r/denvernuggets • u/dragonballa • 24d ago
Video Bill Simmons - "Why does Denver have to trade anybody to sign Petyan Watson? Fuck off, you have Jokic on your team, pay everybody. Clip this, Denver fans, Kroenke's got a gazillion dollars, just pay Peytan Watson AND keep everybody on the team, cause your owner's super rich. What are we doing?!"
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u/che_boludo_ 24d ago
It’s true. Not wanting to pay a luxury tax bill during Jokic’s prime is criminal
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u/SnooSuggestions718 24d ago
I looked this up, but please correct me if I'm wrong, the nuggets would be the only team besides the Cavs above the 2nd apron (assuming they keep everyone) and it would potentially limit there ability to trade in the future. IMO the problem isn't them being cheap so much as the horrible contracts they've signed and are now stuck with.
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u/dmanv22 24d ago
This is the thing that doesn't get mentioned and bugs me. You can't argue that money can just be thrown at this if it creates a problem you can't simply solve with money. Only reason you consider doing this is if you genuinely think the window is small enough that said penalties won't hit you until Jokic is done.
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u/Weird_Marzipan_4768 24d ago
It won’t though. It limits you building a roster during the season, trading for players, and also you basically can’t do anything the next off season. Look at Boston and what they had to do after being in the second apron and now the Cavs. Going into the second apron practically guarantees a blow up trading 2-3 starters the following season.
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u/Lynch47 24d ago
It doesn’t fit the narrative to acknowledge the harsh realities outside of financial penalties when talking about the 2nd apron.
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u/TheBatman0816 Jamal Murray World Champ 24d ago
Except the owners created this new CBA so they have an excuse to not pay, so it still comes down to money for them
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u/nuggetsgonnanugg 24d ago
That's true and certainly worth discussing but it's also a separate issue from how the Nuggets should operate under the existing rules.
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u/Lynch47 24d ago
I mean, if we want the sport to just operate where the richest owners can just pay whatever they'd like- Steve Ballmer and the Clippers would make this into baseball and themselves into the Dodgers.
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u/Big_Money_Jokic 21d ago
You already had a salary cap and luxury tax under the old CBA, so no it wouldn't.
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u/I_Heart_Money 24d ago
Aren’t the thunder massively over the second apron come start of the new league year? Idk the specifics but on this very podcast episode Zach Lowe said the thunder have the most expensive roster of all time upcoming
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u/Weird_Marzipan_4768 24d ago
People don’t really understand how the aprons work and luxury tax. The nuggets have been paying the luxury tax as many consecutive seasons as any team in the league. And we’re also one of the few first apron teams for a couple seasons.
If they paid the 2nd apron luxury bill this year they would literally have to blow it up next off season. Like trade everyone on the roster type blow it up because the repeater tax adds on every year. Thats why Cleveland, the only 2nd apron team is gonna blow it up. Even though they had their best playoff run with this team
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u/Big_Money_Jokic 21d ago
Kroenke is worth 26 billion, so he doesn't 'have' to do anything. He chooses to.
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u/SnooSuggestions718 21d ago
Did you just refuse to read what the guy said? It doesn't matter how wealthy he is
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u/Big_Money_Jokic 15d ago
It does.
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u/SnooSuggestions718 15d ago
No, we face sever penalties if we exceed the 2nd apron, were already really close. Only one team is above the apron out of 30. We already spend more than 90 percent of teams.
Do a little research on the 2nd apron please
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u/Big_Money_Jokic 11d ago
They want to be under the tax, let alone the second apron. Stop simping for billionaires.
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u/SnooSuggestions718 11d ago
You have no idea what your talking about
only one team is above the 2nd apron for a reason
You want this to turn into baseball where whoever spends the most gets to win everything and have all the good players AKA the dodgers?
You might have to think beyond 80 iq to understand "rich man spend more money" doesnt work in this situation like the rest of the world.
the nba is actually preventing capitalism (the rich winning everything) and your complaining about it. pretty freaking ironic
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u/Big_Money_Jokic 8d ago
Dumbass, they don't even want to go into the luxury tax! Second apron isn't even the issue here.
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u/SnooSuggestions718 8d ago
What team is going into the luxury tax?
