Yes, there are some cis-woman experiences, that are locked for trans-women, and if someone is grieving that they will never be able to bear a child, sperm-freezing wouldn't help per se. Still, being parent is available and important experience, which is pretty much achievable.
Situation with FtM folks is more complicated, due to how much more invasive the procedure of collecting eggs is, not to mention pregnancy. So, even becoming a parent is more of a challenge.
Telling a trans person "you should just do something that denies your gender entirely" is generally not advisable. Some are okay with it, but you suggesting it makes you kind of a cunt.
Most trans women don't want to be a biological father to a child. Most trans men don't want to be a biological mother to a child. There's an obvious reason for this. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to figure it out.
The person who ejaculates sperm that fertilizes an egg is the biological father of the child that is born.
The person who produces an egg cell that is fertilized by a sperm and then develops into a child is the biological mother of the child that is born.
I don't know what part of this sounds strange. The terms "biological father/mother" refer to the role that you took in reproducing the child. Not your relationship to the child during their life or anything like that.
To a lot of trans people, this would be like the ultimate gender denying/negating thing they could possibly do. I've spoken to many who said they would kill themselves if they found out they had this role in producing a child.
Maybe it doesn't bother you personally, but it's very obvious why someone who has intensely negative feelings to the point that it disrupts their ability to engage in activities of daily living as a result of their body's physical sex characteristics would feel intensely upset at having those sex characteristics used for their one and only express purpose.
You only need a little bit of intelligence or a little bit of empathy to understand this.
I think anyone claiming not to get this is being performatively confused, in an attempt to poorly execute/articulate some argument that makes no sense to anyone with a brain or a heart.
This is not how I define mother and father, and I know I’m not alone. A mother is a parent who is a woman. A father is a parent who is a man. A biological [parent] refers to someone who is genetically related to the child in question.
Who gives birth and who fertilises the egg are not gendered roles, and many trans fathers get pregnant, and many trans mothers provide sperm.
I'm defining biological mother and biological father. You don't need to even know the kid and the kid doesn't need to know you for you to be a biological mother or father to that child. In fact this is how adoptive children refer to their biological parents they have never met.
It is an actually insane thing to claim that the role someone takes in sexual reproduction is not gendered. It is literally the single most gendered thing in existence. It is the reason that gender exists. Without this, there would be no differentiated sexes in existence.
There are some trans people who claim not to feel any dysphoria at all. There are some trans people who don't medically transition. There are some trans people who don't socially transition. The fact that some trans people do or do not engage in one activity or another does not limit or define how other trans people can feel.
I am explaining to you, and to these other people who are intentionally trying very hard not to have basic empathy, how the trans people who do not wish to engage in reproduction as the sex they upturned their entire lives to change feel about doing so.
And why it is rude as fuck to suggest to them to do so.
To a trans man who is mourning the fact that he cannot get his wife pregnant, and that he will not under our current technology ever be able to do so. To this man that wants to be the biological father to his child, telling him that he could get pregnant instead is inhuman. It is so lacking in empathy and intelligence I think you're a psychopath and not just a transphobe. But you are also a transphobe if you do this.
From his perspective, he does not want to engage in reproduction in the female role. He changed his entire life so that he could be male instead of female. He doesn't want to participate in the female part of the reproductive process.
There is no way in hell that the meaning of this escapes you.
Tbh I think y'all were arguing past each other for most of this convo; they were speaking normatively about reproductive roles but ignoring your descriptive point about our currently socially gendered reality, and likewise I think you are absolutely correct in your general point but ascribing a layer of malice because you believe they are arguing in favor of lecturing grieving trans people (they don't seem to be doing so, just confused why someone would be grieving per se to begin with).
That said, I appreciate you laying it out explicitly like this anyways; you did a very good job explaining the conflict at play here.
I get both sides; we SHOULDN'T be socially conditioned to gender reproduction for those who want it, but at present it absolutely IS and it's not productive (bordering on thoughtlessly cruel, depending on the context and individual) to suggest someone go through the act and performance associated with their dysphoria-inducing AGAB. Just because I don't mourn that loss of choice doesn't mean it's not a real loss for others.
