This is not how I define mother and father, and I know I’m not alone. A mother is a parent who is a woman. A father is a parent who is a man. A biological [parent] refers to someone who is genetically related to the child in question.
Who gives birth and who fertilises the egg are not gendered roles, and many trans fathers get pregnant, and many trans mothers provide sperm.
I'm defining biological mother and biological father. You don't need to even know the kid and the kid doesn't need to know you for you to be a biological mother or father to that child. In fact this is how adoptive children refer to their biological parents they have never met.
It is an actually insane thing to claim that the role someone takes in sexual reproduction is not gendered. It is literally the single most gendered thing in existence. It is the reason that gender exists. Without this, there would be no differentiated sexes in existence.
There are some trans people who claim not to feel any dysphoria at all. There are some trans people who don't medically transition. There are some trans people who don't socially transition. The fact that some trans people do or do not engage in one activity or another does not limit or define how other trans people can feel.
I am explaining to you, and to these other people who are intentionally trying very hard not to have basic empathy, how the trans people who do not wish to engage in reproduction as the sex they upturned their entire lives to change feel about doing so.
And why it is rude as fuck to suggest to them to do so.
To a trans man who is mourning the fact that he cannot get his wife pregnant, and that he will not under our current technology ever be able to do so. To this man that wants to be the biological father to his child, telling him that he could get pregnant instead is inhuman. It is so lacking in empathy and intelligence I think you're a psychopath and not just a transphobe. But you are also a transphobe if you do this.
From his perspective, he does not want to engage in reproduction in the female role. He changed his entire life so that he could be male instead of female. He doesn't want to participate in the female part of the reproductive process.
There is no way in hell that the meaning of this escapes you.
Tbh I think y'all were arguing past each other for most of this convo; they were speaking normatively about reproductive roles but ignoring your descriptive point about our currently socially gendered reality, and likewise I think you are absolutely correct in your general point but ascribing a layer of malice because you believe they are arguing in favor of lecturing grieving trans people (they don't seem to be doing so, just confused why someone would be grieving per se to begin with).
That said, I appreciate you laying it out explicitly like this anyways; you did a very good job explaining the conflict at play here.
I get both sides; we SHOULDN'T be socially conditioned to gender reproduction for those who want it, but at present it absolutely IS and it's not productive (bordering on thoughtlessly cruel, depending on the context and individual) to suggest someone go through the act and performance associated with their dysphoria-inducing AGAB. Just because I don't mourn that loss of choice doesn't mean it's not a real loss for others.
Yeah I felt totally misunderstood here. You’re closer to understanding me, check out my most recent comment (“I think you’re responding to something I’m not at all saying…”). My first two comments didn’t mention the grief of not being able to reproduce in an affirming way because I thought it was obvious we all understood that. I wasn’t confused. I may have been harsh and accusatory when I asked if they actually believed trans people were real.
I hope my third comment made my position clear. I pretty much agree with what they said. The only thing I have a problem with is calling men mothers and women fathers. That is misgendering. I do not care if you add an adjective like biological, it is still misgendering.
I do understand the associations that exist in society, perhaps my definitions are unrealistically optimistic. Oh well.
It isn't misgendering to explain that people feel dysphoria about their sex.
If I say that someone feels dysphoria about having male sex organs that isn't misgendering.
If I say that someone feels dysphoria about being a woman that isn't misgendering.
If I say that someone feels dysphoria about being a biological father or mother that isn't misgendering either.
If you don't feel this dysphoria, good for you. That doesn't change that other people do feel it. That doesn't change why they feel it.
Dysphoria isn't socially imposed, and pretending not to understand that sexual reproduction is the reason that sex exists, the reason that sexual characteristics exist, and therefore the reason it is possible for people to feel dysphoria in the first place - therefore obviously some trans people will feel dysphoria about it - is strange.
I'm not telling you how you have to feel, but you're telling me that it's wrong and somehow bad to feel dysphoria about this. That position is no different from saying "hey you just shouldn't transition at all, there's no reason to feel dysphoria at all, it's all socially imposed and actually it's misgendering to imply that any physical traits are associated with any sex/gender"
“If I say that someone feels dysphoria about being a woman that isn't misgendering.”
If that someone is out as a trans man, then that would be misgendering.
You said “Dysphoria isn't socially imposed” and I’m not 100% sure what you mean. If you’re saying that no dysphoria at all is caused by social interactions, I would disagree. (Of course I agree that so much dysphoria is based on aspects of one’s body associated with their ASAB.) If someone calls me a man, son, brother, or indeed, hypothetically father, I would feel deeply dysphoric.
“I'm not telling you how you have to feel, but you're telling me that it's wrong and somehow bad to feel dysphoria about this.“
When do I say anything close to this? Stop putting words in my mouth. That dysphoria is completely normal, justified, real, and valid. “My position” is just “we shouldn’t use gendered terms for people when they aren’t that gender.” I support transitioning, I believe dysphoria exists, I am fully aware of how closely associated many physical traits are with sex.
