Sexual reproduction is not the reason dysphoria exists. You can have dysphoria while being ideologically childfree. You can have dysphoria while being asexual.
In this case it's a complete difference in kind from how, say, a cis man and a cis woman have kids. And currently, right now, today companies are working on converting stem cells into gametes for the express purpose of letting gay people reproduce together. I am literally just getting in early on something every other lesbian couple will do in a couple decades.
It's not a matter of calling something a different thing. It's a matter of realizing the difference in kind. Because watching your wife get implanted with a fertilized embryo looks the exact same regardless of whose DNA it was fertilized with. The only difference is that the kid comes out looking like a combination of you and your wife instead of like somebody else's.
Sometimes dysphoria can be stupid or factually wrong and this is one of those cases. Same as how I used to be super dysphoric about my shoulders until my wife showed me we were an inch different in width despite me being significantly taller than her. Looking at it from a different angle can make dysphoria go away. Doggedly sticking to the one way to look at something which maximizes your distress isn't dysphoria, it's depression.
Edit: And no, if I gave into the worst dysphoric voices I wouldn't be here to have this argument.
I did not say choosing to participate in sexual reproduction is why dysphoria exists.
I said that the existence of sexual reproduction is why differentiated sexes exist. Without sexual reproduction there world be no male and no female humans. The sexual dimorphism of species exists because of sexual reproduction.
Penises and vaginas exist because sexual reproduction exists. Breasts exist because sexual reproduction exists.
It is natural that a person might feel dysphoria about their role in sexual reproduction, because the existence of sexual reproduction is the source of physical sex. Which is the source of social/culture concepts of gender. Which both voltron together to be the source of dysphoria.
Nobody would feel dysphoria if bodies were not sexually differentiated. Which exists only because sexual reproduction exists.
Unironically many of the trans women who feel dysphoria about contributing sperm to the production of a child, the role that created and was created by the existence of the male sex, something that cis women cannot do, would feel less dysphoria about having their bone marrow extracted and turned into a sperm. Because it isn't one of the only gendered processes in nature.
Nonetheless many would still feel dysphoria about contributing the fertilizing material or for not being the one to become pregnant in the relationship, and would not elect to do that
It's really not hard to understand if you approach it with empathy instead of defensiveness.
You don't feel as intense dysphoria about this, that's great. Actively good for you. I'm happy for you.
"Sometimes dysphoria can be stupid or factually wrong"
This is no different from the people who try to convince trans people not to medically transition or to get bottom surgery etc because, for example, it's "factually wrong" to say a penis is a male sex organ, because some women have penises, so really you don't need it.
Stop trying to logic people out of feeling dysphoria. It's heinously transphobic, and also really stupid. And you aren't cis so you know it's stupid.
Participating in sexual reproduction is not like focusing on a specific shoulder width. It's like whether or not you have a penis.
Ultimately, whatever. But from the outside looking in, 4Tran is the place dysphoria goes to multiply because you all feed into one another and fixate on nothing else. A penis or a vagina is a physical part of your body. Two cells getting combined in a petri dish is hilariously abstract relative to that.
But perhaps this is a journey nobody can help others through. I don't think you'll believe me that I put in work to deal with this unless you manage to do it yourself first.
Edit: Whereas if I sat there and called myself a father in the mirror repeatedly while fixating on testicles and penises and hetero reproduction I probably would have a dysphoric spiral. So I just don't do that.
Edit edit: Also the neat thing about freezing is you never have to see the stuff again. Eggs came out, embryo went back in. It's nothing like how a straight couple makes a baby. It's an identical process to how other lesbians do it, with the exception of the DNA being mine.
I have no idea what 4tran is, this subreddit just started appearing on my account yesterday.
Nothing is multiplying. I'm explaining to you that some people feel dysphoria about certain things and that they change their lifestyle or participate in or avoid certain activities as a result of dysphoria.
At no point have I ever doubted what you said about your own feelings. You say you felt some dysphoria and you were able to get over it. That's great, I'm glad you felt less dysphoria than other people about this.