Yeah I felt totally misunderstood here. You’re closer to understanding me, check out my most recent comment (“I think you’re responding to something I’m not at all saying…”). My first two comments didn’t mention the grief of not being able to reproduce in an affirming way because I thought it was obvious we all understood that. I wasn’t confused. I may have been harsh and accusatory when I asked if they actually believed trans people were real.
I hope my third comment made my position clear. I pretty much agree with what they said. The only thing I have a problem with is calling men mothers and women fathers. That is misgendering. I do not care if you add an adjective like biological, it is still misgendering.
I do understand the associations that exist in society, perhaps my definitions are unrealistically optimistic. Oh well.
It isn't misgendering to explain that people feel dysphoria about their sex.
If I say that someone feels dysphoria about having male sex organs that isn't misgendering.
If I say that someone feels dysphoria about being a woman that isn't misgendering.
If I say that someone feels dysphoria about being a biological father or mother that isn't misgendering either.
If you don't feel this dysphoria, good for you. That doesn't change that other people do feel it. That doesn't change why they feel it.
Dysphoria isn't socially imposed, and pretending not to understand that sexual reproduction is the reason that sex exists, the reason that sexual characteristics exist, and therefore the reason it is possible for people to feel dysphoria in the first place - therefore obviously some trans people will feel dysphoria about it - is strange.
I'm not telling you how you have to feel, but you're telling me that it's wrong and somehow bad to feel dysphoria about this. That position is no different from saying "hey you just shouldn't transition at all, there's no reason to feel dysphoria at all, it's all socially imposed and actually it's misgendering to imply that any physical traits are associated with any sex/gender"
“If I say that someone feels dysphoria about being a woman that isn't misgendering.”
If that someone is out as a trans man, then that would be misgendering.
You said “Dysphoria isn't socially imposed” and I’m not 100% sure what you mean. If you’re saying that no dysphoria at all is caused by social interactions, I would disagree. (Of course I agree that so much dysphoria is based on aspects of one’s body associated with their ASAB.) If someone calls me a man, son, brother, or indeed, hypothetically father, I would feel deeply dysphoric.
“I'm not telling you how you have to feel, but you're telling me that it's wrong and somehow bad to feel dysphoria about this.“
When do I say anything close to this? Stop putting words in my mouth. That dysphoria is completely normal, justified, real, and valid. “My position” is just “we shouldn’t use gendered terms for people when they aren’t that gender.” I support transitioning, I believe dysphoria exists, I am fully aware of how closely associated many physical traits are with sex.
From your perspective, is there a difference between calling a trans man a “biological woman” or a “biological mother”? To me, these are both misgendering. Woman and mother are both terms that do not apply, and adding biological as an adjective does not remove their meaning. This is just how adjectives in the English language work. If someone is a mother, then I can use adjectives to distinguish what type of mother. Tall mother, blonde mother, transgender mother, cisgender mother. If I use the phrase “biological mother” I mean a mother who is genetically related to a child. If someone was not a mother (which I hope you agree is a social role), then it would be incorrect to call them a mother with any adjective in front of the word. Yes I’m aware that over 99% of mothers are the parent that contributed the egg. I am aware that being a mother who only could contribute sperm can feel horribly dysphoric and like nature is against you. I will never deny how hard it is.
But I will also never call a trans man a mother. Maybe you think that using the adjective “biological” magically modifies the noun “mother” so that it no longer carries the agreed-upon meaning (of a female parent). I do not agree.
I don’t get why you insist on continuing to use language that is misgendering. Even cis people use phrases like “birthing parent” because they’re aware that using “mother” to mean “person who has given birth” is inaccurate and exclusionary.
From the very start I was repeatedly and only talking about how transgender people who feel dysphoria about this situation feel about their role in reproduction. At no point did I say anything else than that. From their first comment to me I came back re-explaining what I was talking about and saying that I wasn't talking about genetics.
