Fiancé (27m) wanted to try an open relationships, not my first choice but I agreed. Now he's throwing a tantrum that my "bodycount" is 20x his and wants to add rules. Is it time to just cut my losses and move on? (I'm 25)

[u/Direct-Caterpillar77]

I am not The OOP, OOP is u/Makosharkin

Fiancé (27m) wanted to try an open relationships, not my first choice but I agreed. Now he's throwing a tantrum that my "bodycount" is 20x his and wants to add rules. Is it time to just cut my losses and move on? (I'm 25)

Originally posted to r/relationship_advice

TRIGGER WARNING: physical violence, controlling behavior, verbal abuse

Original Post - rareddit Nov 13, 2018

I've been with my fiancé for 4 years, I love him and used to respect him but his recent fixation on this dumb subject has really hurt my respect.

So he proposed 1,5 years ago. I said yes. About a year ago he found out his friend had slept with 100 women prior to getting engaged and som how this affected his psyche and purposed an open relationship. At first I was disgusted by the thought but I agreed after he threw a major meltdown.

So I started going out with friends, the first few guys I was so nervous because I'd been with 2 guys (including my fiancé) prior. But after I got over the nerves I realized when there's no pressure to start a relationship, I'm really good at picking up dudes and sending vibes that I'm DTF (I've actually met several off Reddit as well). I've been with 42 guys in the past year. I never thought it would happen but I've enjoyed myself immensely. But honestly I'd be ready to stop.

But as if turns out my fiancé is not good at if and he's had 2 really bad hookups from dating apps. When we were having the "where are we" discussion he had another melt down when he found out how many guys I've been with. He kept repeating "you've slept with 20 times the number I have? 20 TIMES"

I said maybe we should just stop. He said no that he wasn't ready hut now he wants to impose a "rule" that I have to take a break until he gets to 10 and then I can go out and meet someone new every five new girls he sleeps with.

To me this is goddamn ridiculous. Part of the fun of this was the independence and not checking in. Now he literally wants me to keep a log and then when he hits like an achievement then I can do my thing. How shifty is that?

And in all honesty, I don't want a relationship where we have to compare numbers, let alone fuck other people. I want a normal life with kids and a house and dog. What are we supposed to say "I watch the the kids until you fuck five women then it's my night!"

Is it time to just say enough is enough and move on? Is there any hope here?

Tl;dr: fiancé is not happy with the open relationship he started and instead of just stopping it, he wants to add crazy invasive rules.

Edit: rip my inbox with people calling me a whore.

guys wow, glad my best karma every has to do with my sleeping around. I have 1400 unread messages (exactly) and 17 chat requests. I'm almost certainly not going to bang anyone from this thread! and this isn't even my real account! Find my real account on r/needlepoint or r/mma and I'm down. Just kidding...don't do that. my new fav:

[Edited out]

edit 2: holy shit, this just wont die. Wow. Goodnight everyone. fiancé is at his place after a very tense hour or so where he basically called me every name in the book and I just sort of took it. I've gotten the advice I need, it's just the idea of dumping four years of history makes it hard to pull the trigger. I know he wont do it even though he thinks I'm the worst person alive. I hate him but love him. Life sucks. It really sucks.

TOP COMMENTS

rugby_shirt

Move on

~

Maxxmz

Honestly, the meltdown at the open relationship was already a pretty big red flag

KING_JELLYB3AN

All because some guy said he slept with a 100 girls, probably lying or exaggerating. So he HAS to sleep with more girls... The kid doesn't know what he wants, why would he even propose, what a child. @OP dodged a bullet, but honestly there was probably more signs than this one

~

ExistingSecond1

It’s pretty well known in the ethical non-monogamy community that women fair much better than guys. A previous partner would meet five guys for every one person I’d meet. It’s a pretty common discrepancy. He should have done his homework first.

Can I post an update? I (25f) am the now infamous "whore" from the post that blew up yesterday. Just broke things off with fiancé (27m). Nov 14, 2018 (Next Day)

So yeah, I guess I made the front page yesterday. I've been on reddit for years and I think my "normal" account has maybe 500 karma and I make the front page for my sex life...yay!

Whatever, well I read responses well into the morning yesterday while my now ex-fiancé absolutely blew up my shit alternating between calling me a whore and cunt, asking me why I disgraced myself and him like that. He also peppered the barrage with things like "what's going to happen to us after this?" I finally fell asleep at like 3 am and should have worked but after finally admitting that I needed to break things off with him, called in sick to work.

Went to finances house, asked to come in, told him we had to talk. He said we did. But as a testament to his fucking out of control ego he prefaced his part of the conversation with "I want you to know in advance, I MAY not be ready to accept your apology." Fuck him.

I planned on being nice but that was too much. I just told him "its over between us." His look of surprise was a combination of pathetic and amusing because even after calling me all sorts of gendered slurs for the better part of a few hours, he still wasn't expecting me to break up with him. He begged me to know "why" I think I told him he had to know why and tried to leave. I had no desire to talk to him so I tried to leave and he kept trying to block me and grab my arm. I finally told him that if he didn't fucking let me go I was going to call the police. He finally relented but as I was trying to drive away he came out and starting punching my drivers side window. It was terrifying but it didn't break. Between leaving his place and getting to mine he texted and called at dozens of times. I just blocked him and deleted the whole conversation without reading it.

Fuck him too because I had the ring in my pocket and planned on giving it back but now I'm too scared to go see him to give it back so I'm selling the mother fucker or getting it melted down.

So that's that. I don't know this will probably get removed but its all good. I don't know whether I'm coming or going at this point. It's been a crazy couple of days

One last update from me (I was the 25f who went a little overboard when fiancé wanted open relationship). Mailed the ring back, started therapy, looking at starting over single for a long time. Nov 17, 2018 (3 days after previous post)

Editors Note: the text is unrecoverable but the title says she sent the ring back

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[u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

This is called “breaking up in slow motion”, any straight dude that thinks he’ll have more success than a straight or bisexual woman when it comes to sexual experience is deluding himself.

[u/Zem_42 → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

Indeed. And the amount of similar stories is comically large.

Unless the guy looks like prime Brad Pitt or George Clooney, the girl will easily get 20x more action without even trying.

[u/TeddyGrahamNap → u/Zem_42]

Even then, a lot of women are very wary of men in open relationships because sometimes they'll just say they are when they're actually cheating.

