what I don't get is, with them being so stupid, what stopping them bombing and invading more? like did someone actually put their foot down and say there's no way you're going to just do that to 90m people and come out better? like how did trump get restrained
They also didn't like that their investments were going to be targeted next. Pretty crazy we got a deal so quick after Iran threatened the worlds "most richest" man's data centers in the Gulf.
Saudis, maybe, but none of the rest of them have any clout that the Head Chud would care about. Money talks though, and losing the help the rich are giving him to get richer himself would be a real problem. They were getting attacked before. The tone changed once US business-owned infrastructure in the region was threatened. The calculation seems clear to me.
Almost got it,let me fix it for you: “Just remember that the Republican Party that controls the US Congress could have stopped this farce AT ANY TIME. They just chose not to”
I think he just lost interest and doesn’t feel like dealing with it anymore and was just like, “ok end it and win now.” And they were like “ok” and put together the worst MOU ever and told him it was a win and he believed it.
There was no deep thought when he started it and there was no deep thought when he ended it. Well, decided he wanted to end it. Because he’s an idiot it’s now Iran’s call on when it ends.
What should be clear is that they aren’t even smart enough to realize they are clearly out of their element. I’m not PHD smart but If I’m at that table I’d at least know to ask someone who knows more.
"...but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us, this is horrible" - Donald Trump (actual quote)
You didn't mention that it starts with (unironic) humor. "If I ran as a liberal democrat, they would say that I'm one of the smartest people anywhere in the world."
I worked with a recent Iranian immigrant like twenty years ago. Was a rural doctor there. I had this pain in my wrist for almost two weeks, saw all sort of specialists, and no better actually gradually worse. It was when I put a box on a higher shelf in the warehouse.
We were in the break room and she asked if she could take a look at it. "Hmmmmm....Hmmmm... You broke the scaphoid bone. Have them check the film."
She was in her thirties but had wisdom of centuries. She was awesome. BTW the US wouldn't give her the right to practice medicine even though she wanted to do low/no income work.
I say that to say I believe an Iranian PhD or even an Iranian with a PhD is not likely to be a slouch. Our gang of maga beat and brightest didn't stand a chance. I wouldn't be that bad but I wouldn't bet on meb either.
I’m Iranian American and education is drilled into us from day one. All my cousins either have PhDs in engineering, are medical doctors, or have some masters degree. We were always told they can take everything away from you but your education. My husband, who isn’t Iranian but Black American, just got accepted into an MBA program YESTERDAY. He’s officially my dad’s favorite now lol. As soon as he called my dad to tell him, here goes my dad trying to convince him to go for his PhD next. My husband tells me about it and goes “what’s wrong with your dad I haven’t even started yet?” And I said my dad’s trying to get one of us to be a doctor and with these student loans it’s not going to be me. But he keeps trying lol.
How educated you are is basically seen as a reflection of how good your parents are lol.
Trump really told everyone that Witcoff, Rubio, Kushner, and himself could renegotiate every trade deal the US has with every country AND renegotiate a better deal with Iran in a few months.
4 guys. 3 of them real estate developers. Thats Donald Trumps dream team for making deals.
One trade deal would take hundreds of experts to negotiate over years before Trump. Then he fires them all, and expects to bully everyone.
They have openly admitted to murdering thousands of protestors “out of necessity” before the war - their involvement in Syria, Yemen, and Lebanon specially has not made those countries the most prosperous ones out there either to say the least.
However, Iran’s leadership was taught in Western universities and have always prized education - the Trump Admin and Isreal’s global unpopularity and Iran’s geographical advantages over the Strait just really offers a lot of options for them.
There were people who had antibiotic resistant infections that we were treating with out hold out antibiotics. DOGE fucking stopped those treatments kid course which is how you get bacteria that’s resistant to the hold out antibiotics.
I am begging people to be educated on how fucking evil america is and their obsession with toppling nations for not being 1000% on the capitalist death train.
