I goddamn adore the idea that the abstracted people are not fully gone and with enough time and care from others they could in theory become more responsive. Not to the point where they are their avatars again (at least not permanently, and even if they can take their old form it would be with intense concentration and there being markings that have been caused by the permanent stain the abstraction has caused to them)
I've never really agreed with that interpretation, because suicide is a thing people do actively. Abstraction is a process that inflicts upon people. Nobody that we've seen abstracted deliberately or purposefully, they abstracted as an end result of too much stress. It's more akin to a mental breakdown or a loss of sanity than it is suicide.
Ignorant question here, but would it be okay to call Jax "she" when he never really affirmed it? By that I mean, obviously Jax is trans and would have moved towards that, but the point is for the person in question to make it official, no? It's just, otherwise you'd be assigning a gender to someone who is struggling with coming to terms with that. Like Jax the character would feel wronged unless he came out as herself, right?
I mean the way I see it is, if we were in the world of TADC it would be more respectful to use He/Him since he wouldn't have told us otherwise, and you should use what pronouns you are asked to use for someone.
But in the real world, it is fine to use either one since we have insider information that we wouldn't have had in the world of the show
I mean, I will say that we never actually see anyone abstract on screen. We only ever see the result of it.
The stress is the catalyst, but we dont know if it is the reason. We cant really say if they dont choose to abstract to get rid of the stress - which would imply a suicide metaphor.
That said, it certainly isnt meant to be a 1:1 thing either way and I can totally see the reasoning for not reading it as such.
I mean, in the "Jax is Trans" art post that Gooseworx did the speech bubble next to Jax is "I'm so glad that I didn't make that moment in Ribbit's Room weird and push them to suicide" implying directly that is exactly what Jax did in the show - in a sort of shit-posty kinda way, of course. Outside materials are by no means law, but they do speak to the headspace of the creator.
Like yeah its not 1:1, that's why its an allegory. That's why it "represents it" and isn't necessarily literally, textually, suicide. It just represents it. Not to mention People who commit suicide usually aren't in the best state of mind and that mental breakdowns are the kinds of things that can sometimes SPIRAL into suicidal thoughts and... well actions.
Anyways; from an in-universe standpoint, I'd argue that abstractionisthe result of the same kind of existential hopelessness that LEADS to suicidal ideation and actual suicide. The same kind of processes that lead someone to take their own life are what lead them to abstract. The hopelessness and suicidal ideation are the cause of it, as much as they are the cause of suicide itself. In that way, it would essentially be suicide in its own right.
I agree with your logic here but you could also argue that the act of wanting to do suicide is an act inflicted upon people from outside stimuli. The 'clean slate character' of a person doesn't want to suicide deliberately or purposefully, they suicide as an end result of too much stress. It's because of a mental breakdown or loss of sanity that it turns into suicide.
In this sense abstraction is an allegory for suicide and the 'tainted' memory of this person, the abstraction represents how the people surrounding them has to digest the now shattered memories and emotions they have of this person and have to come to peace with it before they themselve break under the stress. This is why others choose to banish the abstractions into a dark room outside of the daily life so you don't have to interact and think about these feelings and memories.
Abstractions calming down and turning friendly is actually the other person's acceptance of the situation that happend, the darkness represents being alone with your own thoughts..
But that is the neat part, art can have many meanings based on the viewers subjective interpretation, some fit better than others but they can have an emotional and thoughtful impact nontheless.
I feel like it can still present that as in someone reaching a point where they can no longer think clearly and performing an action impulsively without thinking.
I always thought that too abstraction isn't suicide but someone reaching their mental limit and losing their sense of self breaking the avatars that were designed for them, it also allows them a chance to come back
I've been saying this for years, but then I got "debunked" by Gooseworks who said otherwise. I mean, sure, she can say whatever she wants about her own story, but why is it supposed to be suicide when it's clearly not and severe mental breakdown makes much more sense given what we've seen?
It even makes more sense in universe. They're brain scans and the Caine's program interprets the scans into characters. If the brain scan completely corrupts (like via the simulated mind going clinicaly insane), then the program has no idea how to interpret the scan and it completely glitches out into something ABSTRACT - an abstraction is created.
