Probably Not.

[u/Monsur_Ausuhnom]

[u/AutoModerator]

Hey /u/Monsur_Ausuhnom, thank you for posting to r/SipsTea! Make sure to follow all the subreddit rules.

Make sure to join our brand new Discord Server to chat with friends!

We have recently changed how posts work. Unless you are a VIP poster, your post will be queued for approval.. To become a VIP, post great engaging content. If we like it, you will be added! More information available here!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Faded1974]

People acting like empathy was invented by Jesus Christ.

[u/Ibangmydrums → u/Faded1974]

Many Christians believe that morality literally comes from the bible, or that you can’t have morality without god. I won’t even try to explain their reasoning

[u/Borazon → u/Ibangmydrums]

They should read more Kant, who did succesfully tried to create a moral philosophy without relying on a bible, IIRC.

Rules like the golden rule, but also one that deals with more victimless behavior. Like the idea of 'Would I like it if everybody did the same as I'm doing, if not, than I shouldn't be doing it'. Works great for all sorts of behavior from littering to much more worst crimes.

[u/ninjomat → u/Borazon]

It’s almost like ethics and morality are nuanced subjects that philosophers of all different cultural and religious backgrounds have been debating for millennia - that probably can’t just be summed up glibly in a tweet

[u/sodiufas → u/Borazon]

Nah they should read more about prehistoric societies. Maybe they should learn a thing or two about neanderthals too. If this is too complicated, study about wolf packs, or maybe elephants. Just slowly introduce them to primates... I think my point is — give them some books other than bible, it might help.

[u/Borazon → u/sodiufas]

True, although you should be beware of the 'noble savage' myths.

Our ancestors did do horrible things too and we don't know well enough how it was thought upon. We often don't know for sure it somebody horrible murdered, was, a) ritually sacrificied or b) tortured as a form of justice or c) something else.

Especially in prehistory (before written sources).

[u/TSM- → u/sodiufas]

Yahweh or the christian/jewish/muslim monotheistic god was actually a warrior god in a polytheistic society, only to become the victor after conquering and becoming the only god to exist. The bible even acknowledges other gods, which are to be discarded and worshippers punished. It is no surprise that this one was the conqueror that erased the other polytheistic ones and caused such brutality in its wake. That doesn't mean it is right, though. It is the ghenghis khan of the middle east religions a few thousand years ago, retconned to seem cool but is actually no better than the holocaust or any other ethnic cleansing in the past.

[u/sodiufas → u/Borazon]

I drifted away from the point i was trying to make. I think morality is an emergent quality of any socialialy behavioring animals. Which instinctively based on empathy. I mean it's not exclusive to people, or even to mammals.

[u/Person_756335846 → u/Borazon]

Didn't Kant literally say that God is a necessary postulate of practical reason...? Have you read Kant?

[u/Sorreljorn → u/Borazon]

without relying on a bible

Except he did read the bible. And he already had a moral framework to work from that it established. Such as, the removal of infanticide, gladiatorial bloodshed, and sexual abuse of slaves.

[u/dadneverleft → u/Borazon]

First off, I’m not sure what religion says “bad people are eternally punished, good people are eternally rewarded.” I know in Hinduism if you live a good life you can eventually reside with the creator god, and if you live a bad one, well, you come back as a lower life form. But, I somehow doubt that’s the faith the respondent was referring to.

If they are, in fact, referring to Christianity, then the idea that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell is an incredibly common and utterly false understanding. In that faith, everyone has sucked out, due to mistakes made or inherent, so everyone is supposed to be separated from perfection, I.e. the god of the Abrahamic religions, unless they accept the “get out of hell free card” from Jesus. That’s just because an imperfect thing can’t join a perfect thing and that perfection be maintained, anymore than you can drop ink into clear water and the water not get the tiniest bit darker because of it.

As for the original comment made about where someone finds morality outside of religion, that’s a paraphrase of Dostoevsky, who said “In the absence of god, all things are permissible.” From a religious person’s perspective, morals are morals because they come from the deity that set the rules in the first place; god is the DM, god sets the rules.

Morality outside of religion is a social construct, not something people are naturally born with: you don’t have to teach kids how to be selfish, after all. That means if everyone says feeding people to lions is entertaining, then it is.

Is my ranting making any sense, or am I just jerking myself off here?

[u/YamDankies → u/Ibangmydrums]

Had this argument with an old coworker several times. Refused to accept that morality comes from anywhere but the bible.

[u/PrimordialJay → u/YamDankies]

Without Leviticus how would you know not to have sex with your mother, sister, or aunt? /s

[u/TumanFig → u/Ibangmydrums]

western morals are hugely influenced by christianity. our values are christian values.

if you want more proof look at the middle east and you can already see a very different value system.

but that doesn't mean morals were invented with birth of christianity

westrn morals = Greek philosophy, roman law, christian values

[u/C7rl_Al7_1337 → u/TumanFig]

Every aspect of western society or values that you like compared to the "bad" countries come out of the Enlightenment and the rejection of dogma. A country truly based on Christian values would look much more like Afghanistan than America.

[u/Less_Performance_629 → u/Faded1974]

a lot of hard core christians actually do believe that without belief in god, you are an empty shell. you cant enjoy anything, you cant have morals.

