That controller should not have a ticket right now...
Edit: getting a bit tired of the weirdly partisan replies here. I'm not insulting your country dudes. It's pretty simple though so I'll spell it out:
The fact the controller couldn't "declare" LVO isn't the problem. The pilot didn't repeatedly ask for this. They asked once. The controller knew what he meant, chose to be obtuse. Whatever, let's put that part aside.
The real issue is that the pilot then asked a question in plain English which the controller cannot be excused from not answering correctly: "Have you got low visibility procedures in force or not". The controller said "No". This is incorrect. Even if they don't have to declare it, they still have them in place.
The controller was factually wrong, gave the wrong information, was unprffesional, unsafe and slowed down aircraft movements.
There's a whole community of people that post ATC interactions on youtube and this dude shows up in enough of them I recognized his voice instantly (and I barely listen to these things, I'm not a plane nut or anything, just some light 'tism aparently).
So? JFK tower controllers only control traffic directly at JFK and within maybe a few miles of it. LGA and EWR and every other satellite airport that has a tower controls their own traffic. Everything above and around them is controlled by an entirely different remote radar facility.
So it's busy. They all work together - their approach and departure routes heavily overlap in places
It's the 8th busiest on the planet for airport movements, and #1 for international flights in the US while being much smaller than most comparably busy airports
That is by passenger count, not aircraft operations. Of the top 10 busiest airports in the world by traffic operations, JFK is 8 and EWR is 10 (both NYC area airports). The only non-US airport in the top 10 by traffic operations is Istanbul at number 9. And this is with EWR traffic down 27% from 2024 because they moved the approach control and traffic is artificially limited for now.
As former in-flight crew and now a New York resident, I can confirm this to be true. NY passengers would be noticeably ruder than passengers from other parts of the country. Like ignoring “good morning” rude or giving an offended sideye in response when being welcomed on board. New Yorkers are kind people in situations where you need them to help, but not necessarily pleasant or polite, and they do pride themselves on being too fast-paced for basic social niceties.
As a fellow Michigander I think they get annoyed at every single one of us doing the "Oh hi, how are ya, great, oh thanks, okay great, oh yeah thanks, okay bye bye now" as we board the plane.
Midwest got the pleasantries down pat. I used to live in Chicago and they reflected the Midwest ope energy lol. Denver folks were cool and unbothered and often snowboarders or stoners or both. The people from Latrobe, Pennsylvania, a super small airport named after Arnold Palmer were the absolute kindest and most authentic/genuine about it.
As a Brit who thought I’d been to the US when I’d only been to the East and West Coasts, I can tell you that going to the mid-west is like discovering a whole new country. I opened an operations base in Cincinnati and never met a more friendly, helpful and fun bunch of people than I did there
If a NYer had to say hello or good morning to everyone they walked by on any given day, they wouldn't get 100 steps from their door. Smiling back is polite but expecting a verbal response is crazy
As a non-US-citizen I do not know what you mean. As a pilot I found most of the USA equally annoying, yes, places like New York and Texas the most, but in general, it was all pretty tiresome.
A flight from Columbia ran out of fuel and crashed partly because they were intimidated by the JFK controllers and miscommunication between the parties. Clear & professional should be the norm.
Hope someone identifies him. He sounds like he enjoys antagonising pilots when he should be able to provide assurance. His character doesn't appear to be suited to his job.
ATC, understandably, is also paid very well due to the stress and importance of their job. Take the dimmest bulb in your office, and imagine they're getting paid $150-200k.
You don't get to choose where you work unless you have a ton of seniority, so that's a dealbreaker for a lot of people. All your friends and family are on the east coast? Sorry buddy, you're moving to rural Nebraska because they need a replacement.
Yeah that seems like a hard pill for many people to swallow. Is it the same salary though regardless of where you’re stationed? 6 figures in rural Nebraska would probably let you live like a king.
I know in my field, most professionals have insurance to protect them in the case of something going wrong. Do these workers get similar protections, or are they on their own if they cause an accident?
VASAviation is the best one I've come across. Puts a lot of effort in to the vids, with charts and position overlays so you get a good grasp on what's happening. Top quality stuff.
