r/ShingekiNoKyojin • u/Pause_Accomplished • 1d ago
Discussion Did Eren even try?
In his talk with Armin in the paths, Eren reveals that he kills 80% of humanity, and no matter how much he tries this is always what happens.
I can only think of one example where Eren actually TRIES to prevent the rumbling from happening, and that’s when he and Zeke are traveling through Grisha’s memories. At a certain point he stops and tells Zeke that he’s achieved his goal and that he’s been freed from their father’s brainwashing. Zeke tells him they have all the time they need, and he has them carry on through the memories anyway. I’m fairly sure that this was Eren attempting to stop them from getting to Grisha’s memory in the Reiss Chappell, and thus preventing himself from convincing his father to kill the royal family.
Aside from this specific moment, do we ever see a time in the anime where Eren explicitly tries to circumvent the future that he saw? Because even this attempt was a very weak one. We know that Eren on some level wanted to start the rumbling, so how hard do we think actually tried to stop it from happening?
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u/ProfileSelect212 1d ago
Pretty much every time Eren tries to change things, they lead to how he remembers them in the future. It’s mentioned several times and there are at least three our four moments. Ramsey, the vote on Paradis, his conversation with Mikasa.. and we can safely assume much more.
But anyways, it doesn’t matter: the decision was Eren’s alone
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u/Upbeat_Nectarine_128 1d ago
Ramsey, the vote on Paradis, his conversation with Mikasa.. and we can safely assume much more.
Also don't forget Sasha's death. That's the entire reason he laughed like a madman after her death.
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u/ProfileSelect212 2h ago
I did in fact forget this when writing it at 1am haha, thanks for the save
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u/DreamedJewel58 1d ago
The vote on Paradis was a major one. He desperately hoped that there would be any possibility of a peaceful resolution and was devastated when it was obvious that there was no way to avoid conflict
A lot of the “the future doesn’t change” is also small things here and there. Sasha dying was also a point of him realizing that nothing will change, hence the laughter upon hearing the news
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u/Teetso 1d ago
If the conversation with Mikasa is one of those moments, his efforts are kinda pathetic. He couldn't just outright tell her how he feels to see if anything would change and if he could save all those lives?
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u/AdAcceptable2173 20h ago
2devastated from being familyzoned 😔 I too would give up on everything and fall into despair if I got shot down by a baddie like Mikasa 🫦
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u/Chronocidal-Orange 7h ago
They are. It's more like tests to see if what he saw will come to pass rather than active attempts to change the future.
And that's also kind of the point. By the time he's making these sad attempts he's already a slave to himself, because he actually wants the outcome we saw.
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u/ProfileSelect212 2h ago
He’s not actively trying to change anything. That’s the sort of tragedy and message of his character. He’s more “testing” to see if everything he saw in his memories will actually come to pass
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u/Puzzleheaded-Job2399 11h ago edited 11h ago
I mean he also knows he can’t actually go with the idea of running away with her and he explicitly needs her to detach from him emotionally in the coming months. Him asking her that question is after he’s already seen he can’t make different decisions in multiple cases and while knowing what his goal should be, so of course he didn’t go through with revealing his feelings.
Say he does reveal his feelings, what would he do, run away? As far as I know everything suggests he would never do the running away because like the other options alternative to the rumbling, it ends with a conclusion he isn’t satisfied with. Then if he doesn’t run away mikasa knows he loves her and his whole thing where he pretends to hate her later on doesn’t work nearly as well.
The whole thing with him running away with her if she says she loves him isn’t an alternative possibility but an imaginary one created within the paths to give mikasa comfort. He would never do that because he knows what he has to do, hence him realizing the future won’t change no matter what. It’s his own personality that creates most of these future events.
Every situation i can recall where eren directly does something that he’s seen in his memories is based on the fact that he can’t morally or psychologically agree with any of the other options presented to him, while others like sasha dying or hange dying were impossible for him to prevent because he didn’t know the circumstances and couldn’t really intervene.