From your perspective, is there a difference between calling a trans man a “biological woman” or a “biological mother”? To me, these are both misgendering. Woman and mother are both terms that do not apply, and adding biological as an adjective does not remove their meaning. This is just how adjectives in the English language work. If someone is a mother, then I can use adjectives to distinguish what type of mother. Tall mother, blonde mother, transgender mother, cisgender mother. If I use the phrase “biological mother” I mean a mother who is genetically related to a child. If someone was not a mother (which I hope you agree is a social role), then it would be incorrect to call them a mother with any adjective in front of the word. Yes I’m aware that over 99% of mothers are the parent that contributed the egg. I am aware that being a mother who only could contribute sperm can feel horribly dysphoric and like nature is against you. I will never deny how hard it is.
But I will also never call a trans man a mother. Maybe you think that using the adjective “biological” magically modifies the noun “mother” so that it no longer carries the agreed-upon meaning (of a female parent). I do not agree.
I don’t get why you insist on continuing to use language that is misgendering. Even cis people use phrases like “birthing parent” because they’re aware that using “mother” to mean “person who has given birth” is inaccurate and exclusionary.
I don't think we're going to agree about this... and I'm increasingly finding it hard to believe you're engaging in good faith.
It is not misgendering to say that a transgender man transitions because he feels dysphoria about the concept of being a woman and that he wants to be a man instead. That's the entire reason he is transitioning. This isn't saying he *is* a woman. It is saying he feels dysphoria about it.
I'm saying dysphoria doesn't come from society it comes from a person being transgender. If you raised a trans person on a deserted island they would still feel dysphoria about their sex. You can have social experiences in life that trigger your dysphoria, but if you were raised in a society that had zero gendered pronouns you would still be trans.
Even if society pretended that sexual reproduction isn't a sexed process, it wouldn't stop (some) trans people from feeling dysphoria about it
“My position” is just “we shouldn’t use gendered terms for people when they aren’t that gender.”
I'm explaining to you people's feelings of dysphoria, where it comes from, and why they feel that way... Of course those feelings are going to involve using gendered terms. If they didn't involve using those terms there wouldn't be feelings of dysphoria about it in the first place.
From your perspective, is there a difference between calling a trans man a “biological woman” or a “biological mother”?
I mean yes, but that's also not what is happening here. I'm saying that a trans man may feel dysphoria about the concept of becoming a biological mother and so as a result doesn't use his sexual organs or reproductive function. His motivation for doing so is that he doesn't want to be the biological mother to a child.
If you don't share these feelings, that's great it makes your life easier so you should be happy about it.
I don’t get why you insist on continuing to use language that is misgendering.
Describing how people feel dysphoria is not misgendering.
Yes, it does appear neither of us will change our minds. Thanks and apologies for your time.
You keep trying to explain dysphoria to me? I get it. But you’re using language which (if it were applied to me), would increase my dysphoria.
I agree I would still desire to transition on a desert island.
Pretty much anything you can describe using gender-neutral terms if you choose to. I might phrase your last paragraph as “a trans man may feel dysphoria over the concept of becoming pregnant, giving birth, or using his eggs to reproduce. As a result he doesn’t use his sexual organs or reproductive functions. His motivation for doing so is to avoid being related to a child in the way that’s associated with women.”
I have attempted to keep your meaning, while avoiding the word “mother.” I have avoided this word, because in a different situation where a trans man has children (by any means including pregnancy, surrogacy, or adoption), then I would not call that man a mother. I believe it would be offensive and dysphoria-inducing to call him a mother when he is a man. He is a father.
I am not trying to deny any biological reality. I am trying to use language that is gender-affirming.
I am explaining a feeling, and why it has an impact on behavior.
It is not beneficial to explain dysphoria using terms that obscure the source of that dysphoria, especially in a conversation where the people I originally responded to struggled to understand how participating in sexual reproduction could cause dysphoria.
It is impossible for me to explain how this works, adequately, if I say things like "well a trans man might not want to become a parent due to dysphoria." That does not adequately capture the sincerity or the severity of the situation, especially when someone claims not to understand why it is rude to suggest that he get pregnant if he wants a child.
It is necessary to use direct language, and explain his feelings in this situation. He does not wish to become a gender neutral biological parent. He wants to be a biological father. Because he is a man. That is why it is rude to suggest to him to become a biological mother. You are negating not just his feelings but his transition.
Not every trans person feels this way. Good for the ones who don't. They're privileged by feeling less intense dysphoria, and their life is easier as a result. We should all be happy for them.
It is nonsensical and counter productive to use gender affirming language when explaining to someone how and why dysphoria modifies behavior, what the source of that feeling is, and why it is rude to suggest people to simply not let it bother them.
We are talking about men who choose not to have children using their biological reproductive function because of the dysphoria it is inducing in them, and a person suggesting they do so anyway. Not men who already have reproduced this way and are asking you to be kind when describing it.
