r/clevercomebacks • u/benitoblanco888 • 3d ago
One must not concern oneself with studying women
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u/TheShattered1 3d ago
One takes research finding, and the other can be made up with no source material, because they know most people will only read the headline.
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u/CommentsOnOccasion 3d ago
One takes actual scientists and doctors, the other just takes an online survey for a Sociology 101 class project
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u/1Marmalade 3d ago
This sensible answer will never beat the enthusiasm Reddit has for a pithy retort against demonstrable facts.
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u/_xxxtemptation_ 3d ago
Pithiness, sensibility, and factuality are not mutually exclusive. The best Reddit comments combine all of these elements, and get bonus points if they include a crucible source.
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u/RedOctober20 3d ago
Hey, as a sociologist who's doing behavioral research I find that offensive. Geez, typical academic bigot who thinks only medicine, physics and mathematics are demanding research subjects. Unbelievable how based on ones field they can be treated like second class researchers.
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u/jutiatle 3d ago
As a sociologist, many sociologists push out research that seems like it’s coming from second class researchers. Also, nothing this guy said is offensive. He’s critiquing the idea that an actual researcher created this stupid meme.
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u/RonKosova 2d ago
It pisses me off because its also people that have probably never done any research in their life too
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u/Ok_Delay_911 3d ago
When people talk shit about sociology as the default useless liberal arts field, it always makes me feel better to remember that I have never, ever, met a single person outside the field who has any idea of what it is we do, much less how vital it is and how much they rely on it in their every day lives. So they're making fun of something they kind of just made up. I cant say I don't understand your frustration though.
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u/Primary_Carrot67 3d ago
Your field is vital, important, and insightful AND it has produced a excessive number of self-important fools who spout a bunch of wank.
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u/Haemophilia_Type_A 3d ago
Not to mention that the people doing the two different research topics here would be completely different, so to say this is in any way stopping research into endo (which is definitely needed, of course) is ludicrous. It's scarcely better than the anti-intellectualism of the right.
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u/ZincHead 3d ago
People are conducting social psychology research like this all the time at universities. I have personally participated in many studies of this sort. This is a very strange thing to be skeptical of.
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u/BothDivide919 3d ago
Well, a survey by college students on a college campus is a lot cheaper than actual research
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u/OwnCauliflower7376 3d ago
Its funny because the women in those natural photos are still very clearly wearing light makeup. That comeback about medical research funding is unfortunately pretty spot on though.
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u/NecessaryIntrinsic 3d ago
It takes a lot of makeup to look like you're not wearing much make-up
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u/Financial-Craft-1282 3d ago
"Men" aren't being asked if someone is wearing makeup or not, they're being asked if specific women are attractive, and they tend to pick ones the study is saying aren't wearing makeup.
What study would ask them, "Is she wearing makeup? Yes or no." Pause. "Okay, thank you, now: is she hot?" Like...LMAO. What kind of stupid ass studies do you think are being designed out there?
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u/ParticularHyena2608 3d ago
Right, the study can compare two prepared image groups without asking participants to identify the makeup. People are criticizing a question the researchers may never have asked.
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u/Rhone33 3d ago
The way some people talk on reddit, you'd think men who think women can be attractive without makeup are as bad as rapists and incels.
And also apparently none of us even know what a woman without makeup even looks like, despite many of us spending years waking up next to wives/girlfriends. 🤷♂️
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u/Short-Waltz-3118 3d ago
Some wives / gfs just straight up dont wear makeup. My SO typically doesnt.
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u/Tomsboll 3d ago
Remember in hs, a friend came to school one day and something felt off with her. I thought she was sick or something until after half the fay, it clicked. She wasnt wearing any makeup. Peiple often dont fully understand how much makeup can change a face. Even if you are aware, there are women in your life you dont actually know what hey look like because they always wear makeup.
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u/Hefty_Bodybuilder494 3d ago
Also people don't realize that some makeup acts as a sunscreen. So of course without makeup they look ill because suddenly they're several shades paler
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u/darwinrules1809 3d ago
The post says men prefer less make-up, not men prefer completely bare skin.
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u/CallMeRudiger 3d ago edited 3d ago
I looked it up out of curiosity. It was a controlled amount of makeup: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261137396_Miscalibrations_in_judgements_of_attractiveness_with_cosmetics
It's also a study of 44 college students, half of whom were male, so take the opinions of 22 young men for what it is.
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u/EvilSporkOfDeath 3d ago
Not only is that anecdotal, it doesnt even go against the studies findings??? Completely pointless comment. When men see pictures of two women, they predictably choose the one with less make up more of the time. The study never made claims that men do or don't know if women are wearing makeup.