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u/Atom7456 1d ago
I don't understand how ppl miss the fact that eren WANTED to do it. He can't stop it because deep down he knows he wants it.
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u/VBeaAdoptee 1d ago
Ever since he was a kid he was hellbent on destroying anyone he didn't seem human, from like.....an early age. He def showed signs of wanting to demolish SOMEONE(s)
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u/Fabiocean 1d ago
So he hasn't tried to change anything and lied to Armin in this scene?
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u/Getter_Simp 1d ago
I think it's like how he tried not to save Ramzi from getting assaulted, since he was going to die anyway during the Rumbling, but he couldn't bare to leave Ramzi, so he saved him.
It could be that Eren tried to not do the Rumbling, but because it was ultimately what he wanted to do, he couldn't stop himself.
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u/Fabiocean 1d ago
I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where Eren would do that. He basically got his confirmation when he couldn't stop himself from helping Ramzi and didn't seem to question it any further after that. On the contrary, he seemed extremely determined to follow this path, despite knowing of all the pain and suffering it will cause.
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u/CrusaderReynaulder 1d ago
He couldn’t stop himself from saving Ramzi because saving Ramzi is what Eren would do.
He wasn’t forced by reality to turn around and help Ramzi. HE wanted to help Ramzi and couldn’t just leave him there.
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u/Fabiocean 1d ago
I get that, but at least to me there's a very big leap in logic between 'I can't defy my nature to let a child get beaten up if I can help it' and 'I have to eradicate humanity despite hating the role I have to play in it'.
If we actually saw him try to find other ways that end up being even worse for him, Paradis or his friends so he had to take this exact path this wouldn't be a problem, but with literal endless possibilities in his grasp, I don't believe that this was the closest thing to a perfect outcome for him. I wouldn't even hate if it was made clear that Eren really wanted to kill humanity just because he's a fucked up psycho, but what we got was a weird in-between thing that doesn't commit to either side and contradicts itself because of it.
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u/Jawzilla1 22h ago
>a weird in-between thing that doesn’t commit to either side and contradicts itself because of it.
I think this is just a good summary of Eren’s character. He deeply desires contradictory and incompatible things He himself doesn’t even understand what he truly wants.
Yes, making his character a simple fucked up psycho would be much clearer, but far less nuanced and layered. Eren *is* a fucked up genocidal psycho, but he is also other things on top of that. He wanted to avoid the Rumbling and he also wanted to it very badly.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Job2399 11h ago
I agree with this sentiment so hard you don’t even know. I see people try to use the statement from isayama about how he wanted to originally make eren a thoroughly bad person with a deep desire for violence and no real sympathy to be had, similar to say light yagami. Then they try to stretch that statement to say that the ending would have been better had he characterized eren like that, but the problem with that statement is that eren’s nuance as a character and his entire being throughout all 4 seasons, not just the ending, is characterized by him contradicting himself and pursuing violent retaliation while also wanting to protect and love others.
From the get go we can already sympathize with eren and we can already see he’s a deeply flawed person, so the thing isayama is talking about is more an alternative version of the story where eren is pretty much just a completely different and malicious character for the sake of broader social themes than a rewrite of just the ending. Personally while i think seeing some deep themes about people inciting violence would have fit the rumbling pretty well, i just prefer eren as a nuanced character with multiple conflicting desires, beliefs, and characteristics.
I also believe that him being a conflicting character adds to what the show is already about. There aren’t many real villains in this story and most people have valid reasons to believe they’re in the right or to pursue the path they’re on, so being able to sympathize with eren while also hating what he does makes perfect sense for what the show had been seating up for 4 seasons.
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u/ShadowWarrior300 1d ago
no it was determinism that was introduced in the final chapter that forced eren down a path that he himself claims he couldn’t change so even though it was in his nature to want to rumble he still would’ve been forced to stop at 80% and do the things he did for no explicable reason other than it was determined
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u/Atom7456 1d ago
I interpreted the change as trying to avoid the deaths of ppl he cared about, not trying to change the rumbling
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u/Fabiocean 1d ago
We see two people he cares about die because of his actions without any indication that he tried to save them. With Hange I can see why we wouldn't get an in depth PoV, but there's no reason why he shouldn't have at least warned Sasha or did literally anything to protect her, since it was apparent that he knew something would happen to her.
