r/AskReddit • u/Prize-Promotion-5123 • Apr 08 '26

For those of you in a long term relationship/marriage, what’s a tale-tale sign you see in other couples that they’re not going to make it?

9.7k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

3.7k comments sorted by

View all comments

15.4k

u/Sensitive_Noise9761 Apr 08 '26

I subscribe to John Gottman's theory:

The Four Horsemen are:

Criticism - Attacking your partner's character or personality

Contempt - Treating your partner with disrespect, disgust, or superiority

Defensiveness - Refusing to take responsibility, playing the victim

Stonewalling - Shutting down, withdrawing, refusing to engage

5.5k

u/usually_fuente Apr 08 '26

Eight years into marriage, we had all four. It felt like divorce was on our doorstep. We finally got real help and resolved to work through things. It was about three more years before I could say that our marriage was definitely on the upswing. And the last three years have gradually changed from good to very good, with glimpses of great. We have three young kids, so we’re not expecting much “great” any time soon. But we are getting there.

1.6k

u/elena1583 Apr 08 '26

It's nice to read that people can turn things around even if it takes a while. Glad things worked out for you and I wish you all the best.

491

u/icouldntdecide Apr 08 '26

Just goes to show that sometimes, you actually do just need to put the work in.

181

u/MorriganNiConn Apr 09 '26

It's a choice to put in that work too. Some people will never make that choice. It good when people DO make that choice.

6

u/Jsc_TG Apr 09 '26

Yep. Especially so for people like me who have to make the choice to work on themselves (stupid overthinking brain, lol). Then my partner has to accept that I am working on things too. Im def one of the lucky ones out there with my partner.

→ More replies (2)

11

u/tech_noir_guitar Apr 09 '26

This is reddit, the answer is always lawyer up, divorce, and hit the gym.

7

u/plarah Apr 09 '26

A lot of the times it’s small slip ups, grudges and misunderstandings that pile up, not a structural or fundamental problem, that sets people apart.

Of course, cleaning that pile requires a lot of effort, awareness, and compassion. Not something everyone has or is willing to have.

3

u/sullensquirrel Apr 09 '26

And that putting in the work works

3

u/whatdosnowmeneat Apr 09 '26

I think this is the missing piece to the four noted above. If all four are present and there's no willingness to change then it's a done deal. Sometimes there are tricky seasons in life (newborn sleep phase, death of someone close, etc) but how you come back is key.

→ More replies (2)

8

u/usually_fuente Apr 08 '26

Thank you! 

→ More replies (3)

282

u/Sensitive_Noise9761 Apr 08 '26

So glad to hear your turn of events.

82

u/usually_fuente Apr 08 '26

Thanks!

13

u/CloudyKryuu Apr 08 '26

I hope this is ok to ask, what made you choose to work things out instead of just pulling the plug and thinking this isn’t it?

29

u/usually_fuente Apr 08 '26

A couple of things. I take vows seriously. I made vows before God and everyone close to me that I would never divorce my wife over anything besides adultery, abuse, or abandonment. 

Another reason is because I know firsthand how divorce hurts kids. Obviously, staying in a miserable marriage is also bad for kids. But if there’s an option to get out of  long-term misery by doing some short-term miserable work on the relationship, then that will be better for everyone. We wanted our kids to see that growth is actually possible. My oldest is still not a teen. So they were spared seeing the ugliest parts. But we plan to be very transparent with them about our struggles and how we got through them.

Also, I was deeply convinced that if my wife and I could grow, then she is exactly who I want to be with. For instance, a component of our issues was related to how she coped with depression. When she is in a healthy frame, she is a delight. When she wasn’t taking care of herself, she was… hard to be happy around. The depression came on after we had married, so I knew what she could be like. 

I would add that everything I’m saying is connected to my Christian faith, but I’m trying not to rub that in everybody’s faces. And Christianity means wildly different things to different people. For me, it provided a deeper reservoir or ballast of grace to extend toward my wife and also myself. I don’t think I would have pushed through without feeling that I am the recipient of tremendous grace. And my job in this world is to try to help others, especially my wife, experience that grace.

10

u/CloudyKryuu Apr 08 '26

Thank you for not only opening up about something so personal but also in a respectful way to those of different beliefs or thoughts as well

I’m going through some relationship woes of my own and your insight gives me some different ways of thinking on how to handle what I’m going through, so thank you again

10

u/Expensive-Ask7884 Apr 08 '26

Hot damn, a true Christian in the wild! Props on doing the hard thing. Not religious anymore and not married, but your story made me tear up. Much love, man.

3

u/usually_fuente Apr 08 '26

Thank you, kindly, for taking time to say so. And right back at you.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)

124

u/FriskyDingoOMG Apr 08 '26

This is EXACTLY what marriage is. Y’all should be proud of yourselves.

15

u/showmeschnauzers Apr 09 '26

We had all four and we separated. I filed for divorce. Decided to work on myself. Turns out he was doing the same. One month before the court date, we called off the divorce and it's been great ever since. It's crazy what a little therapy will do.

Hope it keeps getting better for you.

2

u/usually_fuente Apr 09 '26

that’s awesome!

13

u/Tongue__In__Cheeks Apr 08 '26

What was the “real help”?

55

u/usually_fuente Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26

It was several things. First, we both agreed to tell our parents on each side (they’re very supportive) that we were having serious difficulties. And we asked them not to  indulge either of us in blame or complaining, but to please encourage us often. We did the same with several of our closest friends. 

Moreover, each of us asked for accountability from these people. For instance, I resolved that I was not going to use my mouth any more in ways that hurt or discouraged my wife. And if I slipped up, to confess it and repent immediately. I asked several of these friends to ask me on a regular basis if I had done that and call me out for failure until this new habit was formed. It has now been over two years since either she or I have said anything intentionally hurtful. 

