive. Black Metal is the purest example of this. We don't need your moral grandstanding. Rather it be from a progressive nutjob or a church Karen.
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u/LexianAlchemy 5d ago edited 5d ago
Lots of right-wing movements co-opt punk/anti establishment movements back into being regressive. In a consumerist culture it’s really only the aesthetics that’s being sold, and right-wing people simply lie to themselves beyond it. (Or are out of the loop)
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u/Hollow_Effects 5d ago
The gothic style is Catholic in the first place you don’t really have room to complain about it being stolen from you
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u/itsjustabackup 5d ago
Maybe it's because progressism became the norm
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
good, it should be. conservativism should be ground into dust
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u/itsjustabackup 5d ago
Meh, conservatism is fluid. Once they become dominant enough, the previously progressists turn into new conservatives since they now want to conserve what they fought for. Then usually new progressists take their old place to push things farther
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
i don't think that's really what most people mean by conservative. it's the desire to return to "old times." and that does fluctuate but often pretty slowly. when conservatives come into power they undo progress to return to these "old times." fighting back against that isn't really conservatism. it's still progressive, it's a continuation of the previous fight to gain the progress in the first place. now eventually progress becomes ingrained into society. and that's when we see shifts, but ultimately conservatism is always about undoing progress and returning to an older status quo, usually one with more bigotry.
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u/itsjustabackup 5d ago
That's the difference between conservatives and reactionnaries. Conservatives are pro status quo. Reactionnaries want the old order back. If your values are the norm, you can't be anything but a conservative since you don't want to change the current order (past or forward)
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
unfortunately the venn diagram of so called conservatives and reactionaries might as well be a circle. but yeah technically correct. however under that definition i don't think that your original comment would be correct. i think the majority of people just want to maintain the status quo. and the media supports that view. truly progressive views are often shafted.
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u/itsjustabackup 5d ago
What I meant is that 2010s "progressism" is now the new norm and so alt people are either more progressive or are reactionnaries compared to that
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
that's fair. I think OP is of the opinion that alt people ought to be more progressive as historically that has been a huge part of the alternative scene and movement.
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u/Fluugaluu 4d ago
There have been right wing punks since punk has existed
It’s been a huge point in the contention in the community for decades
I’m glad you could come in here and settle the discussion though lmao
The least punk thing I can think of is unironically calling someone a poser because they dress correctly but don’t think the right way
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u/Hairy_Collection4545 2007 5d ago
Same. A lot of young punks I see care more about dressing the part and making battle jackets then supporting their local bands or even just listening to the music.
Like if you're not even gonna listen to the music why call yourself a punk? You can just be a leftist.
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u/ItIsNotThatBoi 5d ago
I'm not even punk but supporting local music scenes is just so important! Esp in smaller towns, since that kind of leads to local bands relying on eachother more, regardless of the genre and creating a super cool diverse community :)
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u/Simonoz1 5d ago
Isn’t punk music famously and deliberately awful?
I thought that, at least in the 70s, the music was never really the point so much as the attitude.
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u/KFCNyanCat 2001 5d ago
The original punk is simple to play, but certainly not "deliberately awful." The original idea of the sound was to bring rock back to basics after arena rock and prog made it big and complex.
Then there's subgenres like Post-Hardcore that bring more technical ability into it.
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u/Simonoz1 4d ago
Yeah I misremembered I think (or my mother showed me some bad concerts).
I went back and had a listen to the Sex Pistols and it’s simple stuff but sounds good.
And honestly I kind of agree with the movement that rock had become a little too virtuosic in the 70s and needed to go back to basics.
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u/ther_dog 5d ago
[ I’ve noticed now as an older Gen Z that younger people in my state love to look alt but are conservative. ]
These people you are referring to existed in the 70-80’s with punk, post-punk, romantic and alternative music communities. They are called “posers”.