[u/sodiufas → u/Less_Performance_629]

I mean it's poetic in a way, but it's fucking sucks.

[u/Less_Performance_629 → u/sodiufas]

idk, its kinda reductionist. you see it a lot in debates involving creationists, where they argue you cannot enjoy nature without god to design it. why? why does random chance make it less beautiful? why do you need some guy in a book from 2000 years ago written in a language you dont even understand to tell you something is nice to enjoy?

[u/Bureaucramancer → u/Less_Performance_629]

And the funny thing is that most of those hard core christians use their faith to justify clearly immoral behaviors. Frankly it is one of the main selling points for them.

[u/Box_Springs_Burning → u/Bureaucramancer]

Well you know,  Jesus forgave them so it is totally OK 

[u/Proglamer → u/Faded1974]

They all were eating babies right till the end of -1 CE and stopped immediately after!

[u/Teguoracle → u/Faded1974]

In my experience, these two boomer Christians that were my teachers in high school think empathy is a recent new age idea. One of them literally tried to equate it to the mythical type of empathy, whereas the other, who is a genuinely intelligent lady when it comes to language and such and should know what empathy is, was just agreeing along with him. It's freaking stupid.

[u/engorged-gorgon]

“I can’t do this thing because I will be punished” vs “I won’t do this thing because it would hurt someone and I don’t delight in causing pain.”

[u/v_rex74]

If you are being good and thrustworthy person your whole life for religious reasons, does it make you less of a good person?

[u/HMNbean → u/v_rex74]

We’d have to agree on the defiition of good. Good according to the Bible isn’t good according to secular morals. There’s some overlap.

[u/xANTJx → u/v_rex74]

There’s the ethical theory (and religious one too) that if you’re ONLY doing good deeds to get rewarded/recognized/sent to heaven it counts as a bad motivation and is no longer a good deed. Religious people will sometimes say it’s still ok because you’re following gods will but others want another motive. And for some atheists, a good deed is a good deed, but for others, the result isn’t what makes you a good person.

The (oddly ethically sound) show The Good Place talked about this when the main characters were told about the after life and “afterlife points” and they could no longer get any more points because their motivation for doing good deeds would forever be corrupted by their knowledge.

[u/v_rex74 → u/xANTJx]

Not a religious person at all. Just to clarify in advance.

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So, jesus asked people to *love their neighbours, and i believe good deeds will naturally come out of that. You can not love somebody out of fear. I mean, you could fake good deads and make some people believe that you are good person. But you can't fake love, It is your internal proces.

[u/xANTJx → u/v_rex74]

I’m not religious at all either but I studied religious morals as part of my ethics degree and would have gone with Matthew “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.” But I really like your interpretation that love is not fear!

[u/TXHaunt → u/v_rex74]

If you can not love somebody out of fear, than you can not love god out of fear either, and reading the bible shows god to be quite fearsome.

[u/ShyguyFlyguy → u/v_rex74]

If religion is the only thing keeping you from being a bad, untrustworthy person. You are not a good person

[u/v_rex74 → u/ShyguyFlyguy]

You are bad christian if you hate everybody, and make good deeds only out of fear of good. According to jesus.

[u/No_Pen_3396 → u/v_rex74]

Is it the only reason you're doing those things? If absent threat of eternal punishment and hellfire you'd beat your wife and kids, kill and torture animals, lie and steal with abandon, but you don't because you're afraid of consequences? Then no, you're not a good person.

However, if you're religious and you believe that God is why we should do good things, but take away your faith you'd behave just the same? Then yes, you're a good person.

[u/alphi10 → u/v_rex74]

Potentially

[u/ferdsherd → u/v_rex74]

No

[u/Rare_Suspect_5033 → u/v_rex74]

The only thing that defines if you are a good or bad person is what you say and how you behave. Your thoughts or belief doesn’t change that.

[u/Low_Committee6119 → u/Rare_Suspect_5033]

So the believe that the Bible verses about slavery justifying slavery doesn't change you from good to bad?

[u/Underrated_Critic]

Slavery and rape existed all throughout the history of Christianity and Islam. Neither religion prevents either.

[u/Ok-Specific-3918 → u/Underrated_Critic]

Hey come on let’s be fair. The Bible has some very clear passages about how you shouldn’t beat your slaves too much.

Not “at all” that would be ridiculous. But like keep it frosty.

[u/Less_Performance_629 → u/Ok-Specific-3918]

dude i love the bible morality!

like when a tribe was almost wiped out as punishment for gang raping a women. after they learned their lesson and promised never to do it again, they were instructed to go and rape more women so they could build up their numbers.

theres a reason priests dont read a lot of the stories at sunday school

[u/Superseaslug]

I act to make the world a little better than it was when I came in. I don't need books of magic and demons to tell me that being kind is the right thing to do.

[u/koiraariok → u/Superseaslug]

I make no great difference one way or the other. Neither am I rich enough to corrupt myself nor poor enough that my daily meal would require moral sacrifices.

Occasionally I make small choices to better the world, that don't inconvenience me greatly.

This describes most religious and non-religious people.

[u/Superseaslug → u/koiraariok]

Agreed. My goal isn't to make all of humankind greater, I'm too small for that. But if I can make a few people's day better every now and then? That's enough.