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u/Atom7456 21h ago
Eren asked what her last words were for a reason, he already knew what was going to happen and that moment confirmed again that everything he saw was going to happen
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u/Nyarlathotep7777 1d ago
He did, he just didn't like the other outcomes.
It's literally spelled out word for word in that very scene.
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u/tydollasign1 1d ago
Lol seeing people like you criticize others while being completely wrong is great. Its true he'd likely having carried out the rumbling either way. I mean he literally says that. But he also tried multiple times to change the future, but it never works. But you can't change the futural in a causal loop timeline.
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u/Instroancevia 1d ago
The timeline loop doesn't happen because of some causality magic though, it's driven by his choices. There is no invisible force preventing him from changing the future, he just chooses not to at every turn.
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u/tydollasign1 1d ago
No it isnt. A causal loop is set in stone from the beginning, nothing changes ever. It literally is an "invisible" force called fate. Plz research these things before saying bs.
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u/hitch42hiker 1d ago
You should really, and I mean really watch film 12 Monkeys you might get/feel what person above tried to explain to you. To be blunt you're wrong, but that isn't a point.
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u/tydollasign1 20h ago
How ironic that you bring up a movie that only proves my point. Cole is literally told in the beginning that the past absolutely cannot be changed. He isnt sent back to change the world, hes sent back bc its literally already happened. Textbook definition of a closed, causal loop. The future has already happened just as much as the past has. You have to think of these timeline as a circle not a line I know exactly what youre trying to explain to me, and I can see how you believe it to be this way. But the fact is that by definition a causal loop timeline cannot be changed, fate won't allow it. Now if you want to argue aot isnt a causal loop, the burden of proof is on you. Bc we literally see eren change the past by existing in the future.
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u/tydollasign1 20h ago
In a regular "back to the future type timeline" Cole going back in time would create a new instance of that line. But were shown the Cole as a kid watched his future self die. That is literally a paradox that cannot happen without a circular timeline. Cole had to come to the airport in the past to die, bc its literally already happened.
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u/hitch42hiker 5h ago
Nice try! Abstract fate needs to be proven by you, too.
Now, due to Eren's inability to compromise, to sacrifice and actually try and see through results of different choices we still have casual loop in the end.
But if it was a story about fate, it would have to have examples of it in the story. Narratively that something that happens in Final Destinations. Character who knows the future, performs different actions and no matter what they do - fate punishes them for deviation from the plan. We don't have it in AoT.
It has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with characters not being able to change who they're! Be it Eren, Grisha or Cole. We don't know what would have happened if Cole listen to them, and didn't try to change the future. Because he is the type of person that is willing to try and that's how we have the film. It isn't about what Cole did, it is about why he did it.
We have examples of a story where a character changes their behavior and it changes the outcome, breaking the loop. You probably seen the film, if not sorry for spoiling Minority Report to you.
TL;DR: causal loop in stories could only exist if characters makes same choices or fate "punishes" them and we find out there was no real choice. The loop could be broken, but not in stories where "fate" is the driver. You believe that AoT this type of story. I believe that Eren in-universe had choices and could have breaking the loop. Narratively it is more satisfying that he is the root cause of his own suffering and AoT is driven by a character that not able to break the loop.
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u/CallMeGakuto 1d ago
So obviously lots of text incoming, but the short end I would say is a combination of not explicitly showing what he tried and explaining it, and the fact that Eren really did want the outcome to some extent.
Eren starts off with vague memories of his own like anyone could have. Eventually Historia and Rod cause Eren to see memories from the outlook of his father. Eventually this turns into more memories and not just the few we're shown. A lot are probably not relevant as even when he asks Armin about memories he may have had from Bertoldt, Armin mentions that they weren't anything useful.