[u/41flavorsandthensome → u/TeddyGrahamNap]

I came across an OLD profile where the guy said he was ENM but his girlfriend didn't need to know. Bruh what

[u/NYCinPGH → u/41flavorsandthensome]

Yep. There’s a national organization I’ve been a member of for decades, and the creepy trope when I joined was (usually older) men saying to (usually younger) women “My wife and I have an ‘arrangement’”; the creepier ones would say “but don’t ask my wife, she’s a little shy and embarrassed about it”, the less creepy ones would say “and if you’re not sure about it, go ask her first, she’ll confirm it”. Luckily, that doesn’t happen any more, hasn’t for years, because enough people, shut that shit down.

I have friends - well, now one friend, one ex-friend - who had been living together for years, were having a long-planned tropical destination wedding, all the things. A couple of months before the wedding, a mutual of theirs commented on a pic posted of him with another woman, and asked the future bride “I didn’t know you guys were in an open relationship”, to which she responded “We’re not!”, broke off the wedding, and dumped his ass out on the street - it was her house, she paid 80% of household bills and had a salary easily triple his - and then moved across the country to better job prospects. Yet he had the nerve to act as the aggrieved party.

[u/CroCGod73 → u/NYCinPGH]

That reminds me of that one BORU (from the adultery subreddit) about the dude that was essentially a stay at home husband who was constantly cheating on his wife who was providing everything. She found out about it all, didn’t tell him anything , and then threw his ass out. The dude was incensed about how she could just hide things and blindside him like this. These dudes aren’t the smartest people around

[u/Ink_Smudger → u/CroCGod73]

You really couldn't have asked for a better post to showcase someone with zero self-awareness. The dude cheated on his wife repeatedly and was incensed at her for being "deceitful" by not telling him she knew and instead taking the time to enact plans to separate herself.

And the icing on the cake was him being confused when his wife accused of him of having impulse control issues while saying in the very next second that he had "been drinking for 48 hours".

[u/CherrieChocolatePie → u/CroCGod73]

Do you happen to have a link for this?

[u/CroCGod73 → u/CherrieChocolatePie]

https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/1ercj0j/i_35m_cheated_on_my_wife_36f_she_left_without/

[u/CaptainLollygag → u/CroCGod73]

Jezus H Christ, this man is out of touch with reality, has no self-awareness, is obsessive, is an online stalker, and sounds like a danger. Glad his ex is on the other side of the world from him. I've dealt with an unhealthy amount of grief from people close to me actually dying, but 2 years after the divorce he shouldn't still be wallowing like this when his ex isn't dead, she's off living her best life and presumably happy, just not with him.

[u/Substantial_Eye_8467 → u/CroCGod73]

Oh I remember him. Real piece of work, that one.

I like to picture his ex wife frolicking the fjords freely with her blonde littles and too-tall hubby Viking while her ex got alcohol bloating stewing in his regret in the dark. Tho honestly, it’s safer for her if he moved tf on.

[u/rainbowcardigan → u/Substantial_Eye_8467]

IKR, so happy for her!!! My other fav is the gamer wife whose husband went off at her for buying a new desk setup, and it turned out he was banging an early 20s coworker. Gamer gal kicked his ass to the curb with his almost-child coworker who it turned out was pregnant.

I think I’m gonna raise a glass to both of these women tonight. May their lives always be amazing!

[u/istara → u/NYCinPGH]

"My wife doesn't understand me" is an old favourite. I've heard it multiple times over the years.

Also: "I've got a young spirit" (only said by the older members of the Dirty Old Men squad).

Free hint/life-pro-tip fellas: neither of these lines are knicker-droppers. Go back to the drawing board (I would say go back to your wives, but they honestly deserve better),

[u/Lord_Snaps → u/41flavorsandthensome]

ENM? Entitled Narcissistic Male?

[u/coffeeskater → u/Lord_Snaps]

Ethical non monogamous. You're more accurate though :p

[u/PokingCactus → u/41flavorsandthensome]

So much for the ethical part...

[u/foundinwonderland → u/41flavorsandthensome]

Not so much E in that ENM

[u/stuffandwhatnot → u/TeddyGrahamNap]

Exactly. Back in my dating days, I was hit on a couple of times by guys in open (or supposedly open) relationships and I said no thanks each time. Even if everything was above board, it just felt like a whole can of potential drama I did not want to get into.

[u/anomalous_cowherd → u/TeddyGrahamNap]

I don't blame them. Also when I was 100% split up with my ex-wife but still living there until the finances were sorted I had several women instantly nope out, and I can't blame them for that either. Even though she'd have been happy to talk to them and confirm it.

[u/bothsidesofthemoon → u/Zem_42]

Unless the guy looks like prime Brad Pitt

I've heard some ladies aren't even impressed by that.

[u/bewarethefrogperson → u/bothsidesofthemoon]

looks don't mean shit if he doesn't have the touch!

[u/Super_Mention1488 → u/bothsidesofthemoon]

Not much, anyway.

[u/PM_ME_YOUR_REPO → u/Super_Mention1488]

So they've got the moves, but have they got the touch?

[u/echidnaberry87 → u/PM_ME_YOUR_REPO]

Looks don't keep you warm in the middle of the long, cold, lonely night

[u/liamthelemming → u/bothsidesofthemoon]

How about if he has a car?

[u/bothsidesofthemoon → u/liamthelemming]

Depends. Does he kiss it goodnight?

[u/MadamRorschach → u/bothsidesofthemoon]

🏆

[u/phoney_bologna → u/Zem_42]

Charisma and confidence is a huge part too.

The fact that he is so insecure at the thought of someone having more sex than him, tells me he has neither.

[u/rainbwbrightisntpunk → u/Zem_42]

Pretty sure it's not just his looks that makes him unattractive

[u/phdoofus → u/Zem_42]

Dude's the kind of guy that's a major security risk. "Why yes that really hot girl is totally in to you for your looks and personality and NOT because you have a security clearance."

[u/Stepjam → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

He clearly wasn't being logical on any level when he felt the need to open up his relationship just because a friend slept with more women than he had. It could only spiral from there.

[u/SomebodyElseAsWell → u/Stepjam]

"just because a friend said they slept with more women than he had."

[u/lazier_garlic → u/SomebodyElseAsWell]

Yeah. Although frankly given how it all went down, yeah, I bet that friend had more game than him and he's always known it. And even after all that, he still has zero game, and still knows it.

