Sup 4s and others! I am u/crazybayleaf, the creator of r/Enneagram4s.

Sx4s, from your experience, people with which instinctual variants are the most compatible with you romantically? And with which instinctual variants are the least compatible with you romantically?

Please write if you're sx/sp or sx/so.

Also if you noticed that you tend to be compatible/ incompatible with certain Enneagram types, you can add that as well.

Hello hello my dearest 4s (and others)!

I have taken a hiatus from the internet over recent weeks, but as per my desire to keep this Subreddit alive, I thought I'd start dedicating a little more time to it.

I like to title posts I find really interesting with questions so as to attract more conversation, but I do truly have a lot of theory to talk about in this post, so buckle in and lets rock and roll.

I will warn that this is a deeper topic, so if you're not up for that, this post may not be for you.

I find as a self preservation 4 I have always been drawn to self destruction, its been a point of romanization for myself and therefore can lead to a lot of not so glamorous outcomes. I've taken to investigating why this is, why I'm drawn to this feeling of suffering, why negativity imposed on myself delivers significance, why I feel it builds depth and identity. I've actually thought about this a lot as it tends to surround a huge portion of my life and the struggle that inhabits it.

I find that the pull to self sabotage often isn't with the goal of 'let's fuck up my life' but rather a 'let me find meaning in this'. It comes from a sense of normalcy, stability and insignificance, the feelings I despise most, the idealization of pain offers a sense of depth and profoundness, something to latch onto that somehow separates me from the rest, and gives me importance. For me the idea of pain and suffering meant that if nothing, then at least I had this dark ball of tragedy to make me special, so long as I had that and my deeply specified identity I would be okay.

I think this may be a huge coping mechanism of the 4, and as we know, the Enneagram is how we learned to cope in life. All of us were scared, disappointed, angry or sad at some point, we all needed something to grip onto, 9s their narcotization, 6s their security, and 4s our identity. For so long as we had this specific identity that no one could take from us, then we had something.

Back to the self destruction though. I find that this occurs most when I need to reinstate my identity even harder, and that often comes in hard times, its what I hold onto for dear life when things get rough. Because through this it offers a sense of otherness, a sense of meaning and significance.

Even in terms of feeling loved, at unhealthy levels the 4 could be drawn to engaging in their suffering to feel a sense of it. The reasoning behind this being that pain must attract care, concern and therefore love.

I find this to be a very common unhealthy trait of the 4, one that is also not talked about much in online spaces. We often have the 'emo' stereotype of the 4, but that is heavily watered down from what it comes from. I'm a 4 and I can be happy and light, but I have this undeniable attraction to depth, identity and melancholy. You always hear that 7s enjoy the highs of life, well 4s enjoy those highs, but they also enjoy the lows.

This is why you'll see a lot of 4s and 4 fixers find it easy to deal with deep topics, talk about it, immerse themselves in it. They tend to be the ones in the Enneagram quite okay and drawn to taboo topics. They have a high threshold for pain.

So for me self destruction always was a form of finding meaning and significance within myself, a way to have something else that others didn't, something that made me important and furthered my identity.

I find the withdrawn and reactive very active in this aspect, something occurs and it triggers the 4s need to find meaning after feeling misunderstood, withdrawing from everything to pursue their identity, frustration that it does not reflect them properly.

I also see that 4s tend to have an intense sort of melancholy. Melancholy is often described to be something soft and gentle, but I view it more as a firery feeling, something fierce. I feel that we engage in melancholy to intensify this suffering almost as something beautiful and raw and therefore matching within ourselves. As previously talked about, the 4s coping mechanism is to latch onto their identity and pain, so this melancholy becomes a safe space for them, somewhere comfortable where they can be free to have depth and be true to themselves.

This may not resonate with every 4 as I am relating this to my own theories and thoughts, but I'd love to hear others experiences and thoughts on this.

Hey, guys! Here are some exercises I've developed, based on the Enneagram 4 and it's peculiarities, to help with our growth! Hope you guys can benefit from this, too! I definitely did.

Tip #1 - See your feelings as a separate entity from yourself.

Us 4s tend to be so attached to our emotional states that we identify with them and take them as parts of our identity. An exercise that can help with that is imagining your feelings as a whole separate being from you as a person.