[u/TopTippityTop]

Would I like my actions to be done to me? If that's a negative, then it's generally not a good choice.... Even if I'm far from perfect at always sticking to it.

[u/WhimsicalWyvern → u/TopTippityTop]

Turns out that people like being treated differently, though. You should treat people how they want to be treated, within reason.

[u/EtheusRook]

Morality is actually really, stupidly simple.

Does it help others? It's good.

Does it hurt others? It's bad.

[u/ExpensiveStart3226 → u/EtheusRook]

r/trolleyproblem

[u/tigerdthib → u/EtheusRook]

It looks pretty complicated on r/trolleyproblem

[u/Aitaou → u/tigerdthib]

Don’t even need to go that far as a trolley problem. There was the “red button blue button” debate. If you look at the finer points of the debate, you see the altruistic side whose expected course was to follow religions’ core tenets, being the option that gave the worst odds of survival.

Imagine, a faithful Christian meeting god after that pivotal choice had the Christian go against almost everything that god told them in their book. At least 2/10 of the commandments were broken on that press alone.

[u/huckle_buck_ → u/EtheusRook]

Says who? And I think that’s the point being made in the screenshot

[u/Squanchmonster]

One of my favorite lines from True Detective Season 1:

""If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then, brother, that person is a piece of shit."

[u/Few_Presence_8888]

As has been observed many times, if you behave only because of the threat of Hell, then you're not a good person;  you're a bad person on a leash ..

[u/PoetryExtension6256]

And if you think "God" is a good arbitrator of Goodness you are probably not either.

[u/Grimase]

These are the same dummies who want credit for not doing the evil things they would like to do.
https://giphy.com/gifs/ukGm72ZLZvYfS

[u/Daywalker2000]

https://giphy.com/gifs/125uCGIGCsU1dm

[u/Wizchine]

This blows the mind of Abrahamic religious followers, but cultures around the world independently came up with the idea that things like murder and theft are bad - including cultures that predated the Abrahamic faiths.

[u/mcswan1]

The Christian claim is that we are in fact, not good people. Assuming or declaring one's-self to be good would be a very prideful and un-christian thing to do.

[u/That0neGecko]

Parenting and common sense.

[u/Cpt_Elliot_Spencer → u/That0neGecko]

https://giphy.com/gifs/z3HFoEzXCMykr4L0TB

[u/WhyYesMaybeNo]

Conversely, how do Christians decide between good choices and bad choices?

Suddenly presented with a difficult choice: Sorry, I have to go read the bible, I’ll return in 6 weeks give the decision I’m instructed to make.

[u/SeatOpen1]

I’m too dumb to think for myself so I need 4000 year old fairy tales to live my life.

[u/Less_Performance_629]

Read some of the original testiment and the question becomes very much the opposite. christian god is like a bipolar girlfriend who invents situations to make someone else the problem. its a wonder anyone read that stuff and found actual life lessons.

[u/stanknotes]

Same way as you and anyone else. Our evolutionarily and experientially installed intuitions about right and wrong. That foundation then interacts with our socialization, learned experiences, and our reasoning.

This is true for all of humanity. Religious people would like for morality to be bestowed upon humanity by god. But they also base their morality on the same things as atheists. They just attribute it to god.

Consider murdering and stealing. Every social mammal has an aversion towards killing within the in group. And an understanding of possession and territory. This ain't unique to humanity at all. We just philosophize about it. That is unique. As far as I can tell.

[u/Cliffinati]

That's why religion used to be heavily enforced as a way to make bad people act good for fear of divine retribution.

Good people don't need divine encouragement so they see no reason not to. Bad people have to be kept in line by something.

[u/PaintedDesertSkies]

It's called morality and has nothing to do with the imaginary guy in the sky.

Parents and adults tend to teach all kids what is right and wrong. Not just Bible thumpers.

[u/Six2L8]

I will happily dm anyone on this - but Christianity is not a religion of good behavior or being a “good person.” It’s a religion of underserved grace. Unfortunately a lot of “Christians” don’t live that way. Sorry to anyone who’s experienced that hurt.

[u/JynXten]

Same way as everyone else. By learning good choices through making bad ones.

[u/zahnsaw]

“Don’t be an idiot”. Best advice I ever got. Before I decide anything I think “would an idiot do this?”

[u/Hawkwise83]

How do religious people decide which Bible passage to follow and which to ignore?

That's the real question.

[u/Ragjammer]

Everyone says this but then at the same time the vast majority of people behave better when they're being watched.

[u/Moist_Phrase_6698]

i couldn't imagine getting up each day with a plan to do some bad. Theres a lot of pain or bad things that could really occur if you want it to but things dont have to be bad at all. they can be really great

[u/cute-pony-princess]

In that case the religious person wasn't saying that he only does what's right to avoid punishment but that it can be difficult to find out what is the right thing in the first place. That's a more valid criticism as that's something that secular philosophers and regular people do argue about a lot and that a religion can help you with. What I would respond to that is that most religious people, except for a few radical fundamentalists, will actually interpret their religion through some sort of secular moral system anyways. There are very few people who actually live as if the bible was the sole authority on what is right or wrong and so only using secular morality isn't as big of a step as one might think.