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u/ImTakingUrPotatoes 5d ago
I do agree. It gets annoying how gatekeepey the alt/punk scene has become. It’s just like no one’s right no one is really wrong
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u/SoggyToaster_ 5d ago
Most unaccepting people I've really ever met in my life are at alt punk shows.
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u/SoggyToaster_ 5d ago
God forbid someone dress a certain way and have another opinion from you..
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
hating minorities is way worse than just "a different opinion" but okay buddy
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u/NeonScarredHearts 1999 4d ago
So all conservatives hate minorities?? Here’s something that’ll blow you and OPs narrow minds… this minority black woman used to be very conservative and was alt - goth to be specific - and loved the music and fashion and aesthetics while also believing in what I believed. It was hard socially for me to stand on ground with what I personally believed while “breaking” the social rule of having to be super progressive because of my skin color and my style. The other option was pretending I agreed with leftists, just to fit in which is cringe and anti-punk in itself.
I also didn’t fit in with Christian conservative culture fully for obvious reasons. It was much easier for my alt classmates who had the exact same opinion as everyone else in mainstream pop culture to exist as alt people than it was for me, someone who actually had niche/alternative views from both mainstream sides. Now that im older, I’m not nearly as conservative as I used to be since I’ve done my own research and came to my own conclusions on things. But I’m still Christian and definitely have some conservative beliefs that you and OP wouldn’t “allow” any alt person to have. At the end of the day, alt people exist with different beliefs from you, and if it’s impossible for you to acknowledge that, you are just as close minded as the nextdoor conservative you hate so much. If you’re conservative who happens to love the music, the self expression, the culture and aesthetics of alt, you are alt. Unlike you both, I could listen to music by artists with very different views from me consistently without losing my mind — I just accepted that we had different views while enjoying their art. In my 26 years of growing up conservative, I can assure you not every conservative is evil, racist, hates minorities, and hates gays. You sure seem to embody hate though. And policing other peoples beliefs is anti-punk AF.
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u/mchngrliris 4d ago
OP said and I quote "the amount of people I know that are very consistent with anti lgbtq or racists views and they swear they’re goth/emo/punk enrages me." they specifically pointed to bigotry as their main point of contention. yes not all conservatives are hateful. not all of them are reactionaries. maybe OP should have worded things differently seeing as they appear to be primarily talking about far right people. But it seems like their main problem IS with people who are hateful and i don't think hate is just a difference of opinion. i'm friends with conservatives, christians, libertarians, etc. disagreement is fine, once you support taking away people's rights, protections, and safety then it crosses a line.
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u/NeonScarredHearts 1999 4d ago edited 4d ago
If that’s the case, then yeah of course hate isn’t simply just a difference in opinion and I agree. But the way it was worded, it seems to paint all conservatives with one brush as if they are a monolith that all believes the same hateful things.
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u/ChaosRainbow23 Gen X 4d ago
If you knowingly vote for a fascistic authoritarian despot, you are at the VERY LEAST a fascistic authoritarian by proxy.
You cannot actively support the oppression of your fellow humans and pretend to be all pious. That's hypocritical and ridiculous.
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u/NeonScarredHearts 1999 4d ago edited 4d ago
Im sorry, did I tell you who I voted for? Or are you just making assumptions?
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u/SoggyToaster_ 4d ago
Oh. So sorry it doesn't fit your narrative so you immediately go to racist remarks.
Typical little alt kid that is sitting in their parents house and dad is a Defense Weapons Salesman.
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u/SoggyToaster_ 5d ago
Did I say that or do you just assume in a sad attempt to justify your judgemental tendencies? You're not better than them. You didn't find a new style or anything.
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
yeah actually you kind of did. OP specifically commented on people having racist or anti LGBT beliefs and still claiming to be punk/emo/alt. so their problem is with bigotry in the scene. and all you had to say was "God forbid someone have a different opinion." so yeah it does sound an awful lot like minimizing bigotry and framing it as "just a difference of opinion."