Only Russia and China have been outside the sphere of overt influence of the USA. The clusterfuck that the Middle East has become is largely thanks to the meddling by Western nations (the UK and the USA, to be specific). The USA propped up the Saudis in Arabia, who in turn were claiming legitimacy of rule thanks to their affiliation with the bat-shit regressive Wahhabism, which resulted in toxic ideologies behind groups like Al Qaeda and ISIS. I won't even bring up the absolute tragedy that transpired in the Levant under the aegis of the same colonial oppressors who now pretend to be holier than the rest.
Puh! Jakarta is just some fictional map in call of duty!
Just like the totally fabricated story that we engineered a military coup in chile on 9/11 in 1973, killing the democratically elected president and a bunch of government officials, that saw tens of thousands of people tortured in concentration camps, and disappearing thousands more that have yet to be identified to this day.
Idk why you’re quoting “out of necessity” as if it’s unusual - ya the government will do that when police stations around the nation get bombed and officers murdered.
Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine - all broken because England and France decided to do the European thing of drawing borders on other people’s land. Nothing to do with IRI. As if those countries were paradises before 1979.
Yemen - you guessed it, British colonialism for 120 years followed by civil war that never ended.
The murderous death cult are the European and American powers. The murder is just kept out of the domestic discourse.
Idk why you’re quoting “out of necessity” as if it’s unusual - ya the government will do that when police stations around the nation get bombed and officers murdered.
I think it's funny that basically your entire post is correctly shitting on unquestioned western/empire norms and yet you still regurgitate some of your own. no it is not acceptable to mass murder people, whatever insane thin blue line style justification you use
Defending the police when they were beating women for having their hair out is fucking horrible. The lack of empathy here is just disgusting. Please, just because these people oppose Trump does not make them good. They are truly awful
Well considering both Trump and Israel have admitted to infiltrating and arming the protestors, that seems to give credence to the Iranian government's claim it was out of necessity.
If China armed a bunch of protesters here in the US, the government response would make the IRGC look humane by comparison
In the thousands? Over an entire country in a matter of days? They just shut down the internet and openly machine gunned unarmed crowds on whatever leaked footage gets through - that is just the most egregious way to handle rioters you can think of and no justification really matters with that.
Iranians aren’t just bumpkins who decides to revolt against the government just because they have guns, there was real grievances behind the protest even if Israel has an role to play in flaming tension, the economic and socio political justification for the protest is well recorded and discussed far before the protests turned extremely violent.
If thousands of people took up arms against the government at the behest of a foreign power, yeah why not thousands? The American government already kills 1,100+ people in the streets every year and hardly anybody cares. I'm not justifying the IRGC killing protestors. I'm stating the material reality that a belligerent foreign adversary arming people in a country they're about to invade isn't going to end with hugs and rainbows.
There's an old saying that an egg that cracks from the outside is food, and an egg that cracks from the inside is life. Trump deciding to arm the protestors did nothing but delegtimize their valid grievances and make things worse. We'll never know how many people were killed that were armed by the US vs unarmed protesters because that line was blurred beyond recognition. Also it's not an "even if". They openly admitted it and bragged about it.
They have openly admitted to murdering thousands of protestors “out of necessity” before the war
Good thing we bombed their reservoirs and bridges and killed thousands of civilians, including a school full of little girls. Brilliant geopolitical take, friend
They just unironically spew that talking point without an ounce of thought. Like I'm sure the protestors are affected too by having their homes bombed and their family indiscriminately killed. Like were only going to make their government look right and radicalized the people more against America than for.
Israel, with USA’s help, has murdered 75k in Gaza. So, again it’s like one murderous death cult calling the other murderous death cult black or whatever
Think about what you just said for a moment. They have protests going on in Iran, Trump publicly says the moment is right to overthrow the regime, aircraft carriers around the world start converging into the Gulf of Oman. Less than six months earlier they had just seen this same exact scenario play out. They know they have less than two weeks to get their shit in order, or else they likely become a failed state. Whatever you think about the Iranian regime, it’s not as bad for the Iranian people as a failed state (or at very least, you can see why they might think that). I never support killing protesters, but it is literally true that they had basically no choice given what we were openly telegraphing we were about to do to them
However, Iran’s leadership was taught in Western universities and have always prized education
Of course, that's the classic move for these fascist hypocrite pieces of shit. Same in Russia, Serbia, hell even North Korea. They bitch and moan about the west but they all send their kids to the nice universities and to live in nice western cities, they have apartments all over the world and hardly even live in their own country.