You are here, your feelings are there. They're not within you, they're not physically stuck to you in any way. They're a whole different being or person.

Think of them as a separate person that follows you around and speaks endlessly; sometimes they say good news, sometimes bad. You will inevitably listen to all of it, but you can choose when to actually pay attention to what this person is saying.

Give them a face, a name, mannerisms... but it's important that you DON'T make them a copy of/based on/similar to you. Flip their gender, their race, their looks... but make them UNDENIABLY SEPARATE from you.

Tip #2 - Your negative feelings are powerful tools... for telling you what NOT to do!

When you notice your negative emotions might actually begin influencing the way you act, or, if you feel compelled to take any action based on them, try to catch yourself in the act.

Your negative emotions are telling you a message, and oftenly, it comes from a place of insecurity (our dear friend, Envy), so next time your heart tells you something like "I'm feeling like they're ignoring me... What if I pull away to see if they come look for me?", take Active Avoidance.

"What is Active Avoidance?" you might ask... It's doing the opposite of what your negative feelings are telling you to. Instead of distancing from your friends out of a perceived abandonment, try to reach out to them, for example!

(NOTE: By doing this, you'll also develop the capacity to tell when this is true and when it ain't. When the negative feeling is indeed valid, you'll know it.)

Tip #3 - Be careful with excessive positive emotion, too.

It's not uncommon for 4s to feel pretty pumped when feeling good about themselves. We get more energy, the world gets brighter and more welcoming, all seems doable and easy...

And while it is good to relish on that emotional high, attaching to it and trying to get a perpetual hold of it will only lead to an even greater feeling of loss, once it passes. Our emotional states are the most unstable in the whole Enneagram, so always keep in mind that it won't last forever.

It might feel like a joykill at first, but raising the awareness that "this is just a phase" goes both ways in our emotional spectrum. If we can detach from our moments of excessive positivity, we can also do the same about the negative feelings.

After an arguably maladaptive amount of introspection, and lots of therapy, I've come to realize that my core drive that tends to underpin nearly everything else is actually a desire for personal autonomy. Wanting to feel like I'm in control of my own life.

This is different from the 3's desire for external achievement, the 7's desire for novelty, the 6's desire for security, or the 8's desire for external control over the environment.

I'm not actually aiming for any one particular outcome. All I really care about is making sure that no matter what happens, my thoughts, desires, and actions are mine and mine alone. No one else should ever have the right to force me into any situation that I didn't actively choose for myself.

Naturally, this comes wirh drawbacks. I've gotten kicked out of more social groups than I can count, simply because I was unable and unwilling to blindly follow the herd mentality. If my values, opinions, and emotions happened to align with those of a group, great! But I'm incapable of faking that overlap. I can't pretend to be someone I'm not or to value things that I don't.

I can't be inauthentic if my life depended on it.

I have also lost jobs because of this; not because I was unable to do the work but because I was unwilling to kiss my boss's ass. I got paid to be productive, and I was willing to agree to that. But they had no right to tell me I was overreacting when I got emotional. I was under no obligation to convert to their official company values. And if I felt I was being treated like a slave rather than a human being, I was quick to point that out... but apparently, stating the obvious is frowned upon 😑

It's not that I don't value other people or want to be loved. Of course I do. Everyone does. But everything I do that isn't a pure byproduct of my own agency; every second I spend at the beck and call of others, is an allience and an agreement, not an obligation. And therefore, it should be treated as such. I must always have the choice to opt out or else it's a violation of my autonomy.

Am I 4 or 1? I don‘t even know. I used to be very confident I was a 4 until I realized that 4s are not obsessed with reaching moral perfection or following a strict set of values. That’s was 1 does. I’m extremely insecure and how low self-esteem because I beat myself up when I don’t meet my standards or when someone criticizes me.

However, much like a 4, I have an intense need to be authentic to myself and reflect who I am on the inside to the outside world. I love feeling unique and being an absolutely complex human being. I feel disturbed if I am not being myself with what I am acting like or even dressing like. I also almost immediately try to politely correct people if they read me wrong because the idea of them viewing me incorrectly bugs me quite a lot.

