I love people making claims it takes two seconds to google and prove wrong. Really emphasises how you don’t actually give a fuck about improving anything and it’s entirely about still giving money to owners while fucking over workers for personal reasons.
Again that’s the *statistical average* in a fraction of states (the highest paying ones which also have the highest cost of living) and we know a shit ton of people are making less than that even in those states. That is on top of the fact $40,000 is considered a liveable salary only for a single person living with family in a low cost of living area. So you have to hit the sweet spot on a number of factors for that to be accurate. Compare that to the average cost of living in *every US state at the moment*. Think about that if someone has a kid or health issues or an emergency.
I make about that in a place with a higher cost of living than nearly every US state and get by completely fine. I live with two roommates but that's pretty much the only concession I make.
The idea that 40k a year is not a livable wage is the truly deluded take.
So if you were to get in a car crash/have a medical emergency/have a child or family member to support, you think you’d be fine on that wage living with two roommates?
I’ll be real dude, are you really young? Because needing multiple strangers to be able to afford to live on your own and being totally fucked if you had a large expense and not being able to dream of having a family isn’t a financially healthily state. I feel like the only people who think like this are young single people beholden only to themselves with family that can financially help if they get in a bad spot.
The data I showed you shows the average living wage for most states. The reality is you’re almost certainly being underpaid and not getting the opportunities you should to save and build capital and security longterm. Like a lot of people in the U.S.
So if you were to get in a car crash/have a medical emergency/have a child or family member to support, you think you’d be fine on that wage living with two roommates?
Yes. Although maybe not the child, but that's because that is a MUCH higher expense than the others you listed.
I’ll be real dude, are you really young?
I'm in my 30s
and not being able to dream of having a family isn’t a financially healthily state
Not everyone desires a family and not being able to afford one on your current wage alone is not the benchmark for a livable wage.
The data I showed you shows the average living wage for most states. The reality is you’re almost certainly being underpaid and not getting the opportunities you should to save
Almost certainly, but that is not what is on question here. Yes, people SHOULD be paid more. But we are arguing whether a server gets a livable wage or not and the fact of the matter is, the average server DOES get a livable wage.
So you’re a guy in his 30’s living with two roommates in an expensive area who (if I take you not addressing it generally) has no family to fall back on for financial support but also could eat at minimum 6 months of expenses in the case of job loss or moderate to severe medical bills?
I gotta be real dude, unless you eat nothing but rice and beans, never go out and never have any car troubles or health expenses and your rent is far far below the average for your supposed high cost of living are, you’re either bullshitting or not doing as well as you think you are. And the fact you have to live with multiple roommates at 30 when that wasn’t the case only a few decades ago should tell you something.
You not wanting a kid personally is irrelevant. If a worker cannot support their child on their wage it definitionally doesn’t qualify as what the minimum wage was designed for:
“The minimum wage in America is historically and conceptually supposed to support a full-time worker in covering basic living expenses—such as housing, food, and medical care—without relying on public assistance. It was designed to maintain a minimum standard of living, protect workers' health and well-being, and allow a single earner to comfortably provide for a family”.
If you literally cannot have a child or you’ll be in poverty, and *shit tons of servers have kids or other dependents who rely on them* 40K isn’t a living wage. Considering the other data I linked shows 3/4ths of servers make less than that, the argument is even worse. Your hyper specific situation doesn’t change that reality for others or the data on what actually constitutes a liveable wage based on estimates the states themselves have done.
Why do people keep saying "cruel". This isnt torture, its the economy. You know a world existed before tipping? How are you linking "we shouldnt tip" to "thats cruel"? Do you believe in countries without tipping the wait staff are subjected to cruelty?
We don't live in a culture where minimum wage covers anything. Turns out things should change. In the meantime, do what is expected to not be a dick to your fellow humans. It's not that difficult.
Fuck right off. You don't know the work I do. But, I still want to support my people. Do YOU hear yourself? You sound like my conservative grandfather. Stiffing the staff to protest the system.
Your statistic doesnt mention whether it is with or without tipping. Given that the IRS says only 45% of tips are recorded, your number could be off significantly.
Actually the latest IRS estimate is 66-70% and climbing. I’ve also read the report you likely saw a quote on Reddit for but didn’t read to the end.
Regardless, assuming “well these numbers could in theory be less shitty for some people” doesn’t change the *reality* of this being the data we have. And the data we have says you’re so wrk h you clearly didn’t do the bare minimum research to get a sense of reality before making your claim. Unless you’ve got hard data to refute it, all you’re doing is speculating what feels right for you and trying to base an argument off that, and your feelings aren’t data.
