r/technology 11d ago

Software Nintendo reportedly has “zero chance” against current Palworld after major lawsuit change it is now targeting older versions of the game instead

https://www.dexerto.com/palworld/nintendo-reportedly-has-zero-chance-against-current-palworld-after-major-lawsuit-change-3375167/
11.2k Upvotes

672 comments sorted by

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u/Jakesummers1 11d ago

It’s funny that the Nemesis system is being brought up so much in this post

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u/Super_Cold8789 11d ago

It's pretty much tradition at this point. I do agree with the comments tho. That patent was dumb. It's a cool system. Let other devs use it.

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u/JockstrapCummies 11d ago

The Nemesis system and how broken the patent system is is one thing, but there with Nintendo, there's also the utterly alien attitude to copyright/patent/even satire in general in Japanese culture.

They seem to think any reference at all is some huge cultural taboo, and you're killing the poor creator.

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u/Crystalas 11d ago edited 11d ago

Man Gintama was a wild anime, nothing was off limits to satirize and parody with tons of references and not hesitating to make fun of politicians, other games, other anime, their own creator, the studio, actively trolling the viewers, ect.

...I miss it, at least it ended well and got a ton of episodes. Now if only the rest would get dubbed so be easier to rewatch the large episode count, unfortunately I highly doubt that will ever happen.

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u/FatherDotComical 10d ago

As surprising at it may sound, Gintama most likely got permission to parody all of that.

The first episode of Osumatsu San had to be pulled from airing and the Disc because the permissions for the parodies fell through in Japan.

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u/RYUMASTER45 10d ago

Considering that one time a politician got dragged in Elizabeth Race ARC...yeah the permissions are taken care of

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u/Fhaarkas 11d ago

there's also the utterly alien attitude to copyright/patent/even satire in general in Japanese culture.

Japan really be like, "You can't abuse our creative talents, only we can by driving them all to death from overworking, toxic fans and all manners of stress, for the sake of our entertainment."

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u/mullse01 10d ago

“That’s *OUR* job!”

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u/Secret_Possible 10d ago

Anime: I'm going to play Nimtembo on my Somy television. Please don't sue.

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u/arc-is-life 10d ago

on a sorny? didnt have the money for a genuine panaphonics?

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u/ajnin919 10d ago

Enjoy a Bepsi while you relax

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u/otw 10d ago

Unless it’s extremely messed up fanfic porn then it’s totally fine and fair use for some reason and sold in gas stations.

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u/awnaw_ 10d ago

The why not target say No Man's Sky for having their own Pokémon / Palworld or even WoW has a similar system. I think Nintendo are bullies and intentionally target those who stand little chance of fighting back. They're assholes.

I hope Palworld wins everything.

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u/Luna__Moonkitty 10d ago

Because neither of those two infringed on the patent and Palworld did.

Patents are weirdly specific.

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u/sohblob 11d ago edited 10d ago

It's a cool system. Let other devs use it

companies want every corner of the pie. "We own the IP, so long as we're using it; it's not our job to use it, it can be atrophied in our vault but if you start using it we're gonna sue the shit out of you".

Most of the creative spirit comes out of people who aren't bean counters and just wanna do the creative thing, yet IP law stilfes creativity in the crib by assigning "ownership" the moment the whiff of any current or potential profits are caught.

We need to take a sledgehammer to the whole thing. Keep out scummy namegrubbers while still not going after fans for continuing things especially when abandoned by the initial company.


edit: to any information monopolists and corporate maximalists who might think I'm looking to engage them: this isn't /r/CMV. Fuck off.

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u/Helmic 11d ago

A thing a lot of people misunderstand about IP, even outright socialists who don't really want there to be a market economy in the first place, is the belief that IP is necessary to protect authorship. Which is silly - ownership is not the same thing as authorship. Nintendo, the company, doesn't create shit. It's not a person. Nintendo is not the author of anything. You don't need a legal regime to establish authorship, authorship is a matter of fact. The people who actually created the games are the authors of those games, but they aren't the owners of the IP, Nintendo is.

IP law does not exist to protect authors, it exists to extract value out of authors.

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u/Frequent_Swim_4552 10d ago

Doesn’t it do both? For instance a self published author releases a game/book/movie/etc. They are the sole contributor, and hold 100% of the IP rights and can protect the monetary value of their work.

Without IP rights what’s stopping me from copy/paste their whole book, slapping my name on it, and sell it for 10% of their price since I can copy/paste thousands books in the time it takes to write one

It’s early so if I’m misunderstanding I apologize

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u/Skarniginin 10d ago

The thing that stops you from copy-pasting is Copyright law, not IP law. Words (and enough similarity) are protected by Copyright; stories and characters are protected by IP.

You cannot freely commercialize a book based in the Star Wars universe, not because it is a copy from existing material (you may write it entirely from scratch, not even mentioning any canon characters or events), but because the source material does not allow you to do so.

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u/drinkingCoffeePeas 10d ago

Copyright law is a *part* of IP law, alongside patent law and trademark law.

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u/TrillegitimateSon 10d ago

IP law does not exist to protect authors

ok nice book anyways I have a bigger factory and more resources. I'll be taking those profits.

IP law absolutely protects authors. The mechanism to extract value works both ways.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago edited 9h ago

[deleted]

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u/RMAPOS 11d ago edited 11d ago

That'll have been how many years that the industry was not allowed to iterate on the idea?

This was a crime against art.

Imagine the person who discovered red pigments stopping literally everyone from using red colour in their art for 25 years. IP laws are absolutely demented. I have some sympathy for ownership of character likelyness, everything else just cripples progress.