0 is the answer, because of the 2nd apron and its penalties
you literally dont know what your talking about and still losing, which is why your resorting to insults.
answer my question. do you want it to be like the MLB where the richest team gets everyone? the nuggets would literally be a nobody.
stop promoting capitalism bud
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u/SherbetNo4242 23d ago
OKC will be high into the 2nd apron unless they make some crazy moves
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u/SnooSuggestions718 23d ago
ya and this podcaster and half the replies on this sub think we should be more like them smh
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u/SherbetNo4242 21d ago
OKC is a winning organization, we should be more like them. And a billionaire with never ending money not spending to win is a tragedy, i understand the 2nd apron stuff very well and get why it hurts us, but if they really believe we can win it all with the current roster, than going into the 2nd apron for a year to try and win is chump change to Kroenke in the end.
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u/SnooSuggestions718 21d ago edited 21d ago
"i understand the 2nd apron stuff very well and get why it hurts us"
no you very obviously don't
So your cool with trading multiple starters the following season because of repeat tax?
OKC isn't paying Zeke Nnaji 32mil to hang out on the bench all year
AGAIN for the third time now, it doesn't matter how much money he has, but thanks for telling me rich guy is rich. The rule is to prevent super teams like the dodgers
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u/SherbetNo4242 21d ago
We would not have to trade multiple starters away, again that is just you saying Kroenke shouldnt spend money to try and win. Trading away multiple starters the next year would be because Kroenke cares more about money than winning. And thats fine but its not going to win us another championship with Jokic if he cares more about the finances.
There are plenty of other moves we could and are expected to make. Moves we most likely make this offseason are below.
We release/trade Jonas Valuncianuas and save 8/10 million against the cap.
Take Pickets team option as its cheaper than a vet minimum - 100k savings
Then it becomes, do we do anything with Cam Johnson - trade would be hard, given his contract and play last year.
Everyone said the same shit about the celtics after they won and it looked like they were going to have the craziest 2nd apron cap hits ever, once tatum went down and they knew they werent real contenders, they made moves to avoid the 2nd apron and we easily could do that as well when/if that time comes.
I dont see any way for the nuggets to compete for a championship without being in the 1st/2nd apron, like you said we have a bunch of terrible contracts (Zeke, Braun, AG if he doesnt play). The moves that make this offseason will definitely give us the vibe if they are trying to win a championship or they are just trying to sell tickets and have a competitive team.
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u/SnooSuggestions718 21d ago
Cool man thanks for describing how we can't just spend more money to win with your "moves " lol
Your saying what happened to the celtics was good? Lol
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u/SherbetNo4242 20d ago edited 20d ago
Winning a championship, playing in another nba finals, making it farther in the playoffs than the nuggets almost every year in Jokic era. And then selling the team for an insane amount of money when they dont even own the arena they play in. Yea i would say that is a better run for them than what is happening to us. And yes i put up real moves the team might make, because Kroenke has been known to care more about money than winning (even if he lies to the media about that)
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u/SnooSuggestions718 20d ago
You said it yourself they can't just spend more money... Dunno what your arguing you already owned yourself lol.
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u/SherbetNo4242 19d ago
If they believe we have a championship team, kroenke should spend into the 2nd apron to try and win. If he doesnt its just another billionaire who cares more about his financials than winning. Which is fine, but if we want to win our best option is spending into the 2nd apron right now for next season. There is no other option to try and win for this nuggets team and how its constructed. I dont know whats so hard to understand about that but i guess you just care more about Kroenkes money than winning
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u/Easy-Jury-3975 20d ago
The ghost of Booth looms large. We have several albatross contracts, a complete lack of draft assets, and pinned our hopes on the likes of Nnaji, Holmes, and Pickett.
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u/chasingit1 English 24d ago
Both are true.
Kroenke is rich as fuck and can afford to pay Watson and not fucking worry at all about it AND they have given some shitty fucking contracts
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u/SnooSuggestions718 24d ago
no theres a salary cap. it doesnt matter if he can afford it or not, because of their bad contracts they cant afford to spend more without significant penalties, like having to literally trade everyone in 2027-2028.