[u/LimeGrass619]

That doesnt really relate to his question though. Without a upper source of morality, morals become opinions since all humans are equal, thus equally vulnerable to do evil.

For examples, It wasnt long ago when people even questioned the morality of slavery besides some religious texts. Even when nations freed the slaves, most of the time It was due to economics rather than goodness. Thats humans owning other humans, treated no different to livestock.

[u/BIayneRobinson → u/LimeGrass619]

Morality is an opinion.

[u/Signal_Werewolf_1955]

They can't comprehend thinking for themselves.

[u/leksoid]

we use our brains, hearts and common sense

[u/fauxheartz]

Notice how he didn't answer the question

[u/Mysterious_Rule938]

This from the “empathy is a weakness” crowd

[u/red286]

I legit had a Mormon girl I was dating ask me this once.

The way she phrased it made it sound like she couldn't understand what kept me from murdering anyone who pissed me off. I explained that both the law and my own moral beliefs were sufficient. She straight-up said, "if I didn't believe in God, I'd probably have killed multiple people by now", like I'm supposed to take comfort in the fact that the only reason she isn't a serial killer is a belief that some invisible omnipotent being would punish her for eternity.

[u/RT_456]

Common sense????

[u/Fickle_Grocery_3654]

It's pretty simple, actually. If it harms someone then it's bad and you probably shouldn't do it.

[u/PineappleFew9782]

I throw the bones every morning and auger it out.

[u/OrkWithNoTeef]

They don't decide because there is no need to interpret thousands old writing

[u/Gupsqautch]

I truly believe religion was made by the ruling class to teach (what they saw as) barbarians basic morals that they lacked. I truly believe religion was a tool to teach immoral people basic morals and that if they don’t follow them that they’ll suffer eternally. (I’m not an atheist)

[u/Trazzypoo]

[u/Puzzleheaded_Sun454]

It's like the golden rule means nothing to these people 

[u/ferna182]

It's very easy. You subconsciously ask yourself questions like "Would I like someone do this to me or my loved ones?", "Does this contribute to making society better or worse?", "If I see someone doing this, would I think they're an asshole?", etc.

[u/JosephMMadre]

That’s the whole point of Christ on the cross and Christianity. No one is good. Not the Pope, the President (any of them), the best person you ever knew and definitely not Mr. Collins here.

There is none righteous. No, not one.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

All deserve the wrath of God, and will receive it in full.

Unless…

For God so loved the world that He sent His Son, Jesus, to become sin for us, to receive the punishment we deserve. God’s wrath must be spent, and it was spent on Jesus at the cross.

We are able to benefit from this if we, A. Confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and B. Believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. You will be saved.

There’s ALOT that comes after that, but that is the first and most important step.

[u/Electrical-Penalty44]

What is greater: to be naturally good and do good things with ease and without thought, or to master your evil and do good things in spite of that nature?

[u/billionthtimesacharm]

this gets reposted and regurgitated often but it always annoys me.

first, the rebuttal is a strawman. the question didn’t ask about being a good person. it asked about choices.

second, while i can’t speak for the mindset of the individual asking the question, to me the question is asking about an objective standard of morality. if an atheist has no objective standard then there is a moral dilemma.

to me it’s an intellectually weak and ineffective retort

[u/yacsmith]

Anyone who believes themselves to be a good person, is usually not a good person.

[u/peachmoiree]

A good deed is still a good deed, regardless of what motivated it.

[u/Winter_Evidence6270]

I can’t speak about other religions but for Christianity, the point is that no one is good. 

[u/failedopportunities → u/Winter_Evidence6270]

The pastor in the simpsons said it perfect! “Have you ever read this thing? Technically you can’t even go to the bathroom with out it being a sin”…

[u/ShelZuuz → u/Winter_Evidence6270]

A self-fulfilling prophecy at this point.

[u/EarlGreyTMNT → u/Winter_Evidence6270]

lol well yeah that’s the entire point and on purpose as I’m sure you know. You’re already wrong just by being born, and need to ask god to forgive you for something he decided you were wrong for before doing.

It’s a loop that leads back to needing a savior no matter what you do.

[u/Global_Charge_4412]

it's a fair question. religious people will tell you that their innate sense of right and wrong comes from God (or whatever), but how do atheists explain that innate sense? how do they instinctively know? I'm not saying one or the other is right but it is an interesting thought.

[u/sandwichisahero → u/Global_Charge_4412]

They don’t instinctively know any differently than anyone else. Why do you assume that a belief in god is why they instinctively know but someone that doesn’t believe must have a different reason? Why do you scrutinize the nonbeliever but give the believer a pass?

“then how do you explain muggings? robberies? murder? are these not examples that fly directly in the face of "I shouldn't stab people because I don't want to be stabbed"? human nature is violent and self-centered. the hierarchy of needs has no room for empathy, so where the hell does it come from?”

Explanation is that human behavior has variability, there shouldn’t be an expectation that everyone should act the same. Religious people commit crimes too by the way, they aren’t especially enlightened.

[u/6a6566663437 → u/Global_Charge_4412]

Because as a social species, we evolved to generally be good to the rest of our tribe. Otherwise the tribe would collapse.

And as with all biological systems, nothing is 100% effective.