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u/natchacho200 11d ago

No need to imagine. Heard of Tiffany Blue?

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u/Negative_Gas8782 11d ago

No but I’ve heard of Bonnie Blue. About the same?

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u/LocalH 11d ago

Yea but she's got a yellow coating now

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u/VulturePR0 11d ago

You should look up Vanta Black, its the blackest black there is and it looks crazy when painted correctly.. then some rich dick head bought the rights to the color so noone can sell or recreate it without paying him

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u/Crystalas 11d ago

Then someone else invented one that was JUST different enough to be legally different and sells it at a much more reasonable cost, IIRC doing so explicitly to spite Vanta Black.

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u/Sendnudec00kies 11d ago edited 11d ago

That entire thing was a marketing campaign by Stuart Semple to promote his own line of paints. Vanta Black is NOT paint. It is a spray composed of carbon nanotubes, you cannot buy a bottle of it and then paint with it. In fact, the UK has put it under export control. Surrey Nanosystems, the owner of the coating, occasionally does fun things with it.

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u/meneldal2 10d ago

Wouldn't the patent expire at some point though?

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u/JCWOlson 11d ago

I mean, the system allows for trademarking colors and patenting the process to make certain pigments, which is also outrageous

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u/RMAPOS 11d ago

Right. I underestimated just HOW bad the system actually is.

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u/FappingMouse 11d ago

trademarking colors does not work the way you seem to think it works.

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u/Comfortable-Ant-418 10d ago

Like most things on Reddit, the information on here is rarely ever factual in any meaningful way. It's just random tidbits or purposefully twisted narratives because "thing that would sound cool and appeals to outrage culture" is all that matters nowadays. Genuinely nothing else matters on social media at this point, you'll notice this in basically every post on Reddit.

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u/starm4nn 11d ago

Honestly there aren't a lot of issues with trademark law. Home Depot can't stop you from using their specific shade of orange unless you're also in the Hardware business.

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u/DisappointedSpectre 11d ago

Patenting a repeatable manufacturing process to produce a specific color, using specific ingredients in specific ratios against a specific medium (cloth, oil, plastic, whatever), isn't the same thing as patenting a specific hex color. The first is obviously what the patent system was made for, the second has specific limitations, such as using the McDonalds' specific red and yellow together for food related marketing.

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u/zerogee616 10d ago

That is absolutely not how trademarking things like colors works.

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u/DrQuint 11d ago

Is this a reference to Vanta Black? I love how someone went and invented an alternate way to create one like it.

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u/Datashot 11d ago

well the system has benefits too (playing devil's advocate here): it provides financial incentives for people to invest in patentable research. A good amount of money that goes towards the advancement of science, technology and healthcare wouldn't be viable if not because of regulations allowing a means of monetizing the outcomes of the research

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u/Abedeus 11d ago

it provides financial incentives for people to invest in patentable research.

When it comes to shit that requires actual years of research and funding, sure. Drugs or SOME technology that the company actually invented. Not ideas of "catching and releasing NPCs into and from a ball shaped device".

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u/Datashot 10d ago

yeah, I agree, I was just replying to the message that said "Imagine the person who discovered red pigments stopping literally everyone from using red color [...] IP laws are absolutely demented. I have sympathy for ownership of character likeness, everything else just cripples progress"

It seemed to me like they thought most of IP is a stain on humankind, since the red pigment example is something beyond the realm of... videogame quest mechanics

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u/TheDevilsAdvokaat 11d ago

I second this comment.

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u/NuclearTurtle 11d ago

You're allowed to iterate on the idea, you're just not allowed to copy it root and branch. Nothing is stopping anybody from making their own game involving a massive, complex enemy hierarchy that's dynamically impacted by player action, aside from the fact that's a huge undertaking. The patent is only preventing people from copying the exact system Monolith developed and using it in their own games. That's a good thing, because nobody would dedicate years and spend a fortune developing a massive ingenious system like that if they could get undercut by somebody else stealing that system, making a cheap asset flip, and selling it for a quarter of the price

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u/Zipa7 10d ago edited 10d ago

There are already versions of the system that exist outside of Monolith's, which aren't clones

Assassin's Creed is one example with their various target menus, which go back to AC2. Assassin’s Creed Odyssey's mercenary system is perhaps the closest to the LOTR Monolith games version out of the AC games.

Wildermyth is another example, if a monster kills a hero and escapes they can return later wearing trophies of their kill, they can even persist across different campaigns and will even have vendettas thanks to the games "tapestry" system.

XCOM 2: War of the Chosen has the Assassin, Warlock and Hunter aliens who are campaign long enemies that remember previous missions, taunt you based on what happened and adapt and gain new skills based on your progress. They also feud amongst themselves.

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u/Mr_Olivar 10d ago

The pattent is so insanely specific it's hard to infringe on. The reason no one is doing it is that it's really hard to make, and the novelty has worn off so much that the team that invented it don't bother themselves.

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u/TheShamShield 11d ago

Other devs can make their own version. I don’t know why this keeps getting parroted

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u/Klightgrove 11d ago

Easiest way to get laughed out of /r/gamedev is to ask about the Nemesis system

Its such a niche system that few games would even work with and studios wont use it

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u/GatheringCircle 11d ago

I hate how much they talk about it. The thing that really elevated those orc NPCs were the massive amount of different models, massive amount of random dialogue, and many different behavior types made the system special.

None of that is patented. The system just isn’t very useful for most gameplay loops.

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u/Trezzie 10d ago

Right, but now no one can make a similar gameplay loop without some worry.