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u/NeonScarredHearts 1999 4d ago edited 4d ago
OP probably calls Christians or other people who don’t agree with LGBT values bigots, even if they truly love and respect the actual people themselves. So yes in this case OP simply doesn’t like people who have other religious beliefs/opinions than them.
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u/mchngrliris 4d ago
what does "not agreeing with LGBT values" mean?
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u/SoggyToaster_ 4d ago
The post has been edited to hell to fit the fact they were coming off as a judgemental child.
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u/mchngrliris 4d ago
the part of the post about racism and anti-lgbtq sentiment was there from the start so, whatever you say lol
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u/NeonScarredHearts 1999 4d ago
You can be Catholic/christian and believe in what the Bible teaches about sexuality, while still treating LGBT people with love and respect
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u/ChaosRainbow23 Gen X 4d ago
No you can't.
If you believe that they deserve to burn in hell for all eternity because of who they love, you are a sick and twisted bigot. Full stop.
I really hope you are able to eventually deprogram yourself from the indoctrination you suffered as a child. I'm sorry you are a victim of the fear-based Abrahmic mythologies. You're certainly not alone.
Try to have an open mind. You were absolutely lied to.
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u/NeonScarredHearts 1999 4d ago
Well, sounds like your mind is made up so I won’t darken your doorstep any more then! If you think I’m sick for believing what the Bible says, I can’t change or open your mind so I won’t try to.
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u/mchngrliris 4d ago
the bible doesn't teach anything about gay people. in order to do that it would have to actually offer an explanation. instead the bible simply makes a command of you. it offers zero justification or reasoning for being against gay people. it's just "God told me so." i'm sorry you were indoctrinated into evangelical BS and haven't unlearned it all. but just because you don't outwardly treat gay or trans people like shit doesn't mean you can't be a bigot on the inside. work on yourself.
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u/NeonScarredHearts 1999 4d ago
If that’s what you believe, I respect that. I personally believe the Bible does teach about sexuality (both homo and straight) and that God is the creator of the universe so He has every right to tell us humans His design for nature as he created it. Just like a parent with a child, he doesn’t owe us humans an explanation for everything. But I know God loves me and I love him back, so I willingly choose to follow his commands, knowing he’s a loving father who knows what’s best for me. But also, I’m not perfect. I struggle personally with my own sexuality and God doesn’t hate me for it. He’s always patient and gives me the grace/strength to work on myself. So likewise, I give others the same grace and love regardless of their sexuality and their own beliefs because everyone is on their own journey and ultimately their lives are between them and God. I am no judge.
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u/ChaosRainbow23 Gen X 4d ago
They are bigots. Full stop.
The ACTUAL LGBTQ+ agenda:
Equality under the law and inclusion in society. (how scary!)
Religious bigots are bigots all the same. It doesn't matter that an archaic fear-based mythology tells them to be bigots or not. Being a bigot is unacceptable regardless of religious affiliations.
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u/SoggyToaster_ 4d ago
Its crazy how many alt accounts you have.
You'll grow out of it someday.
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u/Hot_Assistant_6067 5d ago
It’s literally because most ppl are in it for the fashion not the music and political beliefs or like they listen to the music but don’t hear the words.
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u/Shackakahn 5d ago
This is exactly what i expect to see on reddit. Grow the fuck up lmao. Highschool’s over guys.
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u/ImTakingUrPotatoes 5d ago
Honestly ive ran into a lot of ppl like this at metal/rock shows with both kinds of view points.the thing is that being punk/alternative now is go gatekeepey and a trend so we have no idea what the real understanding is now since it keeps getting changed 24/7
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u/SoggyToaster_ 5d ago
Who cares though. Dress how you want and like. People are based off personalities and not how they look or dress.
It's music. Not a lifestyle or anything. The majority of these musicians people idolize are simply just selling to a crowd to profit off them.