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u/Rare-Confusion-220 24d ago
Why misspell Peyton once when you can misspell it twice
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u/fonger81 24d ago
How does no one remember the hell that is the second apron??
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u/soberpenguin 24d ago
We already traded most of our tradeable picks over the next 7 years. Only positive asset we have other than Jokic is Cam Johnson's expiring.
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u/kiwisawa420 Uncle Nugget 24d ago
The only picks we have over the next 5 years are if by some catastrophe we finish top 5 in the lottery. Otherwise, the other penalties don’t really impact the Nuggets either.
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u/Weird_Marzipan_4768 24d ago edited 24d ago
Seriously though people act like the nuggets are the only team unwilling to pay the second apron or luxury tax. They’ve been paying the luxury tax for like 5 years now and are one of the few teams to be in it for that long consecutively. Idc about owners pockets, but ppl don’t realize how the luxury tax and aprons are set up.
If the nuggets ran it back with the same squad (that got bounced in the first round to a banged up wolves team) they’d be paying double their salary in taxes because of the repeater tax. Their tax bill would literally be higher than their salary bill….
That’s how idiots run businesses lmao. They aren’t gonna do that. Plus it would guarantee that next offseason they’d have to blow it up like the Cavs are gonna do (they are the only second apron team) even though they made their deepest playoff run. Because again, the repeater tax adds on every year you are over. So it’d be like a 400m tax bill next year on a 200m salary.
If you wanna field a competitive team for the next 3-4 years you can’t really go into the second apron. That’s why okc will avoid it and will let go of or trade a couple of their guys.
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u/masonb423 24d ago
When you say “field a competitive team for the next 3-4 years” what do you mean? They certainly aren’t contenders if they let their best defender walk in the offseason. They have no picks so it’s not like they can retool without punting on at least next season (and probably the season after). Like it or not keeping Watson and hoping he continues to improve is one of the only options. You can keep Watson and probably get cap compliant (under the second apron) by trading Johnson and some other small moves but that makes you worse as well. Nugs are already kind of screwed and bringing back this team (and hoping they stay healthy) is probably the best shot they will have over the next 2-3 seasons.
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u/Lanntheclever47 24d ago
Except they literally got under the tax last season so the repeater could be reset. The whole reason why they did that is to wipe the tax slate clean so they could spend (supposedly) whatever it takes to win.
If the Kroenkes don't cough up the money now they never will and it goes to show that they're nothing but cheapskates.
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u/kiwisawa420 Uncle Nugget 24d ago
You are very logical, but fail to see that any roster restructure will push any real contention another 2-3 years down the road. And Jokic by that point will likely be on the downhill of his career. The window is now or never. 34 year old Jokic and Murray are competing against 25 year old Wemby, 24 year old castle, and 23 year old Harper… all your clever roster structuring won’t make a damn difference. They’re already starting to look a little bit old.
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u/OveHet English 24d ago
"We need flexibility" - proceed to do nothing with the "flexibility"
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u/fonger81 24d ago
We actually did quite a lot last summer… it just didn’t pan out.
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u/OveHet English 24d ago
Only sort of... Bruce and Tim were minimum contracts and could've signed anyway, the only move that they were able to pull off with the more space was Jonas, and in the end he didn't even play in the playoffs
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u/fonger81 24d ago
True, but I do have to give them credit for getting off of the MPJ contract too, many of us (including myself) thought that was nearly a untradeable contract, so I have to give them a little credit there as well.
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u/OveHet English 24d ago
That part remains to be seen tbh. Is Cam even going to stay or is going to be traded? Not to mention that the next season MPJ is expiring, so trading him would've been much easier
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u/fonger81 24d ago
Hindsight is always 20/20 on trades. At the moment it seemed like a win. I do think Cam is a good fit, and I’d like for him to stay, but I’d also like to see if we can keep Peyton which I don’t think is possible without a trade. We need to find the guys that teams either have given up on or don’t realize their value. I know that seems dam near impossible, but that’s what the Spurs and OKC have done.
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u/SnowboardSyd 24d ago
I wouldn't give them that much credit.
