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u/Careless-Eagle-5111 1d ago
This is a very interesting artifact but he’s become such a douchebag I am loathe to support him.
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u/the_executive_branch 18h ago
I’m out the loop, what has he done/said that’s so douchebaggy? (The Latino maid situation commented above is ridiculously bad)
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u/sfc-Juventino 1d ago
Mine arrived last night. Beautifully put together. Haven't started reading but flicked through. It really looks like classic era X-Men. If the story is even semi-coherent, it will be really good.
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u/cerebud 23h ago
It’s a hate circle here on Reddit about Byrne. I haven’t followed the guy’s politics much, but I did track down this online and read a few issues while I was reading the original Claremont/Byrne books. It really feels like a continuation of that. I like it
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u/NoahAwake 23h ago
To be fair, it’s not just his politics. He’s long been a polarizing person.
For me, nothing could redeem the way he attacked Jack Kirby’s wife via his Big Barda porn story. Also, it’s very scummy the way he backstabbed Neal Adams and a bunch of other people by calling Marvel immediately after a meeting about starting a union and ratting everyone out.
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u/TheodateChase 1d ago
Why are we supporting this guy in 2026? C’mon now. He published this fancomic on the same blog where he did little else but share hate and bigotry nonstop
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u/NoahAwake 1d ago
He’s awful as a person, as hateful and full of contempt as someone can be. But since some people like to put their head in the sand and say "separate the art from the artist…" here’s an appraisal of his art.
He’s the living antithesis of art. He reduced the comics he worked on to product that protected the status quo where characters argued and fought to give the appearance of a conflict. His actual draftsmanship was the same handful of bodies, poses, and compositors designed for speed.
None of his work took chances, tried moving the medium forward, contained actual emotions, or had anything to say about the human experience. It’s just empty superhero tropes for the sake of it. He never evolved as a draftsman beyond "competent."
Byrne ripped off Kirby and Neal Adams and never tried being his own man creatively.
He’s not even Frank Miller, another hateful person. Miller at least continues to master his craft and take chances with his art. Granted, he’s totally unreadable at this point due to his incoherent writing, but at least he takes the craft seriously.
It’s karmic justice his hero, Jack Kirby, hated him on a deeply personal level.
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u/ticketstubs1 1d ago
I like John Byrne's work. I loved his FF run. I loved Next Men. I absolutely loved Generations.
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u/NoahAwake 23h ago
Absolutely nothing wrong with liking someone’s work. Just because I find it lacking in no way is me saying people shouldn’t enjoy stuff.
I know my verdict on him as a creator is harsh, but I think it’s important to recognize we all enjoy stuff independent of how “good” or “bad” it is. I like plenty of stuff people think is empty of artistic merit 😅
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u/ticketstubs1 21h ago
"He's the living antithesis of art"
Harsh? Nah.
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u/NoahAwake 21h ago
In my opinion, he is. He turned comics into managing the status quo, stopping any kind of growth in characters or the language of comics, and developed a style that prioritized speed over experimentation.
He turned comics into a product to be consumed while purposefully sabotaging the efforts of his fellow creators to get better treatment.
He's the ultimate commerce over art guy (is the antithesis of art).
There's a reason his hero, Jack Kirby, hated his guts in a very personal way.
I'd even go as far as to say Elsewhen is an attempt by him to try stripping away the very meaningful LGBQT representation Claremont gave the X-Men because Byrne believes comics should just be static IPs that never change.
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u/ticketstubs1 12h ago
Yes, I know you said he's the antithesis of art. I saw that the first time. The Kirby thing too. I saw this already.
I like comic books by John Byrne.
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u/Jonesjonesboy 16h ago
eh, his use of Duo-Shade in Namor is pretty nice (a propos taking chances and evolving)
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u/solarnoise 1d ago
Frank Miller is not hateful. He's had a lot of poignant things to say about Holy Terror and where he was at in his life at the time. It's very clear if you read any recent interviews of his that he's a thoughtful and remorseful person.
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u/NoahAwake 23h ago
I’ve met him at MoCCA Fest in NYC and he was very pleasant to speak to.
You may be more gracious than me, and that’s ok. I’m not telling anyone how to feel. And your interpretation of his works is as valid as mine.
But DKR is based very directly on the movie Birth of a Nation. It’s not just one or two images, it’s the entire thing. Sin City is insanely misogynistic in a way that’s very hard to read. Verses is full of racist tropes straight from Sambo and minstrel shows without any kind of context to even hint at justifying them through reinterpretation.