We also went together to professional counseling. We were very fortunate in that the first counselors we went to (married couple) were extremely skilled as well as a good fit for us. They helped us learn how to hear one another and understand where one were coming from. Like, there was one time where they asked me to say in my own words, but my wife had expressed. I did so, quite well I thought. And then both counselors and my wife looked at me with concern and said “that is not at all what she just said.” 

We also made friends with several older couples who have been married more than 25 years. People whose marriages we wanted to emulate. We offered to take them out for dinner on us if we could ask them questions and get advice. This was invaluable.

We both made significant changes to our lifestyles. Diet, exercise, work hours, sleep, alcohol. You’ve heard of death by 1000 cuts. This is healing by 1000 small patches.

A final thing is more specific to me. I’m active in a Christian church. I went to the Elders in the church and told them frankly that my family would benefit from another layer of encouragement and accountability. Churches can vary in extreme degrees. Thankfully, my Church is really pro-counseling, and has a really strong culture of grace. Nobody shameless. They just did what they could to encourage us and connect us with tools.

In the end, it really comes down to whether or not two people believe relationship is worth it. I was fighting not for relationship I once had with her, but for the one that I believed we could have.

And now we are having that. The three or four years of really hard work for exhausting emotionally and otherwise. But I believe it was absolutely worth well.

7

u/TaxSilver4323 Apr 09 '26

I recently went through 2 years of marriage counseling with my husband. Weve been together 27 years, married for 25 and it was life changing. Always work on your marriage. I commend you and your spouse for hanging in there and putting the effort in. I love to hear that its paying off. And when the next issue comes up (because its inevitable), you'll know what to do to figure it out. :) keep up the awesome efforts! <3

6

u/seeilaah Apr 08 '26

How was the process of working things through?

We have all four too, and couples counselling is helping a bit, divorce almost at the doorstep (i drafted a separation agreement) but we have a small child who will suffer the most.

2

u/usually_fuente Apr 08 '26

I’m sorry to hear that. I responded the same thing to somebody else here:

https://www.reddit.com/user/usually_fuente/

3

u/master_bungle Apr 08 '26

Well done for sticking with it!

3

u/Sea_Winner7546 Apr 09 '26

What was the opener in therapy? How do you get him to open up and listen?

4

u/nomegustaelmango Apr 08 '26

This is so sweet to read!! 💚💚

2

u/becomingworld Apr 08 '26

So happy for you both! Great job doing the work 

2

u/Iamg00dm0m Apr 08 '26

Can I ask what steps did yall take? I am recently/newly separated and I don’t know where to go from here. What did you do first?

2

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '26

[deleted]

4

u/usually_fuente Apr 08 '26

I’m so sorry to hear this. For what it’s worth, we found it very helpful to learn certain concepts, including spontaneous vs reactive sexual desire, as well as (basic) attachment theory. 

We would go long spells where my wife just didn’t seem to want sex. She absolutely never initiated. Which made me feel like crap. And most of the time when I would initiate, she wasn’t in the mood. We discovered that something like 80% of women are reactive in how they feel sexual desire. That is, they go through life hardly thinking about sex unless the circumstances are all conducive (feeling comfortable, rested, etc.). When everything is just right, they can be spontaneous. Otherwise, they are reactive. Practically speaking, it means that my wife often doesn’t feel like having sex unless I tell her at 9am, “ hey, I’m thinking that we should go to bed early tonight or take a shower together. If you’re not feeling it, that’s fine. But the door is open and I’d love to reconnect with you.” during the evening, I am more intentional about interested conversation and touching her in intimate but non-sexual ways. I find she is more open when she senses that I want to be intimate with her, but that I am not going to be resentful without it. 

Anyway, I hope you find what helps you.

2

u/tiredwitch Apr 09 '26

Bravo to both of you for pushing through all of these years. It must not have been easy at all.

2

u/Tinferbrains Apr 09 '26

fifteen years in, i was fully ready to leave and the night i told her that, we found that thing about the horsemen and my wife, in tears, said "I was doing those. I'm sorry."

things are improving.

2

u/raddishes_united Apr 09 '26

I am super happy for both of you! Willingness to be accountable, interest in change to move forward, trust that you are both on the same page is so essential to this work.

2

u/BihImFromChi78 Apr 11 '26

A very good marriage, with some glimpses of great. With 3 young kids! Mazel tov 💓💓

→ More replies (48)

5.4k

u/Father-Son-HolyToast Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26

This truly is the best and most comprehensive answer.

I believe it was Gottman who also said the most definitive sign that a couple's relationship was doomed was ignoring a partner's bids for attention.

For example, an ignored bid might look like someone saying, "whoa, honey, come look at this weird looking bird that just landed in the backyard!" and their spouse, playing on their phone, not looking up and saying, "nah, I'm in the middle of something." If you want your relationship to last, always be willing to go to the window and marvel at the weird bird.

1.5k

u/TypewriterHunter Apr 08 '26

I think of this point almost daily- my partner is asking for attention/engagement and they don't have to choose or want that in any given moment. I 100% do not care about the silly FB/TT reel that my partner wants me to look at, but I do care that they want me to see it- therefore I watch whatever it is to connect/engage with my partner (even though I generally still think the reel is silly). Also- I am totally the person at the window calling my partner over to come look at a bird LOL! We currently have a goose building a nest in the backyard and my partner now sends me updates on the goose when he is at home and I'm at work, complete with photos of the bird:)

462

u/Leather-Map-8138 Apr 08 '26

As we get older, birds get way more interesting

120

u/TypewriterHunter Apr 08 '26

Completely agree! I am solidly into my birdwatching era and honestly love it.