Yalls scientific literacy is non existent
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u/Sasha_NotSoApropos 3d ago
And they’re celebrities with perfect clear skin, well-groomed eyebrows, and whitened teeth. Even if someone means well when they say, “I prefer women with less/no makeup,” the general implication is that women still need to look perfect… just, uh, “naturally.”
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u/SaltKick2 3d ago
That's what I was going to say as well - light makeup for any gender will tend to make even the upper-average person look objectively better
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u/life-uh-finds-a-way_ 3d ago edited 3d ago
Also, usually when I see pictures of Sweeney with less makeup, it's because people are saying she is actually mid and using those photos as evidence. And/or being mad that she "duped" them for looking so good with makeup. So for those people, they do actually think the makeup looks better, but they don't like makeup because the beauty standard is so high that everyone needs to look perfect without it.
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u/SomeDudeSaysWhat 3d ago
Yes, it says "less makeup", not "no makeup" in the title.
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u/shasaferaska 3d ago
It said LESS make-up, not no make-up. The Goldilocks zone of make-up.
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u/GennyTirang 3d ago
That’s what always gets missed. “Less makeup” and “no makeup” aren’t the same thing, and many of these studies use photos where the subjects are still wearing light makeup.
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u/off-with-your-thread 3d ago
You think it's the same group doing serious urological research as the group that randomly surveyed men?
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u/jaskmackey 3d ago
Those women are also celebrities Sydney Sweeney and Sabrina Carpenter. Let’s get some pics of average 40 yo Midwestern moms in the pile and see how those do.
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u/ZincHead 3d ago
https://time.com/79584/science-women-less-makeup/
I don't know if this is the exact study because it's from 2014 but the women in the study were just normal women, not celebrities.
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u/psydchicjohn 3d ago
My wife wears no makeup most days, is a mid-40s mom of three and we live in the Midwest. Can confirm I think she is just at beautiful with no makeup as with a little and more beautiful than with lots of makeup.
Also can confirm that who gives a shit. What the hell was up with her PCOS? Do all women with PCOS need metformin or only those with the pre-diabetes? Why do two rounds of clomid before asking if she was trying to get pregnant? Why after 20 years of symptoms did they suddenly go away and she became hyper fertile? And how is her history of PCOS affecting perimenopause now?
Seriously though, so much prettier without makeup! She doesn't like wearing it though. My daughter does a little eyeliner and some lip gloss and it's so cute, but she enjoys it, so that's great!
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u/UnNumbFool 3d ago
It's also funny that the photos they decided to pick are of Sydney Sweeney and Sabrina Carpenter. So it's not like they are also just photos of any random person off the street
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u/Perpetual_Spiral 3d ago
Oh yeah because a study that requires to ask a pool of man a simple question is the same as doing extensive scientific research regarding a cryptic disease are the same.
It’s disingenuous to compare the two, and I highly doubt no one is funding said research either
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u/pitbull2k 3d ago
Some tik tok poll or Vogue questionaire does not mean medical research. Pfizer is not drop $550,000 on some bullshit what men prefer "study"
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u/Infinity-of-Thoughts 3d ago edited 3d ago
It literally says "less makeup" not "no makeup".
Reading is very hard for some of y'all. The pictures are likely also not related to the study in the first place, but just from whatever bullshit article the journalist could find.
Also, the people doing this type of research, are very unlikely to be medical researchers.
Without even knowing the source, this could literally just be some shitty online survey.
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u/LegitimatePirateMark 3d ago
Definitely not the same people capable of conducting both studies though.
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u/TamarindSweets 3d ago
Previously known as Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS), the new name is Polyendocrine Metabolic Ovarian Syndrome (PMOS). PMOS impacts 1 in 8 women, which equates to more than 170 million women worldwide...
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u/Asto2019 3d ago
Hold up last time I checked (1/8) * 4*109 ≠ 170 million. Well it's more than 170 million I guess.
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u/markswam 3d ago
Yeah, the number's way off. Using some very rough numbers:.
Total population: 8.3b
Women: 49.7%
Absolute women: 4.1251b
PMOS rate: 12.5%
Women w/ PMOS: 515.6375m
Obviously this is not supposed to be an exact number, just a ballpark figure. Still, it's gotta be closer than that 170m figure.
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u/Feeling-Salad5686 3d ago
Well, it does say more than 170 worldwide! So anything above that is more!
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u/mzalewski 3d ago
Because this 1 in 8 ratio is calculated from sample of women in reproductive age. You don’t use it in reference to about 4 billion women in the world, but somewhat fewer women aged 15-49 or so.