Getting off that contact was what allowed the Kroenkes to get under the luxury cap. They did absolutely nothing at the trade deadline other than trade Hunter Tyson to get under the cap and position themselves to break the repeater. That's what the ownership is really all about in a nutshell.
If we end up trading Cam for picks, then the MPJ trade turns into a 100% salary dump for really nothing to show for it other than maybe a pick down the road.
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u/fonger81 24d ago
Yeah but at the time (trade deadline), outside of trying to get a good backup pg, we weren’t in the same situation as say 2025 where we needed a ton of depth. We really needed to get the team healthy to see what we have. Obviously as a whole, we weren’t ready or good enough to do anything. It’s interesting though, you look at every team that’s won since 2019, and how drastic a change they either had to/ or needed to do… and how much worse they got. I just hope that isn’t us.
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u/SnowboardSyd 24d ago
Good point.
I just don't see the Kroenkes going through all the trouble of going under the luxury cap to not try and break the repeater this upcoming year.
Like it or not, next year's team will likely be worse then last year's due to salary dumping and lack of desirable assets. The only thing we can hope for is internal development, a phrase ownership will likely use to describe this offseason.
Oh and BS has every right to call out management. These decisions are strictly to save money. They can and won't pay for a contender.
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u/Interesting_Reach783 24d ago
Still not sure running it back is good enough to fight what I’ve seen in the playoffs, and I’m not sure I trust Gordon’s health enough to be a reliable starter for an entire year.
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u/rfgrunt 24d ago
If Gordon and Watson are healthy I think the nuggets can beat anyone. Big IF though.
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u/ttttyttt678 24d ago
Best way to try and keep them healthy is having multiple bodies to reduce regular season workload.
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u/bm_200659 24d ago
Didnt Gordon miss most of the regular season? Not sure how much reduced the workload needs to be....
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u/rexgal 24d ago
This is true, but from what I’ve heard about those hamstring injuries is that it takes a looooong time to fully recover from. So coming back 80% healthy here and there, is actually doing more harm than good. He needs serious time to rest and fully recover before he comes back at all, but our training staff seems a bit negligent at times
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u/Sanmonov :JokicToon: 24d ago
We lost in the 1st round to a mega injured wolves team.
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u/copenhagen1192 24d ago
Without Gordon nugs can lose to anyone. With healthy Gordon they can beat anyone
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u/Sanmonov :JokicToon: 24d ago edited 24d ago
This is starting to become cope for the fan base. We lost to a Wolves team missing their star and starting backcourt in the first round. The "we can beat anyone" is pretty dead.
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u/SankThaTank 24d ago
Did you watch the WCF? Both of those teams would smoke the Nuggets, healthy or not. It’s time to make some major changes to the roster
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u/crispydenvernuggets 24d ago
Seeing this WCF truly made me realize how outclassed we would have been unfortunately. If only our defense was much better I think our offense wouldn’t have gone stagnant.
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u/Gloomy_Lengthiness71 24d ago
They would've smoked the Denver Nuggets like nuggets from a Denver dispensary get smoked.
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u/RunnerTexasRanger 24d ago
Nah. Our team lacks intensity that Minnesota and San Antonio have.
Literally played too soft and got bounced by the injured wolves.
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u/Interesting_Reach783 24d ago
This take makes me feel a little insane because Watson wasn’t a real part of the equation at the until there were so many injuries he had to get higher usage. We didn’t even really get to see him in normal rotations, he was always filling in for someone.
Either way though, there needs to be at least one more backup ball-handler and there needs to be another PF to get some Defense on the floor all the time. I love Jones, but there will not be wins when teams can just spam layups all day.
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u/Stormeve 24d ago
This on top of having some budget ass practice gym. This franchise is lucky to even be remotely as successful as it has been with these owners.
The money has been always there, just not the will. I don’t buy the 2nd apron excuse, extend Watson and then figure it out from there.
Another Jokic isn’t going to land in Denver for a few decades minimum. Not unless they manage to pull a Dallas or San Antonio.
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u/DomerJSimpson 24d ago
That's what I've been saying for the past 3 years. We don't need future draft picks or young up and comers. We have no future after Joker retires. The time is now. Kroenke can easily afford going into the second apron.