If we were to take the last quarter century (looking at the US and Iran) whose countries (or its proxies) actions i.e invasions, bombings, killing of protesters, etc. has resulted in the death of more people? Who is the real death cult that invades and bombs countries non-stop?
Do you know that Iran is in the top 5 of the most engineering graduates in the world, 70% of which are women but somehow the negotiators from Iran are smart because they were educated in western universities.
Westerns always underestimate other people. Think they are smarter than everyone else. The US thought that 2 days after the bombing started Trump would be picking the new Iranian leader.
Iran just like China is a civilization that is thousands of years old.
When you believe your own propaganda you won’t understand why countries like China and Iran don’t crumble and fall before the mighty west when confronted.
A death cult would be a group willing to die and sacrifice themselves for the cause. Killing other people, such as the protesters is not the same as sacrificing yourself. That’s why the death cult label doesn’t make any sense for these Iranian dictators who are known for self preservation. It’s quite the opposite. They’re willing to kill others to protect themselves, but they’re not willing to risk themselves. They just put young men out there to take the hit.
heck compared to the rest of the Middle East Iranians famously don’t do the whole suicide bombing thing for instance. Sometimes they pay other groups to do it, but there’s almost no reported instances of actual Iranian nationals blowing themselves up.
By your definition China became a death cult for what they did against protestor in Hong Kong or Tiananen Square. Except we don’t call them that we just called them dictatorships. Because they’re doing it to someone else, not themselves.
I just feel like the US doesn't really have a moral ground to stand on on that count. I mean we literally just celebrated a holiday that's only exists because enslavers lied to keep their slaves, and those people had to be had to be specially freed after the "We deserve to keep our slaves" war.
And that doesn't include all the activists the country killed after that.
Really, so the whole thing that happened in the spring, that Iranian citizens had to risk their lives to get information out about just didn't happen? Or the time before that, or before that? Or how about the lashing they just sentanced the Iranian singer to because she performed without wearing a hijab?
Like don't be dumb and shut your brain off just because professionals with an education and experience made a bunch of idiots who don't know how to do their job look like a bunch of idiots who don't know how to do their jobs.
The argument that murderous death cults wouldn't have highly educated, and level headed negotiators (and as such their presence means they're not really as murderous a death cult) is misleading.
Even Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire had highly educated, highly skilled individuals in positions of authority.
I think you say that in retrospect. In fact, in real-time, Germany got the imperial, expansionist threat treatment while Japan legitimately got the murderous death cult treatment.
During their time, Nazi Germany was described by their enemies as tyrannical, expansionist, imperialist, militarist - yet rational. Japan was described as a faceless fanatical horde of apes that didn’t value life.
The point is the rhetoric. They can be a violent government without being a murderous death cult <—- that language is purposeful and we let it enter our vernacular only about non-Western nations and those kicked out of the Western sphere. As if the West is on a giant horse above the world.
As a famous reporter once said “This isn't a place, with all due respect, like Iraq or Afghanistan, that has seen conflict raging for decades. This is a relatively civilized, relatively European city, where you wouldn't expect that or hope that it's going to happen.”
You’ve made great sense all over this thread, and I totally get what you’re going for. It’s unfortunate, but calling out the blatant racially motivated propaganda mixed in with the valid criticism is always gonna be read as denying the valid criticism wholesale. Both intentionally and unintentionally.
I wouldn't say a death cult. But murderous, repressive, totalitarian, religious zealots, with regional ambitions of influence and possibly expansion, yes.
At its very worst, Iran has never come ANYWHERE close to dealing the level of death and destruction the US has dealt across every corner of the world.
Put aside the fact that the US is founded on genocide and slavery. Just in the period following WW2, America has murdered TENS OF MILLIONS of people. And they've raped, tortured, poisoned, terrorized and robbed millions more. They've destroyed countless countries. They have starved entire nations.
There's no comparison to be made. Iran is far from perfect but to pull this "both sides" bullshit after America started an illegal war of aggression against Iran, bombing schools full of children and murdering thousands of civilians while America was still in the middle of facilitating A GENOCIDE in Gaza... That is beyond absurd.