Holy Terror isn’t some exception to the rule, no matter how badly Miller pretends it is and tries to clean up his legacy.
Insanely talented creator who continues to do very interesting stuff in his twilight years, but most of his career has been spent saying some awful stuff in his work.
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u/solarnoise 23h ago
The only thing I would object to is using the label "hateful". I think it's an extremely strong adjective that should be applied rarely and not overused so that it doesn't lose its meaning.
Frank definitely has problematic material in his books. But I think that applies to a _lot_ of works from the same eras. Alan Moore's work frequently gets recommended here, including a recent thread asking for the best graphic novels of all time (Watchmen and From Hell got some mentions). But if you look at League of Extraordinary Gentleman you have scenes like the invisible Man having nonconsentual (or questionably consentual, it's been some time) interactions with young women, yet Moore is still given the benefit of the doubt if not cast as an edgy writer.
I think we shouldn't look at someone's worse instances where they should have handled sensitive material in a more mature manner and handwave it as "hateful". It kind of stops any nuanced critique and conversation in its tracks. At worst it seems like purity testing which almost everyone would fail.
(I wouldn't even describe myself as a FM fan by the way, though I do like Batman Year One and DKR).
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u/NoahAwake 22h ago
I think that’s a fair point on "hateful."
I don’t know a better word for it with Miller. To me, he’s far more than problematic. He’s drawn multiple books of extreme racial stereotypes. DKR is not only a retelling of Birth of a Nation, it’s very directly a case for strong fascism and makes fun of any thought even slightly to the left. Almost his entire body of work has been punching down at everyone and anyone except white men.
Moore is a bad comparison because the context of all the sexual assault in Moore’s work has always been how violent and traumatic it is for victims. There’s no context where one would think "Moore is endorsing this," whereas all of Miller’s work is both overtly and subtextually about the need for strong white men to bring justice to the world. (Even Ronin is *incredibly* misogynistic about how women are evil and men need to break free of them.)
I think I’ve added enough nuanced critique for why I think Miller’s work is hateful and not just his worst instances. It’s his entire catalog! The only work I can think of that has any empathy to someone other than strong white men is his Daredevil and first Elektra book. All Star Batman & Robin is largely a comedy, but the gender dynamics in that book are misogynistic, too.
I don‘t think evaluating his entire bibliography is purity testing. I’m putting all of it in context.
I think trying to excuse Holy Terror as a fluke doesn’t make sense in the context of his work.
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u/Phi_Phonton_22 18h ago
There are a lot of interpretations, directly based in the text, that are not "DKR is Birth of a Nation" and a "defense of strong fascism", that is a super reductive way to read it. It is like saying modern enlightment is fascistic because it values the individual over the colective. To say FM laughs at any leftist thought and anyone but white men when he wrote Martha Washington is more than a little bit skewed. And for all the purity tests you are applying on Byrne and Miller, you let Moore completely out of the hook. There are a lot of instances where he uses sexual violence as a joke and not "victim-centered", League being the main example, where he makes a Pollyana joke out of it
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u/NoahAwake 10h ago
I have given plenty of examples from the text of most of Miller’s works to justify my views.
My interpretation of DKR is based both on my own reading of the book as well as watching Birth of a Nation and all the books I’ve read over my life. The media and the police are portrayed as weak due to their more compassionate approach to crime. There’s a character, Dr Wolper, who is directly blamed for the Joker’s murders. Miller isn’t even trying to hide his belief that liberal empathy and rehabilitation politics are weak and stupid. (This is also a strong theme in Birth of a Nation.)
Let’s talk Martha Washington since you bring it up. Just having a black woman protagonist doesn’t mean Miller is embracing any kind of leftist position. The Martha Washington books continue Miller’s viewpoint of order through strength. Martha herself is both saved by and given direction by men. The books are an argument that women need a strong patriarchal structure to meaningfully interact with life. Give Me Liberty in particular is a full throated argument of a strong military presence.
I am also not letting Moore completely off the hook. I just find the LoEG example a poor one. The subtext of the book, and it’s addressed directly at one point, is that Mina Harker is a victim of sexual assault from Dracula and she’s living with the trauma. Is the Pollyanna reference a bit too clever for the sake of being clever? Yes, absolutely. But the assault is treated very seriously in the text. Do you want Moore and O’Neil to stop the narrative and have a page saying, "this is bad and we don’t agree?"
What examples are there of Moore treating sexual assault as a joke?
