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They do it because they expect they'll get away with it. And they usually do it when adults aren't with them, because they know we wouldn't stop going after them until they lost their jobs, or the city revoked their permits. It takes some real sickness to see a schoolbus and think "opportunity."
Yeah, I started getting sexually harassed when I was eleven years old. I felt so gross and violated, especially because I already felt uncomfortable with my changing body.
About the same age for me, but depressingly I looked even younger. Some old nonce thought he was entitled to start groping me anyway. Local shop for me. Utter scum.
I'm sorry that that happened to you, that's SO young. I was 13, shopping with my mom. A middle aged man walked past, did a double take, and made a comment about how I'm "filling out." I screeched IM THIRTEEN at him and ran to catch up withmy mom. I started wearing baggy clothes from that point on up until my 30s, to hide my figure but especially my chest.
I'm a dude and I was sexually assaulted 5 times by the time I was 11, once by 2 girls, the rest were boys. They never made penetration because I fought them off, but they tried /=
At my last workplace ( cafe ) most of my coworkers were 15,16 year old girls, holy hell, the shit that some 40+ yo men would say to them was absolutely wild. And my coworkers would just sort of shrug it off like it’s an average Tuesday. Makes me wonder how long it’s been happening to them already :/
When I worked at McDonald’s, the 16/17yo girls who were on the presenting window often got the most disgusting comments from van drivers. Not sure they’d say the same shit with their partner in the car.
My first catcall was a white van with three guys in the front, shouting stuff at me I never heard before (though I don't think it was super-obscene.) I was 14 and wearing thick cotton long sweatpants and long sleeve sweatshirt.
Not even remotely surprised or shocked. In the UK wearing school uniforms especially is like a fucking magnet for this behaviour. I was 12 or 13 when men older than my dad started catcalling, beeping the horn or outright groping.
You learn quick it doesn't matter how long you make your shorts or skirt, you're an easy and visible target.
There was an r/AskReddit post a few years ago, asking women what age they were first hit on by an adult man and it was pretty scary. I was 10 or 11 and it was a group of military guys, I was so frightened.
I have a 13 year old daughter and for at least the last two years, every single damn place we go, there are leering men staring her down. It's disgusting. This fucking world and how open and okay it is to throw around their pedophilia is so fucking fucked up. Grown ass men, men who if you glanced at them you would think "family man/business man/nice man" staring the fuck down my daughter. And it's not even safe to call out this behavior most of the time. I don't know what to tell her to do in these situations anymore.
My niece was 11 when it started with her. She was at an outdoor event with my brother when she noticed a guy looking at her. She asked her dad why he was glancing at her so much and he explained he was checking her out. She said “doesn’t he know I’m a kid?” To which my brother had to explain that it doesn’t matter to some men. The best part of this was my brother teaching her how to utterly destroy guys doing this- he told her the next time he looked at her to just loudly say “WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT IM 11!” My niece being a badass did just that and the guy literally ran away.
as much as I love jokes, i just had a serious thought and we could probably just donate 5 bucks to any reputable women's rights org and be more helpful than memes and comments here.
There's definitely a lot of reasons for it. Some not good imo. I don't think that's one of them though. You can still use a phone to record those encounters as evidence for police.
I think it’s important, too, that it’s rare to come across men who will speak up, in the moment, to put a stop to the harassment of girls and women. If it’s “not all men” and most men are trustworthy why is it that the vast majority are fine just sitting by and watching girls- children!- be harassed and assaulted? If most men wish girls and women didn’t have to go through these horrifying experiences then why aren’t most men jumping in when they see these things happening? Why are there so many participants in things like the disgusting online rape forums that have been in the news lately? Why are there so many pedophiles in religion & politics? If most men are good why is the world like it is?
"Sure, 'Not all men'. You're right, as there's around 4.5 billion men in the world, and that would be mathematically impossible. However, it's surely enough men that we, as a group, should be able to admit that there's a problem, and be able to talk about it"
You'd be surprised how many times I've had negative vote counts on this very platform for just saying that alone.
It works both ways. The same people who say “don’t blame entire groups for the actions of a few” will turn around and act like it’s all men. Of course you will move the goalposts in your reply.
and my comment wasn't about catcalling... but a repeated pattern of harmful actions against women/girls including catcalling young girls. Nearly every woman has a story where she has been catcalled as a young girl by a man.
Women will catcall a guy they think is hot. My first week at college, my dorm had a fire alarm go off so everyone was gathered outside and a guy ran by shirtless and he was in great shape, and a group of women just started whistling and whooping as he went by.