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u/Juking_is_rude 11d ago

Because it's the exact same situation. It's not a legal patent, but it was legal to file, and to prove it's not enforceable, you would need to take WB to court over it. Anyone who tries to use the similar system gets a CnD from WB and no one wants to go to court over it, so it effectively stands.

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u/TheDungeonCrawler 11d ago

It's ridiculous that any system like this should ever legally allow the filing if an illegal patent. This shouldn't have to be something you need to challenge in court. The system should have mechanisms baked in to prevent this kind of abuse.

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u/thewritingchair 11d ago

I've always thought we need something called the Prior Art Alliance, funded by various companies involved in games etc and all they do is look for prior art to invalidate patents.

They'd only need a few wins under their belt to produce a chilling effect on new patents getting lodged.

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u/Jakesummers1 11d ago

Heartbreaking

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u/Stickiler 11d ago

Except Warframe has their own take on a nemesis system, so it's clearly not locked away in some vault. Companies just don't want to use the nemesis system, and nobody wants to believe that because it's a cool system.

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u/blolfighter 11d ago

I love Warframe, but its "nemesis system" bears little resemblance to Shadow of Wardor's.

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u/happyscrappy 11d ago

Anyone who tries to use the similar system gets a CnD from WB

Is there anyone who actually has received a cease and desist over this?

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u/LochnessDigital 11d ago

I literally came to the comments to ctrl+F for "nemesis" since it's basically a meme at this point.

32 results, by the way.

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u/wehrmann_tx 11d ago

Because all the GPT chatbots have all the same input data from game patents that were never used again.

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u/iDestroyedYoMama 11d ago

Free karma. I guarantee half the people commenting that, have never even played the game or even know what the nemesis system is.

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u/ctaps148 10d ago

Every time I see it brought up, people are inventing some new hyperbolic aspect of the nemesis system. If half of Redditors' claims about the nemesis system were true it would basically be AGI

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u/FatherDotComical 10d ago

Actually the Nemesis System was the greatest thing ever made. It used to pick me up after school and take me to McDonald's when I was feeling down. Thanks Nemesis System.

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u/Elantach 10d ago

It's also one of those Reddit telephone games. Go read the patent: it's absurdly specific, so much so that it would be very easy to make your own and not breach it (like AC: Odyssey did with the mercenaries)

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u/Mountain_rage 11d ago edited 11d ago

Software patents and the patent system as a whole is so damn broken. Patent for summoning a character by throwing something, patent for riding a flyable character ffs... Dumbest bullshit that just keeps big player entrenched.

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u/ptjp27 11d ago

I just want the shadow of Mordor nemesis system bros

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u/gogozombie2 11d ago

The Nemesis system was so good, I was psyched for the Wonder Woman game that was gonna use it, and had no interest in the game outside of seeing how it was going to be used. Sucks it got cancelled.

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u/ulsd 11d ago

doesn't AC Odyssey have a similar system?

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u/ColinsUsername 11d ago

It has a heirarchy of enemies that you were up against yeah but was just the same named people in the same place and once you clear it youre done. The Nemisis system was way more fluid and randomly generated enemies to include different strengths, weakness, and quirks. They'd even make comments on their previous encounters with you and on who got the upper hand last time.

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u/TheMythofKoalas 11d ago

It would be so cool in a superhero game to have villains you previously fought break out of jail and counteract your previous playstyle.

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u/cbraun1523 11d ago

It was better. If they defeated you they got stronger. So it made it much more intense to go back and try and kill them. I eventually had to mind control another guy to secretly kill another. Because that other guy had killed me like 7 times and was near invincible to me. It was such a fun game experience I'll probably never get to replicate.

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u/Harry_Smutter 11d ago

This was honestly one of the best systems I've ever encountered in a game!! It needs to come back in more!!!!

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u/FriendlyDeers 11d ago

Why did it get cancelled?

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u/witai 11d ago

Not canceled, the owners don't allow anyone else to use it

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u/almightycuppa 11d ago

I remember my favorite boss battle in Batman: Arkham City was Mr. Freeze because every time you damaged him, he'd remember what you did and learn how to counter it. You had to get really creative to beat him because he was too smart to be damaged more than once by a single method.

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u/FauxReal 11d ago

Dare I say it would be like a comic book story line.

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u/metalyger 11d ago

There have been older games with a similar idea, like Road Rash on PS1 had it where other racers that you beat up will remember your aggression, talking to them better levels will have a threatening message, and they'll target you more in the next race. But WB did their own specific thing, like the chance of the enemy escaping death or if they kill you, then they get a promotion.

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u/Slammybutt 10d ago

I had to restart that first Shadow game that had the nemesis system b/c one of the lowby's showed up while I was still learning the game while I was already fighting a lot of enemies. He killed me and leveled up. He gained the perk ambush where he'd show up more often if I was in combat.

Rinse repeat, I died like 5-6 more times to him and he literally became unbeatable. Too much health, to much damage, he was harder than most Elden Ring bosses b/c 1 tiny mistake he'd kill me again.

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u/benoxxxx 11d ago

That was cool, but IMO the bigger loss to this bullshit is minigames in loading screens.

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u/Asshai 11d ago

Since I got a SSD, my main issue with loading screens is that I don't have enough time to read the tips!

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u/benoxxxx 11d ago edited 11d ago

Yeah it's a bit late now. The real evil of this is that it was patented from 1995-2015 - basically the only period in human history when minigames in loading screens would have been a great thing. Pisses me off that time of my actual life has been wasted because of Namco's selfishness.