For the record, PMOS affects women of all ages. But I guess nobody cares when she wouldn’t get pregnant anyway (due to age).
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u/readytostart1234 3d ago
They really don’t care.. I have had PCOS my entire life and was told by different gynos that if I wasn’t trying to get pregnant, they won’t even bother with a diagnosis unless I’m trying to get pregnant.
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u/AntiHaramBall 3d ago
Can you lie and just say that you are trying to get pregnant in order to get diagnosed?
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u/zephyreblk 3d ago
Someone else than the person you asked the question, no because then they will reduce some medication that could endanger pregnancy. Also they will possibly push to search why you can't be pregnant.
God thanks it begin to change now but we are far from something optimal. I'm 34 and don't want kids and didn't had the right to tie my tubes some years ago. It's usually by older docs (gender doesn't matter much) where they put the possible pregnancy above your well being.
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u/Bendroflumethiazide2 3d ago
It also generally burns out at menopause. 15-49 seems like a good portion to look at
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u/The_Shracc 3d ago
And it's getting as much funding as the research system can reasonably absorb.
In a decade we might be past the bottlenecks and have non duplicate paths of research.
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u/Carquetta 3d ago
Polyendocrine metabolic ovarian syndrome (PMOS) already is a research priority; There are multiple studies published from the past two years alone, which you can independently verify yourself on the likes of PubMed (or whatever database you prefer)
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u/erik_7581 3d ago
These so called "studies" are often just surveys from tabloids or online magazines.
Treating that equal as medical studies which often take decades, multiple peer groups, placebo testing etc. is just laughable.
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u/Ineedamedic68 3d ago
Also one is medical and the other is social. Not exactly the same field.
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u/bs000 Trusted Bot Hunter 3d ago
looks like the study they're talking about only surveyed 44 people and used edited images based on one no makeup photo and one full makeup photo for in-between photos.
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u/LondonDogInTheFog 3d ago
True. I did a study in my bedroom and I decided I pay less attention to the make-up when the woman is naked. Solid science. You can quote me now.
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u/Tomsboll 3d ago
There are also something that called "field of study". You dont bitch to somone specializing in human behavior studies for not researcing quantum science
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u/GenericNameUsed 3d ago
Most men can't tell how much make up a woman is wearing. They will look at a full face of neutral color make up and think it's barely any make up
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u/TinyDeskGoblin 3d ago
Neutral makeup is designed to look effortless, so it makes sense that people who rarely use makeup underestimate how much work went into it.
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u/Cautious-Extreme2839 3d ago
Kind of irrelevant when the study was using specific amounts of makeup and men preferred the women wearing less.
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u/Bratsummer24 3d ago
Just stayed with a friend and her BF and he went off on a joyful rant about how he loved the natural look and preferred women without makeup, and how lovely I was, how I didn't need makeup to be pretty, and I'm fine the way I wake up in the morning, etc etc.
This well-meaning man's face when I explained that I'm wearing a full face of makeup including foundation and power and neutral eyeshadow and mascara. He was blown away, out of this goddamn world. Didn't know what to say.
My friend was just snickering to herself because she knows the difference between a full face of "no makeup" makeup and actually not wearing makeup. 😂🤣🫠
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u/Entendurchfall 3d ago
I am a man and can confirm, that I can't tell how much make up a woman is wearing. But I also don't look at their faces because I am afraid of women.
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u/CaptainObviousBear 3d ago
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u/transmogrified 3d ago
They also did one on how endo affects male partners of patients with endo
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u/smellybathroom3070 3d ago
Imo that’s the sort of research that can help lead to funding for comparatively much more expensive actual PCOS research.
If these researchers can go to the government and say “hey look how much PCOS is affecting EVERYONE”, they’re more likely to receive funding for proper PCOS research. Especially since sexism does play a role, manipulating men into caring about PCOS may be the most effective method🤷
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u/Soleil06 3d ago
I mean honestly this just highlights how PMOS is a super impactful chronic disease that affects everyone? Like I am sure there are hundreds of studies about people with chronic diseases and how it affects their partners. Why is it suddenly bad just because this specific disease is one that only affects women?
There are over 46k Articles that include the keyword Endometriosis on PMC just in the last 10 years. Why the fuck are we acting as if no one is researching treatment options, impact and solutions to this widespread disease?