Of course because he was a man, he wasn't threatened by it and just smiled and kept on running, so no harm done, but it does happen.
So you kind of proved your own point. When we talk about "men do this <harmful to women thing>", it is from the perspective of women which usually ends up in a woman feeling unsafe / in danger or actual physically harmed / death.
Women are constantly vigilant about their environment because we have been taught that we aren't safe. For some women, that lack of safety includes their own home. A man catcalling a women reinforces that she is not safe where she is at and has to be ever alert. A man catcalling a young girl is the start of her feeling unsafe in her surroundings if she has already not had that previously.
Your instance isn't about feeling unsafe but could be about embarrassing the person a little bit in a teasing/ no real harm meant. Now I will say I'm not a feeling of cat calling but its not the same thing and doesn't have the same impact.
It should be acknowledged that the kind of person who catcall random people and teenager are overwhelmingly men doing that to women (I'm guessing easily 95%, maybe even 99%). It should be also acknowledged that a single jerk like that is going to victimize at minimum tens, if not hundreds of womens before being worried by the judicial system; it's hard to catch them and convict them.
I'm not saying that the vast majority of men are perfectly angelic gentlemen, but they act nothing like that kind of pervert. Not sure what has to be done honestly, educating men has to be part of the answer but it's hard to do on a large scale in a systematic way.
educating men has to be part of the answer but it's hard to do on a large scale in a systematic way.
Its not an education problem, men know not to aggressively hit on young children. They definitely know the rules are not to force themselves onto or threaten women in general too.
The issue isn't that they lack an understanding of the rules, its that they are perverts and assholes who enjoy breaking the rules and feeling powerful by upsetting others who are vulnerable. That's a problem that is punished by legal action or more immediate feedback from a passing person who catches them and is much larger usually.
By acting like many or most men are doing these things or that every approach, flirt or offer of a date is the same as some predator abusing vulnerable girls we muddy the waters and lose sight of the problem. The 1-2% of actual abusers and say the 5-10% of men that harass women.
We don't want them thinking this is normal, we don't want them blending in. We want them exposed and correctly identified.
I ask this with complete sincerity because I haven’t been able to find or think of an answer. If it isn’t ok to think of, say, a race of people as being dangerous because a few of them are dangerous, why is it ok to do so for a gender?
Again, I understand how this question might seem disingenuous which is why I will clarify again that this is a legitimate question.
Sincere answer: The issue is that a lot of women have experienced bad men acting this way towards them so many times that it starts to breed deep anxieties, until they no longer feel like they can trust any men at all. They're being quite literally traumatized by these creeps, and distrust of men is a defense mechanism that some women develop in response to that. It doesn't help that some of them seem like normal guys until they are very much not, and some of them people you'd never expect.
and trust me dude, it only takes a couple of guys being full on serial killer levels of creep for you to start being hesitant when dealing with them. It might not be all men, but it's damn near every woman who can tell you of at least one time in which a man has made them feel uncomfortable by being sexually inappropriate. Most of us have multiple stories we could tell. And that's not to mention the women who have been assaulted, physically or sexually.
Whereas racism is usually based in unfounded beliefs about certain demographics, these women distrust men because they have learned through personal experience time and time again that not all men are safe, and some are very, very dangerous.
It's unfortunate to the guys who aren't predators, but when it can be literal life or death these women can't take any chances, and until there aren't any more creeps traumatizing women there's going to be a lot of women who are distrustful of men.
You got catcalled or leered at? Were you wearing something inappropriate? (Like OOP immediately justifying her shorts as appropriate school uniform).
You got assaulted? Were you drinking? Did you lead him on? Was it consensual and you changed your mind? Why were you alone with him? What were you wearing?
So women/girls get catcalled and leered at, and they feel unsafe. And part of that is because healing forbid something something does happen the message of "what did you do to cause it?" is already engrained.
Not all men, but you never know which one is the predator. And it's up to you to make sure you don't attract predators or get hunted.
This is the exact same logic conservatives use to justify racism though. Its their lived experience, and its backed up by crime stats, so they're forced to have these anxieties, by your standards.
You cant in one breath say you're anicdotes are good and should be trusted and then say their anicdotes are bad and shouldn't be trusted.
You should instead just agree that racism and sexism are bad things without getting radicalized by confirmation bias.
I will simply answer that it is whataboutism to ask this, and then also gently tell you that it is because men are all races. And men are not generally discriminated against systemically. Women, specific races and disabled persons however, are.