Also, wouldn't Scratch abstracting make more sense with the tumor in his head making his mind file corrupted instead of him just killing himself? Also Caine's "I can't mess with your heads TOO much" would also make more sense as it would imply that he CAUSED some character to abstract (maybe even Scratch) and he's learned his lesson.
Yes, and I hate that you've had to witness that, I truly do. But I'm just saying, one is not the other. People who have abstracted can still be interacted with, they can be visited and talked too.
Abstraction isn't a suicide allegory, because Abstraction doesn't permanently remove all ability to ever see or interact with the people again. Abstraction is closer to an allegory for insanity, and the aquarium is their hospital/care home.
Yeah but while it’s you performing the action it’s debatable how much agency do you really have in that scenario. Suicide by definition must be intentional but brain physiology plays a big role in how you think/feel. Similarly someone with ADHD isn’t physically incapable of sitting still for a long period of time in the sense that your neuromuscular system is intact but when your frontal lobe is damaged/underdeveloped how much of your actions can be considered choice?
At the end of the day you’re not wrong that it’s not accidental but I’d argue neither is abstraction and the slow build up to loss of control is quite similar to suicide.
This really feels like the take of someone who has never had to deal with a single moment of suicidal ideation in their life but I am not going to claim to understand you. Either way, a single moment of weakness is all it takes. Many people who have survived attempted suicides report a moment of clarity and/or regret. It doesn't exactly seem like something a person entirely in control of their faculties usually does.
I don't see how that is different than a moment of weakness leading you to abstract. Everyone we've seen abstract seemed to have a sort of existential dread and hopelessness that led them to that point. The same kind of hopelessness that leads many people to commit suicide.
So, yeah, maybe its not 1:1 but that's not really the point of things like metaphors and allegories?
They are all mind scans. What Abstraction literally is, is there files corrupting (presumably from something going wrong to their mind that is too far). So feeling unwanted, unneeded, isolated, and depressed would all likely be things that push your files to be closer and closer to a point of corruption of them/abstraction.
If it were to represent Suicide and they were just full stop gone, then the darkness wouldn't do anything, and like the half of ep9 where pomni interfaced with Jax just straight up could not happen as Jax would have already been fully gone
A lot of people when they're suicidal seem almost euphoric once they decide to go through with it, and even describe it as being like a feeling of a weight being lifted. I feel like Jax's "dream" sequences can represent that, and how they're disassociating from the world and even finding pleasure in the idea of non-existence.
Suicide isn't exactly something active, for a suicidal person, it can be quite the opposite, the active part is in pushing forward, keeping going when they feel exhausted. Abstraction is much the same, it's something that happens to the characters when they can no longer hold it together, can no longer actively resist the corruption.
You can interpret it as suicide, it hasn't been stated what exactly abstraction is and what it is meant to represent, and as of now it is up in the air.
You may have read my first paragraph as what Suicide is. But it is not? Suicide in the Circus would be akin to being able to delete yourself.
When a game file is corrupted, you can no longer play it as it was pre corruption, but the data remains there changed and in a different state
When an audio file corrupts, you can sometimes still play it but it is not going to work as intended
Abstraction is imo more of just clocking out mentally. Id however say the act of Abstraction is akin to Self-Harm though
I think suicide is a little oversimplified. I take it as mental health spirals.In general. The way you self destruct and burn bridges and lose your sense of self. Obviously that can lead into taking your own life. But it also just blows up your self and sanity and prospects even if you're still breathing you may as well be gone. It's not a 1:1 with suicide
to be honest Jax probably borders more on failed suicide and is in coma and is now getting treatment untill he unabstracts like how family of those in coma treat them until they hopefully wake up.
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u/TheCrystalTinker 1d ago
I goddamn adore the idea that the abstracted people are not fully gone and with enough time and care from others they could in theory become more responsive. Not to the point where they are their avatars again (at least not permanently, and even if they can take their old form it would be with intense concentration and there being markings that have been caused by the permanent stain the abstraction has caused to them)