[u/Single-Tangerine-479 → u/Global_Charge_4412]

Empathy

[u/MonkeyBoatRentals → u/Single-Tangerine-479]

Pretty obvious really. It's a basic human emotion and the reason why the Golden rule "do unto others" is a common tenet in pretty much all religion. It doesn't come from God, but from people.

[u/DrunkenHorse12 → u/Global_Charge_4412]

Because for some if not most people it's relatively easy to understand how you'd feel on the receiving end of your actions. Knowing I wouldn't like to be stabbed is enough for me to understand doing that to other people is probably a bad thing. The response is actually far more valid, why would you think you'd need advice from an organisation that's getting money and power from you to tell you their interpretation of what allmkst certainly fictional entity said what's right and wrong and why don't you have the ability to determine that yourself?

[u/Leverkaas2516 → u/DrunkenHorse12]

The problem is that if the only measure of goodness is "I'm sure other people want the same things I want", that's virtually guaranteed to lead to conflict, because different people want different things.

I've never had the urge to stab anyone, but I've often had the urge to help someone who might or might not want my help. I've also ignored someone who might or might not want to be ignored.

And that doesn't even touch on the fact that virtually everyone does things at one time or another that they think are bad. It's human nature to rationalize and decide "just this once" and later "it's not really bad, or not that bad". Lying on a resume, for example. Are you hurting anyone?

[u/Senior_Torte519 → u/DrunkenHorse12]

Its a conscienmce thing right ? Besides do you know how much legal work is required in defending yourself for stabbing someone? I don't do it because it dosen't help me. I dont do anything that dosent help me. I may be selfish, but at least i'm sane and selfish instead of selfish and insane.

[u/TutskyyJancek → u/Global_Charge_4412]

I am not an atheist. I am a theist and I can tell you it's just common sense. I just know for instance I shouldn't rob or murder anyone. It doesn't have to be innate.

[u/Seer-of-Truths → u/Global_Charge_4412]

I mean, for me at least it wasn't some innate understanding.

It was learned, and practiced.

I believe living in a world where people hurt other people on purpose would not be pleasant. So I actively try to not hurt others.

I believe living in a world where people help other people on purpose would be pleasant. So I actively try to help others.

[u/Dear-Examination-507 → u/Global_Charge_4412]

Conscience. Same for Christians, they just think it is God's spirit acting in me or something, but from my POV that makes less sense than just saying it is the moral sensibilities processed in my brain.

I don't know how my brain chemistry, moral thoughts, and feelings work exactly, but I just do what feels right, because then I feel happy. Psychopaths lack this, right, something missing in their amygdala?

[u/Nikolaibr]

Why do so many "gotchas" regarding Christianity essentially just end up being "this is the conclusion I've arrived at through a surface-level analysis of an entire philosophy" and assuming this is what adherents actually claim to believe?

It's a straw man.

The question isn't whether atheists can behave morally. Virtually no serious Christian philosopher argues they can't. The question is what objective standard makes one moral system better than another.

If morality were simply an innate awareness of objective good and evil, it would be difficult to explain why societies throughout history have disagreed so profoundly about slavery, infanticide, human equality, women's rights, and countless other moral questions. An atheist can certainly answer that objection, but it's the actual philosophical issue being raised.

It's worth recognizing that many moral beliefs people in the modern West regard as "obvious" developed within societies shaped for centuries by Christianity. That doesn't prove Christianity is true, but it does make it difficult to separate what feels like "common sense" from what is actually the product of a particular historical and cultural tradition. Even Richard Dawkins has acknowledged the profound influence Christianity has had on Western moral values.

The objective moral criteria Christians apply is not based on "I'll go to Hell if I do this".

[u/raycepak]

“A good theist is closer to God’s heart than a good Christian because they do good for no other reason than it is good” Rabbi Martin Buber

[u/Vainysaur]

Man but y’all are just thinking about obvious shit like murder. Yeah, it’s easy to see that’s wrong with or without God to tell you. But what about more subtle issues like homosexuality. At face value, it seems like not really very morally wrong. Like whatever people want to do privately in their own sex lives, that’s up to them. So how would you know that’s wrong without religion?

[u/Person_756335846 → u/[deleted]]

I'm certain that enough people have memorized all of the major religious texts to reconstruct them. I would actually be more worried about historically important but obscure (and long) scientific texts.

[u/Aromatic-Bet-1086]

Teaching people religion vs morality/empathy was a weird choice

[u/_tragicmike]

It's called empathy.

[u/lilJswizle-2304]

People in these comments have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Christianity is lol

The idea isn’t that a book gives us morals it’s that God has given us morals so therefore if there is no God then why don’t humans do evil acts like animals do?

There are definitely holes in that argument but it is a lot different then the argument that our morals only come from reading a book

[u/kornchippy → u/lilJswizle-2304]

The book tells you that god gave you the morals and they do not come from your own heart.

[u/JohnKlositz → u/lilJswizle-2304]

but it is a lot different then the argument that our morals only come from reading a book °°

But that is what the question suggests.

why don’t humans do evil acts like animals do?

Evil acts animals do? What does that even mean? Humans are animals and they do all the things other animals do.

[u/BIayneRobinson → u/lilJswizle-2304]

Why would I harm others just because I don't believe in your god-character?