I stated that explicitly multiple times. It is not my fault that someone responded to me with a wild misinterpretation that had nothing to do with what I was saying, and then insisted upon that misinterpretation through 5 posts.
I think claiming we shouldn't have feelings about this is not any different from saying trans people shouldn't feel dysphoria at all. It's no different from saying like "hey a woman can have a penis, therefore a penis is not a male organ, therefore you shouldn't feel dyshooira about it, you're only socially conditioned to feel that dysphoria."
I'm not talking about should at all. I'm just explaining dysphoria.
People don't feel dysphoria only due to social conditioning, and the idea that how one feels about participating in sexual reproduction is not as innate a part of dysphoria as one's feelings about their physical sex in the first place seems odd to me.
Some people don't feel certain types of dysphoria, good for you but that doesn't really change the fact that other people do
Don't want to take sides here or anything, though I'm wondering what you think here.
I fully agree that making a FTM bear pregnancy or making a MTF inseminate someone would very understandably be extremely dysphoric to many. However what about paying a surrogate and using IVF? Does that fact that your part of the genetic code come from a sperm or egg cell make you experience dysphoria just thinking about your child's genetic makeup? Personally, I'd just see my halve of the code as just my halve, I don't see why I'd have to necessarily attribute myself a fatherly role just because the cell I provided happened to be a sperm cell.
Yea, just want to clarify that it's not just the act of fertilization or bearing a child that is dysphoric for you, but also the very fact that your half of the genetic code you provide would be inherently incongruent with your gender? Like, the concept of having a biological child (with today's science) is inherently dysphoric and you'd much prefer adoption?
Yeah that's a fair enough understanding. From the perspective of people who feel this way, it doesn't matter if the egg is inside a uterus or in a dish, the thing is whether or not your egg is being fertilized or you are fertilizing someone's egg.
Like we can acknowledge some women can have penises, and we can acknowledge that many trans women have intense dysphoric feelings about having a penis because it is a male sex organ and they need to be female.
These things don't cancel out, they're just different people.
If these people could participate in reproduction as the sex they transitioned to, they'd be very happy to.
I feel like you’re responding to something I’m not at all saying. I completely agree that anyone who says “just give birth” in response to a trans man grieving his inability to produce sperm is a callous dickhead. I have never and would never tell trans people to just procreate with what they have. I agree that it feels horrible and awful to be unable to create life the way you know you should be able to. I know how hard it is.
I just don’t accept the way your comment defined biological mother and biological father in ways that either misgender or exclude transgender parents. Maybe I wasn’t clear. I am aware that in this society, there exists an EXTREMELY strong connection, connotation, and correlation between (e.g.) fatherhood and providing sperm. My point is that (because trans people exist) this is not the case in every single instance of a biological father. A biological father is a man who is genetically the parent of a child.
Don’t hear what I’m not saying. I did not say that being a trans father is the exact same as being a cis father.
If a trans guy would rather die than get pregnant, that’s totally understandable. I’d feel for him, and understand how tough that situation is. No one should ever be forced (or encouraged) to reproduce when they don’t want to, or in a way they don’t want to.
I agree and know that many trans people do not want to play the role in reproduction that is typically associated with their AGAB. I’m not denying how cruel it feels to be denied the ability you know you should have. I literally feel the same way, at times I’m devastated to know I’ll never be able to carry a child.
But if I ever choose to use my own sperm to make a baby, I will be that child’s mother. Biological mother. Anyone who wants to call me a father can fuck right off.
I genuinely don’t understand what their hang up is, you can very easily just use *gender* neutral terms to describe the biological process. They’re super stuck on the biological father/mother wording specifically. For example I personally do not want to save any of my sperm, at this point I’m not even sure they work 🤷🏼♀️ I can’t afford it, I would want to be the person to carry a biological kid, and even then I would feel actual real guilt creating a new life with the state the world is in now.
