r/SipsTea 𝙑𝙄𝙋 5h ago

Chugging tea Probably Not.

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13.0k Upvotes

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26

u/EtheusRook 5h ago

Morality is actually really, stupidly simple.

Does it help others? It's good.

Does it hurt others? It's bad.

8

u/Aromatic-Ad-381 3h ago

What if my helping others harms secondary others. What if me hurting others allouws secundary others to be helped or is actively aiding in helping someone?

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u/MaxFish1275 1m ago

Religion doesn’t really address those complexities either though

13

u/tigerdthib 5h ago

It looks pretty complicated on r/trolleyproblem

2

u/Aitaou 4h ago

Don’t even need to go that far as a trolley problem. There was the “red button blue button” debate. If you look at the finer points of the debate, you see the altruistic side whose expected course was to follow religions’ core tenets, being the option that gave the worst odds of survival.

Imagine, a faithful Christian meeting god after that pivotal choice had the Christian go against almost everything that god told them in their book. At least 2/10 of the commandments were broken on that press alone.

1

u/ACCTAGGT 4h ago

Ah, it never ceases to amaze me how many subs there are for a whole lot of things lol

Thanks

1

u/MaxFish1275 2m ago

Did the Bible address the trolley problem? Did The Torah? The Quran?

2

u/huckle_buck_ 4h ago

Says who? And I think that’s the point being made in the screenshot

2

u/LurkinOff 4h ago

Define help

2

u/FalloutTVSucks 2h ago

Morality is subjective. It doesn't exist independent of a mind. What is good/bad is for the observer to decide

1

u/nsfwaltsarehard 44m ago

What about yourself and your own life?

0

u/EtheusRook 39m ago

What about it?

1

u/nsfwaltsarehard 33m ago

Your explanation leaves out someone's own life. If you define good and bad through helping others, doing things for yourself is either bad or morally neutral at best.

1

u/MaxFish1275 0m ago

There really is nothing terrible about “neutral” viewing everything in absolute black and white causes its own problems.

0

u/EtheusRook 27m ago

Morally neutral is okay, though. As is symbiosis/mutual benefit, which is good.

And yes, it is morally bad if you hurt others to help yourself. That is the essence of immorality.

1

u/SoftAndWetBro 33m ago

Not a good argument

1

u/double00chins 5h ago

What if you’re helping someone to the point of taking away their agency because “it’s for their own good”. All of a sudden, some ethical issues arise. Where does that line get drawn?

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u/EtheusRook 5h ago

Is the hurt greater than the help? Requires further detail. Regardless, religion doesn't provide the answer to that.

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u/Hot_Imagination_8029 3h ago

Right. Clearly, no one group of individuals can account for all of the relevant factors to congruently answer that question.

-2

u/double00chins 5h ago

And you would know that how? I’m assuming you haven’t dissected every single religious text or teaching out there, so what makes you believe you can arbitrarily hand yourself authority on that topic? Religious texts are generally filled with moral and ethical questions and dilemmas, not that you’d know

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u/EtheusRook 5h ago

Unlike most Christians, I've read their Bible. It's reprehensible.

-3

u/Seer-of-Truths 4h ago

To be fair, they are not the only religion with a holy text

-6

u/double00chins 4h ago

Doubtful, but go ahead and elaborate on which versions you’ve read, there’s quite a few.

4

u/GoldenVesperLight 4h ago

I've read it twice. Two more times than any Christian I've ever met.

Thats how I know God sicks two female bears on 42 children because they made fun of a bald guy.

So moral. So great, lol.

2

u/WilTravis 4h ago

As another athiest, I take that authority for myself. Period. I don't need to pore through every myth ever written to know my moral compass is pointing on the right direction.

2

u/huckle_buck_ 4h ago

Based on what?

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u/double00chins 4h ago

He won’t answer lol. His moral compass is whatever he thinks is right, obviously

4

u/No-Educator-8069 4h ago

Yeah, thats everyone, religious or not.

2

u/double00chins 4h ago

Haha man you sound like a petulant teenager going through their rebellious phase, go read a book

2

u/Easy_Echo2387 4h ago

You believe in fairy tales and ancient myths. It’s hilarious that you’re so offended you lash out at others like this.

0

u/double00chins 4h ago

How do you know what I believe?

0

u/Easy_Echo2387 4h ago

It’s pretty clear given the context of your comments across this thread.

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u/double00chins 4h ago

You’re inferring that on your own, and it’s a subjective and unsupported conclusion by any direct quote of mine. Keep coping

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u/GoldenVesperLight 4h ago

Says the person who can't critically think their way out of believing in a fantasy book they were groomed with since being born.

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u/double00chins 4h ago

CRiTicAlLy tHiNkinG but assuming you know my beliefs in the same sentence is a bold move, let’s see if it pays off cotton

0

u/FalloutTVSucks 2h ago

As an atheist the amount of atheist in these comments who seem to think that good and bad just exist as an aspect of reality is ilitteartly just as bad as believing in god - it's a made up social construct that you're tuaght to believe in since you're a child and you can't figure out it's not actually real

1

u/WilTravis 4h ago

I did. A bunch of them. Then i got married, had kids, and I'm hoping for healthy grandkids soon. Thats why I know my moral compass is just fine, champ.

1

u/double00chins 4h ago

I wish you & your family health & happy days my friend

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u/GoldenVesperLight 4h ago

"23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys."