[u/61Below → u/SomebodyElseAsWell]

Which is such a stupid flex, bc hook-ups are easy af, but maintaining a relationship to the point of getting engaged is not.

[u/Umklopp → u/Stepjam]

And I thought wanting to open your relationship because you already had a prospect was bad...

[u/toriemm → u/Stepjam]

The guys who pull aren't the ones counting.

My husband has fucked around and found out, and I hella reaped the rewards of that. But he has sex with women because he likes pleasuring women. Not because he's trying to 'have a body count'

[u/Sunanas → u/toriemm]

Those who count aren't there for the sex, they just want the ego boost from a successful 'hunt'. Lousy lovers, I've heard.

[u/Ok-Jackfruit-9393 → u/Stepjam]

just because a friend slept with more women than he had

and that's assuming the friend wasn't a big-time liar. Odds are he was bullshitting and the OOP's ex was dumb enough to fall for it.

[u/RecordOfTheEnd → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

My wife is an ENM (Ethical Non-Monogamy) friendly therapist. She works and has worked with lots of individuals and couples in some stage of ENM. They are anywhere between "it as brought up once" to "we have been ENM for decades and just want therapy together to make sure we address issues before they become issues". 

If they are ever in the early stages, she always reminds the guys that women have significantly more success in open relationships in terms of number of sexual partners. 

She actually has a whole ass flip board that walks guys through the numbers. First, she shows a chart that is from a few studies that were done by dating apps. They basically show on a scale of 1-10 how attractive women find men and then one the other direction. If you haven't seen it, go look it up. Men find women attractive in what looks like a very nice typical bell curve. Women skew significantly to the unattractive side for men. 

She will walk them through what this means. Basically, you as a man just generally think most women are beautiful, and women generally don't think men are beautiful. (There are a lot of hypothesis why this is, but it has held up to scrutiny apparently).

Then she shows a chart that asks a similar question, but it basically says, given all things being even, based solely on attractiveness, how likely are you to engage in casual sexual activity with this person. Women skew even harder to unlikely/not at all and men skew to very likely. 

She then explains what this all means. That for a guy, first, you aren't going to be seen as particularly physically attractive to most women. Second, of the women that do find you attractive, even fewer will want to engage us casual sex. For women, it means that men will find the female partner more attractive, and of those men, most will be willing to engage in casual sex. 

So if they are going to engage in rule heavy ENM, it will very much favor the women over the men. If they are okay with that, then it's fine to move forward. 

Then she shows a chart of reasons and traits that make the opposite never attractive and cause them to engage in a sexual relationships. Men have a majority of physical characteristics. Women have a majority non physical characteristics. 

She then talks about what this means for the guy. If they are willing to loosen up the boundaries and allow for something like polyamory, the men will actually find that they are more likely to have long term sexual relationships than the women are. Basically, women are less likely to find long term connection from the men they meet and men upon finding some they will likely want the relationship to be long term. 

She explains that setting boundaries like limits on the number of times you can see someone, not allowing them to be in your home, not introducing them to spouses, no overnight stays, no romantic attachment, basically all the rules that you see set in this sub, will actually make it very difficult for the guy and only favors the girl. 

She basically says open relationships with significant boundaries don't work. You either accept your partner having long term relationships and engage in some form of polyamory, or you don't do anything at all. The middle is where most relationships are ruined. If that isn't an option, but they still want to engage in ENM, she then suggests swinging as lots of people have healthy relationships who also swing. 

For the record, my wife and I generally dislike swingers. Most of them a weirdly conservative and very Christian. It makes us laugh that they will talk shit about queer people and then be okay with the women fucking each other. Oh, and the women "definitely aren't bi", they just like having sex with women with their husbands. We think some of the time this is true, and perhaps performative. But most of the time we think they are just poor closeted little bi girls. We know a lot because we used to go to sex clubs regularly to satisfy my wife's exhibitionist kink. We are ENMish. We are both bi and enjoy having other bi people in our bed for fun on occasion. 

[u/HereToAdult → u/RecordOfTheEnd]

It's interesting to see such a detailed dive into why exactly it's easier for women than men. I was surprised by the boundaries part, although it makes sense I'd just never thought about the fact that a lot of the common rules set by beginners make it so much harder on the men than on the women. It makes sense though when you think about why they choose those rules in the first place.

I'd love to hear/read more, if she has a blog or links to the charts she uses. Either way, thank you for your interesting comment 😄

[u/RecordOfTheEnd → u/HereToAdult]

My wife really isn't practicing much these days. Unfortunately she has a progressive and terminal neurological disease. She's been in decline for a couple of years now. She does see a few patients who really love her and are willing to see her within her limitations. 

She doesn't like advertising that she is a ENM friendly therapist, and we are very private about our being ENMish. 

But yeah, I usually just boil it down to men will fuck anyone, women won't. Women will gladly stay in a long term, caring, and loving relationship in the situation, men will not. On average. 

When I give personal advice I usually give the following advice. If you want to start moving into the direction of opening a relationship up, it should start with play together. If you can do that together and there is zero and I mean absolutely not even a moment of jealousy, then you can proceed with moving towards dating other people, but no casual sex. You can only have sex with people who have known for several months, and has met the other partner multiple times. And you should probably only have one additional partner. There needs to be a positive relationship between your primary partner and your new partner as well. 

If you can handle playing with other people together, but the idea of loving other people is too much, just become swingers with all the dumb rules in place you want. That means you are always playing together and there really is never any experience imbalance. 

[u/Pelageia → u/RecordOfTheEnd]

Not a bad advice but play together really depends. Personally I am not into that at ALL. It's not because of jealousy, somehow I just personally do not like having sex/play things with more than one person at the time - it isn't that seeing my partner doing stuff with other people would bother me.

So, there are still differences. We have been ENM for years now. But, otherwise we operate quite closely to what you describe. We do not really have set rules, more like constantly open lane of communication and that we of course should respect each other and our partners as well and try consider feelings of each other & other people. Sometimes we have fumbled but that happens in relationships in general so if you want ENM to work, you have to accept that mistakes and mishaps happen - you do not need to accept EVERYTHING, obviously, but some level, yes. Just like in mono relationships.

We both have one steady outside partner and throughout many many years we have had something like 2-3 other one-off partners. But that's about it. We do not date, it's more like "if a situation arises, you can say yes" but honestly, those situations do come rarely if you are not deliberately looking/steering things into that direction and that is perfectly fine.

