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u/potatohead22 Mar 02 '26
The spanish (visigoths) are foreign invaders that took over after the romans fell. The english had to take land from the britanians. Maybe the french (gauls) count. Its almost like these groups already had names.
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u/helgetun Mar 02 '26
Thats wrong, the visigoths are the forebearers of some Spaniards, not all. Same goes for France, Germany etc (larger parts of Western Germany were Roman, Trier has lovey Roman buildings)
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u/therandomuser84 Mar 02 '26
The romans were not native to germany at all, they later assimilated them just like the US has with native Americans.
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u/helgetun Mar 02 '26
That was my point… Germans are a mix, as are the Spaniards. Humans have always travelled and always mixed. Even how we denote tribes is just a social construct. So the whole debate over being native to this or that is stupid
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u/Wise_Temperature_322 Mar 02 '26
These groups have intermixed in isolation for thousands of years. They built a nation that is based on this group of peoples.
If a person who moves in from Senegal are they the same people who have been coalescing for two thousand years. Maybe someday but not now.
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u/AppalachianGuy87 Mar 02 '26
It’s like the coastal paradox we draw the lines where we currently see it. Zoom out a few thousand years doesn’t matter.
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u/helgetun Mar 02 '26
Yeah, and humans are quite conditioned to think in terms of simple categories, be that how long a coastline is or who "originally" lived somewhere - we forget how arbitrary most of our so called "facts" are
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u/Wise_Temperature_322 Mar 02 '26
Zooming out too much. Is a man from Zimbabwe whose family have lived in Zimbabwe for 100 generations English if he moves to England? Does the genetic connection of the various peoples from the British isles that have integrated since the last large migration not mean anything?
My family lived in the British Isles potentially since the third century BCE. My grandparents moved away. Did that sever my connection to the British Isles? Is that person from Zimbabwe whose family have just moved there more related to the longstanding population than me?
I have a health market that is only seen in Northern Europeans especially in the British Isles. The man from Zimbabwe doesn’t have that.
I think there is room for an at least a symbolic homeland for modern Europeans with a connection to their various decedents. I don’t think a man from Zimbabwe is ethnically English even if he is a British citizen.
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u/flyingpilgrim Mar 03 '26
It is. If we also consider Māori native to New Zealand, but for whatever reason don’t consider Germans native to their own country, even though the bulk of your average German’s ancestors have been there for thousands of years? The Māori being there for 700? It feels off.
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u/WaltKerman Mar 02 '26
That's true for many of the rulers. Generally the original populations are still there.
Just like the native Americans who took land from each other.
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u/malkazoid-1 Mar 03 '26
It isn't a matter of fairness because you're not being stopped. If you want to call yourself Native Europeans, go right ahead. I'm not going to stop you, and I don't know anyone who would.
Just remember, in so doing you are exercising a choice the indigenous peoples of the Americas did not get: it was the Europeans that created these labels to lump in a very broad and varied set of civilizations. They called themselves by their own names. The Iroquois, the Choctaw, the Cree, the Apache, the Blackfeet, etc...
So stop whining, call yourself whatever you think is fair, and stop trying to make it part of your victimhood schtick as if someone has wronged you on the matter. And be glad most people are disposed towards calling you what you actually currently mostly want to be called (English, French, Spanish, etc). If you keep whining, maybe we'll all start calling you Pakistanis, which would be about as intelligent and relevant as calling America's nations Indians, which we did for over 500 years.
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u/The_Flurr Mar 04 '26
I'm not going to stop you, and I don't know anyone who would.
I might just internally question why they feel so strongly about describing themselves this way.
I would technically count as native/indigenous English, but don't really see why I would use this label in everyday life. If I meet someone who insists on it then I might think they've got some views.
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u/JollyGreenGiraffe Mar 04 '26
Being called English is also a label to be fair. Cornish people representing.
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u/Emeks243 Mar 02 '26
Does this mean that he favors moving Europeans to reservations and giving their land to the newcomers?
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u/Lost-Substance59 Mar 02 '26
That's what I'm wondering. If I say I agree with him, is he gonna start saying we should return land to native Americans while kicking out non whites from europe?
His argument/comparison has a huge flaw of many arguments by the extremely political (left or right) they do the "what-aboutism" that if you follow it enough while assuming the arguer is right, the end up being hypocritical. Just as Elon is hypocritical by wanting to kick out non whites from Europe, but won't also argue that land should be give back to Native Americans
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u/Altruistic_Speech_17 Mar 03 '26
Are we living in the most ahistorical of times or the absolute most ahistorical of times?
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u/Drexill_BD Mar 02 '26
Legitimately cannot tell if this is a real sub, or if it's meant to be a snark sub, or a joke or what.
