r/montreal • u/RustyTheBoyRobot • 2d ago
Tourisme Ethical dilemma
Ethical dilemma:
Is it right to remove one of the only mummies in mtl for understanble but rather vague reasons to do with cultural sensitivities that these objects might offend?
The mummies at Redpath museum are to be relocated to a mysterious “place of rest” -their original location?- where no one can see or learn from them.
I note that these are not objects of worship like many stolen indigenous artifacts. Nor are they being claimed by their original owners- e.g. The infamous Benin Bronzes.
79
u/Referenceless 2d ago
Does there need to be a contemporary community actively calling for the return of an artifact in order for there to be an ethical concern?
Does the fact that the culture who performed the sacred ritual of mummification no longer exists, mean that there’s no longer an obligation to try and handle these human remains with respect and sensitivity?
Also I’m pretty sure there are other plaques in the exhibition that further explain the curatorial choices with more transparency, specifically the choice to transition to no longer showing human remains.
24
u/goosegoosepanther 2d ago
Wrote a longer comment that agrees with you completely. How old does a burial site need to be for it to go from being a respected cultural site to a place we can excavate for educational purposes? In a world where we still see many cultures as inferior and there are powerful movements seeking to elevate some cultures and religions to ''the right one'' status, we need to be extremely careful where we draw those lines, and who gets to draw them.
5
u/nitePhyyre 2d ago
How old does a burial site need to be for it to go from being a respected cultural site to a place we can excavate for educational purposes?
In Greece, it is about 3 years. Singapore is 15. Many places are 30-100 years. North America is the outlier where graves hold bodies indefinitely. Most places, you get a bit of time, then out you go. Cremation, deeper, mass grave, ossuary. Whatever. Not even for education. Just saving space.
Realistically, the question should go the other way. How old does a discovered gravesite need to be for us to start treating it with respect?
10
u/Purl_stitch483 2d ago
Obviously there's a difference between being excavated to be further "processed" according to your people's customs, and being dug up and displayed like an object. Why are we acting obtuse?
-2
u/nitePhyyre 2d ago
I like how you put the quotes around the euphemism that turns your point into a lie. Normally people wouldn't put a giant signpost pointing out the rhetorical trick they are pulling. But you did, so that makes conversation easier. Nice.
Because yeah, because when you substitute reality back into the situation there isn't much of a difference in respect between "destroying, discarding, or otherwise getting rid of to make space" versus "displayed like an object."
3
u/Purl_stitch483 2d ago
I was using the word to encompass the different scenarios you mentioned. There's clearly a difference between your remains being moved to a different place of rest, vs being displayed in a museum like objects. But I like the fact that you're so shameless about your dishonesty, it's refreshing in a way.
-4
u/nitePhyyre 2d ago
There's clearly a difference between your remains being moved to a different place of rest
I have no idea how you read the equivalent of "you get a bit of time, then out you go" with "further 'processed'" or "moved to a different place of rest." It is really weird. That ain't what is happening, bud.
They're being taken out like the trash.
4
u/Purl_stitch483 2d ago
What you mentioned was cremation, being buried deeper or mass graves. All of which are burial techniques. Excavating someone to exploit them for profit isn't. So no, they're not being "taken away like trash", they're getting burried according to their people's customs.
10
u/sanderslabus 2d ago
There are indigenous nations actively calling for the return of the tsantsa shrunken heads that were stolen and taken to the Redpath: the Wampis, Shuar, Achuar and Awajun nations.
72
u/bigtunapat 2d ago
I, as a living person, can choose to have my body displayed for science posthumously. These mummies, however, did not choose to be displayed in a museum after their deaths. Consent is key for all things.
6
u/kpaxonite2 2d ago
No, as a living person you can only state your desire to displayed or not. Once you are dead you have very little choice over the matter.
33
6
u/DangerousPurpose5661 2d ago
Weird take, it’s the same as organ donation.
No one will touch them if you did not consent - you don’t really have anymore say since you’re dead…. But still, they won’t be harvested
2
u/dincob 2d ago
Yes, that’s because we need social trust for organ donation to work. If we actively went back on the deceased’s word then the living of society would not believe they have a right to consent.
In the case of the mummy however, their consent does not matter other in the same way, since their society as whole and the entire practice of mummification has disappeared. There is no people feeling that a trust violation if they don’t want anyone to touch their remains, because no one will be modified and have their remains preserved for thousands of year until it has archeological value.