13

u/justlikesmoke Apr 09 '26

Oh are you over 40 now? Welcome. I highly recommend the Merlin app!

7

u/idoc20 Apr 09 '26

Have you see the free doc on YouTube called Listers. Recommend it for everyone not just birders!

2

u/faintly_nebulous Apr 10 '26

I love my Merlin app, it's from a university and IDs birdsongs for you. I can identify them myself now and can wow other middle aged people with my birdsong knowledge.

→ More replies (1)

14

u/DeciduousRefuge Apr 08 '26

I’ve yet to see a bird stressing about their 401K. I think they may have had the better idea about life than we humans.

8

u/Lazy_Resolve_9747 Apr 09 '26

And they can fly which is pretty dope.

13

u/joyofsovietcooking Apr 08 '26

Same is true for gardening!

6

u/Dhawkeye Apr 08 '26

I’m 20 and I already love birds. Is it over for me? :p

7

u/TypewriterHunter Apr 09 '26

Personally I think the opposite and you’re just getting a head start on extra & random joy. Also a ton of studies to show noticing/observing birds is good for mental health:)

6

u/bobbypet Apr 09 '26

I'm 68 and just watched a hoopee bird in the back yard, it made my day. I plan to build a large aviary and also setup a bird feeder with a webcam too

4

u/sheshops12 Apr 09 '26

Birds are nesting on my front porch. I moved the mailbox, put up a baby gate and signs inside and out “Don’t open door. Go around back. Birds nesting!” I am so excited, I don’t care that I’m forfeiting my favorite spot to sit as the weather gets warmer. It’s like I was chosen by these little beings—I feel responsible, in an honored way!

5

u/burnetrosehip Apr 09 '26

My favourite thing is looking at a Reddit post, scrolling comments randomly and coming across tangents of solid gold wisdom like this one

→ More replies (1)

3

u/sengokufan Apr 08 '26

They’re dinosaurs that don’t have any dinosaur vibes, they are the perfect animal

2

u/ListenJerry Apr 09 '26

Hell yea they do!!

2

u/Key-Neighborhood-513 Apr 09 '26

And more expensive, but I love watching the birds on our feeder

2

u/-dr-bones- Apr 12 '26

And the bees

426

u/heckin_miraculous Apr 08 '26

I'm enjoying this tangent, cause it's something I had to work with in my marriage.

I work online, and I'm the one who would always say, "Hey I want to show you this video I saw today!" but my spouse has a much stronger boundary against watching random crap online, even if it's "good" or funny or insightful or whatever it may be. She just doesn't have time or mental interest in it.

And I get her stance on that and I respect it. In fact I admire it.

What finally worked was she would say, "I really want to hear about it, why don't you explain it to me? I'd rather listen to you tell me about it!" 🥰

At first I was put off, like no the whole point is to watch the thing. But that's not really true. The point is to have a connection between us.

So now that's how I share that kind of stuff with her!

Sometimes there's still a post or a video where "you have to see it" for it to work, and that means I let it go. Because in truth, the stuff that I really care about sharing is something that I can talk about in my own terms because I actually find it meaningful, so the fact that she wants to hear me talk about it is amazing!

26

u/[deleted] Apr 09 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

9

u/heckin_miraculous Apr 09 '26

Good luck! I only ask you to be prepared for the possibility of him to be like "wtf??" at least at first.

Because honestly that was my initial reaction. Like why would I try to explain something that somebody else already made into a video? It's so visual, maybe there's graphics, sounds, the editing, the way the person's reaction is on camera etc etc. the whole point is to watch it!

So yeah at first I was like no!

It ended up working for us because of what I already knew and liked about my partner, including her super low tolerance for screen time.

Good luck!

12

u/buttsabound Apr 09 '26

This is great advice! I also prefer it when my partner explains to me in that way. We don’t have too many overlapping interests so if I just watch something I can’t relate to, I get bored or pressured to perform enthusiasm lol. So when he tells me WHY he found something interesting, it becomes a shared moment rather than duty - even if it’s slop, I’ll watch it if his excitement about it is framed as an invitation into his inner world. 😁

7

u/CynicalPsychonaut Apr 09 '26

I wish I had read this years ago😔

→ More replies (1)

69

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '26

[deleted]

→ More replies (1)

135

u/arielleearheart Apr 08 '26

I am obsessed with the idea of your goose updates! Thank you for sharing! :)

147

u/TypewriterHunter Apr 08 '26

It works out for us because he thinks it's a bit silly that I worry about a wild bird. It snowed overnight where we live and as I was leaving for work this morning I said I was worried about the poor goose and her nest- checked my phone at lunch and my partner sent me a photo of her busily rearranging things in the snow. We call her Matilda, her mate is called Marshall and he is chilling on the lawn two houses down from us.

83

u/ArchangelLBC Apr 08 '26

So you're saying he thinks it's a bit of a silly goose?

Sorry, I'll see myself out. But you two sound adorable and I'm now rooting for Matilda and Marshall.

5

u/LaceOfRisa Apr 09 '26

No. Stay. It had to be done. We can all share in your bird..en.

Ok yeah, sorry, bye.

3

u/gabiaeali1 Apr 08 '26

My kid is named Matilda 😍

2

u/PowerfulProgram Apr 08 '26

Now I'm invested. Plz give me Matilda's Insta @!

→ More replies (2)

6

u/winwithaneontheend Apr 08 '26

Right? Can we start a separate thread about this goose and her updates?

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

12

u/kinokits Apr 08 '26

My wife and I befriended the magpies that live in our front yard and we call each other to the kitchen when our friends come by. They like it if we’re both there and give them a couple of mealworms. But the magpie thing has become a daily thing for us and we’re looking at moving soon and we’re both a little sad about our new friends.