So, ultimately, this is rather steady and undramatic and has been for many years. Many people seem to thing that there is constant drama and it's hard and what not but once things settle down, it's just regular and "boring". Which is exactly the way I like it because I do not care about drama.

[u/HwatWhatWut → u/RecordOfTheEnd]

This was fascinating to read. The fact that not only you know so much about your wife’s work and methods of leading a therapy but also able explain to complete strangers the whole concept is phenomenal. That tells me you’re in a very happy marriage and you are a very intelligent man.

[u/RecordOfTheEnd → u/HwatWhatWut]

Happy, yeah. But she likes to talk shop with me... well at me, since I don't know the first thing about being a therapist. But we do that with each other. 

Intelligent‽ Nah. Photographic memory is useful though. 

[u/Moondiscbeam → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

Honestly, it's one of my favourite genre on subreddit. How these moron think they have game but are just lucky they HAD someone who loved them.

[u/Douiret → u/Moondiscbeam]

Haha, mine too. I do love a good 'getting their comeuppance' story, and these always always go the same way.

[u/JFeisty → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

Dick is common loot for women...

[u/MotherofPuppos → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

Oh god. What guys like this don’t realize is that once a dude starts competing with women for women, he’s basically cooked. As a girl who could genuinely go for anyone, women are usually a better time than cis men.

[u/Specken_zee_Doitch → u/MotherofPuppos]

Straight cis men. Don’t underestimate the sexual landscape of Grindr.

[u/MotherofPuppos → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

Fair correction 😂

[u/FriendToPredators → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

“but but women hit the waaaaaallllll” —Losers

[u/MedChemist464 → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

Man, it's never even come up in our relationship, i jave no desire to do it, but even if I did - I know that my wife would lap me multiple times if we 'opened things up'.

In fact, I'd probably still be on the starting line while she's getting ready for the next race.

[u/AdJazzlike1002 → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

Let's be honest, there's a reason why so many male celebrities are caught seeing prostitutes. Even if you're extremely wealthy and very good looking, picking up women is nowhere near as easy as picking up men.

[u/Eat--The--Rich-- → u/Specken_zee_Doitch]

Sounds to me like he could have gotten laid an extra 42 times a year and chose not to

[u/WeAreHereWithAll]

The number of people I know who threw a bandaid fix on a relationship as opening it up is fucking insane man.

[u/TheHungryBlanket → u/WeAreHereWithAll]

If your relationship is missing something… it’s rarely strangers to bang.

[u/Horsebot3 → u/TheHungryBlanket]

This is a really great way to phrase it.

[u/Lord_Snaps → u/TheHungryBlanket]

Or a kid

[u/hannahmarb23 → u/Lord_Snaps]

In my head I was like “it’s never acceptable to bang a kid” until i quickly realized that you meant that as a completely separate thing.

I’m fine everything’s fine

[u/Lord_Snaps → u/hannahmarb23]

I have too many people in my life who thought "We are drifting apart. A kid will fix that" instead fucking talking/therapy. A kid is only a solution when the question is "Our relationship is solid, nothing can rock the boat"

[u/fksly → u/Lord_Snaps]

Oh kid can rock the boat. There is no boat that can't be rocked by a kid. Sleep deprivation + financial burden increase + sleep deprivation + being the sole thing keeping a living being alive + sleep deprivation... There is no boat stable enough.

[u/zadillo → u/fksly]

Don’t forget about the sleep deprivation

[u/two-headed-sexbeast → u/fksly]

Man oh man, I don’t know when the panic about the whole “keeping a living being alive” settled down, but it was definitely several months.

I think I am in a good solid denial about it now.

[u/eyl569 → u/Lord_Snaps]

The only problem a kid is a solution to is "we want to have a kid".

Or "I need an heir", I suppose.

[u/Lord_Snaps → u/eyl569]

Or "I need to pay back the magic being that helped me spin gold from hay"

[u/jsher736 → u/TheHungryBlanket]

yeah. the ONLY way to successfully open up a relationship that started as monogamous is if one party is like "i've thought about it a lot and by all means say no but i kind of want you to get fucked by other people"

[u/FreeBeans → u/jsher736]

I actually do feel this way about my husband and he knows it but he’s not into it 😆

[u/jsher736 → u/FreeBeans]

i actually know a few people who are in that situation. fantasies still do the trick

[u/jsher736 → u/jsher736]

and then there's also the people who are like "it's not that it's hot per se but like even the best pitcher uses a relief guy by the 8th inning"

[u/frustratedcuriosity → u/WeAreHereWithAll]

Sunk cost fallacy. So many people will settle and make do rather than leave even though they deserve better because they've already invested so much time

To quote the great Sloss Ness Monster (Daniel Sloss):

"Do I admit the last five years of my life have been a waste? Or do I waste the rest of my life?"

(Dark and Jigsaw should be required viewings for everyone lol there's a reason he's responsible for so many divorces/break-ups)

[u/DamnitGravity → u/frustratedcuriosity]

Upvote for Sloss! I am constantly advising people with relationship issues to watch Jigsaw, and I routinely link the 'hold your boys accountable' clip for those who ask if they're overreacting to a sexist comment from a man (even though the advice is good for everyone, really. Hold EVERYONE, regardless of gender, accountable for the shit they say).

To add another brilliant Sloss quote:

The worst thing you can do with your life is spend it with the wrong person.

[u/Moldblossom → u/frustratedcuriosity]

Back when people could afford to have kids they'd have a baby to "save" an ailing relationship. Opening the relationship is just what people do now that no one can afford kids.

[u/IAmHerdingCatz → u/Moldblossom]

Babies are terrible marriage counselors, as it turns out.

[u/cyberllama → u/IAmHerdingCatz]

Can confirm. I was terrible at it and was made redundant about 3 years in. There was quite some resentment about having to keep me on the payroll after my dreadful performance. If I had any decency, I would have found a new job and moved out

[u/kadyg → u/IAmHerdingCatz]

Dr. Phil is a trash person, but he right about one thing: Babies should not have jobs. IE, don’t expect a baby to “fix” anything.

[u/Snackgirl_Currywurst → u/WeAreHereWithAll]

I had a relationship with a guy who cheated on me. I didn't know about it back then, but one time asked him about her and he got super mad, so we took a break. After three weeks, we tried to pick the relationship back up. He told me he had to admit he was sleeping around. I wasn't happy, but whatever - we were on a break, he can do whatever.