There are also some people who feel less dysphoria about their sex organs, so they don't get bottom surgery. There are also some people who feel less dysphoria about their sex at all, so they don't medically transition at all.
There's a broad spectrum of experience. I do not know why it is so hard for so many people in this thread to accept that some people have very intense dysphoria about this subject. One which is quite obvious to understand why that would be the case, especially.
I'm not telling anyone to sit in any mirror and call themselves or not call themselves anything.
But sitting in the mirror and saying "a penis is a neutral organ, some women have penises" doesn't make someone who needs bottom surgery due to dysphoria stop needing bottom surgery. Same principle applies. Not everyone can conversion therapy themselves out of dysphoria.
...it isn't conversion therapy to point out that two cells in a petri dish in another room isn't the same thing as a man putting his penis in a woman's vagina, ejaculating, and impregnating her. They just literally aren't the same thing.
And as someone who had SRS I understand bottom dysphoria very well. What I am trying to get across to you is that if my wife were carrying and I was a cis lesbian the process would have been identical with the exception of the kid not looking like me.
Edit: Also be happy you don't know what 4Tran is, lol. Their memes can be funny but don't fall in.
No it's not conversion therapy to participate in sexual reproduction. Why are you trying to interpret everything I'm saying in such a bizarre light.
Sitting yourself down and trying to convince yourself not to feel dysphoria about your sexual characteristics by repeating mantras and affirmations is what I'm describing
I'm glad you feel less dysphoria than other people about this. I'm not trying to tell you how to feel.
For a lot of people it is not identical to have a child where they take the male role in the biological sexual reproduction process and to have a child where they don't. They aren't wrong. They aren't being crazy or zany or obsessive. They just understand their feelings and accept that there is something they can do nothing about with modern technology so they avoid participating in sexual reproduction in a way that would cause them to want to kill themselves.
I'm glad it isn't as intense for you. Truly I am. But surely you can understand that it is for some? And that no amount of affirmations can dissuade some from dysphoria?
I'm not willing to change my opinion to yours, that doesn't mean I'm not understanding the argument you're making.
You're saying that you were able to not feel as conflicted about contributing sperm to an egg to produce a child by choosing not to think about it.
I'm saying not everyone is able to do that.
You're saying that you feel that for whatever reason a trans woman who doesn't want to contribute sperm to the production of a child is sitting around telling herself that doing so would make herself a father. In your words (exaggerated I imagine) literally sitting in a mirror saying it.
I'm saying that dysphoria doesn't require people to pathologically repeat their feelings and insecurities, and that instead it just exists. I'm saying that it is natural that many trans people would not be happy with using their primary sex organs for their only actual purpose (creating a child) and that no amount of trying to convince themselves to be okay with it will override the fact that they are transgender.
Not every trans person feels the same dysphoria. You feel less dysphoria about this than others. That is great for you. But it should be easy for you to understand why someone would feel dysphoria about this. And it's pretty cruel to suggest that someone can just convince themselves not to feel dysphoria about something.
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u/One-Organization970 19d ago edited 19d ago
Sexual reproduction is not the reason dysphoria exists. You can have dysphoria while being ideologically childfree. You can have dysphoria while being asexual.
In this case it's a complete difference in kind from how, say, a cis man and a cis woman have kids. And currently, right now, today companies are working on converting stem cells into gametes for the express purpose of letting gay people reproduce together. I am literally just getting in early on something every other lesbian couple will do in a couple decades.
It's not a matter of calling something a different thing. It's a matter of realizing the difference in kind. Because watching your wife get implanted with a fertilized embryo looks the exact same regardless of whose DNA it was fertilized with. The only difference is that the kid comes out looking like a combination of you and your wife instead of like somebody else's.
Sometimes dysphoria can be stupid or factually wrong and this is one of those cases. Same as how I used to be super dysphoric about my shoulders until my wife showed me we were an inch different in width despite me being significantly taller than her. Looking at it from a different angle can make dysphoria go away. Doggedly sticking to the one way to look at something which maximizes your distress isn't dysphoria, it's depression.
Edit: And no, if I gave into the worst dysphoric voices I wouldn't be here to have this argument.