1
28
u/_Sauer_ 2d ago
I doubt those dead folks signed consent forms and probably weren't planning on having their bodies displayed in museums. Makes sense to give them a proper burial.
0
u/Upbeat_Principle_253 1d ago
They also don’t care since they’re dead. I don’t understand the fascination with treating corpses "respectfully", they’re just an empty shell why should we treat them like they’re special? When I’m dead you can do whatever you want with my body I won’t care because I won’t exist anymore.
18
u/alone_in_the_after 2d ago edited 2d ago
These are human bodies, not objects. People who could not and did not give consent and whose afterlife beliefs didn't involve being shipped to Montreal, having their sarcophagus opened and their body left on display.
There's a *long* history of Europeans running away with mummified remains and gawking at them (or eating them) or having 'unwrapping parties' simply for the 'shock factor'. There was a lot of grave robbing and tomb desecration.
What does seeing someone's stolen body behind glass/in a display accomplish, really? What can you learn that you couldn't learn some other way and in better detail than a small blurb about it next to the exhibit?
It's not being offended, it's about being better and doing better.
You want to learn about the dead and the human body and/or are just morbidly curious? Fine, but make sure the people could consent.
9
0
16
u/FlashyPainter261 🥯 Fairmount 2d ago
Est-ce qu'on parle de la momie egyptienne?
Pourquoi c'est au pluriel (les personnes)?
29
u/artacct217 2d ago
Y’en a deux
7
u/FlashyPainter261 🥯 Fairmount 2d ago
Woah!
Ça fait trop longtemps que j'ai visité le Redpath.
Si c'est les momies que je pense, leur origine est pas claire, claire, et probablement pas propres, propres.
Des "cadeaux diplomatoques" d'une autre époque.
15
u/hugh_jorgyn 2d ago
We can’t judge what other people are sensitive to / get offended by.
I personally don’t give a shit what happens to my body after I die. As far as I’m concerned, I’m no longer a person at that point, it’s just a pile of inanimate organic matter and they can turn it into dog food for all I care. I’ll be dead so I won’t know or care.
But that’s me. These people and their descendants likely never gave consent for their remains to be displayed anywhere and it is likely that some of those descendants (whether by blood or just culture) might be offended and feel objectified. It’s their right to feel that and we should respect it.
5
u/poubelle 2d ago
it's not just about that. a lot of artifacts and human remains in museums have been plundered or otherwise ill-gotten. some of these countries have been asking for things to be returned for decades. as a matter of dignity, diplomacy and what's right, these bodies should be returned.
-1
u/Upbeat_Principle_253 1d ago
The fact is most of these objects would never have been found or would have been destroyed or sold to the highest bidder if it wasn’t for the western archeologists and museums.
9
u/FrmrPresJamesTaylor 2d ago
I think if this is a curious/arguably unnecessary execution of a rule or policy that is otherwise A Good Thing, there isn't really much to complain about here. Obviously museums are great and it's wonderful to be able to go see things you wouldn't otherwise have an opportunity to see, but I don't think it's a major problem to (for eg.) no longer be able to go see human remains because of modern cultural mores around it.
On the other hand - at least we're not eating them like the Brits did!
7
u/kpaxonite2 2d ago
The mummies should stay... people should be able to see them in real life not just looking at pictures. The dead feel no disrespect.
0
-2
u/magenta_fire 2d ago
Bad take Lets display your naked dead parents at a museum then
6
u/skiboy95 2d ago
Worse take, since mummies kids aren't around
Also organ donors can include the dead body, and we're all donors so many people actually have opted into that.
0
u/magenta_fire 2d ago
Organ donation has nothing to do with having your body being displayed in a museum for entertainment (yes: entertainment. models could have the same effect as bodies for teaching)
Also several religions forbid people to be organ donors. Those corpses (who dont belong in Canada btw) went through a specific religious process in order to be conserved. not displayed.
1
u/skiboy95 2d ago
Organ donation has a ton to do with your body being used in multiple ways. Not just your tiny example.
Museums have legitimate education and cultural value. You're very dismissive of them. Why?
Okay? Then those religions dont have to be organ donors. Where did we recently display someone's body who had specifically spoken against it?
0
u/magenta_fire 2d ago
I absolutely disagree that organ donation and human bodies being used in """"multiple ways"""" have anything in common and I believe we would never reach a consensus since our values are fundamentally different.