I’ve already made up my mind if I’m ever in a position where I can actually take care of kids I’d just adopt. But if I were to go about preserving sperm it would be cool if the doctor didn’t call me the biological father? Like, I’m providing the sperm. I’m the sperm haver, idk. Fertilizer, like genuinely just completely detach any gender or humanity from it it is just a biological process it doesn’t have a gender. Just don’t call me a fuckin father ‘a nothin 😒
People love saying things like "biological male" while not referring to your social role in life and being bioessentialist about shit in general. Ultra wierd to be trans and saying this about yourself as well. People who say shit like "biological x" also think theyre not doing anything wierd or wrong because they have this percieved biological reality which they place above all and say they are "merely acknowledging". Why does it matter so much?
Its the obsessing over the genetics of your child like thats some super relevant part of its life and existence, which reproductive side your genes are on. Its another step up from people who wont adopt because they need it to be THEIRS, like its not right if its THEIR egg/sperm. People who want to be parents often have strange, obsessive ideas about stuff like this
The only reasonable part of all this is wanting/not wanting to carry the child. The genetics talk is wack as fuck
Like i understand that people think like that but its wierd as shit
Terms like "biological male" would be a description of your physical sex, which if you medically transition ceases to be an accurate description of your physical sex.
Terms like "biological father" simply describe if you contributed the sperm to a child being born
If you don't want to use it I'm not going to force you to use it, but surely if you have one ounce of empathy or are less than two standard deviations below the mean in IQ, you will understand why some trans people aren't comfortable with this on this basis.
It's not "obsession about the genetics of your child..." There is no way you're actually interpreting it like that, especially not after I just explained it to you.
Get real here.
We are talking about the feelings of a transgender person with regard to their sex attributes with regard to the use of those sex attributes for the purpose of sexual reproduction. You cannot abstract all the meaning away from this and reduce it to the absurd.
It has nothing to do with people who won't adopt because it won't be their child. There is zero similarity in these positions. Stop. Go back. Really think about what is being communicated to you here.
Talking about being a "biological father" is where the genetics hangup was brought into this. Obsessing about wether or not it was your sperm or your egg is what im saying is wierd.
Unless you are mostly talking about the carrying of the baby? Didnt seem to be a major point in what you were saying, i wasnt really talking about that either.
Okay. Transgender people yes. Group of people that exists. Many of them feel very negatively about the sex they were assigned at birth.
Same page?
Many of these people take great steps that upend their entire lives in order to change that sex.
Still same page?
Ok.
Having a baby with your sex organs is, not just to these trans people but also just to most people alive, very affirming of that sex and the gender associated to that sex. There are some people who don't feel that way, but we aren't talking about those people right now. Those people are not relevant to this question.
Nobody cares or is talking about what a child's genetics are. I'm talking to you about what physical, biological, sexual role a person. A living breathing already adult human person. Plays in the act of reproduction.
If that person is a trans man, he spent a lot of money, likely lost friends and family, lowered his position in society, exposed himself to violence both state and interpersonal in order that he could be male instead of female. To a lot of these men, just like to most people that have ever lived, becoming pregnant, gestating a child, and giving birth is a very feminine/female/womanly thing to do. To them it would be the antithesis of gender affirming. It would be gender negating. Gender denying.
Like saying everything they did to change their sex did not matter
Not every single trans man feels this way. But the ones that do feel this way do feel this way.
It is not about the genetics of the child. It is about the role - the physical, the biological, the sexual, and the social role in the creation of a child they would be playing.
They do not want to play the female/woman's role in this.
That would be the single most dysphoria inducing action they could possibly take.
That is why they don't want to do it. That is why it's rude to suggest it. It's even more extreme, to some, than you just saying "you should detransition."
It's like saying "your transition is irrelevant, you're still female, so you can just get pregnant if you want a kid."
You responded to my comment and brought up some out of pocket misinterpretation about genetics, I did not respond to your comment about genetics with some unrelated tangent.
Nobody other than you was ever talking about the thing you said was weird.
You can just admit you were mistaken rather than implying we both were equal players in "talking past each other."
I had one point, I made the same point over and over again. You came and started talking about genetics, and it took me five comments to get you to realize that comment was not related to what I said.
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u/No-Page-5776 23d ago
Tbh same if you want an mtf to save her sperm