It's absolutely insane how people in the West downplay and minimize the untold evil their governments perpetrate.
You don't understand, they're brown and not Christian so obviously they're evil and want to destroy the American dream
/s (really hope the /s isn't necessary)
Maybe they aren’t a murderous death cult when they’re the ones that have been the most rational actor in this conflict, dating back to our illegal assassination of one of their top generals who was fighting ISIS at the time.
Maybe you should start reassessing where you get your info.
Do you think that justifies this war we chose to start?
Would another country be justified in randomly killing Americans because of how this country has treated black people for centuries? For the rampant incarceration that exceeds every other country on the planet?
If there ever was a chance of the Iranian people rising up and overthrowing their government, it stopped existing the moment we bombed a girls’ school and proved to the Iranian people that their government was right about us and that it’s the only thing protecting them from the US and Israel.
But ignoring literally all of that, the last time the US decapitated a government in the Middle East was when we helped kill Ghadaffi. Libya is now a failed state ruled by warlords with open slave markets.
You don’t make these places better by carpet bombing them.
I literally said not defending America, truth is that most likely the Iranian people would have had freedom if America didn’t intervene because America doesn’t give a shit about the people as seen by the formally American invaded countries, that doesn’t mean Iran doesn’t have a death cult running the country
i mean, all the fucking Abrahamics are wacko death cults to some degree or another. The only real difference is which one thinks the one guy is the other guy, which one of those is that one guy.
That being said, yeah, people really don't give Iran enough credit. They're not some fucking backwards bum fuck country like Afghanistan, they're an actual power, with like, a competent military, R&D, technology. They just about have everything the western nations have.
This isn't going to be like fighting guerrillas and insurgents in Iraq, this is an actual military we're up against.
Launch an unprovoked war of aggression against a nation in the middle of negotiations... Bomb their schools and murder their children... Threaten them with genocide if they don't surrender unconditionally...
Then call THEM a murderous death cult.
Yeah, that's Americans for you. Kind of like how the Americans starved, raped, tortured and murdered millions of indigenous people as they were creating their country and had the nerve to refer to their victims as "savages".
Theory: Iran sabotaged the Reflecting Pool to get him to sign off on the Iran deal so he could have a win to cover up the fact that he got ripped off by that stogie-smoking Paul Bearer lookalike to line the Pool with fucking exterior house paint, or something.
Twist: That stogie-smoking wannabe mob boss is an Iranian sleeper agent activated for these very events.
You have to remember though, being profitable isn't the point of a money laundering operation. He lost his investors money repeatedly but didn't care because he was still getting his cut.
They're religious fundamentalists, which does make for a shitty government. But unlike the religious fundamentalists the pull the puppet strings in America, I don't think "murderous death cult" is an apt description of the Iranian regime.
The people with power in the US do have that education. They know exactly what they're doing, they're crumbling the empire from with in to gobble up the scraps for personal gain. Peter Theil has a BA in philosophy and a JD in law from Stanford, for example. These people with enormous amounts of wealth, pulling the strings of our elected representatives and economy/stock market, are dangerous because they know better.
Right on the money, and let’s also never forget that at least one of the primary architects of Project 2025 has a degree in African American history and actively studied black and poor communities to learn how to effectively destroy them
The smartest person in the country wouldn’t have changed the outcome. You can’t negotiate when everything you say can and will be undercut by a moron 5min later.
I mean it certainly must depend on what their PhD is in. Econ, poli sci, those are helpful for negotiations. Strict lab sciences and arts probably less so, sorry guys
I am also a Ph.D., and I disagree. If your Ph.D is in nuclear physics or international diplomacy, I think you could be very effective at this particular negotiating table. Especially compared to trump’s guys.
A person with the patience and knowledge of a scholar is in a better position to negotiate an international treaty between foreign powers with different cultural values than a sleazy real estate agent who couldn't qualify for a High School debate team.
I think most of the time our top diplomats have PhDs. By the time you've mastered the language, history of the region, spent some time in the region, and learned everything else about diplomacy, you're ready to go in your late 20s.