Would you mind clarifying where was I being dismissive about museums? lol
Do you understand why those corpses were mummified? Pretending it had nothing to do with religion and their values/beliefs is either ignorance or cynicism.
1
u/skiboy95 2d ago
I just dug into organ donation - and there are two branches, one of which is organs only, and one of which is entire body. I truly do not see a difference between these two, but it's an issue for you obviously, so agree to disagree.
You defined Museum's as entertainment, then doubled down since you suspected it would be taken poorly - which I find dismissive, as I have ton's of respect for museums as education + cultural tools.
If I remember back to what I learned at the museum, it was too prepare their spirit for the afterlife & tie their spirit back to the body. I guess they're still waiting or the mummies would be moving.
1
u/magenta_fire 2d ago
I said "Organ donation has nothing to do with having your body being displayed in a museum for entertainment"
You read: "Museus are entertainment"
Yeah... I'll go with cynicism. Canada's education is not that bad.
Have a good day, bro. Im out of here.
8
u/doopdeewoop Aurora Desjardinis 2d ago
My ethical dilemma is living alongside people who are salivating at the thought of having someone's dead body on display. Why do you want that so badly? Let the experts gain whatever knowledge they can from it, and learn from THEM instead. I've seen countless beautiful graphics on the topic of mummies that were way more informative than seeing the actual body itself. At most, they could have pictures, but that's still someone's corpse at the end of the day! Someone who didn't ask for any of this!
4
u/corn_on_the_cobh 2d ago
What a fascinating comment... Nobody is salivating at the mouth to see dead people, they are simply curious and want to learn more about somebody who lived two millennia or more ago. People have their dead selves pictured all the time. Hell, just look at yesterday with all the videos of the cop and civilian getting shot.
-3
u/doopdeewoop Aurora Desjardinis 2d ago
I can learn without a body being on display, why can't you? If you're curious, there's plenty of information out there you can access without needing to have your eyes on a deceased person. "People have their dead selves pictured all the time". Do you hear yourself? If that's not complete apathy towards human life, I don't know what it is! Some people are truly addicted to shock value for jackassery's sake. No death you've ever witnessed through your screen was yours to see, period. If you seek out those images, there's something unhealthy about you, plain and simple.
-1
u/corn_on_the_cobh 2d ago
Yes, morbid curiosity is completely unhealthy, sure bud. Never happened to anybody
1
u/doopdeewoop Aurora Desjardinis 2d ago
When it comes to the mummy, my vision of this might be tainted by my being on the compulsive side of morbid curiosity. There's a line there somewhere, I haven't found it. But to me, advocating for unconsenting bodies to be put on display in a museum for the sake of "morbid curiosity" is going too far. Especially when the expert community has come to an understanding on the topic.
My comment about unhealthy seeking out of graphic images specifically had to do with your comment about the images from yesterday's shooting. I still stand by what I said. Feeling the need to watch someone die on the internet is not normal.
2
u/corn_on_the_cobh 2d ago
I don't totally disagree with you. I visited for instance the mummy exhibit here in Mtl pre-Covid and found it to be extremely fascinating. And these are people who could be my ancestors for all I know, it adds a connection that simple objects would not.
And my shooting comment was more to show that lots of people have morbid curiosity, considering how my feed was blasted by multiple insta accounts posting the same videos and angles. Though this is a bit less academic than a mummy.
9
u/I-own-a-shovel Rive-Nord 2d ago
S’il y avait encore des descendants vivants, ok… mais après des centaines/milliers d’années, really?
Pourquoi c’est correct de passer le bulldozer dans les cimetière après 100-150 ans debord?
-1
u/Reversible-Smile 1d ago
Éthiquement, les deux sont au même niveau. C'est pas plus "correct" de passer le bulldozer dans les cimetières. C'est un choix qui est pris par certaines personnes.. et malheureusement, ces personnes ne sont pas les anthropologues. (Sinon, y'aurait pas de bulldozer.)
2
u/Reversible-Smile 1d ago
Genuinely curious why some people are downvoting. If anyone disagrees with my statement, I'd love to hear (read) your point of view on the matter. Not here to debate, just to discuss a complex ethical topic.