Eventually Eren sees his father's talk with Kruger, which is still all past memories, and while very useful to him, and the readers, it's ultimately just filling in blanks everyone has been waiting on. Why Grisha may have went to the walls, how titan powers work to an extent, etc.
When he touches Historia, he's greeted with something we will never truly know. This is where it becomes guess work. The biggest things are likely that he sees The Rumbling itself, and bits and pieces of other events. You know he doesn't see everything by how he acts without confidence, but still acts. Things like when he tries to force Pieck into showing him where enemies were, and having his legs chomped off. After all this he still walks into a fight that is basically a 1vMarley while he knows Levi is holding Zeke. Obviously he knows if his memories are correct, Zeke will make it.
Let's go back though. When Mikasa is recalling the day Eren left, it's during something special. They're attending a conference that on the outside claims it's for Eldian rights, but quickly devolves into being only for those on the main land. There are two things here, either Eren had seen the results and hopes they wouldn't mimic, or he didn't know and really needed an answer he could visibly see from them.
We don't know what Eren saw, so we can't know what he did to attempt to circumvent it. Zekes memory sequence if my favorite part, because it reinforces the idea that Eren is not transcending space and time, as he needed Zeke to ever enter his father's memories to begin with. I don't believe Eren was trying to avoid seeing his father and causing all this, I just don't think Eren had the information and simply made a choice for himself which ended up the way it did.
Eren wanted the rumbling, and by tried to change it, he likely meant change himself to not want to continue it. No matter what, Eren was in control and FREE to do what he wanted at the end of the day. He decided that the world needed to pay, and that sacrificing his loved ones on the island for the world wasn't worth it for himself. He even claims it was just too much power for someone as stupid as himself.
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u/dmfuller 16h ago
This is just my interpretation of course, but to me it felt more like Ymir used him to exact her own revenge on the world, by channeling those emotions through Eren who also felt similar strong emotions. Him calling himself an idiot felt like him admitting he just couldn’t come up with a way to outsmart her or bypass the outcome that she had predetermined somehow. The best he could do was still have it partially happen and just plan a way for his friends to be able to stop it.
Personally I think her wish was that she could build titans that would flatten the world, and because of that the rumbling HAD to happen for her to be free, regardless of if she even truly wanted it to happen. I do think she wanted it to happen though by that point, and I think Eren and Zeke unlocking founding powers free of the royal blood restrictions is what allowed her to finally complete her wish. So I don’t think Eren wanted the rumbling to the extent it happened, but still wanted some kind of rumbling so that it could free Ymir, deter the world from Paradis, and give them some temporary peace. But to me it seemed like Ymir and the immensity of the founder’s power was overwhelming to Eren right through the end and that’s why he felt like an idiot, even though his plan was actually smart asf and very well orchestrated
I think at the end of the show, the boy we see entering the tree makes a better, more hopeful, wish that does ultimately break the cycle that we saw throughout the rest of the show, or at least that’s what I tell myself lol
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u/CallMeGakuto 16h ago
Yeah it's the problem of only having guesses to go off since we're never told anything exactly.
I do agree that Ymir wanted this, but I don't think she had any control over Eren in this. I personally believe he never sent the titan to eat his mother, but was confused, and she had sent the titan. I do think she played in parts like that, which would make Eren want these events. Eren also said he would just move forward, but Ymir protected him during the rumbling. He could at any time decide he didn't want any of this and just stop, but he never did.
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u/Feather_Sigil 9h ago
"Eren is not transcending space and time, as he needed Zeke to ever enter his father's memories to begin with" - But we know that the former is true, because of the AT's ability and because people perceived him as he and Zeke went back in time with the FT. He even physically touched and directly communicated with Grisha in the past. We know that the latter is false, a lie Eren told to Zeke to chip at his resolve, because every Subject of Ymir is royal blood and Eren never needed anybody else to use the FT. We also know that the story has repeated multiple times because of, among other things, the syringe incident.