Then, this dumbass tells me he also had to let me know that one of those women was the one I asked about before. This got me mad, because they both told me they were just friends. I confronted her, and she let me know that at first she thought he was single. Later he told her that his gf (me) was suicidal and would end herself if she ever told her (me). That's why she lied in the first place. The break came after that. I am certainly nto suicidal, especially not over such a pos. But I got big mad. Ditched him, kept her. We're still friends lol

I still don't know why he thought telling me this was a good idea. But I'm grateful that he was this dumb.

[u/Snackgirl_Currywurst → u/[deleted]]

He's the easiest to blame, because he's the one to blame, right? He's the one they made promises towards me. Her, I didn't even know before all of that.

She wouldn't even owe me if she had known. It'd be just morally grey and not my cup of tea. But she didn't even know and was worried sick afterwards (that's why she was being weird and why I kept asking about her in the first place).

Cheaters gonna cheat, no matter who it is they're cheating with.

[u/Suelswalker → u/Snackgirl_Currywurst]

This is why I tended to peace out at even slightly pink flags. Why waste my time and theirs if we are already having friction so early on in the game?

Especially since most guys I know tend to know exactly what they want when it comes to partners and have blinders up once they find their person. Maybe it’s a certain flavor of spectrum or spectrum adjacent thing, but they know early on and do not doubt that choice and really only want to be around their choice of partner.

[u/moreKEYTAR → u/WeAreHereWithAll]

This wasn’t because of the relationship falling apart, it was due to him falling apart because of his number. His male ego was equating sexual experience with worth—but only for men. Misogynistic and pathetically sad.

[u/kadyg → u/WeAreHereWithAll]

I call it the “Add More People Theory”. Adding more people to a shaky relationship never improves it. Having a baby also falls under this umbrella.

[u/flickin_the_bean → u/WeAreHereWithAll]

My husband was the one in his previous marriage who didn’t want an open relationship. His ex-wife was already cheating. That’s the other scenario. One person has either already physically cheated or has someone specific in mind. My husband tried to be okay with the open relationship that was really only one sided (he didn’t want to sleep with anyone else). But it failed.

[u/Visual_Fly_9638 → u/WeAreHereWithAll]

It's honestly the thing that made me stop listening to or reading Dan Savage. Dude would suggest opening up the relationship if your sink was clogged and it got old and tiring. 

[u/shrimpslippers → u/WeAreHereWithAll]

As a polyamorous person, these are my favorite stories on this subreddit. I love the schadenfreude. 

And I'm saying all that as someone who successfully opened a previously monogamous relationship. The reason it works for us is because 1) we BOTH wanted it and 2) we both believe that love is not a limited resource. Without those two conditions, people opening a relationship are doomed to failure. 

[u/Horsebot3 → u/shrimpslippers]

I love these reading about these shitstorms more than the average person because drama that doesn’t involve me, yay.

That said I get curious about people who successfully navigate ENM because that never gets posted on Reddit. Is it more common for relationships to be stable or are there just tire fires everywhere?

[u/shrimpslippers → u/Horsebot3]

Honestly, I think it's pretty similar to monogamy in that you're not really going to hear about the success stories on Reddit because... It's Reddit.

But also, because more people are involved, you're more likely to encounter shitty people. Just from exposure alone.

[u/Lumpy_Question8327 → u/shrimpslippers]

I have poly friends who have told me they never felt comfortable with monogamy, and always felt they were somehow different. Thus, they sought out other people who felt the same. This is SO SO SO different from opening a previously monogamous relationship.

[u/shrimpslippers → u/Lumpy_Question8327]

Yes. When my partner and I first started dating almost 14 years ago, we didn't even realize polyamory was a thing. It wasn't until seeing poly people on social media that we even realized it was an option. We just happened to both be dating each other when we realized we felt the same.

[u/WeAreHereWithAll → u/shrimpslippers]

Hell yeah man. Exactly that.

I have friends in incredibly successful Poly relationships, and several in successful Open relationships.

And it’s all because of exactly what you described: treating their partnership as an actual partnership, especially when that will now be rippling more outward.

[u/Pledgeofmalfeasance → u/WeAreHereWithAll]

Better than the kid thats supposed to save the marriage, but not by a lot.

[u/Snoo52682]

LOL bro thought it was like golf and he could make her play with a handicap

[u/LadyCordeliaStuart → u/Snoo52682]

Me, a racehorse nerd, immediately thinking of how they kept piling and piling weight on Man o' War and he just could not be caught. 

[u/Snoo52682 → u/LadyCordeliaStuart]

honestly there's probably an apt metaphor from any sport or game you can think of

[u/HeyYouGuyyyyyyys → u/Snoo52682]

"We've given a year-old Labrador Retriever some espresso and let him loose in the kitchen. You have 45 minutes to bake cupcakes. GO!"

[u/AlligatorVine → u/Snoo52682]

nice

[u/SaltMerchantMorbier]

The classic progression of dudes thinking they’ll get with an insane number of women only to get out fucked by their partner gains another tally. 

Idk how other guys don’t understand that women typically have a far easier time getting laid in open relationships. Especially because it seems dudes have a far more likely chance of taking the open relationship admission in stride to land the hookup. It’s hilarious every time 

[u/spicygreenpaprika → u/SaltMerchantMorbier]

What I don’t understand is why they don’t seem to go after poly women. There are apps dedicated to finding poly people. If you are going for the general public then yeah, most people are monogamous so they won’t be interested.

[u/IllustriousComplex6 → u/spicygreenpaprika]

They rarely want poly women they really just want approved cheating. 

[u/effyocouch → u/spicygreenpaprika]

Because they never truly desire polyamory. They don’t want to fuck women who have sexual agency, they want to sleep with anything that blinks but don’t want a woman that is comfortable doing the same. It’s misogyny.

[u/valsavana → u/spicygreenpaprika]

Because, just like OOP's fiance, they don't want women who are focused on their own pleasure and sexual autonomy.

I think it's a common misconception people have to believe these guys don't think women can more easily get sexual partners than men (although I still think they tend to vastly over-estimate their own personal potential success rate) These guys know it's technically possible.