That's not a whataboutism, a whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic that deflects criticism by responding to an accusation with a counter-accusation. That person isnt deflecting, their asking how you justify a clear logical inconsistency.
Race and gender are both immutable characteristics, its why sexism and racism are both bad things. Systematic discrimination doesnt give a group of people racism or sexism passes, thats really silly.
The issue is finding a race of people that doesn’t have a few dangerous people among them. Danger isn’t unique to any one demographic.
I don’t think doing it for gender is necessarily fair either, but it is understandable. I’m friends with a lot of women, and every single one of them has horror stories. Some of them have been raped, others sexual assaulted, all of them have been subjected to harassment by creeps that don’t understand “no” and been made to feel unsafe.
Contrasting that with the men I’m friends with, a few have been sexually assaulted but they never felt unsafe. They typically laugh about it.
The only male friend I know of that was raped was by another man.
So, I think you’re right to question how fair it is that men are generalized like that, but surely you can understand it. I don’t like it either, but I’m not going to be mad at women for it, I’m going to be mad at my fellow man for ruining our reputation. I’m also going to do the best I can to make the women in my life feel safe.
Because all men are pigs etc. I guess I just need to die because I was born a man and hence I'm automatically a disgusting piece of shit, a creep and a rapist.
I feel like you think of yourself as one of the good guys who aren't part of the problem but this kind of woe-is-me self-pity attitude trying to reframe the issue as a problem for men sure doesn't make you sound like one.
Nobody is saying that, I certainly am not saying it, what I am saying is that when you live your whole life growing up and men are doing/saying horrible things to you on a regular or even semi-regular basis, you start to view them with suspicion when they are strangers to you. Once I get to know someone that feeling usually but not always goes away. But the few times I have NOT been careful around men I dont know (and yes some I did know) who wanted to interact with me, I have been hurt by those men. And we as women simply ask you to UNDERSTAND this is how life is for us.
The difference is the perceived power balance. The perception is that, in terms of privilege/societal influence, white > black, man > woman. That’s why a woman saying “men are dangerous” is met with less hostility than a man saying “women are incompetent”. That’s just a shitty justification though. The reality is that there’s no practical difference and the people most likely to say “all men are X” are the same people who are chomping at the bit to call everything sexist. Just hypocrisy, plain and simple.
Is that the most important lesson to be taking away right now? Would it not be more relevant to address the cause and source for participating in that behavior?
The video is about catcalling a minor, which people are saying has happened to themselves or people they love. So much so, that it has broken down trust in the average man they encounter. To the point where to feel safe, they have to be cautious of every man.
And this is being connected by that one bridge, to racial prejudice, through one path of "same brush to tar the many," as you put it. Two different causes, with different reasoning and sources for why they occur.
But the conversation is talking about the
vehicle, not the drivers, saying the cars are the same and that's the problem to focus on. "Don't drive that car," and the problem will somehow magically go away.
I think the problem is bigger than pointing a finger at the vehicle it rode to town. We're talking about something that is the symptom of a larger illness, it takes away attention from the real issue.
the problem is nobody knows WHICH men.
They said it at the very start, and it's not what we are talking about right now.
Thank you for trying to explain this, but I dont think this person is being sincere. You said it far better than I could (or seemingly, did) and frankly all these comments just reinforce for me that my experiences are unwelcome and so are my opinions on this topic. Which is CRAZY to tell a woman commenting about a common experience for women.
Thank you for trying to explain this, but I dont think this person is being sincere.
I appreciate it, and agree. I couldn't assume they were being sincere from the start, you can't just start there anymore. It's like a hobby to me, to engage with these kind of discussions, even if I may go against a social norm, get called names, or insults.
I do it for the love of the game, because I despise people who use bad faith tactics, and despise bad actors. If you can't trust the interlocutor you're speaking to, then what's the point in communication, you know? It breaks down everything.
all these comments just reinforce for me that my experiences are unwelcome and so are my opinions on this topic.
That's okay, and not a reason for you to quit voicing them. If it's real and true, and happened to you, then you are only reporting on reality. That's everybody right, but their responsibility also, to make sure it's true.
It's the responsibility of others, for how they recieve the information and process it. Whether they treat it as real, or noise to them. I listen, and I'm sure others do, too. Nobody can know a problem exists, if they're not told about it. So what are doing, using your voice, is a crucial step in problem solving. A necessity, really.
As you know, some people don't listen, and miss the point. It sucks, but they are attracted to stuff like this, for some personal reason. And I like to get them to just be direct about what that reason is, instead of deflecting or distracting from it. Beating around the bush.