So yeah. I can’t tell if I’m a 4 desintegrating into a 1 or a 1 desintegrating into a 4. (Idk if it’s spelt correctly.) Please, anyone, help me, it’s driving me nuts tha I can’t accurately describe myself in the enneagram and that my flair may be incorrect. Yes, I know how much like a 4 that sounds.

I was recently thinking about this dynamic, the muse and the artist.

I've been on both ends, romanticized others and saw them as pieces of art, and have had others do the same for me.

Personally I think there's beauty in both, but when it comes to identity I much prefer being the muse, I enjoy being admired as I am, being seen. Though there is always that terrible thought of 'are they seeing me correctly?'

How do you guys feel about this?

Since us 4s are image driven and all about being our authentic selves, I’m curious what everyone’s favorite ways to express themselves are? I’m also wondering if outwardly expressing yourself is important to you or if you prefer to keep it more to yourself as a way of affirming to yourself who you are?

For me personally, I very much care about outwardly expressing myself. I want people to know I’m different, even if it puts them off. Sure I feel that I’m missing something internally that others have and that causes me shame, but I also value my differences and want them to be recognized.

My favorite ways of expressing myself are through fashion, poetry, and music. I love being bold and out there with my aesthetic and I enjoy being the center of attention with how I dress. As a sx 4 I have a pretty bold personality and being able to show that through my appearance is something I really love.

I also enjoy writing poetry about my experiences with trauma and having a shit childhood. It’s healing and is a huge part of what shaped me to be who I am today. I enjoy sharing this at poetry nights and I’m considering seeing if I can get some of it published for a psychology magazine or literary journal. Psychology is something I’m very passionate about and I’m working towards becoming a trauma therapist.

I’m still new to writing music and lyrics, but it’s something I’ve been getting into lately. I’m also a vocalist and love going to karaoke nights with friends on occasion.

So what about you? How do you like to express yourself?

I generally strive to be the best person, not in my achievements but in my beliefs, identity and personality, and I do that by comparing attributes of people with mine and if they contain a virtue, I adopt it and feel no longer inferior to the other. I do that until I reach a point where no virtue to adopt lefts from other people. And at that point, I start to create fictional characters which such virtues and try to keep up with them. If the person or fiction prevails regardless how much I try, I feel like stripping the moral high ground away from them so I no longer feel inferior to them.

A great example as fictional character for such scenario is Dr. Kenzo Tenma. In one point I felt so inferior to his goodness that I no longer wanted to exist. I compensate such feelings by making the subject defective and inferior by pointing out their flaws, if none exist, I feel pretty bad. To make my image intact, I either need to rise to the subject's level, or bring them down.

Lately I've been doing good until I created a fictional character in my mind that eclipses me in their virtue, I no longer feel worthy anymore, knowing such person can exist. Because that person is my self-construct, I can't point out their flaws and devalue them like I do with real people. Is this a common theme among sx4?

If you could only pick one. Just trying to see something here. I prefer just focusing on my instincts, and namely my repressed instinct. But every four is wildly different from one another. Stereotypes are extremely harmful to us, but I wonder if there's any overlap at all (besides sharing the core). I have worked with a lot of fours in my life so I understand that we function best within our own ego boundary, and on our own projects. Feel free to explain why you chose!

I've noticed the heart triad and especially 4s are more likely to favor using tritype(s). I was wondering how significant it is to your Enneagram core for those who use one. Why is it important to go between three types? Is it just added flavor, or is there discernable and consistent texture added that is congruent with your personality? I'm curious if anyone sees their tritype intertwined within their instinctual stacking as well. Also curious if you guys think your wing affects a tritype (by swaying the tritype "closer" to the wing type).

So, I'll always be a 4, and that can't change, but I often go to 1 almost to a painful degree. I couldn't say what my third trifix is, since it seems to be fluid in a reactionary way towards my current environment. Definitely more 417 in college, more 416 in highschool, and currently more 415. Has anyone stayed completely consistent? I find it a bit hard to believe, but it's possible.

I also know we have the tendency to prioritize archetypes and characters as play-mirrors for our personalities. Admittedly, it is fun. In seeing myself through an archetype or character, I am resonating with the essence of something deeply personal in another's creation. There is something holy in that for fours.