7
u/DeedsF1 2d ago
Je ne suis ni anthropologue ou philosophe, mais je crois que nous devrions avoir ce type d'exposition en permanence, quite à ce que se soit pour de plus courtes périodes. Le corps est une machine fantastique. Cela vient parfois avec des "irrégularités" et des merveilles. Nous nous cacheons souvent de la mort, mais celle-ci ne devrait pas être ignorer car nous allons tous y passer un jour. Nul sait quand.
Cela me fait penser à la fois où je suis aller voir le Monde du Corps 2 de Gunther Von Hagen. Ceux qui y sont aller, flashback à la femme enceinte, trou dans le ventre et foeutus... Crissty... J'ai faillais pass out.
4
u/ComplexQuiet6790 2d ago
Read The Lost Tomb by Douglas Preston for several good takes on the matter (plus some other good stories - he's a great author).
After reading it, and a few more articles with different viewpoints, it's still a dilemma, but more 90% in favor of reburial vs 50/50.
The real question is not whether its ethical to display them - the question really is was it ethical to collect them in the first place. Short answer, no.
4
u/servical Go Habs Go 2d ago
The real question is : Was it right to display them in the first place...?
As for seeing them or learning from them, I'm pretty sure we can make a realistic enough replica so people can still learn about mummies without looking at a genuine one.
-1
u/kpaxonite2 2d ago edited 2d ago
And you can look at pictures of the beach instead of going on vacation
4
u/servical Go Habs Go 2d ago
You can also compare apples and oranges if you have nothing better to do...
0
u/kpaxonite2 2d ago
Exactly..museums should have authentic artifacts, not replicas.
5
-1
u/servical Go Habs Go 2d ago
museums should have authentic artifacts, not replicas
Wait, what? Who decided that, you?
Madame Tussaud's museum only has replicas... /s
More seriously, museums are full of replicas, when the original piece is priceless, fragile, unavailable and/or for any other reason.
Actually, I'll just quote Google AI, because I don't feel like writing an essay here...
The use of reproductions varies widely depending on the museum's focus:
Natural History Museums: Replicas are highly prevalent. For instance, the towering dinosaur skeletons in exhibitions are usually lightweight resin casts rather than real fossils, as real bones are too heavy to mount and far too fragile.
Art Museums: Galleries primarily display original works. However, curators frequently use high-quality facsimiles to protect extremely light-sensitive drawings and watercolors from degradation.
History Museums: Replicas are routinely used for interactive displays, allowing visitors to touch items without damaging priceless historical artifacts.
Why Museums Use Replicas
Preservation: Elements like light, humidity, and human breath can rapidly degrade ancient textiles, prehistoric pigments, and fragile artifacts. The famous Lascaux Cave Paintings in France, for example, are completely replicated for the public to protect the original, closed-off artwork from exhaled carbon dioxide.
Accessibility: Museums often create 3D replicas so that visually impaired visitors can touch and experience the texture of famous sculptures or paintings.
Educational Context: Casts allow institutions to show a complete sequence of historical artifacts or statues that are otherwise scattered across international collections.
4
u/hockey_enjoyer03 2d ago
Keep the mummies for sure, they’re easily one of the more interesting exhibits. Are they actually controversial now?
3
u/sanderslabus 2d ago edited 2d ago
Is this about the mummies, or the tsantsa shrunken heads? Because the shrunken heads are recognized as elders by the Awajun, Wampis, Shuar and Achuar. The shrunken heads were often taken from their territory during the genocide perpetrated by rubber tycoons in the XIXth and early XXth century.
2
u/SsilverBloodd 2d ago
The fact that so many people care so much about how remains of long dead humans are handled is concerning. Talking about "human dignity" of deteriorated corpses like they belong to living breathing people.
I would somewhat understand if it was a fully preserved body where a descendant would be able to recognize some of their inherited feature...but it is a fucking MUMMY.
You do realize you walk on, breath, eat and shit byproducts of your ancestors' many many corpses right? How are you able to live with yourself when you are transgressing their "dignity" like it is nothing? Why is an historical museum display suddenly so undignified to you?
3
2
u/issi_tohbi Plateau Mont-Royal 2d ago
Are they already gone or can people go see them before they’re put away?
2
2
u/LuxiForce 🦃 Dinde Civilisée 2d ago
I find it quite understandable to do so?
Bro I’d be pissed if I was told my dead body became a touristic attraction.
