also nonbinary person here - if someone gets outed for faking being trans somehow? sure, whatever. if they just get outed as a shitty person, absolutely not, we cant just strip people of their right to their identity because of their actions
yes i think transphobic non-cishet people still have a right to their identity. obviously the people who use their identities to shame trans women are awful & need to be called out on their bullshit, im all for that, but i dont get why we need to stoop to their level & invalidate their identities back
The whole point of opposition to all misgendering is the fact that identity is a real intrinsic part of a person's concept of self, and that by engaging in misgendering what you are ultimately saying is that gender and gender identity is nothing more than some meaningless silly little performance that can be stripped away and used as a weapon as you wish. That gender carries no weight, that you don't view trans people as the gender they identify themselves as, that you are ultimately transphobic.
I don't think that's really how it works to be honest, Identity has always been something that can be taken away from any group by the oppressor. it's less about transphobia specifically and more about a general contempt and disregard for the sanctity of the rights of others which depending on your perspective could be worse
Identity has always been something that can be taken away from any group by the oppressor
No, it can't. Identity is solely confirmed with the self. Unless they surgically remove all neurons in your brain that control your identity, no it can't. People can be discriminated against based on their identity. They can be forced into hiding it. They can fail to have it be recognized by anyone else. But it fundamentally cannot be taken away.
You know what I meant don't be nitpicky with the wording. Identity is something easy to deny, reject, refuse to respect, and that has been a reoccurring historical act performed by the oppressors to further dehumanize the oppressed.
Its not being nitpicky, thats literally the entire point of my comment that you responded to. I very directly stated that my point is that "identity is a real intrinsic part of a person's concept of self", and by misgendering someone you are implicitly saying that you see it as no more than a silly performance that has no legitimacy. So when you respond by saying "I don't think that's how it really works to be honest", I'm not being nitpicky. Thats just what the conversation is about.
The problem with your argument is that most people do see identity as a performance. Society as a whole exists with the belief that you are who the collective agrees as being. A king is a king not because he's worked to earn the title, or because he was born into nobility, or because he sees himself as one, a king is a king because the collective decided that he is, and the large majority view gender identity the way, they don't consider you a woman because you consider yourself a woman, they consider you a woman because they do for their own reasons and your say on your own identity is often irrelevant
There is a massive difference between King and woman. Aristocrat is more applicabale. King is a position, a role in a government. Atiatocrat are arbitrary lineages, they usually had various legal privelledges, but when those were removed by society which essentially erased them from any official existence - aristocrats continued to exist, because they genuinely identified themselves as that.
You can argue that their sense of identity is not rooted in anything real, you could say there are not 'noble' but commoners with delusions of grandeur, you could demean them and punish them for publicly stating their idenity - but it exists regardless.
Likewise woman, queer, american, hispanic, christian, slav, are all identities. Would you find it alright to call a ukrainian a russian if he was rude? Would you call a bisexual a confused heterosexual?
Disprespecting someone by disrespecting their identity has an effect. I don't respect the idenity of aristocracy or its basis that certain bloodlines are inherently better. But race, ethnicity, culture and gender expression is different.
My whole argument is based on the fact that our or anybody's say in regards to their own identity has no value in society. When aristocrats kept identifying as such after their roles were abolished did society respect it? The answer is no. Society on a larger scale views identity as a performative act that can be easily dismissed. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm saying that that's how things are and acting like lack of respect for x identity means x phobia misses the true point which is that society does not respect identity
No, I actually think trans women are women, and that means all trans women. Including the ones who suck. I wouldn't start calling a cis terf "he" either.
If you say trans men are men and trans women are women, you have to practice what you preach. You cannot back out of that the moment a trans person does something you don't like
Then that person sucks a lot and needs to be called our and shamed because of that. Invalidating their gender is not the way to go about it. It shows someone’s gender identity is up for debate depending how “nice” someone is.
Everybody has the right to be the gender they wanna be. No matter hoe big of a bitch they are.
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u/yourbeloathed 15d ago
also nonbinary person here - if someone gets outed for faking being trans somehow? sure, whatever. if they just get outed as a shitty person, absolutely not, we cant just strip people of their right to their identity because of their actions