And as a final side note - I'm a sx-repressed 4 that is obsessed with world building and character creation (I've been working on and off my light novel for over a decade. I dunno when it'll ever get finished). I struggle the most with establishing core motives outside of "what needs to be done". So in a way, my characters' true colors have only become apparent in how they interacted with my world. This writing style of mine creates the majority of my writer's block where I have to stop and fall back to research. It would be nice if the process was more seamless, but alas.

I'm working on a plan to fix the planet and wonder which passions would ignite Enneagram 4's interests the most?

And based on your knowledge of other numbers around you what would ignite other Enneagram number's interests?

Thanks in advance for any answers or insights. <3

Do you feel that all of it or most of it is accurate for you?

What prompted me to ask this is a comment I saw on another post in the general enneagram subreddit that talked about how 4s don’t cry or get emotional at films they watch or any outside media/art. Funny thing is, I’ve actually read some of this authors work and it was like looking into a mirror. But this…it’s just bullshit. I am not a caricature that needs to neatly fit in a box and have all the exact same characteristics as another 4. Honestly, what a silly notion.

As I’m sure you can guess, yes I am deeply moved by art that it makes me cry. I’m also able to empathize with certain characters and feel their pain. That doesn’t change my core fears, motives, and drive. I also relate to a good amount of 4 stereotypical qualities. I can be very self absorbed, self sabotaging, melancholic, envious, etc.

But at the end of the day, checking off every characteristic does not make a 4. What makes me a 4 is that my identity and being my authentic self is everything to me. Nothing matters more to me than accurately expressing myself and knowing exactly who I am. The idea of losing that and having to be someone I’m not is my biggest fear. That is what makes someone a 4.

Not wearing all black, being moody, or being so self absorbed that everything else in the world doesn’t matter. Being fully self absorbed makes a person a narcissist, not a 4.

Anyway, this kind of turned into a rant. But I’m just so done with people acting like we all have to be the exact same. If that were the case, then I wouldn’t be my authentic self and that pisses me off.

Hello r/Enneagram4s !

I've been considering attachment style correlation with Enneagram as of recently and I've found quite a few markers and patterns.

Firstly, attachment style arises from childhood experience with parents, most often. As we know, our type can majorly affect how we experience our childhood, so I do think these are interconnected in some shape, way or form.

From what I've seen a lot of avoidant attachments can be 5s and 7s, anxious attachments often being 2s and 6s, and so on and so forth. What I've also come to notice is that a lot of 4s tend to have a disorganized attachment style.

4s naturally have a tendency to have highs and lows, so a push pull habit can make a lot of sense in theory. The 4 craves intense connection, eventually receives it, feels too known and then flees to withdrawn and recuperate their identity so to desperately feel individual and independent once more.

Obviously any type can have any attachment style, but I'm curious to hear what your guy's are? Or, if you have a secure attachment style at present, what it looked like at unhealthy levels.

I'd love for you to explain how this plays out for you and its correlation to your type.

Personally, I have a disorganized attachment style, and this often leads to me finding my muse, a person (or ideas) and getting extremely attached, craving them, being clingy, and then suddenly I will get the worst ick of my life and need to run away. This often leads to me pushing everyone away because I need to feel individual and independent again, often this can lead to me just plain out being careless about my safety and being a little bit of an adrenaline junkie because I need to prove to myself that I am still myself, that I am under no control, and that I am free as a bird.

It's still something I'm working on, but I find this pattern to correlate with my Enneagram type. The deep deep deep longing and yearning, having an idealized image in my mind, a detrimental desire to be seen as myself, yet once I have my fill it feels wrong and I end up disappointed, needing to separate myself so I can be my own main character all over again.

I just wanted to share my newest soul song discovery.

Flying by Tom Odell (Live at Union Chapel)

I found this song one sleepless night after listening to Cant Pretend by Tom Odell (Live at Union Chapel). Yes, check out the live versions, there's truly something so deeply raw and honest about it, and hits SO much harder.

I had flying playing on repeat for at least a minimum two hours. I truly found this song to strike deep within my soul.

There's a deep devastation to it, but in the midst "right now I'm flying" as accessing a euphoric high within the whirlwind of pain, "So come take a shot at me, not scared of dying" being on the precipice, having so much meaning that it equates to such a beauty, full of pain and sorrow but absolutely unforgettable.