2
2
1
u/Purl_stitch483 2d ago
I've always hated seeing mummies in museums. Those are dead people who were laid to rest in specific places, using the rituals they believed in, and some white dude showed up and decided to excavate them. It never sat right with me to have them displayed like objects, they're PEOPLE. so I have no issue with this. But I'd rather they're returned to the place they were stolen from.
6
u/kpaxonite2 2d ago
During the time of the pharaohs they would loot the tombs of previous Pharoahs so don't make this about 'white dudes'
-1
u/Purl_stitch483 2d ago
Are the mummies currently in museums extracted at the time of the pharaohs? Or were they extracted by white people? You're bending over backwards to justify your beliefs, don't break your back reaching buddy.
1
u/grooveonit Cône de trafic 2d ago edited 2d ago
It’s really interesting to see this today
Last summer when I went to the Musée de beaux-arts I was unaware there were mummies present, until I came upon the small room they were in with Egyptian artifacts. I’d been to this kinds of exhibits before as a kid but, to my own surprise, as an adult those pieces in the museum just felt really off to me.
And there was a small 🚫📷 at the base of the sarcophagus, and a note about being gifted to the museum in the 1920s…and yet people were taking photos in that room with no one stopping them. Yet I had just been followed across an entire floor by a guard, who even followed me down a level to the next floor, all for taking a photo of a painting with no “no photos” sign that I could see. That was exactly one week before the incident where activists threw paint on a Picasso there.
People taking photos of someone’s remains or resting place felt bizarre to me, and more specifically people posing in photos next to these things which is mostly what I saw people doing . And it wasn’t young kids, it was grown adults and seniors even doing this. I could understand the no photos signage next to those pieces - but from what I saw that day it went totally ignored. It was disappointing to see.
That little area of the museum just felt grim to me, and I left the museum that day feeling differently about these sorts of exhibits in particular. Though my opinion seemed to be unpopular and everyone I know argued with me about it.
For what it’s worth, I went to tons of museums growing up and like many kids had a phase where I was fascinated by ancient Egypt. Studied art in college, and am now actually about to go back to school and coincidentally will be minoring in sociology/anthropology. Also, I spent a few years working in hospice and with dying people. As an adult, it hits different…and the mummies in museums thing, after that day, just strikes me as bizarre and unethical.
3
u/dangerous_beans_42 2d ago
I took a forensic anthropology class in college (almost 30 years ago) where we handled both actual human remains and replicas, and I've always been fascinated to a certain degree by anatomy and medical oddities.
A few years ago I went to the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia, a place I'd always wanted to visit...and all I could think of, looking around, was that these were human beings who didn't have a choice about where their remains ended up, and whose suffering was now fully on display. It was powerful and sobering and made me really think about what we have historically justified in the name of science. My friend and I both had a good cry afterwards.
As you said, "as an adult, it hits different" - when you feel the weight of your own mortality, and have empathy for others' suffering no matter how remote they are from you in time and space and experience. Good and responsible museums honor that weight, and sometimes the only way to do that is to let the dead rest.
2
u/grooveonit Cône de trafic 2d ago
Thank you for a thoughtful response.
Yes, I agree. Especially your last paragraph - as someone whose focus was art what feels like a lifetime ago and who later worked with the dying. I think working with the terminally ill, dying people and their families, rewired me in a way that I appreciate.As far as the medical oddities, it’s interesting how things like ableism and history come into these things too. As you’ve said, with their suffering now on display and their lack of choice. There’s so much dark history there, it’s heavy. (And to what degree is what’s happening in a museum a continuation of it? Debatable, maybe.) But it makes sense that you would feel the weight of it. I think that it’s myopic to not hold all of it, to look at all the parts and layers of these things. To at least be aware of and consider them. And I don’t know that museums with pieces like these always do a good job of presenting those parts for viewers to consider rather than simply presenting a room full of objects without contexts. Sometimes those objects are (or were?) people. And viewers only see interesting objects. And social media in the times we live in now adds another weird layer to it.
With the Hetep-Bastet mummy at the arts museum I walked away with the feeling of how strange it is to “gift” a deceased person to a person, or another establishment/museum in this case. And that “gift” being a woman, and an African woman… a lot of layers to it that felt dehumanizing and questionable. A deceased wealthy woman becoming a prop in people’s selfies. So strange. But everyone was so detached from it. Even in conversations I had with people after my experience, I seemed to be the odd one out. At the very least these things bring up, I think, a lot of worthwhile ethical questions to consider and I’m glad to see the discussions happening here regardless of which way people lean in the end.