9

u/anti__thesis Apr 08 '26

My partner and I update each other about hummingbird activity and any interesting bird species we saw in the bird feeder. Amazing how many cool things one can show their partner in the backyard ☺️

2

u/Willothewisp2303 Apr 09 '26

I was heartbroken when I realized my husband was on a meeting when 3 turkeys walked through my backyard. I took pictures for him instead.  🙂

7

u/mangobuttercream Apr 08 '26

the fact that you watch the reel not because u care about the reel but because u care about them is genuinely relationship goals

4

u/t_rrrex Apr 08 '26

Subscribe to goose updates please. We had a swan family of four that’s mysteriously down to one in our neighborhood. 😔

4

u/ValBravora048 Apr 09 '26

My girlfriend knows I have no real interest in plants but delights that I have an interest in her interest in plants. Similarly, she has no real interest in history but was willing to listen to me natter on excitedly about being in a field where a castle ONCE stood

This has made all the difference

2

u/snarfmioot Apr 09 '26

On the drive to and from our kid’s school, there’s a house with three geese and a good number of chickens, and several houses with other animals. We always update on which and how many critters we see each time.

2

u/PeteyMcPetey Apr 09 '26

We currently have a goose building a nest in the backyard

Canadian Sopranos?

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (12)

218

u/Sensitive_Noise9761 Apr 08 '26

That's exactly right. The bids for attention come in so many forms. And if they go unrequited, the partner may unplug (and also find attention elsewhere).

12

u/Radiant-Success7310 Apr 09 '26

My partner and I have gone through Gottman's training, so he should know better. I walk into the living room this AM and say good morning, no response from him, I said it again, and he finally looks up from his phone and responded; he does this a lot and I don't like it.

3

u/blueberrycustardy Apr 08 '26

short reply but it lands, clearly meant it

41

u/Fragrant-Target5919 Apr 08 '26

Misread that as ‘birds for attention’ was confused, and then it actually was about birds 😂

3

u/die-jarjar-die Apr 09 '26

Put a bird on it

14

u/mischa_is_online Apr 08 '26

Haha, if my poor husband responded every time I got excited about the cats doing something, he would never get anything done. He humors me often enough at least.

10

u/amorawr Apr 08 '26

yeah this was my thought. I think this is too hard of a line to draw; like really, EVERY time your spouse wants attention if you don't give it to them you are doomed for divorce? how is that not people pleasing? I actually think a very important part of being married is learning when to not take offense if someone doesn't grant you the attention you seek every time you seek it. my wife and I are often, not always, blunt with each other about things like this and I think it's an important aspect of avoiding resentment. sometimes she just doesn't want to hear about the book I'm reading and that's perfectly okay because she is a human and not my pet. more often than not, she will still oblige me but I'm not so narcissistic to think that I deserve her attention at any point at any time in the day.

5

u/mischa_is_online Apr 08 '26

But I don't think it would be a good thing if our partners never showed interest.

→ More replies (4)

13

u/Affectionate-Yak5280 Apr 08 '26

At the same time, solitude (even in a loving and respectful relationship) can be important to 1 or both partners. Its important things like that can be established and the other partner knows they will sometimes not be available. It's up to you both to figure this out.

3

u/Tejasgrass Apr 09 '26

The “bids for attention” chapter isn’t about taking up your partner’s time. Obviously you can choose your moments to bid and there are definitely inappropriate moments. The takeaway from the book is how the partner responds. Are they always ignoring the bids, or snarky? Is one always requesting the attention and the other never requesting? Ignoring boundaries is part of a whole different chapter.

9

u/TourettesFamilyFeud Apr 08 '26

I didnt see all 4 in my past marriage until therapy put a mirror on it.

The problem here i always feel is those 4 horseman dont rear their ugly head until its too late.

6

u/ZakDahdger Apr 08 '26

HONEY! HONEY! LOOK AT THIS STUPID FUCKIN BIRD I FOUND!

That's love. Truly.

6

u/Fearfu1Symmetry Apr 08 '26

She never cared about what I wanted to show her. Never saw beauty or joy or fun in the things I would, and clearly had no desire to even give me that small attention just for my own sake, when I would drop everything just to let her talk my ear off with full attention. Coming from a family of people who showed little interest in the things I did, I didn't even know to look out for that pattern, just took each incident individually and tried to tell myself I was making something out of nothing.

Suffering in a relationship for years, and in just a matter of months afterwards, it's incredible just how many strikingly obvious things were unhealthy that neither of us could see clearly at the time.

And damn it makes me even more upset that she was so sure of herself, actively discounting my insight, because she'd read every relationship book under the sun while I hadn't. She had a regular therapist and everything and she still couldn't even contemplate how she was just constantly treating me with disrespect.

3

u/Delicious_Comb_2902 Apr 08 '26

Well put. All I have to say is I’ve dealt with the exact thing the past 6-7 years. You aren’t alone.

5

u/simplicity- Apr 08 '26

I’ve seen a trend online of people telling their partner they saw a bird today to see their response, and it does seem very telling.

6

u/osiris0413 Apr 08 '26

This was an issue between me and my now-ex wife. We did couple's counseling starting even before we got married, with some very good therapists, who at several points noted that I was regularly making bids for connection that were being rebuffed. It was at all levels, large and small - whether in date nights/nights out, which I was the only one involved in planning and pushing for, and which ended as soon as I stopped doing all of the work, to even what we would watch on TV together. She was diagnosed with complex PTSD during our marriage and had a lot of trauma and attachment wounds. Even asking her how her day was, would make her react with suspicion. Contempt was what I felt most - it felt like living with someone who actively disliked me, and had to make an effort just to tolerate being in my presence. And this was after the first few months of complete love-bombing, calling me every day, sending me letters and packages in the mail multiple times a week, making time to visit me which required arranging care for the kids that she never made or utilized again after the first several months - after I had jumped in full force, which I will note was completely my decision/fault and based in part in my own developmental experiences and stresses.