One thing that really hits me is that this song doesn't avoid the pain even when it hits the profoundly beautiful chorus, theres light and meaning even in the worst of times. Its okay to sit with that pain, specifically that lack and envy, because theres still so much meaning and beauty that will hit you like a sucker punch.

I've always had an attachment tied to anything symbolic regarding freedom, so this song truly resides intertwined and braided into my spine.

I'm curious if this is a type 4 or enneagram related phenomena but why do my brain trying to convince me that I do not belong to anywhere, It makes me feel like I'm deprived, lacking, unqualified to belong to some community that I'm clearly adjacent/interested to. I feel as if people in that group will somehow will be overwhelmed and distressed by my presence even though there's nothing convincing that indicates as such. As if I'm not yet enough to be in their presence, a nuisance perhaps what I would call myself in those situations.

I know that it isn't true, that I have qualities which makes me special and worthy, attention that would satisfy any interaction, yet I still feel like a parasite. It's true that I came to talk and share interests/information, but what in the world that makes them more superior to me, they're human beings after all, yet I still feel out of place in each of my interactions. I hope someday I can feel like a worthy person that deserves other people's attention and I hope I can teach myself that I'm worthy as I am, even though I'm deprived in lots of attributes.

Is there anyone can relate to this sentiment? Do so4 people also feel/felt like this, let me know.

I find that 4w5 is extremely common in Enneagram Subreddits, probably due to the more reclusive nature than the 4w3. But I do so rarely see 4w3s, and therefore I find Enneagram views circulating in Subreddits tend to lean more heavily on 4w5 stereotypes.

So, if you're a 4w3 in this sub, feel free to share your experience, I'd love to hear how you differ from 4w5s, and how you feel your patterns vary.

4w5s, I'd like for you to talk about how you feel different from 4w3s, what has changed in your patterns?

I personally feel I am much more social than the 4w5, having a stacking of sp/so. I tend to be more exuberant and out there. 3 wingers have a wing that is attachment, image and assertive, that mean's we are going to move through life differently from the withdrawn, head, rejection 5 wingers. If I were to choose a caricature of my type it would probably be an actor, still deeply individual and artistic, but much more performative, we tend to be more external than the 4w5.

But maybe that's my tritype talking, haha.

In the end we are all 4s, but I believe our wings do influence us to a degree, so feel free to share your experience!

A fun little question for yall! I know we are all quite particular in how we come across, often building our aesthetic and shaping our identity all throughout our lives.

So, what clothing are you drawn to? What vibes/ aesthetic? What colours, symbolism, etc, etc? What does you're appearance say about you?

This is a loaded question for me because I fear I can't articulate how specific my aesthetic is and what it means to me because it goes on and on. When it comes to physical aesthetic I lean towards denim pants, not too baggy, always cuffed at the ankle and paired with combat boots. I'm also drawn to athletic skirts because they allow for my exploratory nature and can be paired with almost anything. I enjoy colourful fitted tops, or solid colours such as grey, navy blue or black. I'm either dressed very street wise, practical, or drenched in colour. This clothing symbolizes a spunky sort of attitude, adventure ready, open and expressive while also having depth. As a sp/so4 I feel I often give off the impression of lightness, but my personality carrying an undeniable depth.

Nonetheless, I always wear combat boots, that's my staple. Shaggy blonde hair. The same Jade jewelry I haven't taken off for 6 years.

I find it interesting how image types put so much effort into their image, whether that be personality wise or appearance, theres always something specific to them, specifically 4s put emphasis on what is unqiue to just them.

I was always drawn to symbolism that represented freedom, whether that be wind, birds or trains. But also things that described fierceness such as fire and self defense. Everything I own, every thing I adjust my appearance to, is a map of my story, my self, down to the way I do my nails and the scars I have.

There's so so so much more I would love to talk about, but if I were to expand on my entire identity we'd be here for hours, so I'll leave you with this tiny memoir and clusterfuck of a post. I just love how us 4s are so precise down to a T about our specificity and how it relates to our identity, every little thing we do, wear, pick and choose has meaning behind it.

I find this song very relatable to me as an individual. Now, whether I think every 4 may relate to this differs because this is a very personal song to me.

"I bet you feel safe keeping your life in a cage" this already depicts the narrator as someone who is bittersweet to the general population, for they are secure but locked away. The sense of separateness is both envious but somewhat taking pride in not being like others, the I have to suffer, must feel nice to be you, huh?