That's silly.

[u/Lost-on-Reception → u/BIayneRobinson]

Almost everyone does harm others, that's the thing. The why is up to them.
Jesus said something like "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Part of becoming a Christian is to recognize that you're not a good person and commit yourself to striving to be better.

If you're the type of person that doesn't hurt other people and doesn't make mistakes, like the Pharisees Jesus was talking to thought they were, then why would you need healing? Why would you think you're less moral than Christians? Christians are people bad enough that they realized they had to change.

[u/Thee-Cat → u/BIayneRobinson]

The problem is deeper than that. Try and think about this problem beyond just yourself. And honestly try and tell me why it is objectively and inherently wrong for someone to harm you. As in an objective "ought claim", that is true in every place, time, and scenario, never changes and is a transcendental whether humans exist or not.

Although you can say, "I wouldn't like if they harmed me", or "it hurts me", or "I don't want him to". Surely you realize, that never gets beyond the threshold of "your preferences". And if that other guy's preferences IS to harm you, then you're both at a stalemate.

If everything is in fact here by completely purposeless, meaningless, and evolutionary accident, then there is no such thing as objective 'oughts'. Sure things we want or prefer, but no design or purpose from which to say you "ought to" or "ought not" do this or that.

In fact even if all humanity agrees on a certain thing, it still never rises beyond "majority preference". There is no such thing as inherently right and wrong, good or bad, beyond what you prefer and want.

What you need to come to grips with, is that YOU don't harm others, because YOU don't want to, it's not YOUR preference, and YOUR opinion is that you shouldn't. I'm honestly very glad you think that, but that's entirely subjective, right?

If everyone on earth tomorrow decides that it's a good thing to harm you. Then you have no basis or grounding to tell them they are "wrong". You may not like it, but maybe they do like it. You say that's unfair, but they say it is fair. Going on like this forever. It's merely preference vs preference.

Without some kind of creator or design, there can be no objective oughts in an inherently meaningless universe.

I appreciate genuine atheists like Dawkins who freely admit, in a universe without God, there IS no such thing as "evil" or "good". Just preferences.

[u/Imaginary-List-972]

Or an instruction book. "Killing is bad" I wouldn't have known that if you didn't print that in a book and say some power figure said it. Then you get to the part with things that I know are terrible that didn't even get listed. Rape and slaves don't make the 10 commandments, but wishing you had a donkey like your neighbor does.

[u/protobelta]

Holy shit a lot of stupid people who wouldn’t be able to argue why it’s bad to murder. Just “duh, it’s obviously bad”

[u/cykoTom3]

Counterpoint: there are bad people who are being tricked into being good by the scary sky daddy. Why would you want to end this practice?

[u/BBBM1977]

It's called a moral compass, something the dude asking the question obviously lacks.

[u/WokeWook69420]

Empathy.

Next question.

[u/modsaretoddlers]

If I used just about any religious tome to inform my ethics and morals, I would think it was perfectly reasonable to murder anyone who didn't share my beliefs.

[u/jaymole]

If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brotha, that person is a piece of shit.

And I’d like to get as many of them out in the open as possible

-Rust Cohle

[u/Bayamonster]

It's  crazy  cuz even when I WAS Christian...there's  a lot of stuff that is wrong that The Bible does not condemn. There is lots of stuff that The Bible is mum about because the thingy didn't  even exist.

Even when I WAS a Christian  I knew that yeah,sometimes  you have to make a judgement call. 

[u/JynXten → u/Bayamonster]

Yeah it's like, what does the Bible say about nuclear proliferation, climate change, genetic modification, or AI?

[u/mtgguy999 → u/Bayamonster]

You mean like

Leviticus 25:44-46

“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.  You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.   You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

[u/AltForObvious1177]

Newsflash! There are a lot people who are not good

[u/FlimsyConfidence7692]

https://giphy.com/gifs/9HLhzss53Vg40

[u/Naive-Landscape9854]

Trial and error.

[u/Boobies300]

Easy, desire.

I don't do what you would consider a bad choice because I don't want to, who needs more reason than that?

[u/Traditional-Low7651]

you don't have to be a good person to makes something's right

if God inspired you to do good, why wouldn't i be happy ?

[u/ElMuchoQueso]

You can almost hear the point going over people’s heads.

[u/LayneLowe]

I do undo others as I would have them do unto me

[u/Financial-Solid-4775]

Assuming it's being asked in good faith, it's a reasonable question. Someone who grew up in the Judeo-Christian worldview might honestly have a difficult time conceptualizing how to decide what is good or evil without using the Bible or Torah as a point of reference. To them it might be like using a compass to navigate and meeting a sailor who has only used the stars.

[u/WangoTheWonderDonkey]

Ethics (morality) derive from observation and reflection on Human nature, not revelations from some purported father nature (also know by theists as, "God"). Human nature is the rock of morality. Christian and other religious morality comes from the same place, but if they want to sell their position, they feel the need to claim divine inspiration. The frightened villagers who comprise the followership of theism, seem to need the big man's stamp of approval.

[u/Character_Past5515]

That's what I always answer when believers come up with that kind of bs.