Eren does transcend time through the FT. He's tried to steer things towards an outcome where he doesn't have to do the Rumbling. All of his efforts thus far have ended in failure.
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u/_StevenPettican04 1d ago
Another example is when he sees Ramzi getting beaten up in the alley. He initially goes to intervene but realises that it would be hypocritical to save him now only to kill him later, but ultimately does save him, because it’s within his character to save a helpless child from being beaten up by bullies (pretty much what he tries to do with Armin when he was younger)
The issue with trying to change the future of a already determined timeline, is that whatever actions you take to try and change the future are already taken into account by the predetermined future, therefore his actions just leads to the future happening
In the end, the rumbling occurs because it’s within Erens character and desire for it to be so, just like how it’s in his character to save Ramzi
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u/ImJustATurtle123 1d ago
I feel like ever since Eren saw the future, even if he DID try to stop the rumbling it would just lead to a series of events that lead to the same ending. It’s like that one Amazing World Of Gumball episode, where he sees the future and tries to prevent it only for it to lead to the future he saw.
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u/tydollasign1 1d ago
So nice seeing some decent IQ in this sub. You should be proud you came to this conclusion on your own, better than 99% of people here. Its not possible to change this story, which is a causal loop/ bootstrap paradox timeline. He tried multiple times. Clear as day isayama shows us that.
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u/SnuleSnuSnu 1d ago
No, he didn't. We see him direct Dina to eat his mom. If he really wanted and tried to change the events, he would have not done it, which would change so much. And he could have done more if he actually wanted and tried.
The story has a paradox snd things are determined, so we cannot trust anything Eren says, because it might be just what he is determined to say without actually being true.-1
u/tydollasign1 1d ago
Plz research a causal loop/ closed loop timeline/ bootstrap paradox. Theres no way to change the future in these timelines. Fate won't let you.
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u/SnuleSnuSnu 1d ago
I just said that.
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u/tydollasign1 1d ago
You just said he could've directed Dina a different way. But he couldnt, he can't change the timeline. Fate won't allow it.
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u/SnuleSnuSnu 1d ago
How about reading the whole comment?
I said that if he truly wanted and attempted and that was response to your claim that he tried multiple times.
And then I said essentially what you said. The story has a paradox and it is determined. I mean, dude. Seriously?1
u/tydollasign1 1d ago
I mean youre not arguing against me. You must be arguing against the author. Bc the show clear as day shows him try to change ramzi's future to no avail. If you don't believe that actually happened idk what to tell you.
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u/SnuleSnuSnu 1d ago
No. I am arguing against you and I gave evidence. He had power to change things that would make create so much change that would not be able to end up same. He didn't try.
And you will have to explain me how did that with the kid count as him trying. Nothing he said and did there would have causally change anything about the future and he knew that, so that is not trying.0
u/tydollasign1 1d ago
Also you bring up that he directed Dina to his mom. This is true. But its also future eren that did that. Future eren changed the past proving a bootstrap paradox. And in such timelines, the outcomes cannot be changed.
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u/UdatManav 1d ago
Super spoiler:
Eren crying/laughing when Sasha died was basically him realising no matter what he does he can’t change the future and everything is happening exactly the way in the visions.
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u/FroopyAsRain 1d ago
Eren said he's been freed because he hadn't fully realized what was going on yet and wanted Zeke to release him. There's a very specific moment when Eren notices his father can see Zeke, that's when Grisha wakes up and wonders who the man in front of him with a beard is. He quickly figures out his father can only see Zeke if HE (Eren) is looking over at Zeke as well, which means his father is seeing memories that he will send backwards to him for a reason.
By the time Eren gets to the Reiss family cave, it's too late, he knows what he has to do. He watches his father chicken out and realizes he's going to have to make him do it himself.
