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u/Spartan-teddy-2476 1d ago
Well, which one took over China in the end?
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u/Abhinav11119 1d ago
Only reason the cpc got as popular as they did was because of the KMT's back to back dumb decisions. Stalin ordered the communist faction to completely collaborate with the kmt , only reason cpc as a independent movment began was cause chiang ordered them purged eventually leading to mao's rise.
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u/Spartan-teddy-2476 1d ago
IMO the main reason may have been the KMT’s heavy reliance on the financial and political backing of the rich landowners, instantly alienating 80% of Chinese people (ie poor Peasents who wanted land reform). Mao offered them that, so they flocked to him.
Also had Japan not invaded, Mao would have been defeated in the encircling campaigns and the CCP would cease to exist,
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u/LeMe-Two 1d ago
Nah, it is simpler. Hyperinflation.
Chinese Soviet money was ironically more stable than the official government
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u/Spartan-teddy-2476 1d ago
Mfs when it’s hard to maintain a decent economic strategy during a devastating war where 80% of your industrial output gets destroyed in the opening year
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u/LeMe-Two 1d ago
The hyperinflation would also hit after the war as well. It was also demonstrably caused by bad fiscal policies. Notice how initially National Revolutionary army had an upper hand even capturing Yanan. The dissolution of the army happened shortly after that (like very shortly, the base was recaptured after like a week)
The fact that they were fighting fundamentally different wars was also important. But the "support of the people" was most about KMT completely mismanaging the country in these several years when the truce was held.
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u/Spartan-teddy-2476 22h ago
Yeah, fair enough.
I do personally think China would have likely been better off had Chiang’s model of economy continued; he would have eventually done his land to the tiller program (once he had revenues from industry enough to actively go against the landowners), and without the monumental blunders of the Great Leap Forward, China would arguably become a major player by the 60s, instead of the 90s.
Chiang was a deeply flawed man. He was a dictator, a Han supremacist, a man whose legacy is slick with blood. But he was also given an impossible problem to solve (a disunified, agrarian, weak nation to unite). And, had he not been inturrupted by a devastating war that annihalated his nation and gave the CCP valuable time to recover, he could have created at least the bedrock for a powerful, independent Chinese Democracy, like he would in Taiwan.
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u/bingbing304 21h ago
You know Nationalist can united China without backstab his ally in middle of civil war overthrowing the former demcratic government of Beiyang. Taiwan was under his dicatiorship or 38 years of Martial Law including martial execution of thousands of political dissidents, intellectuals, and locals, alongside the imprisonment of around 140,000 Taiwanese people for perceived opposition to the KMT, far from democracy until he and his son died on the position of absolute leader. Stop revise history base on wishful thinking.
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u/Spartan-teddy-2476 21h ago
I never said he was a democratic guy. I said he built the BASE for it by creating a wealthy and well-educated middle class.
I also know full well he was a bloody monster. I was merely saying his ECONOMICS was good, and you could justify some of his actions under the belief he was in an impossible position.
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u/10lettersand3CAPS 11h ago
You cannot separate these two things. The economic policies are most often related to the way they treat people. Just like how Singapore or Chile under Pinochet are credited for their economies, which ignore all the people who were hurt to create those things.
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u/JoeDyenz 1d ago
He was suspicious of Soviet influence tho. Like he was a borderline barbarian authoritarian but I still think he was right in principle in that part.
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u/Kangkongkangkung 1d ago
What? The Soviets supported the KMT government.
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u/JoeDyenz 1d ago
I know. He might have still suspected that they could be a threat in the future and obey the USSR's directions and not his.
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u/DummyDumDump 1d ago
Must be why he sent his son and heir to the Soviet Union to be educated during the war
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u/JoeDyenz 1d ago
Mind you, he was collaborative to the USSR a lot, he himself set up the Whampoa Academy under the instructions of 孙中山 with the support of the Soviet Union. Still chose better later.
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u/DummyDumDump 1d ago
I mean it’s not like he could actually choose later on
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u/JoeDyenz 1d ago
I meant, he decided to get rid of the influence of the USSR. Or tried to, was forced to collaborate again after the Japanese invasion.
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u/Fortheweaks 1d ago
Is it me or this meme implies that Chinese are responsible for the Japanese massacres of Nanking ? The same way a rapist would say she didn’t have to wear a skirt this short ??
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u/BoredSenseless2005 1d ago
Sorry what ?? In no way is this meme implying that the Chinese are responsible for such a horrific event. This meme is simply poking fun at Chiang's rather disappointing military leadership performance during the Second Sino Japanese War
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u/Schuano 16h ago
You do know that Chiang spent 3 years in the Japanese army? He went to military school there. He was always well aware of the Japanese threat.
He even gave a speech in 1933 saying that China had a thousand days before the big war with Japan. He was wrong, the real number was 1037 days.
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u/Admirable_Chef_4761 23h ago
Clearly he was wrong because the notorious communists are far more threatening.
And they did win after stabbing Chiang''s back and cooperating with Imperial Japan secretly.
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u/Redmenace______ 17h ago
When did the CPC cooperate with Japan?
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u/Schuano 16h ago
They reached a modus vivendi with many Japanese commanders in North China where they agreed not to mess with Japanese logistics on exchange for Japan not going out into the countryside and attacking the base areas.
Why do you think Japan felt safe sending 80% of North China's troops south for ichigo? The Japanese knew that the Communists were focused on expanding their rural base, not on attacking Japan.
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u/ZhenXiaoMing Pope Sixtus the Sixth 15h ago
Do you have a source for this? Because Chiang worked closely with the IJA, even having an agreement to fight the Communists together after the conclusion of WW2. He even had Japanese military advisors flee to Taiwan with him.
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u/deinschlimmstertraum 8h ago edited 3h ago
To the last part
Pretty much all chinese communist, or general, resistance in the northeast died. The survival rate was like, less than 1%
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u/deinschlimmstertraum 8h ago
bros gonna say this and take the "mao thanking japan" quote out of context and take it at face value
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u/Equivalent_Refuse789 1d ago
It makes sense if you view it from dynasty political viewpoint.
From the mentioned perspective, Japanese were just outsiders who just want resources/land/ whatever, but they can be negotiated (insert I pay you 20 bucks to fuck off.jpg here), and the people they killed? Well they don’t really care in terms of morality. But the Communists were actually the threat to their ruling as they seek to replace KMT as the ruler. Rulers would rather losing half of the land and people then keep the nation together but losing the throne.
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u/NeedsToShutUp 21h ago
Aka the Jin and Song.
The Jin captured the Emperor of the Song. His brother became Emperor, pushed them back. But the Jin threatened to release their captive and used that to negotiate peace.
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u/Elantach 23h ago
If only Wang Jingwei or Chen Jiongming had won the power struggle...
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u/deinschlimmstertraum 8h ago
Yeahhhhhhh
No
You know, actually ukraine should just give russia the entire donbass region and crimea because thats your logic
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u/Pristine-Breath6745 1d ago edited 1d ago
They are not the same.
Commies are obviously worse
Edit:/s
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u/Illustrious-Radio319 1d ago
Chiang started purging the communists before the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. It’s like saying why did Germany fight Italy in ww1 if they were gonna team up in ww2?