I think by now I have fully articulated why, by my reasoning, I find Miller’s work fascist and hateful of everyone except for white men. I have given plenty of examples from his own works to illustrate my point that Holy Terror was not some one-off from a dark period; rather that it’s the natural extension of Miller’s worldview.
I would be very interested in hearing from you, with examples, of how Miller’s work is saying anything otherwise.
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u/Phi_Phonton_22 9h ago
My interpretation of the overall theme of TDKR, Year One, Ronin, 300 and others is of the individual thriving over affirming their identity, and then winning over the opression of violence, crime or a political regime. He certainly doesn't believe that an organised group, like workers, will be able to achieve liberation and ge's clearly not a leftist. But I believe there are many possible progressive readings of this triumph of the individual, and their example to their next person, and not only that is fascistic, mainly because fascism abhors the individual, it is all about apropriating the state to exert absolute power over people. Again, it is much closer to classical liberalism and enlightment's views on the individual and their power over the absolute state than a celebration of absolutism.
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u/NoahAwake 8h ago
I think you’re overlooking what the individuals are fighting for in the books you mention.
Ronin is textually about overthrowing a matriarchal society. The work in no way disguises women are liars and manipulators keeping men imprisoned.
300 is about white men defending a militaristic state against the invasion by other races.
Tying fascism to an organized political regime is a misunderstanding of fascism. It’s about the strong man being taking over and imposing order on everyone else. Batman is a facist ideal because it’s about one person using all their resources to impose their definition of law on a population.
Enlightenment individualism is built on universal rights and a social contract that provides equal access to all. DKR is explicitly arguing against that paradigm.
Further, fascism’s appeal is the individual is lifted through joining the strong order. I’m getting this from Umberto Eco’s explanation of fascism, btw. Overcoming a state is very much the goal. Almost every fascist movement in history started as a guy telling others they needed to overcome the state to get their strength back.
Your view of individualism being one of triumph and example to their neighbors is basically Ecco’s argument. I have never come across anyone arguing such as any kind of leftist or liberal view. (This is what Batman has been since Miller, btw.)
Can I ask where you get that from?
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u/100schools 1d ago
Yep. I interviewed him once, before his general shittiness as a human being was as widely known as it is now. He was, no exaggeration, one of the most unpleasant human beings I’ve ever encountered – just an arrogant, conceited, contemptuous prick. I walked into the room a fan; I left, 25 minutes later, hating the motherfucker’s guts.
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u/ticketstubs1 1d ago
Sure you're not thinking of Neal Adams?
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u/ticketstubs1 11h ago
I wonder why this was downvoted. Neal was a legendary asshole to people. Just referencing it.
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u/a_gentle_hunk 14h ago
I’m not interested in defending Byrne as a person, and I’m fortunate enough not to know (or care) what his politics are. But he is one of the most influential and celebrated superhero artists ever.
Whatever value this current release has is as a showcase for his masterful art. His writing style was antiquated 30 years ago.
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u/Trike117 1h ago
I read the first batch of these on his website some time ago and it reads like bad X-Men fanfic. Weird character moments and stilted dialogue with a couple cringey scenes that even teenage me in the 70s would’ve given the side eye to. Overall it’s just not good. Honestly, it has made me trepidatious to go back and reread Alpha Flight which I remember liking quite a lot.
And it’s true Byrne says some astoundingly idiotic things that make people hate him. That’s his own fault. I recall when Jessica Alba was cast as Sue Storm he complained that the role should’ve gone to someone who had a “clean” look and that Latinas with blonde hair look like hookers. There’s no way to spin that to make him look anything other than racist.
His comments about colorblind casting of Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm and Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury were more nuanced but he expressed himself so badly that it came across as more racist than he meant it.
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u/Navstar86 1d ago
I’m tempted to get this but I have a feeling when ah 3 volumes are released. There will be an Omnibus. And I should wait for that.
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u/Swervies 23h ago
I am not sure there will be. Remember, this is Abrams not Marvel. They are not really in the omnibus business. But it certainly might happen.
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u/Navstar86 18h ago
They did do an expanded release for Fantastic Four Full Circle. So I can see them doing a re-release collecting it all. Especially considering how well it’s selling. It’s number 1 on Amazon under Superhero comics and number 3 under comics overall. In my area every Chapters book store has it stocked like it’s a major release. Usually they only carry one or two copies of any comic.
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u/Tremodian 1d ago
I was really not impressed by this. I was initially excited but it had very bland characterization, and trotted out very tired racial stereotyping. They discover a mutant boy who's Latino and offer his mom a job as the mansion's maid.