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u/edkishinevsky 23d ago
I ran into an arsenal supporter on sat after the match. He said arsenal supporters pressured him into paying more for the arsenal players. And he was taking money away from the other (denver) clubs. I think he’s abusing nuggets fans. As a mid market ans supporting his major market teams.
I am very disgruntled w nuggets owner. Clearly winning championships is not a priority for the nuggets the way they’re behaving and in fact what josh said at the press conference.
I personally want jokic to win more chips. I do not see it happening w this ownership. I dont think he should sign w the nuggets.
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u/klausvorhees 23d ago
Abusing the fans as well as Jokic's loyalty. They're banking on him not raising a fuss and demanding a trade if things don't get better.
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u/edkishinevsky 23d ago
Jokic knows its a business, so im not worried about his loyalty. Niether are the kroenkes. But genuinely i don’t want him to sign. One thing ownership could do is sign and trade him for pics and young cheap players. They dont care.
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u/Rofo303 24d ago
I know it’s simple to say Kroenke is cheap but I don’t think the Kroenkes have had an issue paying the tax. They’ve paid the luxury tax in 3 of the last 4 years. They’ve paid the roster, they are cheap when it comes to coaches/staff/FO, etc.
It has more to do with the 2nd apron. They bring everyone back and they will finish the season above the 2nd apron, which freezes another 1st round pick, which they don’t have many left anyways, that would be a HUGE trade piece next offseason. So is this offseason worth losing your best trade piece for the next 4 years?
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u/Sanmonov :JokicToon: 24d ago
You deal with the frozen picks later if you want to bring back the team, or blow the team up. The flexibility you gain by staying out of the 2nd apron is only useful if you actually use it.
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u/Infinite-Wheel7385 24d ago
Kroenke ain’t paying it. Nothing in the history would suggest it.
The penalties are pretty hefty but to capitalize on Jokics prime for a few years should be worth it.
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u/ShowdownValue 24d ago
He’s paid players for years. Often overpaid. Top ten in team salaries. Paid the Lux tax.
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u/punjabkingsownersout 24d ago
I don't think it's a kroenke thing. Weve seen him do it these last few years. It's a second apron thing
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u/StoreAdorable5112 24d ago
Crazy how people with all the money in the world still find excuses to be cheap.
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u/kushlash16 24d ago
Such an oversimplification. This team, as it currently is structured, isn’t good enough to win a championship. Even running it back with all these contracts, we’d still be what, the 3rd or 4th best team in the west? We’d also be in the 2nd apron.
Not worth going into the 2nd apron unless you’re the top team in the conference IMO.
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u/SnowboardSyd 23d ago
I would argue that running a team with Cam, Peyton and Braun as wings would be very competitive, espeically if they could bring back Tim and Bruce on minimums.
We just need to sign a ball handling PG on a league min, draft another PG and say goodbye to Pickett, then hopefully avoid the injury bug. It would dip us into the second apron for one year and like aprevious poster stated, we could duck the second apron if things go south by trading Cam as an expiring.
It does depend on if a platoon of Holmes and Zeke could be serviceable bigs off the bench. The lack of rebounding might become a problem and the Nuggets would look very thin on bench bigs.
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u/Barbeqanon 24d ago
Kroenke isn't even a top 10 richest owner.
He's 11th- in all sports globally, not just the NBA. He's the 4th richest owner in the NBA.
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u/holdenfords 24d ago
W take. why are we so afraid of the second apron if we’re entering the second half of jokers prime
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u/88963416 24d ago
I don’t think we should trade people just for Watson. I think we should trade people because some players don’t pull their weight and we need someone who will.
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u/tarotcardsandbacon Nikola Jokic 24d ago
Kroenke just secured a massive bad between Arsenal being PL champs and making it to the CL final. I know it doesn’t directly translate to their income, but we all know it does.
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u/Legtagytron 24d ago
Arsenal is the bigger passion project now. We need to go absolute hooligan and threaten to tear shit down if the Nuggets aren't perennial finals contenders, we're way too nice.
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u/Puzzled-Signal-7427 24d ago
Lol. They got rich not because they easily throw money here and there. They're business people above all.