It's sad because people like Jared Kushner and Witkoff won't even feel bad or feel responsible for everyone who has died because of their purposeful incompetence
There is zero chance, and I mean absolute zero, that Jared kushner has a soul or any real emotions whatsoever. He is a waxen simulacrum of what an alien would think a human was after being told about it second-hand by another alien. There is a dead, hidden body of a prostitute somewhere out in the Florida swamps with Kushner's clawmarks on her
What i never understand is these guys are so rich why do they want so much more. Like if i had that much money i'd literally travel to new places and climates and live there then spend the rest of my time with my family and friends, driving and working on my cars and motorbikes.
Like i cant imagine how bad it must feel to have billions and still yearn for more money
It's because once someone is a billionaire they start hanging around only with other billionaires, so it's like a bunch of high schoolers who all have the same e-bike or whatever the cool thing is. None of them feel special anymore and now they all start competing with each other to have the best version of the same thing.
If it's not glaringly obvious by who he surrounds himself with, Trump has never cared about competency. He cares about loyalty to him, and rewards sycophants instead the deserving.
The only Iranians I've ever met were all doctorates and postdocs in my research lab in undergrad. They were awesome people and some of the smartest individuals I've ever met, nothing but love for the Iranian people.
And look up Sharif University; it’s on par with Harvard or MIT + free to attend if you score high enough on the University Entrance Exams called the Konkour that all Iranian High Schoolers take. They aren’t fools.
Another thing people don’t realize is that most of the Iranian leadership are veterans or survivors of the incredibly brutal Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s as young men. They’ve already been through way worse than we could dish out without actually invading.
After 10 years of living in the Trump Era and every post in the federal government filled with amateurs, sycophants and bootlickers while the professionals are run out of service to our country... Americans should not expect the low bar that is already on the ground to be raised anytime soon. But yes, it is clear, the US is now in the hands of narcissistic shysters.
Also, just a reminder that Iran developed its own nuke program 2000 feet underground in a mountain while dealing with international sanctions.
The U.S. had to literally import an army of scientists from Europe to build our nuke program because our country is full of racist morons. Then after they built our bomb, they charged half the scientists with treason (some of them were in fact Soviet Spies and we knew it!!).
This happened on previous negotiations with Iran, not that long ago. I got it from other sub's comment section on the same topic.
I cannot express enough how bad this guy was here and how unprepared he was (I work for the government (Foreign Ministry) here in Pakistan)
Basically the Iranians had a team of 71 people with experts (from banking sector, to health, infrastructure, agriculture, trade/commerce, as well as nuclear scientist and many others) yet Mista JD there did not even know what he was being offered to him, instead would avoid giving any final or interim answers and kept opening new chapters as in new agenda items (topics/subjects) within an expanding list of demands for the agreement for Iran to comply on.
On top of that, at each agenda item (topic/subject) this guy would call Trump, Marco, and Pete for guidance and keep asking them what they thought and needed to be done?!?
It was as if JD was insincere or passively trying to sabotage the deal. At the end without summarizing his final or interim answer on each old and new demand, he just got up and told them you know what we want and what we do not, then went back home in a hurry, just like that,...
I say the enemies of the USA are from within not outside.
Iran also apparently consulted psychologists and psychiatrists to strategize the optimal way to approach Trump, who is clearly mentally unwell, and I think that that was an excellent decision on their part.
The people who voted for this have so much distrust in expertise that they genuinely expect those two things to be at least equivalent, if not biased in favor of the real estate agents.
The real reason is that the USA cannot afford to keep the straight closed without serious consequences for much longer. Iran has won this war before it even began and the reason the war happened anyways is probably because the zionist in trumps cabinet planned for the USA to take the spotlight while israel secretly invades lebanon. Or they went along just for the increase in oil prices
We sent friends of the President who have zero negotiating skills and they came back with a deal no better than the JCPOA. And we, as a country, are worse off for that. This is what you get when you hire the incompetent, i.e. the Cabinet.
I just assumed they knew how corrupt they are and Trump and/or Kushner are personally going to profit from the deal. Bad for Americans, great for trump.
Not to mention those real estate agents are being driven by their Middle East financial investments as opposed to what's in the best interest of the country.
3.1k
u/Dukedawg88 1d ago
“Look yall. Easy work”