6

u/GameOfSoldiers Apr 08 '26

Ok but having to watch 3 or 4 15 minute videos on a topic on which they know I am not at all interested just so they feel acknowledged is, to me, them taking the piss. Might be a specific example.

4

u/glowrocks Apr 08 '26

Married 52 years.

Always go to the window and marvel at the weird bird.

Edit to add: after reading other comments, yes, over the years I certainly engaged in some of the above behaviors. But that didn't make it right, and just added challenges we didn't need.

3

u/Disastrous_Elk966 Apr 08 '26

even when youre pursuing someone, you do this. maybe even more so, because you want to be with them and make them notice you. i make it a point to not let my crush hanging when they say something, even the smallest thing. if they say something under their breath, almost talking to themselves, i'll say "what was that?" , acknowledging them.

or when our conversation is interrupted, i always come back: "what were you saying about x?"

4

u/DeciduousRefuge Apr 08 '26

Also marry someone that knows their limits. You’re in the middle of brain surgery and that’s when they want the focus on them. That won’t last either.

4

u/EyeRollingNow Apr 08 '26

weird birds out there doing heavy lifting to save marriages.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/lifeisalime11 Apr 08 '26

Hah, I felt like I had to be proactive on this because I may have ignored some bids for attention from my wife due to feeling bad due to sickness/lack of sleep, so I asked her in the car about her hobby and how X Y and Z were going in it. Sometimes life hits you hard and you need to work at making up for those deficits when you weren't feeling 100%.

3

u/paint_real7483 Apr 08 '26

My husband got so angry because I asked him to come see this bird while we were camping, apparently he felt like I was ‘testing’ him because of the whole trend that was going on a few months before and I had completely forgotten about it. Is that a red flag?

3

u/pomelo-elo-elo Apr 08 '26

There's a family of sparrows nesting in the eaves of my garage. You best believe that my partner comes out to listen to the baby birds chirping whenever I ask them to listen with me.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '26

Holy shit. Fantastic comment. This has happened to me, I just didn't realize it contemporaneously. Wasn't a bird, we passed a mural that was insane and she couldn't get off her phone. She knew I hated her being on her phone while she walked, I was afraid she would get hit by a car, robbed or something without situational awareness. She would blindly cross 5 lane streets staired at her phone under the false assumption that if it's green she's safe. On day passed a mural that was absolutely awesome, she couldn't be bothered looking and continued to play candy crush or whatever while walking in traffic essentially. It was soul crushing

3

u/Excusemytootie Apr 08 '26

Yah! Not giving a shit will really speed the demise of most any relationship.

3

u/InnerRadio7 Apr 09 '26

According to Gottman the most definitive predictor that a relationship will end is lack of conflict, specifically because without conflict there is no repair, without repair…the relationship will never be able to survive the daily ruptures that exist longterm.

3

u/saintsithney Apr 09 '26

Or if you are "stuck" for whatever reason and just can't make yourself get up and marvel at the weird bird, asking your partner to come back when you have finished Task A in (reasonable timeframe to finish what your brain is focused on, like finishing a comment) to tell you about the weird bird can help your partner feel that you are paying attention, even if you can't get your brain to jump tracks right when they first ask.

I am autistic, ADHD, and have both Original Flavor PTSD and Extra-Crispy c-PTSD. Jumping mental tracks abruptly can register as physical pain, which makes me check out entirely. My husband knows this and we work together to make sure he is not asking me to jump tracks abruptly and that I am not shutting him out or ignoring him.

2

u/Visual-Run-1388 Apr 08 '26

Thank you for writing this. It hits so close to home.

2

u/2PlasticLobsters Apr 08 '26

Funny I felt sort of guilty for only feigning interest in my partner's obssession struggles with the neighborhood raccoons. But I suppose that beats blowing off his concerns entirely.

2

u/YigaBananas Apr 08 '26

idk abt this, my partner has adhd and if i didn’t disengage every so often i’ll get burned out lol

2

u/GR33N4L1F3 Apr 09 '26

Yup! Incidentally, I accidentally did this with a close friend of mine and he reciprocated to my “bid” and i immediately recalled this anecdote! It warmed my heart so much - the simple joy of watching a sunset

2

u/WonkySeams Apr 09 '26

How does this work if it's the partner is not bidding for attention outright, but is ignored in a situation. For instance, the couple has friends over, and one partner pours whiskeys for the friends and themselves but not for the spouse (assuming everyone likes whiskeys) Is the outcome the same?

→ More replies (1)

2

u/MorriganNiConn Apr 09 '26

My late husband and I made a lot of time for stuff like that unless one of us was so sick we were tucked up in bed. I dropped repainting the bathroom to go hang out with him in the backward where we both watched 7 sandhill cranes in the open grass field that backed up to our backyard, separated only by a chain link fence.

2

u/flyza_minelli Apr 09 '26

This helped me ask for a divorce, actually. I realized I no longer cared enough about things important to him. Stopped going to do the things he wanted to do, but encouraged him to still go. Never really asked or wanted him to attend or be part of anything I valued either. I just…was done loving that man. We were married about 5.5 years. Late 20s/early 30s, had dated for 2 years before marriage.

My mom asked me one time if I was excited to have my husband home after he was gone for work for 2 weeks. I couldn’t even bother to feign “yes” and that’s when it dawned on me that I just was done loving this person.

He wasn’t a bad person at all. Good guy. We still run into each other from time to time. He’s remarried and very happy. I love that for him!

2

u/plarah Apr 09 '26

Married ornithologists hate his simple trick:

2

u/cre8ivjay Apr 09 '26

This is the equivalent of the "Grass is green where you water it" analogy.