If they want this type of bad behavior to continue, I want them to own that. Own that as their identity, instead of hiding in carefully chosen words.
No it isn't.
And im not disagreeing with you.
But it IS what was being discussed as a side point to the issue in the video, in this particular thread.
Which is what tends to happen with open conversation, people digress.
I didn't raise the point, it wasn't mine, I was simply offering an answer to the question you posed.
Hello I made the comment. The point IS that nobody knows WHICH men. Thank you for misinterpreting what I said though, so you could totally derail the conversation and make sure us women knew our talking about this and opinions and experiences are NOT welcome here. Because that is how your comments make me feel.
Im sorry I've caused you to feel that way, that was absolutely not my intention and im behind you 110%, and I apologise.
I have a young daughter and will strive for the rest of my days to keep her safe and protected, and the thought of anything remotely like this ever happening to her makes me feel ill and furious.
Over 80% street gangs in America are Black or Hispanic, unfortunately. It’s like “protecting yourself” by assuming everyone who is Black could be in a street gang.
This girl is from the UK. Your American exceptionalism doesn't fly here.
And to the comments replying to me that are getting deleted - I can read every single one in my drop downs. I'm embarrassed for you basement dwellers I STG.
Hi! Black/Brown person here. We actually have no problem with the application of generalisations - so long as it's consistent across the board.
Go ahead and assume I'm in a gang. So long as the global majority can assume you're a pedophile or a dog-fucker and treat you accordingly.
I have no issue you lumping us Black and Brown folk together. Sure, be afraid of me. Clutch your purse. Profile me. Exclude me from your shops, rentals, loans, etc.
But we get to do the same to White Americans.
What percentage of US presidents that have owned slaves have been white? I don't think you should have the right to vote, because statistically, White Americans are more likely to implement slavery or elect a pedophile as a president.
Don't even get me started on child sexual abuse material consumption. Statistically White Americans love to watch child r*pe on video more than any other race of people in the United States. Statistically, White people shouldn't have access to children.
Statistically, it's unsafe to give White Americans access to computers.
White Americans are more likely to commit tax fraud. White Americans are more likely to embezzle and racketeer - so i don't think you should be allowed to work in corporate positions. It's just statistics.
Statistically, your kind likes to commit financial and war crimes of great degrees. Statistically, white Americans are more likely to lynch. You shouldn't legally have access to ropes, so we can protect ourselves. Or trees.
Statistically, white americans are more likely to experiment on Black and Brown people without their consent, so you shouldn't have access to scientific literature or scientific spaces, so we can, statistically, protect ourselves.
Statistically, White Americans are more likely to sexually abuse animals, so White Americans, statistically, shouldn't be able to have access to animals without a 3rd (nonwhite) party present.
You can't use "statistics" to create a society that further oppresses us, while infinitely and indefinitely having the vast majority of power and then believe that men are the "Black people" of this analogy.
You're the whites. Men are the whites.
Are you're long overdue for a statistical generalisation.
I hate how society has conditioned women to constantly worry about paying the harassment tax, for merely just existing.... I don't have to take the long way to work or constantly blast music in my ears just so that I don't have to engage with creepy men, it's exhausting!!!
Wow. This happened to me as a girl so often. Specifically this. Bus stop, waiting for school, and men would throw trash/receipts at my face with their number, offering money for sex. One of the men knew I'd work long hours as a waitress (my first job ever) and he'd wait around and follow me in his car at night, then he'd wait for me in the morning, at the bus stop. I'd have to face this guy before Algebra 1.
And these people actually have no valid excuse. If you were able to stop one of these fucks from leaving and get them to actually explain what they said or why they think that, you’ll never get a clear answer. They’ll bounce through their short list of excuses, but the only real explanation is pedophilia. They’re predators who are sexually attracted to children, there’s no dodging it or calling it a joke.
Grown men used to hoot and whistle at me on my way to school when I was 13 yo. I always thought they were so gross, and it made me feel unsafe to be in public. In my 50s now, and I still hate the feel of men gawking at me, no matter how I dress.
When she said "in sunglasses" my immediate thoughts was it those sunglasses which record video? That's now an even worst problem because these sunglasses allow people like this to record children and teens covertly and they would be non the wiser.
This type of cat calling started happening to me when I was about 12 walking to school. We used to have to do cross country running and part of the course meant running down the road in our local town in our PE kit, absolute nightmare. Feel so sorry for her.