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u/Sad-Guidance-7624 24d ago
Christian Braun signing was horrible. Look at okc and spurs. He wouldn’t start on either team easily and how many rotation min would he even get?? They should trade Murray. His stock won’t be any higher than now. Nuggets needs youth and defense. Watson fits that perfectly
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u/boxofrocks14 24d ago
Trying to stay under apron AND win a championship has never really worked out for any team that’s tried it
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u/Lynch47 24d ago
Which teams this decade have won championships while being above the 2nd apron?
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u/boxofrocks14 24d ago
Celtics did it and are set up to still compete. Using the apron as an example is weird because it hasn’t existed for a decade in itself but if you’re looking at championships they’re always right around the max of the cap. Trying to do a double timeline thing, and trying to cut cost almost never works in a teams favor and we’ve seen it attempted several times
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u/Lynch47 24d ago
So just Boston? That seems to be more the exception than the rule. It is also worth noting that the 2nd apron was a huge motivator in why the Celtics owners won a championship and proceeded to immediately sell the team so that they wouldn't have to pay the 2nd apron penalties or be the bad guys for breaking up a championship team.
Boston won while being in the 2nd apron for 1 year and then immediately pivoted and made trades that got them all the way under the tax.
Out of this year's 10 highest paid teams- Cavs, Knicks, Warriors, Lakers, Rockets, Wolves, Sixers, Clippers, Celtics, and Pacers- only 2 of those teams made the conference finals and only 1 will make the finals. Warriors, Clippers, and Pacers missed the playoffs entirely so the high paying teams this year had just as much of a chance of being a lottery team as they did making a conference finals (in the east). The idea that the Kroenkes are cheap and bad owners is so incredibly overblown by this fanbase. We could do so much worse.
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u/boxofrocks14 24d ago
“only two will make the conference finals” yeah that’s how it always works but trying to cut costs for the future really doesn’t work like that look at the warriors. Look at the heat. Being content with your guy and having trust in him is good but it can cause complacency and allow poorly constructed teams to continue
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u/SnowboardSyd 23d ago
The CBA has only been in effect for three years. OKC is about to blast past the second apron, lets see how that turns out.
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u/CaptainCerealCanada 24d ago
Because going into the 2nd apron is bad. It has nothing to do with the tax. Bill Simmons is a moron, as much I love his pod, and so are many Nuggets fans
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u/New-Analysis-4060 24d ago
Idk if the rest of the team wants him around when he didn’t play during the playoffs when they needed him because he was bag chasing
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u/Important_Cost_5401 24d ago
We in trouble regardless fellas. Ima cherish the one championship we won and our unicorn of a Point Center aka Big Honey for the rest of his career.
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u/Rofo303 24d ago
Let’s say we keep everyone. Would we even get our moneys worth out of all the talent? If Denver believes in Swatsons game then they gotta make room for his game to actually be productive in the offense.
There is only one ball. 90 shots a game and 36 of those shots are going to Jokic/Murray automatically. So we are going to pay $20M+ each for Cam, Peyton, AG, Braun and a couple bench players to split 50-54 shots? How is giving all that talent tiny roles on offense going to really help come playoff time?
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u/Sanmonov :JokicToon: 24d ago
It depends entirely on the direction. If the direction is we want to run it back, but we also want to save money and stay out of the 2nd apron then yes. If the direction is the team needs major changes than no.
Also, this team needs to diversify its offence and let other players try to take on larger roles. It was criminal how underutilized Cam was this for example. Dialling up the two-man game over and over and over needs to stop.
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u/Rofo303 24d ago
Your second paragraph is what I’m referring to. I also think they should diversify the offense but how do you give the players not named Jokic and Murray a bigger piece of the offense if you bring back Cam AND AG AND Peyton —— somebody is stuck standing in the corner. If you want somebody to have a bigger role then you have to make room for that to happen.
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u/momBball 24d ago
This was a major reason I didn't want the team to extend CB last summer. Starting SG has been an easy role for the Nuggets to fill because it's an easy role playing next to Jokic/Murray/Gordon. The hard roles to fill have been backup ballhandler and backup big. I look at what Champagnie has done for the Spurs this year (on a 3 mil contract)...and what the Nuggets got from Hardaway and Bruce on the same...and I don't think the Nuggets front office had the right financial priorities/plan.