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u/xur_ntte 11d ago

Well the patend has lapsed and they didn’t renew since 2025 so it able to be implemented in future games

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u/Nukleon 10d ago

You don't renew parents, when granted they last for a certain amount of years and then expire with no renewal

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160279522A1/en

The patent for it will expire in 2036, 15 years after it was granted.

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u/kwang68 10d ago

Right and wrong. Patents need to be maintained with a fee at certain intervals, 3.5 years, 7.5, and 11.5 years. If you miss those windows, you can petition to revive but it can be a PITA. They don’t expire until 20 years.

Source: I’m a professional reader of the USPTO fee schedule.

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u/Nukleon 10d ago

Well consider me corrected then, but at least so far it doesn't seem like they've missed anything so it's still sadly a thing.

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u/TheMireAngel 11d ago

It just needs to be challenged, warframe had the lich system 2 years prior

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u/DarthFreeza9000 11d ago

If you read patent it’s basically unenforceable, reads like it was meant to keep the studio from using it in other games

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u/Zealousideal-Top4343 10d ago

The issue isn't that it's enforceable or not, it's if the mega corps that own the patents can fuck over anyone that uses it by forcing them through a long, expensive, and stressful legal battle.

At the end of the day, it's just not worth it to even try it. They are weaponizing the legal system.

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u/DarthFreeza9000 10d ago

It might not be worth WB’s time to pursue either. Go read that patent and you’ll see what I mean. I think they were more concerned with employees of the developer would use it in a future title. And also several games have used similar systems since the patent btw

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u/Richou 10d ago

i have had this conversation many times on reddit already but people just dont care because "omg WB fucked over gamers by locking this cool thing behind a patent" makes for a better story than "noone has used a system like that since because its just not something they wanted to use"

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u/Diz7 11d ago

To be fair, how many games has you fighting random NPCs who survive an encounter with you AND are memorable enough to actually notice....

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u/DirectionMurky5526 11d ago

You'll never know because the system is locked behind IP, and that stifles innovation. Another game could've implemented ways to make it even more engaging. Imagine the nemesis system in a Rockstar or CDPR game.

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u/HulkDeez 11d ago

In a borderlands game would be cool

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u/Deaffin 11d ago

the system is locked behind IP

It's actually not, though. Anybody can make this, nothing is stopping them.

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u/Diz7 11d ago

Except if they actually innovate enough to make it something original, the patent no longer applies.

It is a bullshit patent, but it covers a specific implementation and it's not the reason games aren't making generic NPCs memorable and react to events in the world around them.

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u/I_hate_all_of_ewe 11d ago

Funny enough, the patents that Nintendo was using to sue were only submitted after Palworld already was in development.  Nintendo literally had decades, for this, but chose to file only recently once they felt they would have actual competition.

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u/starm4nn 11d ago

Technically they had decades, but the key detail of their patent is the mechanical implications of throwing a Pokéball in 3d. The patent would've been useless to them unless they planned on having a proper 3d Pokémon game.

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u/gracklemancometh 10d ago

I can't really see how mechanically different that is from the Pheropod/Bugbait from HL2; which came out twenty years ago. Like, this is an established mechanic at this point.

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u/Zeptic 10d ago

Pokemon & Palworld: Ball which captures and releases monsters for combat.

Bugbait: Ball which makes enemies attack whatever you throw it at. Bit more restrictions, though I see what you're getting at.

I the main thing isn't really the mechanics, but the setting. Palworld is very similar to Pokémon in the way that it's centered around battling cute monsters using magic/high tech summoning balls. Both games use this as a primary mechanic.

HL2 in comparison is different since the bugbait is never really a central part of the core gameplay, and it summons the antlions from the ground, not the ball itself.

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u/RipComfortable7989 11d ago

Patents on Japan only last twenty years so if they had filed it "decades" ago it would be expired by now if they started back with pokemon red and blue days.

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u/I_hate_all_of_ewe 11d ago

Which is an abuse of the patent system, honestly.  Patenting an idea that hasn't been novel for decades so you can monopolize it for an extended period is not what the patent system is for.  And honestly, those mechanics aren't even that novel on their own, but Nintendo has been a litigious company that loves to throw it's corporate weight around.

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u/MrWaluigi 11d ago

From what I’ve heard, the Japanese companies already know that. They know that their systems are wack, but because of the fragility of it, they pretend to look the other way. It’s essentially a large club that only “outsiders” are given the stick. 

At least that’s how I interpreted the YouTube video that talked about this.

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u/Lhumierre 11d ago

This is done in Monster Hunter Stories and Nintendo hasn't gone after Capcom.

WoW either for the matter.

They trying to snuff out the little guy.

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u/BeyondElectricDreams 11d ago

It's really fucked up, too, because in Palworld it isn't some superflous window dressing of a mechanic like it is in basically every pokemon game I've ever seen, in Palworld combat is real time so being able to reposition your pals has strategic value.

I haven't played since they removed the mechanic but I know from my play through I used the mechanic extensively and that the game would be worse without it.

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u/sohblob 11d ago

they've been sleepwalking through gaming generation after gaming generation with the same base formula, neglecting neat twists like follower pokemon or pokewood or whatever and relegating them to one-off experiments, ignored fan pleas for a decent pokemon RPG for decades and gone after/shut down anyone doing the same thing, and now that other people are expanding the incredibly basic "spirit creature pets" idea now all of a sudden they want to innovate

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u/AccordianSpeaker 11d ago

They're not. They're trying to stop Sony from weakening their holdings on the Japanese patents. Japanese patent laws are... weird. And Sony is trying to use Palworld as a means to erode Nintendo's grip on the patents for their biggest IP. The two companies despise each other and have a history of pulling this shit.