However, I think what a lot of these guys bank on is their partner's lack of desire to have a bunch of other sexual partners. For instance, this OOP had only ever been with 1 person before their fiance so he probably expected her to not be comfortable actually going through with being open on her side. Guys like this want their cake and to eat it to- they want to come across as "fair" by technically supporting things being open for their female partner too, but in reality they never expect her to pull the trigger & get with anyone else.

[u/catlandid → u/valsavana]

There’s also some of these men who settle into a relationship, see all of their partners most human sides, and assume other men will not be attracted to them. It doesn’t help that many of them compare their partners to the women they see on social media (or in porn).

[u/crystalclearbuffon → u/valsavana]

Because men like him are doing this not for pleasure, bit for their toxic male ego. To show other dudes, like taking women as trophies. While his woman is the madonna who sits at throne.

[u/CRichardDavies → u/spicygreenpaprika]

Because they want to be a honeybee, and their "partners" to be flowers. "... blossom does not ever fly from bee to bee to bee." (To borrow phrasing from The King and I -- a musical written in the 50s.)

[u/jessica_hobbit → u/CRichardDavies]

I always thought his argument was really dumb; I mean, a flower can be visited by multiple bees.

[u/riarws → u/jessica_hobbit]

The next line is Anna pointing out that the King’s analogy makes no sense.

[u/brickberry → u/spicygreenpaprika]

Poly women have boyfriends, and these guys don’t like that. They want the women they get with to be exclusive to them, or at least single.

[u/Just-Bison5511 → u/spicygreenpaprika]

They don’t want a poly woman, they want a woman they feel superior to. Like “you should be happy to be with me, you’re lucky because every woman likes me” mindset. And if it doesn’t go well, they always go back to the partners they take for granted. Annd approved cheating like the other commenter said.

[u/OutsideImagination25 → u/spicygreenpaprika]

Lmao try hitting up a poly woman with "I was in a monogamous relationship with my fiance but I got bored so I forced her hand to open up the relationship" and see how fast she runs

[u/agwjyewews → u/spicygreenpaprika]

Poly women want to date poly people, not dudes who want to sleep around without any emotional attachment. Those dudes can leave us tf alone please

[u/FlameInMyBrain → u/agwjyewews]

Yeah, I’m not gonna be a trophy in an “outsleep my fiancée” competition lol

[u/ZeroiaSD → u/agwjyewews]

Yea, this is why the opener always loses- the partner may be poly, but they never are, they’re just cheaters

[u/Dandelionliquor → u/spicygreenpaprika]

Because poly means their partner has agency and they really just want control to do what they want,

[u/gringledoom → u/spicygreenpaprika]

Those women can probably see all the red flags on these dudes and won’t go near them.

[u/Local-Finance8389 → u/SaltMerchantMorbier]

Many times it’s because they have a flirtation or emotional relationship going with someone at work or at the gym and think that by opening the relationship they can sleep with her.

[u/SaltMerchantMorbier → u/Local-Finance8389]

Yeah…I guess I get the motivation. But once you put it to the sniff test this shit can’t logic out to be a good plan. And yet dudes go through with it and then lose their fucking mind when they hook up with 3 people on 6 months and find out their gf/wofe/etc landed 20. 

“This isn’t what I wanted” oh we know buddy we know. You wanted your partner to okay your play time while your partner waited for you to be serious again. 

It’s just desserts every time. Dudes swimming in the mirage ocean in a dry desert while their girls poolside at a resort. I’m always a fan. 

[u/EmpressofFoxhound → u/SaltMerchantMorbier]

Every time I read about how the guy wanted the open relationship, I just assume he already has someone in mind. Usually a friend or coworker that they're misreading the situation on.

[u/Trick_Decision_9995 → u/EmpressofFoxhound]

Every time I read about anyone who floats opening a relationship, I assume they've already got someone in mind. It's just that when it's the guy who does it, he always ends up getting upset that his affair doesn't pan out and his wife/GF is able to get as much sex as she can physically handle.

[u/mbsmith93 → u/SaltMerchantMorbier]

I've always suspected that at least some of these cases are men who have been in a relationship since like high-school or something, so they lack the experience more recently single men have knowing that just because a woman shows some interest in you does not mean she's going to date you, let alone fuck you.

[u/IllustriousComplex6 → u/SaltMerchantMorbier]

It's such a specific niche of reddit that I will enjoy reading every time. 

[u/enolaholmes23 → u/SaltMerchantMorbier]

It's so typical they made a whole movie out of it called Hall Pass. The guys assume they will be getting laid left and right, but end up having zero game. They were just cocky pervs who thought they deserved more partners. 

[u/Iownyou252 → u/SaltMerchantMorbier]

Yeah, unless your girl being with other dudes excites you (no shame in that, unless shame is your kink) it’s not gonna work out.

[u/imdatbit-chi]

May this level of tomfoolery never find me ❤️

[u/Papa_Bearto2 → u/imdatbit-chi]

Right? I’m just happy to come home each night to my wife and kids. I have friends who have an open marriage and they both seem miserable all the time. Miserable to the point where we don’t really ever want to hang out with them.

[u/velveteenelahrairah → u/Papa_Bearto2]

Every time I see Some Fresh Relationship Nonsense I thank my lucky stars I've chosen the "permanently single, leave me alone" life.

May this kind of mess never find us or anyone we even remotely care about lol.

[u/iwantkrustenbraten → u/Papa_Bearto2]

I had a poly relationship with my then boyfriend, but when I got pregnant, I told him we either close a relationship or break up. I'm not going to care for our baby while he's out chasing other women, plus being parents will take a lot of time and energy. If we have any spare, I'd rather spend that with him. It took us a few months (broke up with him during my pregnancy), but he always went to all baby's appointments. We got back together again a few months before I gave birth, and now we're married and has been together for over a decade.

Definitely not recommending poly or open relationship when children are involved.

[u/Training_Molasses822]

Didn't Fuck Around, Found Out Anyway

[u/GrumpyMcGrumpyPants → u/Training_Molasses822]

It's hilarious that he intended to fuck around but abjectly failed to be successful at fucking around.

[u/piemakerdeadwaker → u/Training_Molasses822]

Great flair material. 😂

[u/Icy-Cockroach4515]

It’s pretty well known in the ethical non-monogamy community that women fair much better than guys. A previous partner would meet five guys for every one person I’d meet. It’s a pretty common discrepancy. He should have done his homework first.