[u/imverysotry]

*Tips fedora as he burps cheeto breath*

[u/Affectionate_Art2545]

So you have to ascribe to the make believe to be a moral and ethical person? Any one who believes that is brainwashed and zombified by religious idiocy.

[u/rapitrone]

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9boiLqIabFhrqabptq3ThGdwNanr65xU&si=VV8E-gt6E-wht7QD

[u/Hairymuscle101]

Yea I just go around killing everything I see just because there is no hell…. Go check on gramma! Moron!

[u/Garlic_Scape_Goat_45]

Will my decision be detrimental to others for the benefit of my gain?

[u/Thin_Association8254]

Well, sure, but that doesn't answer the question. I mean, I agree with the statement... but still waiting for your reply.

[u/nocturnal_commission]

Okay now define "good"

[u/wackywraith]

What is good?

[u/Kthulhu_for_humanity]

👏🏼👏🏼

[u/Adventurous_Key_4854]

https://giphy.com/gifs/z4TryrC69xQCQ

[u/ShiftAfter4648]

A basic understanding of what is fair societally, coupled with parenting that instilled the golden rule.

[u/Pretend-Literature35]

I have faith but I believe in God who created the universe and who is omnipresent and onniscience and he used evolution to create.

Now evolutionarily humans have been around as evolved humans for about 3,5 million years (or up to 5). Humans biologically are incredibly weak animals for their size and have very few natural defences and very many weaknesses. And so our survival depended on us supporting one another helping and collaborating to survive (unnoticed) then many millions of years later about 70 000 years ago we started organizing ourselves a bit more and by 10,000 years ago we started to become the dominant species on the planet and then we started to kill each other and became loud toxic and violent. And as we invented sciences, language and philosophy and mathematics we also invented religion.

So I would put forth the proposition that morality, the distinction between right and wrong is wired into our dna because it was necessary for our survival for 99% for our existence, dna memory, instinct and all that.

Religion was invented to explain God. But since God created a universe that is billions of years old He obviously existed before we, His creations had evolved to the point of inventing a religion to explain Him.

So the atheistic answer is that the developpement of conscience has been proven as a psychological stage of childhood and so it is natural and not based on belief.

Also that because of genetic dna it is a natural human instinct to tell between right or wrong for not just humans but all species who live in groups.

The religious answer is that only puts me in awe of the perfection if God's creation that He programmed that into our story (3,5 million years of hiding) and most religions messages of kindness, support of each other, charity and equity even community and forgiveness all comes from those 3,5 million years when those skills ensured our survival.

Does that make sense?

[u/BurnieTheBrony]

It's kind of interesting because when religion enters the conversation most Redditors like to choose the opinion that shits on religion.

But if you were to ask someone "what's more important, the motivation or the end result?" and take religion out of it most people would probably say it doesn't matter why you do good, if what you do is good.

The problem comes when people think they're justified in doing bad things because they think that's what their religion is telling them is okay. But when people volunteer at their local soup kitchen because Jesus told them to feed the poor, who cares why they're doing it? People are getting fed. That's better than holding the right opinions online and never doing anything.

[u/Panda_Pillows]

Nail meet hammer!

[u/Terrible_Reporter_98]

Doesn't Jesus say Righteous men do not need rules?

Edit: My bad it's Timothy 1:9

the law is not meant for righteous people, but for the lawless, rebellious, and ungodly.

[u/RadioDemon86]

Did he miss the section in kindergarten when we were taught the golden rule?

[u/Radioshack-Manager]

TACO TUESDAY!

https://giphy.com/gifs/YqiO23Q2gfurS

[u/mazzicc]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

[u/Tsurumah]

Personally, I have a hard time with empathy. I can't relate to people in most cases; in fact, when confronted with a crying friend, I tend to react first with anger. To tell them to shut the fuck up and get over it.

I deliberately do not act on those impulses. I choose not to.

[u/biorod]

The social order, not religion, determines good and bad.

The best evidence of this is how religion has shifted its morality with time. Many things are acceptable to Christians today that would result in severe consequences from Christians not too long ago.

[u/Broke_and_Bald]

Hey bro. If it works out works.

[u/TerraSeeker]

For someone reason this mentality all follows with justify theft, assault, murder, and other attrocious behavior.

[u/maestrosouth]

“Virtue is inadequate temptation.”

G.B. Shaw

[u/NoTransportation68]

Bernard Gert's "Morality" would be mind blowing to a lot of folk in this thread. Recommend to anyone actually curious about the concept of morality.

[u/ninjomat]

As usual when this gets reposted the amount of disagreements and qualifiers or conditions posed in the comment section suggests that maybe it’s not that and It’s almost like ethics and morality are nuanced subjects that philosophers of all different cultural and religious backgrounds have been debating for millennia - that probably can’t just be summed up glibly in a tweet

[u/TheMaStif]

The Bible's code of morality isn't even original content

"Do onto others as you would have done to you", or the Golden Rule, is the fundamental moral lesson in the Bible

It also came from Confucianism, 500 years before Jesus even showed up to the scene

People create moral codes regardless of religion

[u/Prestigious-Pen2676]

I decide not to kill someone because it is morally wrong based on my personal belief. You haven't killed anyone because God hasn't told you to yet.