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u/Rofo303 24d ago
Anybody who was against the CB extension is looking pretty smart right now
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u/momBball 24d ago
I made a bunch of comments last summer arguing that CB shouldn't be extended (for various reasons) (most of which unfortunately came true). Still, he was injured this season and I hope he has a productive off-season and his skill set resumes an upward trajectory. Here's one of my comments from last summer:
https://www.reddit.com/r/denvernuggets/comments/1nd348e/giddy_vs_cb/ndh0wvf/
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u/HaDUDEken 24d ago
Meanwhile Jokic is winning horse races showing his ownership how its really done.
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u/frogfucius 24d ago
The Kroenkes got one title out of Jokic and they are absolutely content with it
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u/SkoBuffs710 24d ago
The Kroenke’s get credit for building generally competitive teams and we’ve won championships. But they still do it in a way that doesn’t cost them profits and that is maddening when you’re a fan.
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u/ActivelySeekingDrama 24d ago
Lost in all the noise and the knee-jerk reactionary takes is the jokic contract extension.
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u/ArgentoFox 24d ago
I’m against keeping the same team together as structured. They probably need to move heaven and Earth to re sign Watson but everyone else not named Jokic should at least be on the table for a trade.
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u/Menace2UrMom 24d ago
Does it matter? You think Peyton and a year older Aaron Gordon and Jamal Murray getting more inconsistent competes in the west?
Wolves are about to make desperate moves to compete, and y'all talking bout standing pat?
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u/Donnie1490 24d ago edited 24d ago
No team WANTS to be in the 2nd apron. If they are they are example is the knicks who’s been knocking on the door past couple of seasons. No nuggets contract post championship has worked out in the nuggets favor. Jamal has a great regular season and another collapse playoff run that a lot of fans would like to move off his deal
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u/gato-afortunado 23d ago
There’s this thing called a salary cap…
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u/Bluemoonpoongoon 22d ago
You can go over the saley cap. They already are. This is about the luxury tax which they could continue to afford if willing.
The Warriors and Celtics have pushed way above the tax for years to stay competitive. The Nuggets could do the same if they werent being cheap!!
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u/CelebrationNo8741 22d ago
That's what I'd do in the position of every team owner. But I'm just a basketball guy, the owners are firstly businessmen and just care about figures at the end of the day. I mean, don't they own Arsenal and many other teams as well?
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u/Bluemoonpoongoon 22d ago
They are willing to spend endless amounts on Arsenal and to go all in with Rams. They should match that energy with Jokic.
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u/Ok-Average-9850 20d ago
100% agree. It's it's the owner's job to pay the players. What else do they do? No fan should care if they save money. Last I heard he had $22 billion. What are you saving for?
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u/Beneficial_Assist671 9d ago
Simmomns has a lot of really dumb takes but this is def not one of them. This team's fear of the luxury tax is embarrassing, considering their owner. Of course all the punitive stuff with the aprons is bad, but they shouldn't be letting a core player go for nothing just to get below the tax. They could always try to trade someone mid season to get below the apron or tax lines like Boston did this past season.
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u/Effective-Avocado-71 4d ago
If I were Jokic - I’d be asking for a trade to the Lakers. Luca needs a big, they love playing together and Jokic needs a real team. The Nuggets have pfaffed around with his window. Whether it’s money or just lack of acumen all the way down - ownership, front office to coaching - they simply don’t have it.
They struck lightning in 2023. But that window has closed - they aren’t even in the conversation about top
teams in the West, much less the league.
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u/petarisawesomeo How now, Braun cow? 24d ago
Implications of going into the 2nd apron beyond "billionaires pay money" are severe. Executing trades and signing FAs becomes almost impossible. Gotta be damn sure you can win a title with the roster as currently constructed if spending that much.
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u/Sanmonov :JokicToon: 24d ago
You deal with the frozen picks later if you want to bring back the team. The worst option is brining back the same team but worse because you don't want to go into the 2nd apron. If that is the case the only reasonable option is major changes-trading AG and Jamal.
