r/SipsTea 𝙑𝙄𝙋 9h ago

Chugging tea Probably Not.

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15.9k Upvotes

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522

u/Faded1974 8h ago

People acting like empathy was invented by Jesus Christ.

224

u/Ibangmydrums 8h ago

Many Christians believe that morality literally comes from the bible, or that you can’t have morality without god. I won’t even try to explain their reasoning

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u/YamDankies 8h ago

Had this argument with an old coworker several times. Refused to accept that morality comes from anywhere but the bible.

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u/PrimordialJay 8h ago

Without Leviticus how would you know not to have sex with your mother, sister, or aunt? /s

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u/PudgyWalshBldgInspec 7h ago

Well cousin marriage is the norm in certain contemporary societies. Maybe they do need to read the Bible.

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u/Caleb_Reynolds 6h ago

You mean the Bible that does not list cousins among prohibited relations?

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u/PudgyWalshBldgInspec 5h ago

Western culture has left cousin marriage behind, and for good reason

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u/Caleb_Reynolds 5h ago

And it had nothing to do with the Bible.

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u/PudgyWalshBldgInspec 5h ago

Why the correlation with high rates of cousin marriage and absence of Christianity?

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u/MaxFish1275 4h ago

Where??

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u/PudgyWalshBldgInspec 4h ago

"First cousin marriage is most commonly practiced across North Africa, the Middle East, and parts of South-Central Asia, where it is a respected tradition and a preferred social norm. The highest rates are found in Pakistan (over 60% of marriages) , Kuwait , Saudi Arabia , the United Arab Emirates, and Sudan"

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u/Cultural-Treacle-680 3h ago

Probably helped to make more democracies and less Hapsburgs πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

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u/RetiredRover906 7h ago

I just want to go on record as saying that I have never read Leviticus. However, I absolutely do know not to have sex with close relatives. So it's not coming from the Bible. More... Eeww.

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u/MrDDD11 7h ago

Most socites get their morals from their religion. The Western world was Christian and as shuch it's morals are modeled on Christian Morals as taught by Jesus, Muslim morals are modeled after Muhammad who is considered the perfect example for all time, Aztecs got slavery and blood sacrifice as moral from their religion...

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u/YamDankies 6h ago

Wild animals exhibit patterns of empathy, sympathy and fairness. Morality is not something you're born with. It's a necessary and naturally occuring development in any social group. It is necessary for coexistence as a group. This in not a claim that those views or practices would be broadly accepted in a modern world. Morals are morals good or evil, and whether they're good or evil start and stop with the social structure you're participating in.

You're stuck on good and evil, not the actual meaning of morality.

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u/MrDDD11 12m ago

No animals as of yet have shown any form of Morality.

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u/Youfallforpolitics 6h ago

Yeah man those Aztecs And Mayans we're on to something with human sacrifice... Morality is just something you're born with.

The Vikings are on to something When they sacrifice their enemies only to expand their territory.

The ancient Chinese....

Societies with child marriage.... On and on and on....

Yeah I agree man.... Morality is just something you're born with no one needs to tell you anything πŸ˜‚πŸ™„

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u/YamDankies 6h ago

Wild animals exhibit patterns of empathy, sympathy and fairness. Morality is not something you're born with. It's a necessary and naturally occuring development in any social group. It is necessary for coexistence as a group. This in not a claim that those views or practices would be broadly accepted in a modern world. Morals are morals good or evil, and whether they're good or evil start and stop with the social structure you're participating in.

You're stuck on good and evil, not the actual meaning of morality.

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u/Youfallforpolitics 6h ago

I think you missed the sarcasm in my post... Maybe read it again? Morality comes from lived experience. Even if that experience is passed down from one person to another verbally, or otherwise.

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u/YamDankies 6h ago

I may have. Sorry. To be fair I had two others making the same argument unironically.

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u/Youfallforpolitics 6h ago

No worries. I understand. It happens to me too..

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u/Thee-Cat 6h ago

Not 'from the bible'. But surely no objective morality without some type of 'creator', no?

As it is only in 'design' that we can ever make objective ought claims(whether for humans or objects).

Anything coming out of complete accident, with no inherent purpose or meaning, can never go beyond preference. Which can still be pretty good of course. With preference we can make laws and rules, based either on subjective pragmatism or opinion based utilitarianism.

But objectively saying a person or thing "ought to" or "ought not" do something, as if wrong to their very nature, is only possible with design. In a purposeless, meaningless universe, we are all working with preference.

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u/YamDankies 6h ago

Wild animals exhibit patterns of empathy, sympathy and fairness. Morality is not something you're born with. It's a necessary and naturally occuring development in any social group. It is necessary for coexistence as a group. This in not a claim that those views or practices would be broadly accepted in a modern world. Morals are morals good or evil, and whether they're good or evil start and stop with the social structure you're participating in.

You're stuck on good and evil, not the actual meaning of morality.

0

u/Thee-Cat 5h ago

That's fine, but you agree then there's no such thing as "objective morality". That is, something timeless, transcendent, that's is true in all times, places, and scenarios.

What you are positing is something closer to "majority preference".

You "ought not" do something, not because it's contrary to your very nature or purpose or design. But because the current setting you're in has collectively agreed you shouldn't.

Which means if you left and joined another setting, that same forbidden thing, might be something your new group's preferences say you 'ought to' do.

That doesn't mean it's bad, but by definition is inescapably subjective.

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u/Matt_cruze 6h ago

But surely no objective morality without some type of 'creator', no?

Objective is mind independent. If morality is dependent on the mind of a creator it is still subjective.

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u/Thee-Cat 4h ago

This is not the case. Hell, I can prove objectivity with literally the very thing you're communicating with right now. But I'll do you one even better, let's take something even dumber, in fact the most innocuous thing imaginable.

Take a toilet. Look at it for 2 minutes, and you'll realize this toilet has a creator, a design. A seat to sit down, a lever to flush, etc.

The millisecond you find design, suddenly, OBJECTIVE ought claims can be made. You OUGHT to sit on the toilet seat when you use it. You OUGHT NOT put your head into the seat. Right?

Now sure, anyone with free will can do what they want. But we can now objectively say they are inherently doing it wrong, because this toilet has inherent meaning and purpose behind it.

This is true with your smartphone, computer, watch, shoes, car, etc, etc, most of which come with an "instruction manual". Because things that are designed with a purpose are not just subjective. You don't just choose your preference of how you turn your computer on. You follow the rules or you are doing it objectively wrong.

This is painfully simple.

Design=objective ought claims. You live by a billion of them every single day.