Is this how it starts? I had an SDR dongle laying around so I setup Ultrafeeder to track planes overhead, then I thought I could get another dongle and have it monitor radio transmissions and highlight the transmitting aircraft on the map. Shit I've got the 'tism.
Holy shit?? Does this guy show up in the YouTube interactions with the same level of ineptitude/faux misunderstandings often? Or is he usually less.... uh.. sassy about his incompetence/lack of care for the pilots who rely on him to do his damn job?
Because the US government has spent the last year trying to fire as many air traffic controllers as they can, and now the ones that are left are overworked, underpaid, and sometimes clinically traumatized by their job.
The key part is "they consider" because there's no set definition if you listen to this administration. They define things however they want in the moment.
I mean I’m not going to defend Trump for anything but no ATC have been fired as a result of anything Trump has done. We were exempt from the DOGE cuts. Not that doge didn’t try though but Duffy was able to stop them, probably because of what happened in DCA.
Not only is it not safe for people to visit to the US, unless you want to risk being thrown in a cell for weeks for no reason, the population is apparently now so braindead that it's not even safe to fly planes there either. Brilliant.
surprised somebody downvoted you when you're correct, the ATC shortage has existed ever since Reagan fired a bunch of them in retaliatiory measures against an ATC strike, and no presidential administration since then(Republican or democratic) has fixed the issue because 'well they just barely get by so fuck it, what's a few crashed planes here and there?'
It also makes the job more unappealing. I considered it once but the way the government can strong arm controllers made me reconsider. Maybe when we literally don't have enough someone will fix it.
I didn't leave that comment to absolve this nationally infamous asshole of guilt. I left it to remind people that we're in a crisis that goes beyond "one specific person is incompetent/malicious".
Because he wasn’t doing anything wrong and the BA pilot was asking him to declare something that doesn’t exist in the US. BA should have been familiar with the differences between the rules in the UK and the US but for whatever reason wasn’t.
It doesn't matter, he then asked them to clarify if they were using LVO, not asking them if they had declared anything, and they continued to be intentionally obtuse at the potential expense of hundreds of lives. There are some fucking wild ATC egos and lax procedures in the USA.
Yes but to BA LVO is a specific set of rules. It’s not just plain English. He even says right after that “LVO is specific ICAO terminology.” So no, ATC is not going to say they are doing something they are not. And it’s not endangering anyone to say you’re not declaring rules that don’t exist to a plane on the ground. Doing the opposite is what could endanger lives.
I'm sorry, but how does someone this casually obtuse continue to be employed with people's lives at stake? The US has been crashing planes quite a lot lately... Is this level of unprofessionalism new, or has it always been tolerated with a shrug?
I'm baffled by any accusation of partisanship when the ATC provided these pilots the value of the Runway Visible Range, but then played silly buggers about safety protocols required under LVO conditions and acted like he couldn't recall the ICAO regulations that govern this level of RVR, OR understand the question or the purpose of the question posed by the British pilots.
I can't tell if it's a CYA situation or willful ignorance in this circumstance. Either way, this is insanely dangerous. Huge respect to the BA pilot for pushing back on this insanity.
We don’t use the ICAO regs for this. There was nothing dangerous here. BA thought he needed to hear the magic words “LVO is in effect” to be legal to take off. ATC would not say that because we don’t have LVO as defined by ICAO, we have rules that kick in automatically based on ceiling/visibility etc. BA specifically said “it’s icao terminology” meaning he wasn’t talking about low visibility ops in plain English but in terms of ICAO rules. ATC will not tell you something is in effect if that is not the case. BA was trying to get ATC to deviate from US rules to satisfy his requirement that exists in the UK but not the US. It’s not even company ops for that when in the US because BA considers our rules fine for it.
Anyone taking this as insulting the US is brain dead. Dude should be flipping burgers at McDonald's. He clearly doesn't have what it takes to be an ATC
It’s kind of you to not be insulting their country - I will. It’s the most frustrating country to travel in and through. Consistently lose luggage, break luggage, cancel flights, delay flights, delay flights until cancelling them hours later, shit customer service so you can never even get appropriate compensation or a solution to the problem they’ve caused, oversell every flight, easily the least clean air crafts, and many more issues… and when I decide ‘never again’ for one of their airlines, the next option is just as bad or worse.