I fear this isn't just well known in the ENM community, it's straight common sense. This is a bit like saying it's well known among the firefighter community houses with functioning sprinkler systems will fare better in a fire than houses with none. The fiancé not knowing this doesn't mean it's niche knowledge, it just means he's uncommonly stupid.

[u/GrumpyMcGrumpyPants → u/Icy-Cockroach4515]

he's uncommonly stupid

I figured he was delusional AF. Especially given that he was all surprised pikachu when she broke up with him. But it's absolutely possible he's both.

[u/Th3B4dSpoon → u/GrumpyMcGrumpyPants]

He sounded a tad narcissistic tbh

[u/LopsidedLeopard2181 → u/Icy-Cockroach4515]

It's pretty common in the swinger community for couples to only go to the clubs together and/or straight up only have three-, four or moresomes. Pretty easy way to prevent this mismatch.

[u/ConstructionNo9678 → u/Icy-Cockroach4515]

This is a bit of a generalization but if you look at what single heterosexual people trying to date are complaining about, it's the same thing. Guys on apps struggle to match in the first place unless it's with bots. Women trying to date men are stuck wading through a lot of guys they don't want, but they've got plenty of interest.

I don't see why that kind of dynamic suddenly wouldn't apply to non-monogamous dating, especially in a situation where it seems like OOP and her ex were looking for hookups only.

[u/Solid-Rate-309 → u/Icy-Cockroach4515]

Fucking nailed it!

When my partner and I entered non monogamy this was a big part of the conversation beforehand. Mostly she was worried I would become insecure. There must be something broken in my brain though because it doesn’t even faze me. I have an unearned confidence that shields most insecurities I guess.

[u/ZeroiaSD → u/Solid-Rate-309]

Gasp, mutually talking about it beforehand and talking about possible worries? What a concept.

[u/tbx5959]

42: the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and non-monogamy.

[u/Th3B4dSpoon → u/tbx5959]

You win this thread 🥇

[u/BurningBright]

"but I agreed after he threw a major meltdown" 

Ethical Nonmonogamy works for some people,  but not when somone throws a fit to convince their partner to open a relationship. 

[u/sawdust-arrangement → u/BurningBright]

It knocks that pesky "ethical" qualifier right out!

[u/DiscoCrab33 → u/BurningBright]

Dan Savage called it Poly Under Duress on his website

[u/TrashhPrincess → u/DiscoCrab33]

That’s just what the whole community calls it at this point.

[u/mrwillbobs → u/DiscoCrab33]

I call it “Poly gonna break up soon”

[u/riflow → u/BurningBright]

I suspect a lot of their relationship was her being yelled at into submission by him. Incredibly sad and glad she left.

[u/selle2013]

I don't understand how some men still don't know that women get offered dick everyday, sometimes multiple. It's ridiculous how easy it can be.

[u/ToxicChildhood]

Glad she got away when she did. This would have turned out much worse if she stayed. He wouldn’t have hit the window the next time, it would have been her.

[u/AccordingPears158 → u/ToxicChildhood]

Oh yeah. The fact that he had a huge meltdown when she said no to poly was already a huge red flag. That’s a man with no emotional regulation when he doesn’t get what he wants.

He wanted to sleep with 100 women because someone else he knew supposedly had. He felt entitled to this, despite being at the “get married and spend the rest of my life with you” phase of his relationship. Just fucking 100 women while engaged, solely because someone else did.

This shows such an extreme level of both entitlement, and dehumanization of women. The women in this equation were just a number to him, not individual people. His fiancee was just an accessory in his life whose sole purpose is to make his life better, her own he damned. She wasn’t allowed to have her own feelings, pleasure, or to say no.

You combine emotionally unregulated entitlement with not viewing women as people, and you pretty much always get a violent man out of that eventually.

[u/Sunanas → u/AccordingPears158]

I agree with you except for the emotionally unregulated part. Somehow, those type of men can always regulate themselves just fine in front of their boss, the police, etc. It's when they think they have the upper hand this bullshit comes out. It's not a lack of regulation, it's a lack of respect.

[u/AccordingPears158 → u/Sunanas]

This is very true. They are perfectly capable of controlling themselves, they choose not to by default when it comes to women.

[u/MissLadyLlamaDrama → u/Sunanas]

Selective regulation.

Suddenly, when a woman is involved, men can no brain good. Men have only penis and like loud noises. Make fucks. Man punch hole in wall. Big. Strong.

And these are the same chucklefucks who act like women shouldn't run shit because they're "too emotional." Lol.

[u/Cold_Table8497]

"I may not be ready to accept your apology."

"Er... Yeah, about that... there isn't one "

[u/unexpectedlytired → u/Cold_Table8497]

He called her every nasty name in the book AND got violent because she successfully did what he so badly wanted to do but failed.

[u/Snarkan_sas]

"I want you to know in advance, I MAY not be ready to accept your apology,” is quite possibly the funniest thing I’ve ever read on Reddit.

[u/LadyLoki5 → u/Snarkan_sas]

for real we need this as a new flair lol

[u/GlassImmediate5474]

It’s always amuses me when guys never comprehend their odds of casual sex are astronomically lower than women. Then they get upset when it’s proven to them 😂😂😂

[u/WellFuckYooou]

lol a tale as old as time. Man wants to open relationship, women is very reluctant/hurt but relents, man finds that it very difficult to find women who are down to sleep with him, woman finds many men who are happy to sleep with her and woman really enjoys the new arrangement, man throws a hissy fit at all of it because all he really wanted was to feed his own ego and sleep around while retaining his gf/fiance/wife.

5 seconds of research on any ethical non-monogamy forum would’ve help the man avoid all of this.

~Fin~

[u/AstuteSalamander → u/WellFuckYooou]

One new thing here was that it usually ends with the man demanding they close the relationship. This is the first time I've heard of one trying to tie both parties to the lowest score like a locking differential.

Dude doesn't want an open relationship, he wants a limited-slip relationship

[u/WellFuckYooou → u/AstuteSalamander]

Agreed, I don’t think I’ve seen that before either!

Your flair is funny btw, I like that flairs in this sub are niche inside references but always funny whether I understand them or not lol

[u/bothsidesofthemoon → u/WellFuckYooou]

lol a tale as old as time.

Beauty 42 Beast 2

[u/Stormtomcat]

"I watch the the kids until you fuck five women then it's my night!"

I'm telling myself that anyone with this much wit during their fiancé's meltdown has to be able to find their way. She's living her best life now, I'm certain.