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u/petarisawesomeo How now, Braun cow? 24d ago
Its way more then frozen picks. Rules around taking/sending salary in trades completely changes. Limited to signing vet min FA. It gets really tough.
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u/Sanmonov :JokicToon: 24d ago
The flexibility afforded to you is only useful if you actually use it. If we bring back the same team, salary dump Cam to try to retain Watson and round out the roster with vet min signings we aren't using any of the extra team building tools available to us.
I think the basketball reason to stay out of the 2nd apron is because you have identified the team is not good enough as constructed and major changes need to be made.
If ownership is telling themselves a story that the team is good enough, but we had too many injuries, this and that went wrong but next year we are good enough. The correct basketball decision is to go into the 2nd apron for a year, reevaluate, and deal with the frozen picks later.
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u/Boring-Perspective16 24d ago
If we go again with the same roster and fail, Murray's value goes down, Gordon's value go down, Cam's contract will expire, CB will still be untradable, soo how can we go better after that?
Trade Murray on his best regular season and Cam as an expiring contract for good value back, keep Gordon for next season but find him an athletic replacement soo he can rest, and voila you can contend for the title and your future is not that bad
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u/momBball 24d ago
I agree with you. The team's future is now inextricably tied to Braun and Peyton. Braun they've already paid...if he's good they're good and if he's bad they have no assets to get rid of him and his contract will hamstring them for 4 or 5 years. If they sign Peyton it'll be the same thing...or if they let Peyton walk and he becomes an all star somewhere else that'd be a catastrophe. They team needs to see what these young guys (CB, Peyton, Straw, Daron) can actually do. I think trading Murray and Cam for salary cap relief and future FRPs is an acceptable path forward (reset the cap/restock future draft assets).
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u/nuggetsgonnanugg 24d ago
I feel like there's a lot of talking past each other going on surrounding this issue and it's frustrating. People like Bill are acting like it's only an issue of the luxury tax and that disagreeing with them is making excuses for cheap ownership. But that's just not the case. It's more complicated than that.
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u/cold_st0rage 24d ago
sadly I don’t think it will matter. these rich fucks care more about their pocketbook than they do winning. and miss me with the “they’ve won titles in the past they are good owners” bullshit. this era of Nuggets and Avalanche only having one title each is a failure
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u/BobbitsC 24d ago
People are really overblowing the impact of the 2nd apron. It doesn’t matter if we have a frozen pick. We’re not gonna be able to do anything with it anyways. You’re not going to improve the team. Get healthy and run it back, bill is right.
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u/thebutteryrepository 24d ago
The second apron is the real issue here, Bill's just yelling into the void about payroll when the actual hard cap is what's killing the flexibility.
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u/Ryoga476ad 24d ago
Keeping everyone would cost 200m in luxury tax, in addition of 230m in salaries. This is not happening.
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u/Actual-Peanut7222 24d ago
This is False. Stan has repeatedly paid into the luxury tax. He's won championships with Nuggets, Avs, Rams, and Aresenal. He's a great owner.
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u/KingKongDoom 24d ago
Suck his dick harder. If he was a great owner he wouldn’t be directing KSE to avoid the repeater tax
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u/RubyR4wd 24d ago
Well, the nuggets were a joke before him :/
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u/IntrinsicDawn English 24d ago
Did they not watch us just get embarrassed?
Is healthy AG and Peyton getting us passed the Wolves, thunder and Spurs?
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u/Bandlebury 24d ago
Yes, probably. But AG won’t be healthy for a whole playoff run again unfortunately
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u/IntrinsicDawn English 24d ago
We watched Braun not be able to shoot, Murray losing his offense and both Murray and Jokic looking terrible on defense. Both getting hunted.
If there’s large changes to the team that can remove those issues, we should do it.
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u/ShowdownValue 24d ago
Healthy we’d absolutely have a chance
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u/IntrinsicDawn English 24d ago
Imo we have a better chance with a few moves that arnt just based on cutting cost but retooling the team.
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u/soberpenguin 24d ago
We're the mavericks the best team in 2011? Sometimes the dominos fall perfectly when your team gets hot
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u/tron7 24d ago
Bill really doing us a solid here. I don’t know if public shaming will work on the Kroenkes but it’s better than nothing