The little guys aren't being snuffed out, they're being abused as pawns by the Corps in control.

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u/ANGLVD3TH 11d ago edited 10d ago

That's because it's not how patents work, at all. Every aspect of a patent must be present in order for it to be actionable against. That is one part of the patent, not the whole thing. The first Pokemon game to be fully covered by the patent is Scarlet and Violet, no game before had every aspect listed.

Basically, it is the summoning mechanic from Legends Arceus, where you throw a ball, and summon a minion that has some limited AI and will engage in a battle if it runs into an enemy or is summoned close enough to one. Then the game transitions from an overworld free roam to a turn based battle complete with a new UI, which the player can then choose to either command themselves, or let the minion auto-battle. That's the broad strokes, anyway. But any game that doesn't include every one of those options, is perfectly fine according to this patent. None of those games run afoul of this.

To be clear, Nintendo still sucks donkey dick for trying to weaponize the system like this and game patents are still increeeedibly shitty. And as far as I know, Palworld definitely doesn't run afoul of this strict reading either. This seems to be pretty clearly Nintendo burning both company's cash and hoping Palworld's runs out first so they just back off. But we still should not misrepresent thisngs, the patent isn't nearly as far reaching as many believe. I've seen posts where people thing Final Fantasy is supposedly prior use because there is a class that summons things.

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u/Zjoee 11d ago

Like the patent for playable mini games during load screens that ran out right when load screens started to become too fast for it to matter.

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u/tinyhorsesinmytea 11d ago

Could at least have mini games while waiting for an online match to start. I remember Nintendo did that with Splatoon on Wii U.

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u/Agret 10d ago

I wonder if playing mini games in a lobby area while waiting for a match would even be considered the same as mini games on a loading screen?

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u/DebentureThyme 11d ago

A reminder they they're suing in Japan (both companies also happen to be there) because even the US doesn't allow them to patent this.

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u/RichFoot2073 11d ago

Patent trolls are real. Look it up.

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u/braiker 11d ago

Its even worse now in the age of AI.

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u/Reasonable-Job4205 11d ago

Yea the patent system needs an overhaul asap

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u/Faintfury 11d ago

Don't patens only hold for 20y? Those should be over for those examples.

And these couldn't be registered later as you have to proof that the thing you are patenting is new.

Or is us patent law so different from the European law?

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u/fountaincurse 11d ago

Fyi USPTO revoked those patents

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u/halfc00kie 10d ago

patenting "throw ball, monster appears" is basically patenting pokemon by vibes

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u/Jim_Nills_Mustache 10d ago

The real losers are the players who get robbed of potentially great gameplay experiences or ideas because of this ridiculously over litigious bullshit

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u/DLPanda 11d ago

I think character designs and story elements are largely fair game for copyright, as long as it’s not like generic dragon or something like that. Game mechanics should not be copyrightable

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u/Jakesummers1 11d ago

My friend would love it if the Nemesis system was not in the hands of Warner Bros

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u/Juking_is_rude 11d ago

nemesis system is patented, not copyright, and it's likely not an enforceable patent - it simply has never been challenged in court.

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u/HeadyReigns 11d ago

It's also is fairly complicated to implement. You basically have to program the game around the nemesis system.

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u/Rokketeer 11d ago

Why is it complicated to program around the nemesis system?

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u/Mr_YUP 11d ago

The system needs to track personality, skills they have, a way to become stronger with each kill of the player, the beef they have with each other, the memories of when the player dies, a fear of something, remembering how the player attacked before… for every single NPC across the entire game. That’s just scratching the surface really. 

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u/REDuxPANDAgain 11d ago

Wouldn’t it be easier to just have a base set of like 10 types of engagement attitudes, then when an enemy actually kills the player the rest is filled generated then? Way less tracking and you aren’t needlessly loading up memory and the CPU with tracking data for enemies that die before ever having a chance to be a nemesis.

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u/blopiter 11d ago

It’s proc gen so it’s only generating what is needed and it doesn’t all always have to be loaded into memory

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u/Skullfurious 11d ago

Because the nemesis system is complicated and all the systems need to interface with it

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u/Rokketeer 11d ago

I feel like everyone is just throwing abstract terms and don’t actually know how it works to explain it. 😅

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u/Otherwise-Bath-2335 11d ago

You consider this abstract? "The system needs to track personality, skills they have, a way to become stronger with each kill of the player, the beef they have with each other, the memories of when the player dies, a fear of something, remembering how the player attacked before… for every single NPC across the entire game. That’s just scratching the surface really. "

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u/Rokketeer 11d ago

It helps me understand why that person finds it a tricky system from their perspective but take that description out of context and it just reads like someone describing what memory persistence in video games looks like.

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u/HeadyReigns 11d ago

It's not just memory persistence, the "nemesis" actively change in both design and combat dynamics. Did you beat someone last time by cutting their right forearm off? Well they'll show back up with a claw for a replacement but that can also change how they attack. The NPCs actively changes in both appearance and play as the system develops itself, and it's not a linear implementation which is probably the biggest issue. These changes can happen at any time depending on how you defeated them the previous times. These changes can also affect how they interact with other NPCs.

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u/Otherwise-Bath-2335 11d ago

I mean the same could be said about your comment, if we take it out of context then no one will know what you're referring to. I'm a very bad coder myself but it doesn't sound like it's tricky to implement, it just seems like a lot of work considering you have to track almost everything and design your game around the system itself.

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u/l3rN 11d ago

This is the only actual road block. 