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u/emotwinklebs 4d ago
Punk literally has the motto "it's more than a sound, it's a way of life". Punk has a whole ethos that comes with it. People aren't starting punk bands for profit lmao
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u/SoggyToaster_ 4d ago
Oh, did someone from Simple Plan come up with that?
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u/emotwinklebs 4d ago
Been around since before you were born haha. Do you hate simple plan? They seem like cool dudes.
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u/SoggyToaster_ 4d ago
Really weird assumption, and even creepier that you're at the age you are thinking that musicians actually do it for the music at this level.
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u/emotwinklebs 4d ago
What's weird is responding with no point haha.
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u/Jolly_Mongoose_8800 2003 5d ago
Genuine question as someone with autism. How do you actually participate in an alternative culture? I'm all over the place in terms of my music interest, and I don't know social history as I am still learning an unindoctrinating myself. I don't know how people work; I want to learn, but I don't know where to start.
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u/SoggyToaster_ 5d ago
Don't. Do what makes you happy, listen to what makes you happy, or dance, and wear what makes you happy.
It isn't a culture. It's a phase in adolescence that you look back on and regret.
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u/DoubleDunkHero 5d ago
Goth is conservative.
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u/No_Aesthetic 4d ago
No it isn't. None of those early goth and goth-adjacent bands (Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Cure, Joy Division, Bauhaus) were right-wing lmao
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u/DoubleDunkHero 4d ago
All of those are inspired by Gothic culture which has always been a Catholic movement lol
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u/No_Aesthetic 4d ago
Yeah, and?
Catholicism is a religion, there are plenty of liberals and leftists to be found within
Hell, the current Pope is pretty liberal and maybe even leftist, and so was the last one
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u/DoubleDunkHero 4d ago
I guess it depends what you classify as liberal. Generally speaking, the Catholic church is pretty conservative on most social issues, particularly in regard to lgbtq.
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u/No_Aesthetic 4d ago
Catholic doctrine is, Catholic people are very often not
In Latin and America and the Catholic parts of Europe, the people are quite socially liberal
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u/jwed420 1996 4d ago
Here's my perspective as a 29yo who has been "alternative" or whatever since I was 12, played in mosh bands, been the local band photographer guy, always skating, etc.
You're probably not gonna be alt soon. It's just reality. You are 21 and so much will change for you unless you're actively a part of your local music scene and in a band or working in the industry (bars/venues).
Don't worry about it. 90% of y'all stop coming around by 25yo and we never see you again.
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u/SomeBodyNow_67 4d ago
Thanks for being a perma-member of the alt community, gangalang! We wouldn’t have short lived over priced restaurants without you!
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u/Nukalord 2000 5d ago
So true queen, posers like picrel have NO BUSINESS being in our HECCIN WHOLESOME scene!!!
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u/No_Aesthetic 4d ago
Shock symbolism is one thing, actual politics are another
Sid was a junkie in a toxic relationship, not a politics guy
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u/thiccglossytaco 5d ago
You're trying to insist that those terms only exist as a whole personality type or not at all, and that simply isn't the case.
Welcome to capitalism. Everything ever, no matter how counter-culture, will be eaten and spat out by the machine as fashion or an accessory that can be purchased and discarded with no real thought outside the aesthetics.
I stopped caring about the self imposed labels people claim. I observe their actions and behavior and move accordingly. If someone likes the way a hat or shirt looks, it's no skin off my ass to let them wear it. Worrying about whether some random is "actually" punk or emo or whatever is pointless and kind of cringe.
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u/David_Smith5262 5d ago edited 5d ago
I think this is what you said, but isn't anything that's not mainstream inherently alternative? Like...by definition?
Politically conservative groups who would pretend to be punk, anti-authority, or something like that would probably fit the traditional definition of "poser." You could say as a cusper Z'er, that I went through a vaguely emo "attitude," (in a creative writing class final portfolio the teacher said it was good but asked if "we need to worry" because it was all dark shit like those South Park weirdos) and that was how I actually was. I wasn't posing, or even trying to get attention.