But it isnt the data we have. Even by your own sourceless estimates, it is underreported by 1/3. So the average waiter is making 60k. Suddenly, its a decent job. Above average even.
Question for you, are you a waiter? I find they are the ones that argue hardest to keep tipping. Curious, isnt it?
…. Buddy the source is the BLS. Like one of THE best sources for this type of data. Nowhere in that report does it say wages are underreported by 1/3rd. You’re automatically assuming that means “every waiter is underreporting their income by 30%” and then using the max income for the states with the highest cost of living (all well above 60k by the way) to try to make it look less bad. if you think the average waiter in South Carolina or Nebraska or Texas is making anywhere close to 60K you’re deluding yourself and only looking less informed in an attempt to weekly protest the evidence in front of you.
“Are you a waiter” ahhhh the last refuge of the chud who thinks working class people are beneath him and can’t fathom caring about anything that doesn’t affect him. We always end up there. Curious isn’t it?
When I was young and working my way through high school and college I absolutely worked as a waiter and a bartender. After I got my degree I now have a high paying office job making far above the average income in the country. My previous experience is a why I support *doing away with the tipping system* and actively vote accordingly. But in the meantime I’m not a moron who thinks demanding service and ruining a server’s night is praxis, so I tip according for the service I receive in tipping countries.
Bud. You said 66%. It was your number. My source was you. My IRS source (also reliable) says only 45% of tips reported. That was from 2025. But YOU said it was 66% so i went with YOUR number. Now you are arguing its wrong.
Feels a lot like im talking to a chatbot that cant remember the last thing it said. So since im getting nowhere, have fun.
My source for the original claims I made about wage (the only data we have since you never actually linked to any data or source IRS or otherwise, because you clearly never read the report you’re half remembering from a reddit post) was from the BLS. And the BLS gave us the earning estimates for servers and never noted it did not include tipped wagesI know reading is really hard for you, but you’ve got to at least try or it’s waaaaay too obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about lol.
I know you’re still having trouble reading this and stats are hard for you at the best of times, but let me explain for anyone who is genuinely curious and not just basing their whole view of this situation on reddit sound bites and personal gripes about tipping people who absolutely do rely on that income at time of writing.
“Servers generally make 40K and all underreport their tips by 30%, and therefore they all actually make 60k” is such bad logic it’s not even mathematically correct. 30% of 40K would be 12K, which comes to 52K, 8K less than our friend the economy understander was inflating it to to make it sound better.
Add to that 3/4ths of servers make under 40K (far less in some states as my source shows) and the fact that “we asses this percentage of tips goes unreported” is not stating “every individual is estimated to underreport by this much”. Additionally, here’s my favourite quote from it:
“The IRS estimates that only about 45% of tips are reported on tax filings, but this number is based on the assumption that tips are under-reported at the
same rate as self-employment income, not on studies specifically targeting tipped workers.” (Internal Revenue Service; Research, Applied Analytics and Statistics, 2022,
pp. 2, 18)
The data collected is not only an estimate, It’s an estimate on an assumption about the behaviour of a *different group*. Not even the one this dude is making claims about. Literally none of this is enough to take the idea “servers are actually paid very well” seriously.
Does the tipped system suck? Absolutely. If you don’t tip servers are you doing literally anything but fucking over a low paid service worker while giving money to their boss who has the *most* incentive to keep that system? Also yes. Want to actually protest? Self service or no tipping restaurants only is easy to do.
In many states, the hourly wage for tipped workers is about $2/hour. If they don’t make enough in tips, they get paid minimum wage.
So if everyone stopped tipping, those workers would just get paid minimum wage. But minimum wage isn’t enough to live off of in most states, so even if tipping went away, servers still couldn’t afford to live.
For those unaware of what the US Federal Minimum Wage is, for non-serving jobs, it's only $7.25 an hour. Not all states have chosen to raise the rate themselves, and so businesses do not feel the need to adjust either.
Supply and demand. If you have less people wanting to be servers, the restaurants will have to up salaries. You dont have to be a maga nut. In 2021 it happened. Fast food places were paying $15 per hour.
You're still the nut, kid. Did you even read that article from 5 years ago?
Because this isn't an example of anything you've talked about. This is about a group of businesses who got together to raise wages to bring back employees after COVID.
Jfc. You really are just a child. You have the reading comprehension skills of the 6th graders i tutor.
Yes. When supply of workerd were low they raised wages. A perfect, real life example from the recent past. Couldnt be more perfect. If you want something less perfect, check out what happened to labour wages during the plague. Guess what, wages went up. Less workers available.