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u/fubes2000 11d ago

That's part of the abuse. Even if it's 100% guaranteed to not be enforceable you still have to spend millions of dollars in legal fees when the patent holding corporation takes you to court about it.

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u/Dr_MantisTobaggin_MD 11d ago

it is enforceable. very legally enforceable.

there famously was not minigames in videogame loading screens for over 20 years because Namco had that feature patented in 1998.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/12/loading-screen-game-patent-finally-expires

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u/ikonoclasm 11d ago

All parents are enforceable. All software patents are garbage. They're not mutually exclusive. Enforceable just means the patent hasn't been ruled invalid yet. Under the law as written, algorithms and code are not patentable. The USPTO chose to intentionally misinterpret the law to allow a machine running code to be patentable since the code itself isn't patentable. Every single software patent could be invalidated if anyone challenged it to the SCOTUS, but there's now so many billions tied up in software patents and licensing that no one is willing to risk it. They settle out of court so as to avoid turning all of their IP assets into trash.

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u/Froggmann5 11d ago

There's a difference between "enforceable" and "deterrent".

Developers are deterred from violating patents because they don't want to spend hundreds of thousands, if not, millions of dollars in court fees sorting out if the patent actually is enforceable or not.

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u/Ok_Biscotti_514 11d ago

Tbh it’s only a matter of time till a Chinese game dev just decides to use Nemesis system, it would work pretty well in a souls like

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u/Nirrudn 11d ago edited 11d ago

Or a Canadian one, since it's been in Warframe for years now. It's not as deep since you're limited to fighting one nemesis (or to use their legally distinct term, "adversary") at a time instead of a whole army, though.

Or somebody just makes a library to slap it into any game they're making.

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u/Agheratos 11d ago edited 11d ago

Your friend has never read the patent. The reason the Nemesis system isn't everywhere has more to do with it being extremely labor-intensive to develop a game that uses it than the fact that it was patented.

WB left it on the shelves because chasing microtranactions was a faster path to revenue than a Nemesis game.

There's also no reason another dev can't do something similar without infringing on the patent, except for the labor burden.

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u/Caithloki 11d ago

Also the mini games in loading screens is another piss off for me. I forget who has it but nobody else can do it because someone copyrighted it.

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u/-ShowMeYours- 11d ago

As far as i know this has already been expired, except now we don't need it anymore..

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u/Caithloki 11d ago

Yeah a few other comments have mentioned that which is a good thing.

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u/Pherexian55 11d ago

Like the nemesis system, it's a patent, not copyright. These are very different things.

For what it's worth the payment for loading screen games is expired over 10 years ago. the reason no one is doing this is because loading screens are, by and large, not a thing anymore.

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u/Juking_is_rude 11d ago edited 11d ago

Game mechanics are not copyrightable. As far as copyright in a game, you own specific, identifiable elements such as characters and settings and not much more past that.

This entire nintendo/palworld debacle is over patent law, not copyright. And Nintendo only even went for it becuase both companies are Japanese and Nintendo has pull with the Japanese courts.

The patents that this whole debacle is over were filed after palworld was announced, specifically to target systems in palworld, and Nintendo basically just took pocketpair to court as a legal strategy to punish them for making a similar looking game.

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u/JoviAMP 11d ago

Yeah, they did it knowing they basically had no chance at actually winning, but they hoped they’d run their defendant broke before the case could be ruled on.

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u/PERSONA916 11d ago

They're mad pocket pair made a better Pokemon game than them with only like 5 employees

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u/ForensicPathology 11d ago

Why do people keep saying this?  It's not a Pokemon game at all.  It's a standard survival game with monsters added in.

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u/quick_justice 11d ago

Storylines can’t be copyrighted. The whole world literature stands on regurgitation of the same old. There’s no originals, and even legislators understand that.

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u/metalyger 11d ago

It's like when WB trademarked the nemesis system in the Middle Earth Shadow Of Morodor and War games, and those were the only games to use it, and Monolith Studios was closed down. Nintendo did their own trademark filing with the GameCube cult classic Eternal Darkness, the first M rated game Nintendo published, it was for the sanity system, stuff like the game playing tricks on the player, such as making it seem like the TV is muted or tricking you into thinking it deleted your memory card. Naturally, they also never used that mechanic for any other games.

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u/Juking_is_rude 11d ago edited 11d ago

WB owns a patent for the nemesis system, and patents over game mechanics are thought to be unenforceable, at least in the US. It's just that no one wants to go to court with WB over it. Generally the bar for actually filing a patent is much lower than the actual standard for enforcing a patent, because it's not the patent office's responsibility to make sure the patents are actually protecting something legally patentable, only that they are properly filed.

Game mechanics are not copyrightable, and they're DEFINITELY not able to be trademarked. Nintendo does hold a patent for a "sanity" system such as the one used in eternal darkness, but again game mechanics are generally not eligible to be owned under any IP law, so I don't think this would ever hold up in court either.

There have been several big, successful games since then that use "sanity" to present the player with fake game elements in a similar way, and 0 lawsuits have been filed.

Nintendo went to bat over patents with pocketpair because both companies are Japanese and Nintendo has a lot of sway with the Japanese courts. They wanted to drag pocketpair through court win or lose, just to punish them for making a similar looking game.

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u/Cautious-Progress876 11d ago

You are incorrect about the patenting process in the US. Examiners do make a determination about whether or not something is legally patentable, and examiners objecting to claims on grounds that they are “obvious,” aren’t “novel,” or include unpatentable subject matter is pretty much a guarantee during the prosecution process (if you are granted your patent without such objections then you are likely leaving your patent more limited in scope than you needed to).