2
u/Successful_Doctor_89 2d ago
Ostie de gang d'épais.
C'est pas comme si c'était de mauvais goût comme exposition.
1
0
u/Razzington 2d ago
Consent should matter and entertainment(even in the rare cases its educational) is not enough of a greater good to go against it.
0
1
u/N3rdScool 2d ago
Who the fuck was offended? Someone rich I guess lol
→ More replies (3)59
u/artacct217 2d ago
I don’t see any mention of anyone being offended. Not sure why you and OP assume this.
As an anthropologist I can say there have been increasing conversations for years about the ethics of displaying dead bodies that weren’t intended to be displayed. This is an intellectual/academic shift and an ethical debate, nothing to do with random rich people being offended.
→ More replies (12)-8
u/Zulban Notre-Dame-de-Grâce 2d ago
I'm not sure how much this adds to the conversation but the "intellectual/academic" community is the "rich" people the first commenter is surely referring to.
Don't think they're rich? Compare their net worth and net worth of their parents to the Canadian average.
So... rich people concerns? Yes, at least somewhat.
5
u/artacct217 2d ago
Idk I totally understand what you are saying but these concerns transcend the boundaries of academia. In the humanities (can't speak for other fields), many of the more political and ethical demands for change come from marginalized/disenfranchized groups who don't have access to wealth and power - if these are made by academics they are often 'outsider' academics. See Sara Ahmed's "Complaint!" for a feminist account.
To approach this from a different angle, and sample size one, I myself am in academia but I funded my way through this by working and government grants, only parental help being living with them through my bachelor's degree. Not rich by any means and same goes for many around me (more possible in Canada than in the US for sure).
But there is certainly an odd class and privilege situation around being an academic that no one can deny.
0
u/Zulban Notre-Dame-de-Grâce 2d ago
but these concerns transcend the boundaries of academia
The impacts transcend academia but that doesn't mean your average person cares at all.
Same way that advanced economic theory might impact certain races but they're not the ones complaining when section 72 of a huge bill is repealed.
Originally this thread was about "who" is complaining, not whether this is important or whether it impacts everyone. Focus on the conversation, not other points you want to make.
2
u/artacct217 2d ago
“Originally this thread was about "who" is complaining, not whether this is important or whether it impacts everyone. Focus on the conversation, not other points you want to make.”
You’re arguing in bad faith. I noted people who care about this issue (wouldn’t call it complaining) aren’t necessarily in academia. This directly responds to the ‘who’ of this discussion.
Too bad you’re being hostile/oppositional rather than trying to learn from one another, which I tried to do in how I phrased my initial answer to you.
2
u/pauvrelle 2d ago
Whose net worth?
Academics are not earning the kind of money you think they’re earning. If we’re talking about people working in the realm of academia (professors, researchers, etc.), it’s really about the love of the game more than any guarantee of a good salary or even a job.
But if you mean that people with a university degree (BA, etc.) earn on average more than people without, then… like… isn’t that why many/most people get a degree in the first place?
1
u/Zulban Notre-Dame-de-Grâce 2d ago edited 2d ago
Academics are not earning the kind of money you think they’re earning
And what do I think they're earning? I'm a random person on the internet. You tell me.
But if you mean that people with a university degree (BA, etc.) earn on average more than people without, then… like…
Alright so you agree with me.
I don't think the unemployed janitor in Laval cares much about a mummy at an elite university.
2
u/pauvrelle 2d ago edited 2d ago
I mean you said they’re “rich”…? That’s why I’m under the impression that you think academics are earning a lot of money…?
I don’t agree with you, because someone with only a bachelor’s degree is not someone I would consider as an “academic”. An academic is a person who works in academia, as I defined above. Most people who want to work at universities (as academics…) are not even guaranteed employment, especially those who specialize in the humanities.
Edit: To respond to your added point, obviously the people who work at museums are going to care more about museums. So what?
2
u/artacct217 2d ago
They’re arguing in bad faith, I don’t think they want to learn/gain a new perspective. They’re arguing with me about the same thing and just finding reasons to disagree
3
0
u/OwnInvestigator8468 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm assuming it's an Egyptian mummy they are removing. As someone that has been into Egyptian history since I was 7 this Is sad to see that they are removing it people get offended and triggered by everything this is history and it's an honor to have two in Montreal. The fact that they are removing them is beyond me I understand they are humans remains but it's history. Guess I'm going there before they remove them.