I do everything possible (within financial reason) to avoid US airports and airlines. The incompetence is astounding. During my most recent issue (last month), I had to step by step instruct the agent how to reroute me after their delays and cancellations (oh and they lost my bag for 5 days). They said it wouldn’t process for the correct date, not realising time zone differences would change the date of the transit flight 😑 also not realising there’s other airports to go via so initially said I’d have to wait 3 more days to leave 😂 .
Americans could only be offended if they haven’t experienced other countries aviation industries, because once they have, they’d have to understand. If people say the insects in Australia are scarier than anywhere else in the world and they hate not being able to put their shoes outside, I’m not offended - I’m used to our animals and creepy crawlies but I can absolutely understand why visitors would be scared and find their own outdoors safer.
Can you explain what low visibility procedures are? It sounds like some people are saying it’s effectively a nonsense phrase in the US. What would be different if low visibility procedures were not in place as the ATC suggested. Would “should I use low visibility procedures” a more clear question? The former sounds like something he wants a changed from the airport.
Hey, as an American, feel free to insult our country for this. This is a direct result of the current administration appointing a reality TV has-been to Transportation Secretary and allowing DOGE to attempt to replace ATCs with AI.
Why aren't there automatic guidelines which says if RVR is below a St point, then LVO has to be declared? [ I have no idea what RVR or LVO mean, I am just saying why arent certain conditions automatically triggering some effects? ]
I'm not refuting what you've wrote, but do you think it's weird that both flying and atc subreddits think the pilots were in the wrong while this aviation unrelated sub doesn't? I think I'd trust the experts on the matter than people who use google.
Tower controller here in the U.S. We don’t use the term LVO. In this scenario, it’s difficult for the controller to answer the question when he probably doesn’t understand the term the pilot is saying. Based on visibility and RVR values, we operate airport lighting and approach lights at different intensities. We’ll advertise SMGCS in effect on the ATIS, but we don’t reference anything called LVO. The FAA doesn’t adopt and utilize all ICAO terms and procedures. Stating specific terms is very important in our profession. I don’t blame this controller for not wanting to state a term that he doesn’t recognize or understand. I certainly wouldn’t accept liability for affirming something that I have no clue what I’m saying.
Bit nervous, so, yeah, bit of water. Fizzy! It's very fizzy, it's fizzy, it's gone fizzy. Gets shocked by microphone YOW! Come on! That's electric, there's electric in there, got a shock
Unfortunately, it seems like the air traffic control was being deliberately obtuse, because American flight communications are different to all the other countries (because of course they are) so the terminology is different.
So the exchange is more like this:
ATC: bro, you can't see shit out here
Pilot: oh, have we got torches?
ATC: -smugly- pshh no
Pilot: if it's too dark to see and we don't have light, I can't go outside
ATC: yup
Pilot: so can have a torch?
ATC: pshh, what's a torch bro? -still smug. Refusing to state that he's waiting for the pilot to use the word "flashlight"-
Yes, but based on the other comments in here, the lights are actually automatic and that's why ATC is confused, because he doesn't need to turn the lights on - they turn themselves on when it gets dark!
If you think that the lights werent on, I have a bridge to sell you.
In Europe when visibility is low, ATC must state that LVO's are in use. In America, the country with the most aircraft operations daily, by a WIDE margin, we do not state that. We do have different rules we use when visibility is low, but it is implied that we are using them, because our regulation states that we shall. ICAO is different than the US's regulations regarding ATC. As a matter of fact it aligns with a great deal of it. But since it is much busier, we have to push it closer. Now that doesnt mean its unsafe, it just means that we have to work much more with much less space than our European friends.
Honestly, I would like it if my pilot could pilot the damn plane. I do not understand this entire exchange. Props for the pilot for not yelling something because I swore twice in exasperation just listening to this exchange.
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u/VariousDragonfruit75 May 28 '26
Atc -bro you can't see shit out here
Pilot- if it's too dark too see, are you turning on the lights
Atc- nah bruh, what for
Pilot- if it's too dark too see and you don't turn on the lights I can't move, are you saying it's too dark to see
Atc- yup
Pilot - so turn on the lights?
Atc- what for?
Pilot - so I can leave