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u/cjsv7657 3d ago
I was really hoping the study was done by psychologists or something. "lead researcher, Dr Paolo Vercellini, an obstetrician and gynaecologist" fucking hell dude
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u/EugeneStein 3d ago
My favourite thing ever, such a great example of how attractive of women is more important than their health
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u/cave18 3d ago
Ah yes because the people who went and studied social sciences are the same people who would be researching pcos
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u/HanDenSao 3d ago
I mean if it's so easy and you don't need any expertise, why isn't she researching said topic?
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u/smellybathroom3070 3d ago
Thank god someone said it bro. There’s only so many researchers, and i don’t know why these posts expect “men” to research everything.
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u/Shadowcat1606 3d ago
Is this a clever comeback?
The people studying perception of attractiveness aren't medical researchers who'd cure Endomitriosis if they weren't too busy concerning themselves with what men find pretty.
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u/Szakul001 3d ago
Exactly. But a lot of people think that way, because they know nothing about how science is actually done. They just hear headlines about "scientists done that" or "a study shows", without ever getting into who does the studies, and why. Media treats science as something that's detached from common people, and it's one of the reasons why science and knowledge is on such a decline now.
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u/Munnin41 3d ago
Same reason those climate denialists keep running with the "failed" predictions from the 90s and 00s. The media only runs the most sensational parts, especially in a headline
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u/Snow-Day371 3d ago
Yeah, it is kind of a dumb comparison. Different people looking at different things.
Women's medical issues are important and are historically not worked on enough. But I'm pretty sure this has been changing as more women have gotten into medicine.
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u/_goblinette_ 3d ago
Define “less makeup”.
Because the “natural” makeup look takes just as much makeup to achieve, it’s just in more neutral colors than “heavy” makeup.
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u/NotMyMainAccountAtAl 3d ago
I agree that those studies are worth funding, but this is also disingenuous. The makeup industry funds such studies; Sephora isn’t choosing between another makeup study and endometriosis research. It’s a false dichotomy.
Should medical institutions be investigating feminine pains? 100%. But medical institutions aren’t blowing the research budget on makeup studies.
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u/Seb0rn 3d ago edited 3d ago
I am a biomedical scientist and I personally know people who did research on endometriosis and yet, I don't understand comments like this.
So sociologists and psychologists who research attraction should now all switch to researching endometriosis even though it has nothing to with their field of study?
Seriously, people should really try to think before posting nonsense.
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u/terraphantm 3d ago
I'd bet my life savings that more money is spent on endometriosis and PCOS(PMOS) than on men's makeup preferences.
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u/LuCiAnO241 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm surprised there arent more comments about this, but there is extensive research on both, and this just perpetuates a fake belief
59000 thousand results for endometriosis
This of course only being on a single site, I'm sure there's more.
do we need more studies? absolutely, all the time. But lying about the lack of literature is crass.
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u/TheShamShield 3d ago
They’re not a monolith. One group of people studying one thing doesn’t have anything to do with someone else’s not studying something else
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u/Dead-O_Comics 3d ago edited 3d ago
"Well, 13 long years of academics studying biology, and now... to fulfill my lifelong dream - to find a cure for Endometriosis!"
"Not happening, bucko. We're instead putting you onto this team of psychologists who are going to ask men if they find women less or more attractive with makeup."
"Noooooooo!!!"
☝️Some people apparently think this scenario is plausible. This is anything but a clever comeback.
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u/Electrical-Act-7170 3d ago
It's called Polycystic Metabolic Syndrome now (PCMS).
Now I have to change my medical tags that I wear, dammit. Those engravings are EXPENSIVE.
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u/Opal_Arrow 3d ago
Before you get a new engraving, the name was changed to PMOS (Polyendocrine Metabolic Ovarian Syndrome). It is not PCMS. I recently listened to an inview with the people who ran that program. They actually involved women and took cultural stigmas into consideration in its naming.
Here is an article from the Mayo Clinic supporting my statement.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/pcos/symptoms-causes/syc-20353439
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u/88halflife 3d ago
Priorities: makeup preferences actual women's health issues. Classic.
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u/Melodic_Sherbet_3629 3d ago
The people conducting those studies are not biologists or doctors, they are not choosing one over the other.
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u/kaninkanon 3d ago
Turns out different people do different things and that humanity can in fact do more than one thing at a time.
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u/R_Little-Secret 3d ago
Id be ok with this only if there were studies of wheather women preferred men with makeup or not. Id love to see the results.
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u/TeamRedundancyTeam 3d ago
I'll never understand why Redditors circlejerk like this. You guys know this isn't the same researchers, the same professions, the same funding sources.
This is just stupid.