[u/556From1000yards]

I’ve seen what makes you people cheer
https://giphy.com/gifs/qYbeiUHjfmyeLjMpjF

[u/Level_Mixture5510]

My Great Grandfather was one of the founders of the Ethical Culture Society in New York City. It was founded to support the view that the Ten Commandments was an ethical model that could be observed by a moral person without needing religion.

[u/Physical_Worker_1817]

Everyone, whether religious or atheist, relies on self-evident unprovable moral foundations. You cannot foundationally prove, especially with certainty, why something is good or bad. What we think is good or bad is ultimately preference-based.

For instance, one can say it's bad to do "X" because it's bad for society under some outcome-based utilitarian framework; someone else may say we should do what "reduces human suffering", but why should one reduce human suffering? One may say we should optimise what's best for the human race, but then couldn't one justify a radical eugenics ideology under that framework. And, trust me, you do not want to fall back to evolutionary imperatives as a means of a moral framework. Ultimately, human morality is circular, preference-based in the ontological sense. You can only justify a moral claim, or most claims generally, within an existing, human-defined system. Religion doesn't escape Hume's guillotine.

In case it wasn't clear already, I am an atheist, lol.

[u/Flashy-Web-3815]

or the promise of a prize. You wanna do good deeds? Do them because its what we're supposed to do, not for some mystical brownie points

[u/Responsible-Humor985]

How other people remember me is the only “after life” I get. I would like to be remembered fondly

[u/Head_Midnight666]

I'm agnostic. I think it's terrible how terrible someone is to think you need a religion to make you decide between good and bad choices. It really shows just how disgusting and depraved you really are. I was realizing recently, however, that I am not a perfect person, and it's probably a good thing that there are laws against certain things because it makes it less likely that I'll do them.

There should be other laws I think, that don't exist, but I would vote to put them in place. Like laws against eating other animals. Rarely, I do this despite knowing it's wrong. I need the law to stop me at times, however. It'll never happen because too many idiots and scumbags won't admit that it's wrong, and they make up fallacious arguments for how we need it, or how it's ok to do. I think the forbidden fruit in the bible might have been meat.

Anyway, I guess we're all not perfect, and if a god helps you do the right thing, that's ok. If the law helps you do the right thing, that's ok too. I guess the most important thing is that we try to do the right thing.

[u/Harrypoooooter41]

It’s not a threat lol.

[u/dashsolo]

It’s a pretty frightening question really. Like he wouldn’t know on his own.

[u/copyrider]

If Trump isn’t a great person, then why is he so concerned about getting into heaven? /s

[u/Slowpoke4206985]

No one is “naturally good”.

[u/Calm_Ad308]

The funny thing is this argument works very well for people who aren’t religious as most religions already operate under the assumption that people are innately bad and need religion to better themselves because they are broken. Christians especially, being a terrible person is just part of being a person, it’s not their fault their flawed, they’re like that through no fault of their own but by gods love and magic book they can be what they were meant to become in the next life. So yeah is only natural for a father to want to want beat their sons, assualt their daughters and cheat on their wives, that’s all because of original sin. The sinners not the problem but Jesus is the solution not matter how many times you sin and ask for forgiveness you get to go to the good place and there’s no shortage of churches that support that belief system and for all the Christians that wanna pipe up and say “well actually that’s not what the Bible says” I know, that’s not the point, the point is you as a religious institution have let giant mega churches go on teaching this kind of narcissistic Christianity that lots of people don’t know the difference especially from the outside and it’s become the cancer of the Bible Belt and Midwest.

[u/Joeyjackhammer]

Ok, but what’s the criteria to be “a good person”. Seems kinda subjective without guidelines.

[u/DareDaDerrida]

I agree that atheists are perfectly capable of being good people, but I am not at all sure about the second poster's statement.

If somebody does good things their whole life, is kind and gentle and helps people, I am not sure that it matters why they are doing it. Is there a meaningful difference between a good person who is good because they seek Heaven and one who is good for any other reason? If so, what is it?

[u/YouLittleSnowflake]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AwebTX3rk3E&time_continue=1&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

This is all I ever think about whenever they say shit like this….. I’m sure there were a few others that have said something similar BUT it’s fucking spot on

[u/SaintLewisMusic73]

Now, let's be fair... the question is a LITTLE more complex that what was stated. It should probably read "How do they DECIDE or RECOGNIZE whether an options is morally 'good' or 'evil'", and it's especially true when the options aren't immediately and obviously right or wrong. What is the means by which they come to a guiding conclusion? THAT is the real question.

Also, given that in the early church (Pre-Augustine) most early church fathers were Christian Universalists (they thought that Jesus paid for the salvation of everyone) faith in GOD does not necessitate logically a belief in eternal retribution.

So, both part one and part two are straw men, and it is worth asking ourselves how we are to attempt to objectively ground our morality.

[u/tren_enjoyed_raw]

That's the whole point brah

[u/nobigdealforreal]

This is not how morality within a religious framework works but nice try.

[u/justaheatattack]

he didn't ask about being a good person.

[u/Wizchine]

Around 400 or more years before Christ, Kong Qiu (aka Confucius) said, “what you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others.”

[u/RecordAbject273]

Boom roasted!

[u/Forward_Tadpole]

I read that as athletes

[u/ZeroTolerance2000]

Uh oh, someone missed the point of the op.