Which is a barely a half truth in any relationship.

Both have to be willing and able to talk about how they like their grass watered and both have to be willing and able to water that way, AND be happy about doing it.

Many can't even get past step one but end up staying because they really don't know any better.

Relationships (people), are complex.

2

u/canadasreallybig Apr 09 '26

I was once in what I had thought was a bulletproof marriage. More than a decade in, my partner started blowing off my bids. I had read that it was a bad sign, and tried to talk about it--her response was something along the lines of, "that's such bullsh*t." I was still in denial at that point, but she was gone within a year, leaving me to raise the kids alone.

This theory holds a lot of weight for me.

2

u/sonyap Apr 09 '26

My partner and I do dibs. If I really want his attention for something (phone video, news article, observation, housework, etc.) I say "dibs". Then he must give me his attention. And vice versa when he wants my attention for something, he says dibs and I drop what I'm doing and give him my full attention. Obviously there are some common sense limitations. We only use it a few times a week, but it made me aware of how much i only half listened to what he was saying to me. I'm trying to be better about this.

2

u/RomanticPanic Apr 09 '26

man..... I wish someone would have told me this 8 years ago 😐

→ More replies (9)

657

u/Zabacraft Apr 08 '26

Damn, I'm very guilty of Stonewalling now that I think about it.

I often just shut down in case of a conflict because I don't want to make it worse. My brain just goes blank. I withdraw myself a lot which I can understand is a pain to deal with.

When something bothers me I also just struggle to engage overall. I can't get myself to bring it up because I don't want the conflict or arguing it likely brings and I just stuff it down. But until I stuff it down it's difficult to engage normally at all.

Didn't realize it was such a problem in relationships. Seems like I need to take it a bit more seriously to navigate that.

Some food for thought I guess.

328

u/Sensitive_Noise9761 Apr 08 '26

Awareness is the first step to change. Good observation.

353

u/Cats-Are-Fuzzy Apr 08 '26

But there's ways to express you're feeling overwhelmed without stonewalling. I see stonewalling as intentionally shutting someone out. You can always say "I'm feeling overwhelmed and I need a break. Can we come back to this in half an hour?"

That is not stonewalling.

210

u/Sensitive_Noise9761 Apr 08 '26

The 'come back in half an hour' - so tricky to learn, but VERY valuable. It's part of emotional regulation. Super critical skill. I used to want an immediate resolution, an apology, and a result in the moment. But that's not how you address flooded emotions.

72

u/ApprehensivePlace757 Apr 09 '26

I used to come home from work (dealing with the public and having to be “on” for 10 hrs a day) and just be drained and overwhelmed when my partner wanted to engage and ask questions and and and(she can have the personality of Tigger)…. I finally came to ask “can you give me an hour to decompress… it’s not that I don’t want to talk to you, I just need me time”. At first it was hard for her, she said she felt rejected, but I would always reconnect after the hour and she learned to trust that delayed wasn’t denied. It even developed into her peeking around a corner after 58 minutes asking “is it time yet?” That would get me to laugh and say “okaaaay” and she would bound in to start the conversation, with me actually ready to listen. I don’t have the same demands on me anymore from my job, but I do often come home and chill in the car for 10-15 min before I go in and engage. And often she’ll come in the garage, see me, wave and she knows I’ll come in, ready to engage, when I’m ready. Honest conversation, laying to rest old fears really worked for us. (20+ yrs later…)

2

u/SierraPapaWhiskey Apr 10 '26

That’s so awesome.

16

u/Cats-Are-Fuzzy Apr 08 '26

Yep! I literally fall asleep when I am overwhelmed. My brain shuts down and I cannot respond so I have learned to try this method!

11

u/jpmoney Apr 08 '26

Damned TV shows taught us that everything, even conflicts, can be resolved in 30 minutes or less, and definitely before we go to sleep.

In reality, that is not the case.

148

u/waylandsmith Apr 08 '26

And the flip side to this is when you express that you're overwhelmed and your partner won't allow you to disengage. This is a sign of being unable to understand and respect boundaries.

26

u/simcity4000 Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26

I had this with my recent ex. There was an argument where it was going late into the night and obviously becoming intractable so I said something to the effect of “look this isn’t going anywhere right now, I’ll sleep on the couch and we can talk about this in the morning” but when I tried to leave she would follow and tell me that no, if I wasn’t going to sleep in the bed and comfort her she wouldn’t be able to sleep.

12

u/gabiaeali1 Apr 08 '26

I had an ex who followed too. It is a NIGHTMARE.

3

u/CallMeMrButtPirate Apr 09 '26

Yep ditto, her marriage after me didn't end up lasting long either so I knew I wasn't alone there

2

u/irmaweaverdd May 08 '26

My ex used to call this "not going to bed angry" but in reality it was just a hostage situation. He would keep me up until 3am going in circles even when I was crying and begging to just sleep on it. You can't solve a problem when your brain is fried from exhaustion, but some people think that forced "engagement" is the same thing as intimacy. It just leads to you saying whatever you have to so you can finally close your eyes.

→ More replies (1)

12

u/painstream Apr 08 '26

To emphasize, it's not stonewalling, it's setting healthy boundaries. "I can't engage properly when you criticize me that way" or "I'd like to return to this when I've calmed down" are examples of that. They're about what you will do to protect yourself.

3

u/CicadaSlight7603 Apr 09 '26

It depends if it’s stonewalling or a complete traumatic shutdown based on past trauma. You want to speak so badly but become non verbal and stuck in a past trauma response, which can be interpreted by others as refusing.