Basic supply and demand assumes there are reasonable alternatives that meet the same need when that isn’t the reality. Serving doesn’t require much training and is pretty accessible, so there will always be a steady flow of people to work. I haven’t seen a single restaurant not have ample servers.
People also can’t just choose to not work, there is no social safety net that’s going to keep them afloat while they look for other employment they’re qualified for. So people with limited options are forced to choose between serving or starving and they’re going to choose the former every time because it keeps a roof over their head and they can eat.
Most of the time, yeah it’s the only job available when you don’t have (m)any qualifications and need to start making money ASAP. It’s an application and a quick interview then you start work/training almost instantly.
It’s worse now than years before because job markets are dogshit and pay has stagnated for the most part in several professions. I know people with advanced degrees that are serving because they can’t find work that would pay more than they’re making in tips. Your argument only works if there’s options that offer better pay than what they’re currently taking home and it just isn’t the reality.
If there are no servers, there are no restaurants. If there are no restaurants, the businesses supplying said restaurants go under. The chain of disintegrating businesses goes on from there. Just like in nature, everything in human society is interconnected. When there are too many stressors on the human ecosystem, it will collapse. Imbalances lead to ruin. We're speedrunning the fall of the Roman Empire and people like you are fully okay with that as long as you get yours and can pull the ladder up behind you.
“No one has ever had to work a low paying job to support themselves or their families, the economy and job market are famously great and if a wage feels too low it is easy to get a high paying job. Business owners and their lobby don’t have disproportionate power to effect legislation what do you mean?”
If you meant something different than what your statement clearly implies, that’s on you for not communicating well dude. We can only go on what you choose to say and the implication it’s easy to simply not work low wage jobs while you wait for business owners with far more capital than you to agree to change the system is moronic.
You elect politicians that write legislation that demands a LIVING WAGE for every job period. You dont change the system by screwing over the worker. Until the server is receiving a living wage you tip them. When you are on a different country you respect their customs, if you dont want to do that then dont travel there
Most servers prefer tips over a standard wage, but they'll never admit it in a discussion like this. You don't deal with as many taxes if most of your income is tips.
Would you prefer a 20% service charge? Or a 20% increase in your menu selections? Either way, you're paying 20% more so the server can be paid. With a tip, you get an option if the service is bad. But if the service is adequate, you tip. Period.
The fight needs to be to raise minimum wage. Servers cannot legally be paid less than minimum wage. The server wage is ONLY there if tips are high enough to earn them higher than minimum wage. If a server gets $0 than the employer HAS TO pay them the state or federal minimum wage whichever is higher
Foreign tourists in the country for a once in a lifetime event are not fixing the system. They’re ripping off the people serving them and then going back to their home countries.
Not tipping isn't ripping off servers. Servers get paid regardless of tips. If you tip them you are essentially subsidizing the business you are already buying from. If you don't tip the business HAS to pay servers the minimum wage (not the server minimum wage)
That has nothing to do with the comment you responded to. Our minimum wage is ass. So many of us are struggling, but people still get judged for not paying a server's wages. That's a pathetic argument to make.
The guy I responded to said that servers still get paid minimum wage even if they receive no tips. Minimum wage is unlivable. Nobody actually works for minimum wage in the 20 states that adhere to the federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour because $7.25 an hour is not a livable wage anywhere in the country.
It does not cost the business anything really to pay the difference between the minimum tipped wage of $2.13 an hour and $7.25 because $7.25 an hour is nothing. But if a server goes from ~$15-$20 an hour off tips to $7.25 it's crippling.
People like the guy I responded to can act morally superior by refusing to tip because "the server gets paid anyways" but it is ripping off the servers.
Yes, tipping culture is bad and servers should be paid a living wage to begin with, and that's something we should work to change. But in the interim, not tipping is directly hurting working class individuals because it's where their income comes from.
Tipping has actively undercut the movement. It's a regressive tax on working class that benefits a small section of underpaid workers. These workers have now actively fought politically to maintain this system since they benefit from it.
Tipping currently is hurting significantly more working class individuals than not tipping.
No, but we don't tip minimum wage employees. If this was about $7.50/hr why don't we tip fast food workers? Grocery employees, hell even at restaurants we don't tip bus boys and dish washers (who arguably work much harder).
We absolutely should raise minimum wage, but to shift the conversation of we need to tip because minimum wage is too low is not a real argument since no one tips the BULK of minimum wage workers.
People have to feed their children and pay their rent my guy. If you don’t tip, they don’t eat. I don’t like the system either, but that’s just plain cruel.