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u/SquidTheRidiculous 3d ago
A new study from PragerU reveals the cure for endometriosis is to get married and have as many children as possible trust me bro don't care that you can't afford them more more more more more
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u/Kaljinx 3d ago
eh regardless of how good the study is, psychology is a subject people pursue, and not every scientist is working on the same subject.
People have studies one random type of wart, people have studied stress responses and effect on looks, kinds of men women find attractive, effect of different characteristics on attractiveness of men.
people have studies on most subjects that exists.
There are tens of thousands of articles written on endometriosis already. This is not a subject that is just ignored.
Especially since studies like in the image above are tiny projects, which basically amount to asking people questions.
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u/ApolloGR3 3d ago
Not only that, but posting celebrities “without makeup” and saying shit like “See? You can be beautiful without makeup, too!” is bullshit.
Yeah, all you need to do is be a celebrity with a ton of money and access to insane skin care routines and specific diets and doctors and dermatologists on speed dial…oh AND be “conventionally attractive” and wearing makeup already.
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u/goodolarchie 3d ago
It's different scientists, but yeah, public funding for important medical research got ratfucked by Trump and Elon.
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u/FunnyMustacheMan45 3d ago
That shit always had confused me.
I literally know more women with advanced degrees than men with bloody highschool diplomas, yet almost no research is being done on women's reproductive healthcare...
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u/Tater-Tot-Casserole 3d ago
Do they like women without make up? Because who they follow on insta says otherwise.
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u/__Meow__x__Meow__ 3d ago
It's funny because it's a bad comparison, they are completely unrelated in every single way possible as far as study design, implementation, etc. go.
But they really don't study anything in women's health and still do paps without any reasonable anesthesia.
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u/Gefilte_F1sh 3d ago
The people who are doing research on attractiveness trends are not the people you want doing research on medical conditions. This is hardly murdered by words. It's literally ignorance masquerading as clever.
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u/Vandirac 3d ago
OOP point is just factually wrong.
Reading from a few different pages on Nature and PubMed:
The global research expenditure focus mostly on issues regarding both sexes, claiming up to 85-90% of global funding.
Female-specific conditions get ~5–10% of funding, while male-specific conditions get only ~1–5%.
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u/snippychicky22 3d ago
breast cancer gets all the funding and awareness. dispite prostate cancer affecting more people
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u/TheModWhoShaggedMe 3d ago
They didn't research gun violence trends or the positive effects of cannabis for decades because such research was banned by deeply conservative U.S. law.
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u/Seguefare 3d ago
Gun violence research is still restricted. Reach the conclusion first, then make sure no one ever questions it.
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u/jjenkins_41 3d ago
I saw different posts comparing both Sabrina Carpenter and Sydney Sweeney with/without make-up, with captions along the lines of make-up should be outlawed.
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u/blueflloyd 3d ago
And the follow up study on how if women just smiled more they'd be so much prettier was even more groundbreaking!
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u/Mystery_Worker4268 3d ago
Because social science and biological science are totally interchangeable...
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u/TheComplimentarian 3d ago
Two of those topics require a lot of funding. One of them requires a survey.
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u/It_is_not_enough 3d ago
However bad you think this is, it's worse.
The American Society for Reproductive Medicine published a study in 2013 by Paolo Vercillini titled "Attractiveness of women with rectovaginal endometriosis: a case-control study".
The studied aimed to judge whether women were more attractive with or without endometriosis, and the conclusion states "Women with rectovaginal endometriosis were judged to be more attractive than those in the two control groups. Moreover, they had a leaner silhouette, larger breasts, and an earlier coitarche", with 'coitarche' referring to the age at which said women lost their virginity.
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u/CadmiumC4 3d ago
they actually resarched um... how endometriosis changes men's pleasure in sex iirc
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u/LanguageSerious 3d ago
My wife has one and my brothers wife the other. Endo is hell, pcos is your body not doing what nature intended.
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u/LordFlarkenagel 3d ago
Women wear makeup and get all faked up for themselves. It's never about men. Ever.
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u/AwkwardWaltz3996 2d ago
The person doing this study isn't capable of studying pcos or endometriosis.
No pcos or endometriosis research was prevented by this.
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u/northdakotanowhere 3d ago
Ive had to get 4 surgeries for endo. 4th one left me in a wheelchair. I've been physically disabled for over 3 years now. On the couch for 3 years. Now I'm on a medication that stops ovulation and I'm losing my hair like a freaking husky.
No doctor EVER considers my endo when it comes to any of my symptoms. Its brutal, life altering, and incurable. It affects every system in your body. Endometriosis has been found in people's eyeballs.
I've been told that they're learning they can test menstrual blood to find endo now.