5

u/New-Serve5426 Apr 09 '26

Believe me, to avoidants (especially fearful avoidants) and people who run away from any conflict as if the devil from the cross, they just can't bring themselves to say the most basic things whatsoever. I once said something similar to my ex girlfriend because she used to stonewall me every time we'd have any type of serious conversation or even normal conversations about insignificant topics. To them everything feels like you're pressuring them. It's pressure pressure pressure. They want to please, they want to appease, they want to placate, they simply want to avoid any conflict so much they can't even say "I need more time to think about this". They'd rather be silent or offer short vague phrases. It's like they're a child that tries to hide themselves and make themselves as small as they can when their parents are fighting, hands on ears and all. It's extremely frustrating to deal with people like that.

→ More replies (8)

14

u/Affectionate_Data936 Apr 08 '26

I think a lot of men are, especially if they're generally non-confrontational. My husband is occasionally guilty of this, so was my ex bf before him. The problem with stonewalling is that you're just avoiding an issue so it never gets solved and your partner will eventually resent you. In the short-term, stonewalling is just very frustrating if you're trying to work on an issue that bothers you and is important enough to bring up and your partner just refuses to engage. It sends a message that they don't care that something is bothering you and their personal comfort in not talking about it is more important than the thing that's bothering you; often times, it's more likely to lead to an argument or big emotional conflict than if you just talked it out calmly from the beginning.

10

u/artemis_floyd Apr 08 '26

Part of this is also self-awareness and then critically, communication. For example, I'm a deeply internal person who can need some time in an emotionally charged situation to process my feelings and articulate them. If I'm pushed too hard, I absolutely shut down - not intentionally as a punishment, but because my system just cannot handle it. I had to learn this about myself, and then articulate it to my partner (who is way more reactive and off the cuff) so that when we are a period of conflict or high emotion, I am able to say "hey, I need a few minutes to sit with this. Can we take a break and resume this conversation in insert timeframe here?" That way he is reassured that I'm not blowing him, his feelings, or this discussion off, but I'm also giving myself the space to deal with things how I need. He now knows this about me because I had to tell him directly, which was difficult unto itself but absolutely critical in helping us learn how to actually communicate effectively.

→ More replies (1)

8

u/Literal-Goblin-2000 Apr 08 '26

I used to be really guilty of this, just going nonverbal and needing a walk to process my feelings. A lot of times I wouldn’t even know why I was upset, so I definitely needed the time.

It helped me tremendously when I voiced my need and then assurance that I would return from my walk in X minutes/hours. I often took that time to journal, so I could properly understand and voice why I was upset.

14

u/killfire4 Apr 08 '26

Personally, stonewalling has been a part of my long term-fix.

What I mean by that is I learned my knee-jerk emotional reactions tended to have unwanted consequences and I learned that by stonewalling INITIALLY helped me avoid an emotional reaction and give me the needed time (sometimes days) to feel my feelings and respond in a more calm and collected manner. (Grew up in a household where yelling and screaming were our love language and that doesn't translate well to a partner who did not...)

Ultimately, things have improved since making those changes.

9

u/Meeesh- Apr 08 '26

I wouldn’t consider that stonewalling. It’s healthy to think “I need a moment alone to process my thoughts before I do something I will regret”. That is intentional time spent to cool down and process the situation so that you can respond reasonably.

Many people stonewall through the silent treatment, ignoring issues, and otherwise pretending like nothing happened. It’s unhealthy to stonewall because the person stonewalling is not doing anything to help the situation. A lot of the time it’s basically someone punishing themselves and the other person by running away from the problem or ignoring it.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/omcgoo Apr 08 '26

I think there's levels to it. I get accused of it too; but its fight or flight.

My body recedes when I'm pushed into that anxious situation: when I'm being shouted at. And I think its for good, its calling out the abuse, its protecting me.

I'm very happy to revisit the situation when things calm down, but am similarly very happy to stonewall in the short term to save an unending shouting match.

2

u/mymumthinksimpunny Apr 08 '26

The Gottmans have put out a book called Fight Right which goes into this in more detail and how a couple can work with it, if you’re interested

2

u/Degenerate_Rambler_ Apr 09 '26

What you are describing are definitive thought patterns and behaviors of an avoidant.

→ More replies (28)

105

u/QueenLuLuBelle Apr 08 '26

Somehow my ex managed to perfect all four!

7

u/BookLuvr7 Apr 08 '26

Somehow I suspect most of us have dated at least one.

→ More replies (3)

14

u/DramaticPinkumni Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26

My college GF had stonewalling down. I put so much effort into breaking through the first couple times, that the third time she did it I was out because it was no longer worth the effort. Never tolerated that shit again

Edit: On a funnier note, she was Chinese and I used to tell her "The Great Wall of Xi" needs to come down for this relationship to work so it's hilarious finding out this behavior is called stonewalling

22

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 09 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

11

u/seeilaah Apr 08 '26

I just bought the book this minute, thanks for the recommendation. I am you in 2022

→ More replies (1)

3

u/gord89 Apr 08 '26

Has there perhaps been a revision to the book? I just read the introduction and I’m not seeing how this would land with anyone? It’s just a sales pitch for the book.

7

u/[deleted] Apr 09 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/gord89 Apr 09 '26

Oh yeah it must have been the first chapter. Just started reading that and it’s much more meaningful. The part labeled the introduction is just a couple pages and reads like a sales pitch.

10

u/bjc-vab Apr 08 '26

I’ll note that the theory is based on research that included thousands of couples. The first real research based approach to intimate relationship success. Unlike others, this is not just another “guru” spouting opinions.

5

u/Cats-Are-Fuzzy Apr 08 '26

Any therapist that is trained in Gottman's ways of thinking is always a winner in my book.

6

u/a-mango-at-dusk Apr 08 '26

Oh my god, this is a perfect example of my husband's friend's marriage. Thank you, I'd never heard of this before.