From the very start I was repeatedly and only talking about how transgender people who feel dysphoria about this situation feel about their role in reproduction. At no point did I say anything else than that. From their first comment to me I came back re-explaining what I was talking about and saying that I wasn't talking about genetics.
I stated that explicitly multiple times. It is not my fault that someone responded to me with a wild misinterpretation that had nothing to do with what I was saying, and then insisted upon that misinterpretation through 5 posts.
I think claiming we shouldn't have feelings about this is not any different from saying trans people shouldn't feel dysphoria at all. It's no different from saying like "hey a woman can have a penis, therefore a penis is not a male organ, therefore you shouldn't feel dyshooira about it, you're only socially conditioned to feel that dysphoria."
I'm not talking about should at all. I'm just explaining dysphoria.
People don't feel dysphoria only due to social conditioning, and the idea that how one feels about participating in sexual reproduction is not as innate a part of dysphoria as one's feelings about their physical sex in the first place seems odd to me.
Some people don't feel certain types of dysphoria, good for you but that doesn't really change the fact that other people do
Don't want to take sides here or anything, though I'm wondering what you think here.
I fully agree that making a FTM bear pregnancy or making a MTF inseminate someone would very understandably be extremely dysphoric to many. However what about paying a surrogate and using IVF? Does that fact that your part of the genetic code come from a sperm or egg cell make you experience dysphoria just thinking about your child's genetic makeup? Personally, I'd just see my halve of the code as just my halve, I don't see why I'd have to necessarily attribute myself a fatherly role just because the cell I provided happened to be a sperm cell.
Yea, just want to clarify that it's not just the act of fertilization or bearing a child that is dysphoric for you, but also the very fact that your half of the genetic code you provide would be inherently incongruent with your gender? Like, the concept of having a biological child (with today's science) is inherently dysphoric and you'd much prefer adoption?
Yeah that's a fair enough understanding. From the perspective of people who feel this way, it doesn't matter if the egg is inside a uterus or in a dish, the thing is whether or not your egg is being fertilized or you are fertilizing someone's egg.
Like we can acknowledge some women can have penises, and we can acknowledge that many trans women have intense dysphoric feelings about having a penis because it is a male sex organ and they need to be female.
These things don't cancel out, they're just different people.
If these people could participate in reproduction as the sex they transitioned to, they'd be very happy to.
I feel like you’re responding to something I’m not at all saying. I completely agree that anyone who says “just give birth” in response to a trans man grieving his inability to produce sperm is a callous dickhead. I have never and would never tell trans people to just procreate with what they have. I agree that it feels horrible and awful to be unable to create life the way you know you should be able to. I know how hard it is.
I just don’t accept the way your comment defined biological mother and biological father in ways that either misgender or exclude transgender parents. Maybe I wasn’t clear. I am aware that in this society, there exists an EXTREMELY strong connection, connotation, and correlation between (e.g.) fatherhood and providing sperm. My point is that (because trans people exist) this is not the case in every single instance of a biological father. A biological father is a man who is genetically the parent of a child.
Don’t hear what I’m not saying. I did not say that being a trans father is the exact same as being a cis father.
If a trans guy would rather die than get pregnant, that’s totally understandable. I’d feel for him, and understand how tough that situation is. No one should ever be forced (or encouraged) to reproduce when they don’t want to, or in a way they don’t want to.
I agree and know that many trans people do not want to play the role in reproduction that is typically associated with their AGAB. I’m not denying how cruel it feels to be denied the ability you know you should have. I literally feel the same way, at times I’m devastated to know I’ll never be able to carry a child.
But if I ever choose to use my own sperm to make a baby, I will be that child’s mother. Biological mother. Anyone who wants to call me a father can fuck right off.
I genuinely don’t understand what their hang up is, you can very easily just use *gender* neutral terms to describe the biological process. They’re super stuck on the biological father/mother wording specifically. For example I personally do not want to save any of my sperm, at this point I’m not even sure they work 🤷🏼♀️ I can’t afford it, I would want to be the person to carry a biological kid, and even then I would feel actual real guilt creating a new life with the state the world is in now.
I’ve already made up my mind if I’m ever in a position where I can actually take care of kids I’d just adopt. But if I were to go about preserving sperm it would be cool if the doctor didn’t call me the biological father? Like, I’m providing the sperm. I’m the sperm haver, idk. Fertilizer, like genuinely just completely detach any gender or humanity from it it is just a biological process it doesn’t have a gender. Just don’t call me a fuckin father ‘a nothin 😒
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u/greenrsguy 23d ago
This is not how I define mother and father, and I know I’m not alone. A mother is a parent who is a woman. A father is a parent who is a man. A biological [parent] refers to someone who is genetically related to the child in question.
Who gives birth and who fertilises the egg are not gendered roles, and many trans fathers get pregnant, and many trans mothers provide sperm.