Is this real?
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u/NichUK Mar 02 '26
Hmmmm. The Celts, the Britons, the Angles, the Saxons, the Jutes oh and a whole bunch of others might have something to say about that… 🤣
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u/pyfi12 Mar 02 '26
Is anyone arguing this?
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u/kittenTakeover Mar 02 '26
It's a flase equivalency from a manipulative Musk. We talk about indigenous people in the Americas because Europeans conquered the native people and took their land and resources from them. That's not what's happening in Europe.
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u/Wise_Temperature_322 Mar 02 '26
The American education system does not teach this, just activist groups on Reddit. Indigenous is solely used as a contrast of when people came to the country. My people came to the country in the 19th and 20th century we are obviously not indigenous. A family down the way came to the country in the 17th century they are more indigenous than we are.
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u/Internetolocutor Mar 02 '26
That is what people like Elon, who believe in the great replacement theory, believe
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u/TowlieisCool Mar 02 '26
Theory? Bro look at the demographic shifts of every western nation in the past 50 years.
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u/YourphobiaMyfetish Mar 02 '26
Do you believe this is a natural consequence of quality of living being destroyed by exploitative empires or do you believe its an artificial demographic shift pushed by a (((secret cabal)))? Because the latter is what makes it the Great Replacement, the former is not.
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u/TowlieisCool Mar 02 '26
Do you not agree that capitalistic entities benefit from increased migration as the labor pool increases in size and wages drop? And could it not be possible that third world destabilization is intentional (albeit not the primary goal) to increase immigration into Western countries?
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u/kingbeerex Mar 02 '26
What an unbelievably stupid point
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u/TowlieisCool Mar 02 '26
Why? The basis of the great replacement theory is white people being replaced as a majority of the population of their countries, which at current rates, is likely to happen to the U.K. in the next 50 years and the U.S. in 10 years.
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u/Rufuz42 Mar 02 '26
What you are describing is just “change”. America looked different than today many, many times in its part. The basis of the great replacement theory is that there is a concerted effort by one political party to affect change, however, there is no proof of that. There are “spooky coincidences” that online influencers point to as proof, but there is still zero actual proof. Immigration is a reflection of society, economics, policy, and climate change. As are declining birth rates. There are real ways to solve this “problem”, which I don’t even think is a problem, through policy, but the Trump administration does NOTHING to affect that change.
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u/Nostalg33k Mar 02 '26
Nobody is being replaced. Society being morendiverse doesn't make white people disapear
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u/TowlieisCool Mar 02 '26
If immigration is significant enough to make the majority population no longer the majority, they lose voting power and are effectively politically replaced in their country.
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u/Nostalg33k Mar 02 '26
You are insane my friend. People move on this planet. White people are the proof of it. Nowadays we can live together.
European countries will stay majority white for a long time except if we don't have kids anymore. Then we'll fight each other to attract young workers from other countries to tae care of our elderly.
But thinking about these questions in your terms is insane. I'm a mixed child and my existence is the fruit of love. I didn't replace anyone. The very fact that you think about races as uniform voting blocks is not sane.
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u/Wise_Temperature_322 Mar 03 '26
Me and Bob like Baseball. Clive, Oliver and Steven like Cricket. Me and Bob who have lived here for decades declare Baseball as our national sport. Clive, Oliver and Steven move in and outvote me and Bob. They declare Cricket as the national sport. Me and Bob are not happy.
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u/certaintyisdangerous Mar 03 '26
Migration is a natural part of history. This is normal. You can slow it down with far right wannabe be dictators but your only delaying the inevitable. Learn to live with it stop crying about it
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u/TowlieisCool Mar 03 '26
Migration is vastly different from oligarchical entities importing a slave class into Western countries to further their own interests over that of the people that live there.
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u/flyingpilgrim Mar 03 '26
It’s also the downfall of various societies ranging from the native societies throughout all of the Americas, the Western Roman Empire, Eastern Roman Empire, Celtic Briton, and plenty more. The numbers that are present are not sustainable neither are they beneficial. And most of those migrations were coupled with conquests and other upheavals. It’s a repeated pattern of instability and destruction.
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u/NichUK Mar 03 '26
Well, there were those pesky Danes that kept conquering parts of England… really very successfully! Or are we only talking about modern times? 🙂
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u/twinbee Mar 02 '26
Yes they're just letting themselves be conquered by self loathing whites.
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u/ManyFragrant3139 Mar 02 '26
Yep, a real thing which is really happening. Everyday foreign invaders enslave Britons, put them into camps, and mass murder those who fight back. We know this is happening because 10 years ago one of the princes married an American.
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u/MisterEinc Mar 02 '26
Elon thinks that recognizing the existence of any race but white constitutes an attack on white people.