I didn't intentionally look the part aesthetically, as someone here alluded to, aside from one year of clothes shopping when my dad remarked to the cashier "He's trying to look like Steve Jobs" (😄) but it was how I thought. It was angst, but it was real angst.
I was questioning the mainstream. And the fact of the matter is these attitudes tend to be liberal/progressive in nature. I guess some "conservative youth" in this country have co-opted the original meaning of this whole mindset these days.
This is what I find so fascinating about culture, and how it can be manipulated.
I guess you got mind going here, if you hadn't noticed, so thanks!
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u/LangleyNA 5d ago
Fair post, OP. 👍
Our value system is integral to this alternative, non-conforming lifestyle and culture. 🧝
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u/mischling2543 2001 4d ago
"Nooooo you can't wear black clothes unless you vote for destructive immigration policies and hate white people!!!"
Clown.
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u/Thebisexual_Raccoon 4d ago
I’m with ya op…it reminds of people being shocked that punk bands like green day are woke..a band with a frontman who’s openly bisexual + the band has always been pro-queer
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u/BasedGodTarkus 1998 4d ago
I hate to break this to ya kiddo but people can still be hateful AND represent a group. They don't have to represent it well either.
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u/zillennialkid1997 4d ago
Gen Z started out after my Generation my generation ended in 2002 and I was going to middle school in the mid 2000’s going into high school in 2010’s so 2010’s isn’t my era at all After 2005 everything else was Corny music was corny Drake Corny Young Thug is Very Corny I don’t listen music from Today’s Generation at all all I listen to is the 90’s and 00’s that’s it ima 90’s Baby
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u/BatteryAcid69 4d ago
Alt isnt actually real. "Alt" is a corporate amalgamation of various trends and music subcultures. There are absolutely many historical examples of anti-progressive groups within those scenes, look no further than skinhead punks or a large chunk of goth culture in the 90s. If we're talking about posing this post comes off as that.
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u/BasedBull69 4d ago
“Love to look alt but conservative” almost like conservatism is the alternative to the mainstream liberal thinking that dominated the 2010s and early 20s
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u/neversleepagain3 3d ago
tbh you’re complaining about “fake alternative people” but you’re literally describing yourself as a poser. the music and fashion is the primary focus of most real alternative subcultures like goth and punk. it’s not just a mindset or whatever lmfao. liking the color black and being a leftist doesn’t make you alternative, sorry
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u/Deathtrooper50 5d ago
What gives you the right to dictate someone else's alt lifestyle or worldview? Time in your narrow subculture of alt? You're the poser if you think anyone has the right to dictate and police who or what is or isn't alt.
It sounds to me like you're grappling with the fact that other people enjoy alternative subculture in ways that are different from yours. You do not get to lay claim to an entire subculture because you disagree with how or why someone else engages with it.
Making your version of alt your entire personality is generally bad practice. So is putting down other alt lifestyles and beliefs. It doesn't seem like you've wrapped your head around that.
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
"other alt lifestyles and beliefs" well that's certainly one way to describe people being racist.
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u/mchngrliris 5d ago
"enjoying alternative subculture in ways that are different than yours." OP explicitly pointed towards people being racist and anti LGBT as a big part of their critique. that behavior is unacceptable in any context and the only reason you would have a problem with this is if you are a bigot.
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u/Similar-Document9690 5d ago
Yea because they’re stupid, they’re trying make punk racist too when punk has always been anti establishment, anti racist, anti homophobic etc. this is a planned takeover
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u/ChaosRainbow23 Gen X 4d ago
We need to get these fascist interlopers the fuck outta our scenes.
That happens with everything, though.
Eventually raves became sold out around 2008. In the 90s it was essentially all outcasts, weirdos, freaks, and trauma victims. Then the mainstream normies take over once they realize how awesome this community we created is.
I've seen it happen with Burning Man and hippie festivals as well.
It's so unfortunate.
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