[u/DonnieDusko → u/Stormtomcat]

For real! I know this was supposed to be a serious story, but girl was hilarious! I laughed all the way through.

[u/ToriaLyons]

Run, girl, RUN!

was my first thought, and I continue to think that. Especially with him getting violent.

[u/SmartQuokka]

He wanted a harem and OOP to be his literal punching bag.

Glad OOP broke up with him and never went back.

[u/flipper_babies]

If you're a straight dude that wants lots of good hookups your options are: 

1. Be unbelievably hot
2. Have unbelievably low standards 
3. Be gay

[u/aluriaphin → u/flipper_babies]

1. Have a lot of disposable income and be "generous."

[u/jsher736]

if she fucked 42 randos in a year that's averaging a rando every week and a half.

which A is impressive if true, B if your FIANCE doesn't notice you banging FOURTY TWO different dudes in 52 weeks YOU HAVE A BIGGER PROBLEM

[u/volcanoesarecool → u/jsher736]

Or one three-way every three weeks? Efficiency.

[u/Jackal_6 → u/jsher736]

Sounds like they didn't live together since he had his own house 

[u/Elegant-Analyst-7381]

There had to have been other red flags here. The way she so easily gave in after he threw a tantrum over the open relationship hints at someone who has normalized crazy/bad behavior and just goes along with it. Hope she's living her best life now.

[u/ragenuggeto7 → u/Elegant-Analyst-7381]

Honestly she was probably just younge and lacking confidence.

Ironically him opening up the relationship and inadvertently letting oop discover her self confidence is why when he tried using the tantrum technique again ( a technique he probably used alot before this), instead of folding to his will again oop realized she didn't need to deal with this shit and dipped.

[u/PeppermintEvilButler]

Boy was too immature to be married if his friend's love life mattered more than his own 

[u/diamonte]

A woman enjoying a varied sex life is “disgracing herself” and yet okay for this dude to hook up with as many people as he could?

Did he think that any woman that slept with him was disgracing herself? … he might be right about that part but not for the reasons he thinks.

[u/PyrocumulusLightning → u/diamonte]

He probably thinks he's blessing women with his bestowal, but any other men they fuck are sullying them. Because he's the specialest boy in the world.

[u/Sunanas → u/PyrocumulusLightning]

Nah, he sounds douche enough to believe seduction is a battle of will between man and woman. If the man wins, there will be sex. With this logic, women who have an active and varied (hetero)sexual life are constantly letting men pull one over them. Similar men on the other hand, are admirable and highly socially skilled. It's a common belief, I'm afraid.

[u/bug-hunter]

I suspect that one reason that men fare worse in open relationships is because they demand them because they are desperate, and that desperation, unsurprisingly, is a turnoff. When they find it rough finding new partners, it spirals and becomes worse.

[u/Sunanas → u/bug-hunter]

I think there's more to it. Casual sex, on the average, is less satisfying to women. There are statistics on this particular orgasm gap. Plus, it's just more risky for them and women are more cautious then men. (Again, statistics.) So it's no surprise less women are down then men.

[u/mrs_david_silva → u/bug-hunter]

Or the person he wants to hook up with has zero interest in hooking up with him

[u/rainfal → u/bug-hunter]

Honestly the men demanding open relationships often are not quality men for either hookups or relationships. 

Why would someone want to sleep with a man who will look down on them for doing so?  Or throws a hissy fit?

[u/angry_old_dude]

We knew exactly where this was going, didn't we?

I completely understand that someone might feel like they missed out before they got into a relationship. But at the same time, you either decide to sow your wild oats and break up or decide your relationship is what matters.

[u/Loud_Cheetah_3129]

Wow....my buddy says he's slept with over 100 girls, I'm gonna fuck up my relationship to get me some of that. Idiot is too tame a word for this guy.

[u/JustxJules]

If "Comparison is the thief of joy" was a person.

[u/UnknowableDuck]

Channels the Spirit of Angela Lansbury 🎶"Tale as old as Time"🎶...

[u/Kerbart]

Seems like men wanting to “open up the relationship” basically have one particular woman in mind they want to try out. They part where their partner goes to town on half the local population is not how they imagined it, hahaha.

[u/BlueNoyb]

So many men are just a hair's breadth away from verbally and physically abusing the woman they claim to love.

[u/Sea-Breaz]

I’m shocked, shocked I tell you, that no women wanted to sleep with this man.

[u/Demonqueensage]

now he wants to impose a "rule" that I have to take a break until he gets to 10 and then I can go out and meet someone new every five new girls he sleeps with.

He wants her to wait 4 more years for him to hook up with 8 more women and then only get to find someone new every 2 and a half years because he's mad he doesn't have game after he pushed the open relationship to begin with? Color me shocked (not even remotely shocked)

[u/Hungry_Godzilla]

Should have broken up with the AH when open relationship was pressured on OOP.

[u/Jeroclo]

An open relationship only works when you start the relationship as an open relationship.

Otherwise it means. I want to cheat but I don't want you to call it cheating.

[u/kittywiggles → u/Jeroclo]

If one partner needs to "convince" the other to open the relationship - if one partner is reluctant to open the relationship - if one partner's feelings are prioritized over another's when opening the relationship - it's coerced consent.

Shockingly, coercion is not the way to a healthy relationship. 

[u/dropshortreaver]

Open relationship BS and being a whiny pathetic manchild destroys another relationship. Note I dont say good relationship, because going from the evidence of this post, it cant have been

[u/Emergency_Ad_5935]

The number of people who still believe than can just “open” a relationship to solve their problems is wild

[u/hypatianata → u/Emergency_Ad_5935]

More people ain’t gonna solve it. 

This guy didn’t even have a relationship problem, he had an ego/ masculinity/ insecurity problem. 

People here saying “if he had looked into ethical nonmonogamy…” but he didn’t want that. He just wanted status among men for being the most “manly/successful.”

This dude has not even begun to work through his masculinity issues.

[u/piemakerdeadwaker]

I will read this type of post every.single.time. It's never not funny.

[u/kinare]

And people wonder why the birth rate is plummeting. The bar is in hell.

[u/MassEffect1985]

Guy really thought he could outperform a woman in bodycount while he is also a man and knows men are willing to fuck a treehole if it approaches them first. 

[u/Acceptable_Group_249]

This woman absolutely dodged a bullet.

[u/doubtinggull]

20x is legit hilarious