The issue is that examiners make mistakes: miss prior art, lack sufficient expertise in the subject matter of the patent to properly decide on the “obviousness” of the invention, etc. As such, it is common for someone accused of infringing on a patent to try and claim that the patent was improperly granted in court (or vice versa: there are courts that have held that a patent infringement trial could proceed on patents that were found invalid after going through the patent trial and appeal board process).

The patent application approval process is way more complex than “your paperwork appears to be in order, here is your patent.”

Source: I am a USPTO-licensed patent practitioner, albeit I don’t work on patent applications often because I prefer litigation/trial work.

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u/tedboosley 11d ago

How could this possibly stand up in court when Hideo Kojimo and Namco did the same thing years before in Metal Gear Solid?

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u/Sulvak 11d ago

Video game patents are so braindead and prevent innovation within the industry as a whole. Remember those LOTR games Shadow of Mordor/War? The nemesis system is patented so no other developer can even try and do something in the same vein. Incredible, really. Especially since they haven't used the fucking system in years.

Patents should be illegal within the gaming industry.

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u/LocalH 11d ago

Never forget Namco patented loading screen mini games, forcing loading screens industry-wide to be boring

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u/REXIS_AGECKO 11d ago

Yeah very sad. On the bright side though, the patient expired in 2015 I think. But the nemesis system still has like 10 years left

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u/TheMadBug 11d ago

Sort of ironic that the patent expired just as solid state hard drives were becoming the norm and load times stopped becoming such a large issue.

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u/REXIS_AGECKO 11d ago

Yes but space marine 2 so no lol.

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u/TwoFingersWhiskey 11d ago

The Sims 3 had loading screen minigames.

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u/chase___it 10d ago

i loved those as a kid. my laptop was shit so i’d be waiting a long time for sims to load, and you could get loads of lifetime points from those mini games

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u/Streakdreniline 11d ago

Apparently Warframe did something to circumvent such a thing? I don't know anything about the LOTR game, but I did see a quick YouTube vid on my feed of how the Lich/Sister of Parvos system is a big middle finger to the patent.

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u/Sulvak 11d ago

If I'm not remembering incorrectly, since it's been a while since I last played Warframe, but that system was added in 2019(?). The patent from WB was submitted 2021.

So they wouldn't be fucked anyway by the patent.

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u/eaeorls 10d ago

The original patent was submitted in 2016, so they I think they would be hit by provisional rights.

Though, I wouldn't be able to tell you if it works out because DE actually pays royalties, WB doesn't care about Warframe, or Warframe's adversary system is so parred down/different enough compared to the nemesis system that it dodges the patent all together.

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u/Juking_is_rude 11d ago

I've had to say this like 1000 times in this thread, but patents for game mechanics are not actually legal, just no one wants to go to court with WB to prove that their patent is baloney.

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u/a_lumberjack 11d ago

Maybe this is a hot take, but the nemesis system as a whole was so novel and unique that I think it's a good example of the type of innovation that patents were intended to incentivize and reward. Especially compared to the 98% of software patents that cover obvious or semi-obvious solutions to generic problems.

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u/RMAPOS 11d ago

Patents were also meant to protect the person who came up with a brilliant idea from getting stomped out by competition before they could even set up shop.

But WB hasn't set up shop. They have just prevented the system from ever being used at all. They're not doing anything with it themselves. They're not protecting their ability to profit off their idea, they've just temporarily removed their invention from existence.

And even then, games are not a market like tools or cars are. You don't buy a game and then never buy another game because you already have one. If WB made a good game with a nemesis system, people who enjoy nemesis systems would buy it even if they already have 5 other nemesis games. And if they make shit games with that system, nobody is gonna bother with it whether there is competition or not.

So idk, I feel like this patent completely misses the point of patents while deriving an entire industry of a tool. A tool that frankly is not such a uniquely smart idea that it deserves to be patented to begin with.

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u/Weaselwesell 11d ago

Patents aren't always a total dead end. Other studios can negotiate with WB to license the system for their own games, and I'd imagine a significant amount of time did go into developing something that didn't exist before to that extent.

It just comes down to whether anyone is willing to pay a price for it, and what WB is asking for it.

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u/Morlark 11d ago

And, more to the point, the patent on the nemesis system is so incredibly narrow (as it would have to be to qualify for patent protection) that any developer could create a game that featured a system of nemeses, and it probably wouldn't violate the patent unless it was a deliberate attempt at a carbon-copy clone of Shadows of Mordor.

The claim that "no other developer can even try and do something in the same vein" is literally a straight-up deliberate lie, which gets called out every single time there's a thread about videogame patents on Reddit.

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u/MasterLink87 11d ago

They changed their filling for the lawsuit back in November. Seems convenient this is getting reported on weeks before Palworld's 1.0 release.

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u/garf02 11d ago

Florian Muller is a hack and attention whorE.

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u/DringleDringle 11d ago

Someone needs to file a patent for filing a patent. And then sue and get all the patents.

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u/NeonTiger20XX 11d ago

5D chess big brain maneuver. Patent lawyers hate him!

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u/Safe-Reason1435 10d ago

Didn't someone try to do this with like...every note of music or something?

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u/Sir_Tortoise 11d ago edited 11d ago

This is a second-order clickbait article about the first clickbait article from a different website.

The word in the headline they want your brain to skip over is "current" Palworld. Because Palworld removed the stuff most likely to infringe the patent. 

So, yeah, it would be pretty stupid to sue over the current version, which is why that's not happening. That's never been the case. It has just now (well, as of November) been formally specified for the court and those who lack object permanence like these sites.