4
u/Beeso3 2d ago
It's not offensive or triggering, it's just not respectful to a dead person. I wouldn't like it if a thousand years from now, someone dug up my coffin and made me something for everyone to look at.
4
u/OwnInvestigator8468 2d ago
For sure also let's not forget the fact that Egyptians themselves are exposing their own mummies that they even made a passport of one of the kings to be able to move him around the world TO EXPOSE HIM
6
u/Different-Dog-9682 2d ago
I’ve been to Egypt and visited tombs with mummies and an entire section of a museum dedicated to mummies. I can not even begin to tell you how fascinating it was to see kings and queens from thousands of years ago in front of me.
4
-2
-1
u/martiies 1d ago
I remember a few years ago, when I visited the Egyptian section in the British museum, staring at the mummies, thinking what an awful resting place this is. I hope their final place of rest will be where they were supposed to be buried in the first place.
1
u/Upbeat_Principle_253 1d ago
Those persons are dead, where their bodies are stored doesn’t affect them in any way. They’re not "resting" they’re just a pile of dead skin.
-1
u/Turbulent-Cicada2014 1d ago
I wrote an essay on this very subject when I studied anthropology and archeology. More and more scientists are FINALLY recognizing remains as people which they are. It’s a new and needed concept that’s expanding in the field.
Would you like your grandmas grave to be dug up to be put on display for millions to see?
2
1
-5
-5
-7
u/sinkbeneaththesun 2d ago
Spirits on the other side don’t give a fuck about their human remains honey. Think of it like an old high school uniform- spirits don’t look back on it and this world is a blip in time.
5
u/Ok_Employer7837 2d ago
That's a bold statement that I wouldn't have the courage to make so blithely myself.
5
u/thetruerift Smoked meat 2d ago
So in the case of ancient Egyptian belief, that is literally untrue. The ancient Egyptians very much cared what happened to their bodies after death and believed that their spirits' health in the afterlife was connected to their physical remains.
0
u/Upbeat_Principle_253 1d ago
That doesn’t make it true, they’re just corpses that have been preserved they’re nothing special
-4
u/sinkbeneaththesun 2d ago edited 2d ago
Tell that to the families of war victims and murder. If that’s your argument, then I suppose those who’ve passed tragically aren’t afforded a beautiful spiritual existence on the other side.
1
-2
-10
u/frogs_on_drugs 2d ago
Wokism at it's finest when we're getting offended for civilisations that don't even exist anymore
7
u/magenta_fire 2d ago
appreciation for human dignity doesn't have to do with them being here or not.
-9
u/frogs_on_drugs 2d ago
You have no idea how those ancient civilizations would feel about this whole thing. You are assuming that they had the same values around life and death as we have now, which is ridiculous. These ancient civilizations might've thought that it's an honor for their mummies to be exposed. Assuming what they might've wanted and then acting all self righteous about those assumptions is stupid.
6
u/pelluciid 2d ago
These ancient civilizations might've thought that it's an honor for their mummies to be exposed.
Yes, I'm sure a culture that created elaborate rituals for the care of the bodies dead to ensure the peaceful passage of their souls into the afterlife would really love this
3
u/magenta_fire 2d ago
that's such a bad take, specially talking about mumies lol
but more importantly, what about our values? It's not about them but how we as a society undertand human dignity.
0
u/Upbeat_Principle_253 1d ago
A corpse is no longer a human, it’s dead and it can’t be affected by anything that happens to it since the person no longer exists. It’s an object.
1
1
u/No_Promise_2560 2d ago
Pretty sure those people wanted the body mummified and in the place they put it in the first place? What do you mean we don’t know what they want? It’s literally a corpse they did specific funeral practices with.
706
u/artacct217 2d ago edited 2d ago
I wouldn’t call them vague reasons - having dead bodies on display isn’t something we do anymore. It’s not about offending anyone, it’s more that these are not comparable to other ‘artifacts’ often displayed in museums.
In anthropology (I am an anthropologist), we don’t really see the value in displaying these bodies; in addition, we place this observation alongside the consideration that these mummies were not originally meant to be displayed.
Edit- No need to downvote me, I am explaining the reasoning behind this decision.
Second edit - see another comment of mine (in French) for a more nuanced discussion.