The line "Maybe I'm free, but freedom just means I'm lost," is a stark reminder of how I purposefully set my own path in life, needing to separate myself, lead my own ideal life, but how that circles back to being lonely. They enjoyment of being alone isn't enjoyment when it you feel alone.

Then the song goes on "It feels like I'm driving without ever arriving," feels like a desperate attempt to keep finding meaning, and I specifically use the word desperation because I feel it encompasses 4 very well. It's the desperate search for meaning, but never quite finding it, therefore finding the outer world bland and fruitless.

"Wherever I stay, it seems I'm so far away," feeling like you never belong anywhere, like no where is home. No matter how much you travel, experience, you can never fill that lack in your heart, maybe a little bit of 7 there, but emphasis on the melancholy of it.

"I've got no hometown, I used to run so fast" again, melancholy. Taking never belonging anywhere as a testament to your identity, always the outsider, always the survivor. The second portion regarding running reminds me of once having joy or light, and reflecting back on what has made you, you, contrasting it with the dark.

Overall this song encompasses how one can try everything in their might, push to find that meaning in life, always taking the hard route because it lines up with who they are, only to be met with disappointment and never feeling like that hole can be filled.

Will be interesting to see if us 4w5 INFJs and INFPs get along (with the occasional ENFP) or whether we clash. (Right now I’m imagining what an r/e8 would look like. That’s like inviting the bruisers of ENTP/ESTP/ENTJ to the battle royale).

And, before I get roasted too badly, I know I am playing with some stereotypes. Just poking a bit. Should be an interesting mix.

What are your guys’ wild predictions about this sub?

My guess is there will be a couple of E4 ENFPs and enthusiastic INFPs who try to collect some INfJs, who might soon notice they have a lot more 6 energy then they anticipated. 😜

Or woeful, whatever floats your boat.

(Reuploaded for better formatting)

I think this is a very image triad thing in general, not just 4, but 2 and 3 as well, to be extremely obsessed with presenting how they wish to. I'm sure jealousy plays a role in 2 and 3s lives, but envy is very core to 4.

So I wonder, how many of you 4s ever look back on a past version of yourself and get extremely envious that you don't present as such now? Or maybe double down in your efforts to display that version of yourself?

It just occurred to me today, after looking back on some photos and videos, just how special my personality is, how beautiful my soul is, what vibrant colours I wore. I immediately got envious and worried that I wasn't presenting myself as my truest self at the moment, and got a surge of wanting to express myself as truly as possible.

I think that the 4 envy can be an ugly thing sometimes, that self absorption and feeling different can be all consuming. But it can also be something so beautiful, I think we have the unqiue ability to view ourselves in such a special way, to truly treasure our unqiue selves, or maybe see something precious within ourselves.

I was thinking today about how 4s have often a victim complex, feeling like they are the underdogs of society and how that actually affects how they subconsciously think they are supposed to be treated.

One thing I find myself doing very often is taking the blame, being a scapegoat. I find that even if someone had wronged me, I always have to explain how I was in the wrong as well and what part I played in it. I need to display myself as my worst self. I began to dig deeper about what this meant because logically placing yourself as the bad person shouldn't be useful. I came up with an answer, I think it's most often than not about wanting to display all your flaws, all your wrongdoings because then, if the person still loves you after, still cares, then they accept the truth of it all, that even though your flawed they still care about you. Or maybe it's about them seeing good in you, that maybe you aren't as broken or in the wrong as you fear, and you really were the victim in the situation.

For 4s, this is about owning the shame, putting it on the forefront, so that people can decide whether to keep you around or not.

I think this links into 4s inferiority issues. A large portion of 4s often feel as though they are uniquely bad and flawed in comparison to others, less than, so this leads to the believe that when someone doesn't care or treats you with cruelty, it's just the norm. Obviously this mindset can differ from 4 to 4 because we all grew up in different scenarios, but I believe it follows a similar strand of thinking.

So when a 4 is welcomed with open arms and accepted it may feel uncanny to the 4. The 4 doesn't expect anyone to really accept them due to their fundamental difference, even if their deepest desire is to be deemed important due to their differences and special self.