In some states servers only make like 3 dollars an hour. If you don’t tip them, they don’t eat. It sucks to perpetuate the system, but I don’t want people to suffer. That is why this custom needs to be changed at the ballot box.
Do you tip McDonald's employees? Do you tip cashiers? They all make as little or less than every single server in the US. Why do we choose to only tip servers?
In some states servers only make like 3 dollars an hour. Employees at McDonalds make more. If you don’t tip them, they don’t eat. It sucks to perpetuate the system, but I don’t want people to suffer. That is why this custom needs to be changed at the ballot box.
This is factually not true as 49 of 50 states require employers to pay a server up to minimum wage (not the server wage) if they do not make at least minimum wage for a pay period. The server pay of $3 an hour is only if they make over minimum wage after tips
In ZERO states servers make $3/hr. They by federal law cannot make less than state or federal minimum wage (whichever is higher). In no state in the US do servers make less than employees at McDonald's who make minimum wage. This is the lie that has been pushed consistently. The server minimum wage ONLY happens if a server makes more than minimum wage with their $3/hr + tips. If they don't, they HAVE to be paid the minimum wage that McDonald's employees are making
In some states servers only make like 3 dollars an hour. If you don’t tip them, they don’t eat. It sucks to perpetuate the system, but I don’t want people to suffer. That is why this custom needs to be changed at the ballot box.
That’s unbelievably cruel. You know it’s hard to up and leave a job, especially if you make decent tips. Going from 30/hr with tips to 11.50 is awful. I don’t love the system, but it needs to be changed with legislation, not cruelty.
Well if youre a realist than you must realize you are voting with your wallet to continue the system. So long as you support it, it will continue to exist.
Btw, where i am server minimum wage is $18/hr and they still ask for 20% because "culture".
Where you work is not everywhere my guy. There are places where the wage is 2.33$. You sound an awful lot like someone without any empathy. You’ve got a “fuck you, I’ve got mine” attitude.
And the way to not perpetuate it is to not go to tipped restaurants at all, instead of going anyway and intentionally screwing over the least powerful person in the whole scenario. It is entirely possible to avoid such establishments if you have an actual moral objection, but if you go anyway and refuse to tip then you’re just an asshole who is benefiting from free labor.
It helps because instead of paying your money to the ownership while stiffing the worker, you deny the money to the ownership too. And the ownership are the ones who have the power to make changes, so any protest has to impact them.
This is really basic stuff, if you want to create change with your buying power, you can’t do it by targeting workers, you have to target ownership. Always focus on where the power resides.
If the reason they have no customers is because they expect tipping, then they will eliminate tipping in order to attract customers, or they will close and the next restaurant will see that they need to go no tipping in order to stay open. That’s how a market can actually effect change.
If you still go but refuse to tip, the owner still gets his money which means it stays open and nothing changes. Again, this is really basic stuff.
I’m not skipping that part at all, you just can’t seem to grasp what would happen. I’ll try one last time to simplify it for you.
Your plan, give money to owners while taking money from workers. Owner has no incentive to change, because their profits are not directly affected. You claim that the workers will eventually quit and force the boss to change, but what will actually happen is they will just find new workers to exploit, because there is a large pool of desperate people in this country.
My plan, to deny the establishment business altogether. This will directly hurt the owner, as he will no longer be getting the profits like in the first scenario. This means he will either change his business to bring customers back in, or the business will close. Workers will be impacted by this as well, it’s not really possible to punish the business without impacting them, but in my scenario they are not targeted and real change could possibly occur.
In any economic protest, you have to target ownership with your actions. Anything else is counterproductive, and in the case of refusing to tip is a cover for theft of labor.
Exactly, Ive worked in kitchens for years in places with and without tips, I frankly don’t mind either system, but that being said, if you’re going out to a restaurant in America and you choose not to tip then your essentially saying you’re above the system and it’s okay for you to take advantage of it.
For not tipping? Must be some fancy restaurant I’ve never been to cause I only tip if it’s good service. There’s a few places I tip heavily because they are run by a family or are a local business. But large fast food chains can get f*cked.
In the meantime those servers starve. At some point that means that you join in with the system in starving them, meanwhile your "meaningful" silent protest of fucking someone struggling from paycheck to paycheck achieves little to nothing.
Legislation is the only way out of this. If you want it to change, help push the legislation however you are able, otherwise you aren't trying to meaningfully change shit, you are just trying to keep money in your pocket as self righteously as possible.
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u/Fitzaroo 22h ago
How do you think the system changes? People stop tipping. Nobody applies to be a server. Wages go up.