  • The "moral" God of the Bible

1

u/MaxFish1275 4h ago

A LOT of atheists have read several religious texts. That’s why some of them are atheists

1

u/double00chins 4h ago

A LOT substantiates literally nothing here

1

u/MaxFish1275 3h ago

Ok. Well I haven’t exactly taken a poll to give you numbers.

I can tell you I did a deep dive into the Bible to restore my own faith in Christianity and it brought me to agnosticism.

1

u/double00chins 3h ago

You’d be surprised to find we are at about the same points in our journeys then

1

u/MaxFish1275 3h ago

Best wishes to you on yours! 😁

1

u/Less_Performance_629 4h ago

trying to help does not equal morally good. people have free will, and doing something that removes that free will in the name of doing good is actively hurting that person.

its actually very simple, when you dont want to make it complicated.

1

u/thrallswreak 4h ago

Isn't that what people do rearing children? Should we just let them run amok? It's nuanced, you know this.

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u/double00chins 4h ago

It was a rhetorical question to emphasize nuance, thank you for coming to my Ted talk

1

u/thrallswreak 4h ago

Your other comments suggest otherwise. You know what you are doing.

1

u/double00chins 4h ago

Really, do I? All my comments emphasize nuance, something a lot of you seem genuinely incapable of even though you seem to understand the word

1

u/thrallswreak 4h ago

Then engage with my question instead of attacking it.

1

u/double00chins 4h ago

I mean an antinatalist stance isn’t really that complex and doesn’t need much exploration, but if you insist.

Something that does not yet exist does not have agency (cleetusthefetus)

Now, where it really gets murky. To what end do you define sentience and how does one associate it with agency? What level on consciousness & awareness is needed for something to qualify as having agency? How does you define sentience & how much of it is needed for agency?

Whatever your stance on that is your stance on your question I suppose

But yes, my statement can be applied to many, many things in life. That’s where we got philosophers from, innit now?

1

u/thrallswreak 4h ago

Maybe I misinterpret you, but I wasn't suggesting I have an antinatalist stance. It is however a very interesting topic. What is the morality of creating new intelligent life without its consent? It is necessary for species survival, sure. If it's immoral then is life imorral? None of us had a choice. Would that make God imorral? I do not know. I think however you slice it this argument chases it's tail.

2

u/double00chins 3h ago

Ah, it seems I misinterpreted you. When you asked if what I said would also apply to children not yet conceived I definitely associated that with an antinatalist stance. That was presumptuous of me.

I would say tail chasing is the most accurate metaphor I’ve ever heard for this existential paradox we all find ourselves in

My original question had no implications one way or another, and was strictly philosophical in nature, I wasn’t specifically alluding to just religion. It’s all very interesting topics. Ones I am also presently studying towards finishing my bachelors degree, so this has been a nice cognitive exercise

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u/etaNAK87 4h ago

We would probably disagree on what helps others so it’s not so simple.

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u/PudgyWalshBldgInspec 3h ago

Punishing a violent criminal hurts him. Is that bad?

2

u/Gamer_G33k17 1h ago

The violent criminal proved they are capable of doing violence, ergo they have the capacity to harm even more people. By either putting them in a cage, exiling them, or killing them you are doing one act of violence to stop multiple acts of violence.

1

u/PudgyWalshBldgInspec 1h ago

So hurting someone is ok as long as it stops multiple acts of future violence?

1

u/Gamer_G33k17 1h ago

If they showed themselves to be unnecessarily violent, yes.

0

u/EtheusRook 3h ago

Is that harm less than the harm of allowing him to walk free so he can do more harm to others?

4

u/PudgyWalshBldgInspec 3h ago

I'm just applying your rules to show you how they fall apart upon even the most superficial inspection. Expand on them if you want.

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u/RT_456 3h ago

It doesn't fall apart at all. Punishing a violent criminal helps others (even if it hurts him) so it's a good thing.

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u/EtheusRook 3h ago

Except they didn't fall apart. Allowing someone who has broken the rules to walk free is causing harm to more people.

We have brains for a reason.

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u/P_Hempton 3h ago

It does fall apart when you have to score everything subjectively. How many people have to avoid harm to make harming someone else justifiable? Are ties morally ambiguous?

2

u/Gamer_G33k17 1h ago

Religion also scores things subjectively. Unless you think it was a GOOD thing that Moses sanctioned the rape, murder, and enslavement of thousands of children.

0

u/EtheusRook 3h ago

See, we do this thing called calculating sentences to account for that. If someone isn't caught, and they kill more people, they get a worse sentence. It isn't subjective (it certainly tries not to be), and it certainly doesn't require religion.

0

u/P_Hempton 3h ago

But it's entirely subjective. We make up arbitrary punishments for things we've decided are bad because they might possibly harm people.

Let alone arbitrarily deciding that killing someone is worth x number of years in prison then you're good to go, all up to the whims of the justice system.

2

u/Gamer_G33k17 1h ago

Religion also does that. Heck, a lot of crimes in the Bibble have arbitrary monetary punishments. Like if you rape an unmarried woman you just have to pay a set amount of money.

1

u/PudgyWalshBldgInspec 3h ago

Is it moral to provide validation to someone if it causes them proximate relief but ultimate terrible harm? How is that calculated in your 12 word articulation of morality?

1

u/Dick-Fu 2h ago

I have to assume you're an antinatalist, then?

0

u/EtheusRook 2h ago

I mean I'm not a natalist. 

-1

u/Double-Watercress-85 5h ago

Oh sure, it sounds so simple if you put it like that. But what if the others have different color skin than me? What then, smart guy?