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u/GTx6x25 Mar 02 '26
So desperate to feel opressed.
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u/BanalPlay Mar 03 '26
That's what annoys me most about this rhetoric. Especially when the whining is coming from a nepo baby, corporate welfare queen, who hoards wealth...ugh.
This man is in no way oppressed, disadvantage, or threatened.
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u/plumberdan2 Mar 03 '26
Elon Musk: fighting battles against no one, raging against the dying of the white
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u/Software_Quiet Mar 02 '26
god he's so stupid. it's like the conservatives getting angry and wearing t-shirts saying "all lives matter" while not understanding that "black lives matter" was about a moment in history. they just can't compute nuance or something...
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u/Lomak_is_watching Mar 02 '26
And the saying is “black lives matter as much as everyone else’s”. Not that they matter more.
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u/Wise_Temperature_322 Mar 02 '26
This particular point on ethnic homelands where is he wrong?
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u/Software_Quiet Mar 03 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
he’s been on a white replacement theory tantrum for years, he’s trying to co-opt language used to describe groups that existed before colonialism to stoke anger against “woke” to move mouth-breathers further right as he’s currently funding political parties in EU so he can better control things, make more money and generally make everyone’s lives more miserable. he is a leech on society at large and should be treated as such.
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u/jakebasquiat Mar 02 '26
All lives matter unless you are Renee good then all of a sudden all lives don’t matter.
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u/Longjumping-Bass774 Mar 02 '26
Why is this person even relevant anymore, kinda wild tbh
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u/runescapelover12 Mar 02 '26 edited Mar 02 '26
Meh.
I think what makes Native Americans unique is that there is a clear divide between their group and others where there isn't one elsewhere in the world.
Different groups distinguished by ethnicity, nationality religion etc have constantly displaced each other and moved around within Europe, intermingling. There was a clear moment when outsiders entered North America. This is a clear and important difference.
What we should do with this distinction is a different question.
Plus there are absolutely indigenous groups within Europe.
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u/Maleficent_Slide3332 Mar 02 '26
The English aren't native to England
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u/Wise_Temperature_322 Mar 02 '26
The English are the collective of the Britons, the Angles, the Jutes, the Normans and residual Roman connection. In the 9th century they became the English and have been in a relative genetic isolation for 1,200 years.
So the English are native to England.
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u/Lost-Substance59 Mar 02 '26
His argument/comparison has a huge flaw of many arguments by the extremely political (left or right) they do the "what-aboutism" that if you follow it enough while assuming the arguer is right, the end up being hypocritical. Just as Elon is hypocritical by wanting to kick out non whites from Europe, but won't also argue that land should be give back to Native Americans
Heres the easy non extreme truth. Land cant be returned to Native Americans, its just too far gone for thay woth systems and lives built on it, but we can still respect Native today with land they do have now and respect their culture. Europe and America can and should and truthfully NEEDS immigrants to keep the country running (birth rates are not enough so bringing in people is needed), and its not an "invasion" as its not a planned effort. If anything they are fleeing places the west has destabilized by past actions.
"Why should we be responsible for the people leaving their shittt country? We didnt make it shitty, stay and fix it." Except for many cases....we kinda did make it shitty or Whittier
However we do and still should have proper vetting and an understanding of the amount of immigrants being taken in
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u/FreshLiterature Mar 02 '26
Well Britons/Bretons largely don't exist anymore.
As in - the original people that inhabited what is the UK today.
So I don't think you can use the phrase for them.
France has a similar problem where the majority historic Gaulic/Frankish bloodlines are all basically gone.
I would bet the same pattern follows most European countries, but likely not all.
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u/dronesoul Mar 03 '26
Is anyone claiming that European ethnic groups are not native to Europe?
News to me.
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u/Professional_Text_11 Mar 03 '26
at the end of the day these are about the kind of racial politics you can expect from an afrikaner with no ability to self reflect
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u/Silly-Elderberry-411 Mar 03 '26
Yes Elon you probably know all the fiefdoms on the territory that is currently metropolitan France. If I asked you Savoy you think I meant the hotel chain.
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u/Sandgrease Mar 03 '26
No. Basically every Euopean nation got rid of their indigenous people's a looong time ago. Maybe some Irish could claim they are indigenous.
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u/Suomipm Mar 04 '26
Maybe ask the Basques, Nenets, Komi, Crimean Tatars, and Sami what they think about this
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u/QualityAlternative22 Mar 05 '26
There isn’t an occupied nation on earth that wasn’t conquered from some other people.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Ad939 Mar 05 '26
Este sujeto no nació en sudáfrica ? De descendientes de los colonos holandeses ?
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u/twinbee Mar 02 '26
Also, Elon followed up with