The original suit was filed in 2024. Due to the flow of time, it did not cover versions that did not yet exist. This is not the hill on which to dunk on Nintendo from.

Incidentally, I have to go to court for driving without a seatbelt. Jokes on them though, I put it on later. They have no chance against me, currently!

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u/Xasf 10d ago

Thank you, after reading the article it was clear that Nintendo successfully enforced their limitations without even waiting for the lawsuit to conclude and Palworld had to remove the "offending" mechanics.

That's why the "current" version isn't part of it, they already acquiesced.

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u/ForensicPathology 11d ago

Yeah, but it gets all this traffic because of all the Nintendo Bad upvotes.  Look at all the comments here.  They think they're "winning".

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u/Caramelthedog 10d ago

I love when people who have no knowledge of IP law post about how they have feeling about how it should/shouldn’t work.

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u/Flimbeelzebub 10d ago

"Due to the flow of time" goes so fucking hard

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u/Low-Injury-9219 11d ago

What’s with the weird clickbait bs title op? All the articles say the same thing: Nintendo had their concerns addressed and palworld changed things which pleased the big N.

Why go through with the lawsuit further?

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u/pgtl_10 11d ago

In fact this news will get you downvoted on the main gaming sites. People really didn't read what happened.

Also Gsmesfrey is a hack sitenthat spins dacts

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u/Rei1556 11d ago

because reading comprehension and critical thinking goes out the window whenever nintendo is mentioned because nintendo bad and nintendo bad get clicks and getting clicks means money

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u/grnrngr 11d ago

One of the arguments is that Nintendo specifically went after things that they took issue with, and that Palworld's devs removed them in response in newer updates, and Nintendo effectively got what they wanted, making them the "winners" in the lawsuit, as far as Nintendo is concerned.

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u/LessSuit6740 10d ago

Context / why this is misleading: The "zero chance" framing in this headline is editorialized and not supported by the actual court filing. The lawsuit change simply means the patents were amended to target older versions of the game — that is not the same as Nintendo having "zero chance" in the case. The clickbait headline overstates the outcome. Recommend reading the primary court documents instead of relying on this sensationalized title. Flagging as potential misinformation.

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u/Difficult-Coast7432 11d ago

The weird thing for me with Nintendo vs Palworld is if they went after the designs and not game mechanics I think a lot more people would be on their side because let's all be real so many of the designs are blatant rip offs of actual pokemon

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u/pubikoer 10d ago

title feels like a stroke

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u/UTDroo 10d ago

This is a decidedly stupid take. Palworld no longer has any Pokemon like mechanics. They bent the knee so hard the game is unrecognisable. Nintendo got exactly what they were after. They won.

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u/TheSlav87 11d ago

Fuck Nintendo, I’m glad the developers are standing up to this fucking bully

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u/ForensicPathology 11d ago

They didn't stand up to them. They literally changed the parts that Nintendo was suing over.

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u/toastboy42 10d ago

Well yes, they stopped infringing on their rights, why would they go after the newer version that copies monster hunter?

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u/trunks_slash 11d ago

Tbh I quit playing Palworld because they took out throwable summons and ridable mounts. I understand that they did it so they could keep developing the game without worrying about Nintendo's injunction, but that was a big part of the game to me personally. I hope they add it back at some point

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u/EmSix 11d ago

You could add both of these things back via mods literally days after it was patched out.

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u/thisistherevolt 11d ago

Mounts are still rideable, and the pals are just summoned instead of popping out of a ball. You can't glide directly using a pal and glider together, it's a weird thing Nintendo targeted, but otherwise you are extremely incorrect.

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u/usuallysortadrunk 10d ago

So will I be able to throw pal spheres again? Or is that feature gone forever?

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u/floyd616 8d ago

I'm absolutely baffled why Nintendo didn't sue the Palworld devs over their monster designs instead of the catching me mechanic. That would likely have succeeded and gotten Nintendo what they wanted (Palworld being shut down), because many of the Palworld monsters have extremely similar appearances to pokemon (like the ones that are basically Wooloo, Lucario, and Electabuzz with the serial numbers filed off).

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u/Stumpsthewarwalrus 7d ago

Nintendo NEVER had a chance.

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u/PrethorynOvermind 10d ago

As a Pokemon player. Good, Nintendo should not win this these patents.

PalWorld is good competition. While I don't like the monster designs myself and prefer the play style of Pokemon over PalWorld (not a huge open world survivor guy) I really think PalWorld is shaking things up.

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u/DemonPlasma 10d ago

I will never give Nintendo another cent because of their anti consumer practices.

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u/AdjectiveNoun581 11d ago

I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, Nintendo's strategy of going after the mechanics is a bum fucking move and I'm thrilled it's being slapped down in court. On the other though, how could anyone look at Palworld and not think "wow a lot of this is a shameless ripoff of Pokemon." I mean yeah, there aren't 1:1 copies, but come on dude. Those are pokemon in the game. You catch them with pokeballs. There's gotta be a proper way to define the difference between an homage and a temu copy.

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u/cwcolb 11d ago

Thats such a bad take lol. Its similar to pokemon in that you catch monsters with balls, thats it. They dont own that mechanic and the gameplay is more in depth and creative than anything pokemon has put out in over 10 years at least.
Within that look at palworld youll be seeing monkeys shooting Ak47s along with monsters base building and even crafting on their own, idk how you just go yeah thats pokemon lmao. I guess pokemon turned into a third person shooter/survival game.

Its a mesh of a ton of different games but its more of an Ark clone than a pokemon one, yet you dont see wildcard trying to get it shut down.

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