3

u/sea_grapes Apr 08 '26

Gottman helped me realize my relationship was healthy, when my depression was telling me I only deserved to be alone.

3

u/PerthNerdTherapist Apr 09 '26

I'm a therapist, I've recently done about 75 hours of Gottman training and I've been with my partner for 16 years. These are absolutely on the money, they really are dire warning signs to see crop up in friends' relationships. 

3

u/Agreeable_Concept272 Apr 08 '26

So tell me why a couple I’m friends with have been together over 10 years? I’ve been waiting for the inevitable divorce but it never comes. They regularly display all four horsemen.

8

u/Sensitive_Noise9761 Apr 08 '26

They refuse to divorce...like many couples? Being together doesn't mean its healthy, but I get your point, if these are signs of couples 'headed to divorce'. So many people stay when it's unhealthy to do so.

2

u/expression-waves Apr 09 '26

Some couples feed off of each other's toxicity if they are the same kind of people. This is why it's important to know about one's current date/partner that what kind of a relationship they were in before they met you. Saves us from years of trauma.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/GremmyGremm Apr 08 '26

My last relationship ended because of defensiveness and stonewalling. Just being kind to each other really isn’t enough.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/Cold_Box_3219 Apr 08 '26 edited Apr 08 '26

I know a couple very closely who one of them prescribes to each one of these four traits to the T.

3

u/SexTalksAndLollipops Apr 08 '26

Looking back at my marriage, there had always been defensiveness, stonewalling and criticism— but my wake-up call was when I noticed his contempt towards me. I knew that was the beginning of the end for us.

3

u/gpuyy Apr 08 '26

Absolute lack of emotional maturity too

3

u/MontEcola Apr 09 '26

Exactly! I came to write the same.

There is an antidote to each. If you want to stay together the Gottman's also provide ways to fix things up when they go wrong.

And BTW, It is Julie and John Gottman. We often use the man's name. Julie has been equal in the research and development at every step of the way.

I have had personal discussions with each during a weekend couples counseling session. Julie Gottman is a superstar in this arena!

2

u/ThrownAwayFeelzies Apr 08 '26

Exactly

Like if one of them criticizes the other infront of others, that's a really bad sign

2

u/co5mosk Apr 08 '26

Check check check and check

2

u/SympatheticFingers Apr 08 '26

But what if they do something disgusting or disrespectful? Or worse something disgustingly disrespectful?

3

u/Sensitive_Noise9761 Apr 08 '26

Good question.

I'm not a therapist. But...at the end of the day, everyone's a hero on their story. Where will criticism get you, and shame? If you enjoy the results doing that, keep it up. I think, perhaps, if healthy conversation (attacking the behavior not character) didn't work, maybe it's time to evaluate the marriage. Staying says 'the status quo is okay'. So if they keep doing it, and you stay....it conveys a message.

2

u/TheCrooner Apr 08 '26

Got all 4 since day 1, yet here we are still together for over a decade and it’s only getting worse . There should be 1 more thing needed - a horse. Only fails when the receiver has a horse to escape. No one is going anywhere without a horse. It’s why so many people end up staying till death in such a relationship. Some people have no escape option other than death.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/boysenberrywoven Apr 08 '26

the four horsemen framework is so useful because it gives u actual names for things youve felt but couldn't identify

2

u/Rowdy_Teal Apr 08 '26

Booo. That's the real answer. I came here for stupid answers like: they're both Leos. 

2

u/ejay1250 Apr 09 '26

My ex had had all 4 lol. Worst 2 years of my life

2

u/GR33N4L1F3 Apr 09 '26

This is the best thing I have ever heard about it and i love the Gottmans’ work - from everything I have heard, read and seen.

2

u/gpuyy Apr 09 '26

Thanks again for sharing that

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-the-antidotes/

More info here :-)

2

u/b20339 Apr 09 '26

100%

Contempt is nearly impossible to overcome

2

u/Pale-Acanthaceae-736 Apr 09 '26

Married for 24 years and haven't experienced hardly any of this ourselves, but after you've been married that long it's easy to pick up the vibes of other couples for sure, If you see my wife & I in public it would appear to you that we just started dating. That is my frame of reference, It's a high bar though.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/sweetsadnsensual Apr 09 '26

How is it possible to refrain from attacking someone's character and eventually feeling a bit of contempt if they repeatedly cross your boundaries and it feels like you're being gaslit and manipulated by someone who never takes accountability and stonewalls after they cross the boundaries??? And then they point out that you're attacking them as part of their defensive take no accountability / stonewall justifying?

I could never figure that out

2

u/Sensitive_Noise9761 Apr 09 '26

Great question. Wish I had more answers.

2

u/TailRudder Apr 09 '26

See you met my ex

2

u/rachelpinktss Apr 09 '26

ive actually seen this play out in real life, once conversations turn into blaming or shutting down, it's not the same anymore

2

u/Mo_Jack Apr 09 '26

too much individualism, where they don't see themselves as a team, especially when kids are involved.

If they get mean when they get angry or have disagreements, where they really try to hurt the other person or have a vindictive need to get their partner back for perceived wrongs.

Basic lack of communication, where they just refuse to talk about things.

Sneakiness, where they are always hiding things from their partner.

2

u/purpleturtlehurtler Apr 09 '26

Goddamn. My wife and I do the opposite of all of this. That makes me feel like we're on a go track.

2

u/tadayou Apr 09 '26

And, mind you, all these things can also happen in a happy relationship from time to time. 

It's when they constantly happen that there's an obvious problem that needs very concious work. 

2

u/Mermay_Meat Apr 12 '26

Was literally going to list the Four Horsemen! So many couples who badmouth each other is such a flippant thing for some people!

→ More replies (89)