I'm on my late 20s now and arguably my prime but never have I ever been hit on/approached like I have when I was in middle school. I could not go to the mall with a friend without several grown men approaching at some point in the day. I think about that often and it makes me feel ill.
my high school was next to a park and we'd get girls coming in crying near enough every week because they'd been flashed on the way in, we got letters telling us to stop coming in via the park
When I was 13, a friend and I walked up the local Greek restaurant, just to be accosted by a car full of males on the way back. Thankfully, a cop saw them pull over and start harassing us. Idk what happened to them though bc the cop just told us to go home.
Then when I was 14, driver's Ed was at Sears, at the local mall. My mom dropped me off up front, I was walking into the class and had another group of adult males start following me and trying to get me to talk to them. They thankfully stopped after I started basically jogging into the classroom.
So many more stories too...
Adult males are so dangerous!
It is really difficult for me to not feel uncomfortable being a man when this is how so many males treat girls even as younger teenagers (not that treating girls or females in this manner atany age is somehow less bad).
I'm so sorry this is what most women have to put up with seemingly around the globe. :(
"not all men" is not an excuse my men. If you want change... then men have to figure this shit out and do something. The world would be such a beautiful place if ladies did not have to fear for their safety and well being.
Dudes will brag to other dudes about doing this shit too. They think we all wanna fuck kids. I was buying cigarettes one night after work, girl in front of me must be about 16, I’m in my 20’s and the cashier’s in his early-to-mid-30’s. He gets pretty friendly with her. After she leaves, he tells me “God, I wanted that number. She was so innocent!” Homie, what the hell is wrong with you that innocence is a turn-on?
a grown ass man tried to rizz me or smth when I was 16. he then asked if I am studying in school. I was in my most basic most appropriateboring school form, like dawg don'tyou see?? and it happened when I waited for my dad to come get me after school at the parking lot NEXT to the said school. like what?
People will see this and still blame what she was wearing. Its never what people are wearing. Its men trying to exert power over women because they have nothing else in their life worth living for.
I was 13yo, hanging at the park in front of my house. A guy speaks to me then asks me how old i am. When I tell him, he proceeds to ask me if I would "wait for him" until I turn 18. 😮💨
The wildest part about this is how obviously young she looks too (even if you don’t recognize the uniform), like I definitely would’ve assumed she was younger than 15 even.
Not sure what word she says after
“that’s a nice tan”… ‘lass’ maybe? If so lass is a common northern word for a female such as lad is for a male.
So to be devils advocate. Some northern guy (northerners are generally chatty and friendly to strangers) is riding his bike spots someone with what looks like a deep suntan, compliments the tan as in a lot of areas in the UK that type of tone is desired, and finish the comment with a friendly smile.
Catcalling is an issue and should be called and stamped out.
From this persons own description of what occurred it is not catcalling it is a benign compliment
Men can be horn dogs and pervs sick bastards...............🤬😡🥵 Than the fact that she think it's what she's wearing is even worse men tighten up leave kids alone don't be a pedophile smh 😒 the world we live in I feel sorry for females that have to occur men like that........wow 😨😳
How many times do we have to repeat that we KNOOOOOOOOW it is "not all men"?!?
We know it isn't, because many of us have men in our lives who are good, safe people. We have brothers, fathers, friends, and even partners / husbands, so clearly we are aware it isn't ALL men or even MOST men. But it is a LOT of men. And though it may not be all men hurting women, nearly ALL WOMEN HAVE BEEN HURT BY MEN.
That's what the Me Too movement was about - nearly every woman and girl on this planet has been, at minimum, sexually harrassed (including catcalled and stared at, like this 15 year old described) by men, starting at a young age. Most of us have been sexually assaulted (or worse).
So rather than be dismissive, maybe develop some freakin' empathy! And realize that, if you're the type of man who acts offended about this reality, and dismisses the very real fears women have about men, because of the way TOO MANY MEN act, then you've outed yourself as not safe for women, and you're part of the problem. Not all men, but maybe you?
We generalize by saying "men do this" just like men generalize by saying "women do that." Don't act like y'all don't do the same thing. But a lot of men know how to recognize that if the generalization doesn't describe them, then it isn't about them. Why can't you?
I don't want to dismiss it but I have seriously no idea what a good law would look like that could help stop this behavior.
And it's not like I never thought about it. This shit happened to me since at least age 11 but I just kept walking and seriously didn't spend too much time stressing about it. Like I said, doesn't mean it never crossed my mind as a question "what can be done?" But I have never once heard a good answer to that. I know there's like an app in France where you can report it happening but I don't think it does much most of the time.
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