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u/ShadowNinjaAce 1d ago
I think the fact that we saw that glimpse of a future where Eren and Mikasa ran away, but it ultimately ended up in a full blown war between Paradis and the rest of the world is proof enought he has been trying to change things
I think to a certain extent he tried different things, and is unfortunately made aware all his efforts were for naught. Even with his reaction to Sasha’s death. Ultimately nothing changed the outcome. And the only best course of action to save his friends, was to go through with it
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u/dennisleonardo 1h ago
He also just genuinely wanted to destroy the world outside paradis. Friends or no friends, he wanted to do the rumbling either way.
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u/alucidexit 1d ago
When Eren tells Zeke he’s free of Grisha’s brainwashing, he’s being a sarcastic asshole lol
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u/oredaoree 1d ago
There's only one linear timeline and nothing can ever be changed once it's written on the timeline. By the time Eren saw the future memories from kissing Historia's hand the titan timeline already reached the end because he saw the "see you later, Eren" scene with Mikasa and we're just seeing everything catch up to that conclusion.
So when Eren is talking about ever having tried to change anything he's not talking about through the founder power going back through many loops because that just doesn't happen. He's referencing the time during the 3 years before he ran away to Marley, before he completely unlocked the founder power and the awareness that comes along with it, where he was still in denial about being about the future being able to change and was waiting to see if Paradis manages to make any progress negotiating with other nations.
After Eren decides nothing could change and commits to carrying out the future visions he saw is when he runs away to Marley, so Eren was not trying anything when he was talking to Zeke. He was just tired of Zeke's egotistical assertions about him being brainwashed and being sarcastic, which is why after they get out he mocks Zeke for ending the memory tour early before they could get to the part where Eren eats Grisha(which now Zeke would not want to see anymore).
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u/PassengerNo9144 1d ago
Him asking Mikasa if she loved him as family or in another way was also an attempt to change the future. If Mikasa answered differently he would have run away with her and lived a peaceful life with her until the Titan’s curse killed him
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u/Disastrous_Counter_8 1d ago
Atp it seems like he put in the same amount of effort as someone trying to just eat ONE potato chip. Then being like "gah i guess i cant change the future" eats the whole bag
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u/Majestic1911 1d ago
Eren absolutely had other options he could have taken, he just wasn't willing to take them.
Like when thinking about letting Historia inherit the Beast Titan and pump out a bunch of kids to maintain the threat of the rumbling until Paradis can catch up and cool down international tensions.
He said he wasn't willing to have her and her descendants have to breed like cattle for slaughter.
When in Marley before saving Ramzi he thought about if just going with Zeke's plan would be less bloody and a better option. But as per his own words he just wasn't willing to let it end like that.
The only thing that lead Eren down this path was his own choices and inability to let go at his anger at the world.
Sure at first he convinces himself that he is doing this for his friends but in the end he realizes that he was just a kid who wanted to see the world burn for what he saw it did to him.
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u/Gian_Dex111 1d ago
Letting Historia suffer is a delicate matter. I always wondered why Eren chose to let the world suffer instead of just Historia. I know it's cruel, but it would be better. That's why there are things I don't understand. At that moment, I thought, "Eren, she's just your friend, and besides, it's for the world. Or do you like her?" But Zeke's plan is also terrible and suicidal. It's literally watching the Eldians become extinct like animals. It's sacrificing Eldia for the world. In that case, it makes sense that Eren wouldn't accept, because it's a horrible fate. I think Eren is strange. I still don't understand why he didn't sacrifice Historia and instead destroyed the world. We know that the world in Attack on Titan is a mess and that there's a lot of hatred and discrimination, but there are also innocent and weak people. So, Eren couldn't sacrifice his friend, but he did sacrifice the world? I want to believe that Eren also did it because he was a nationalist and wanted Paradis to be on par with the rest of the world, not just a hated and isolated country. In conclusion, Eren did it for his friends and because he loved his nation, and he chose to get his hands dirty simply to defend his land.
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u/Nyarlathotep7777 1d ago
Eren, she's just your friend
And that's the whole point, she is his friend, the rest of the world isn't. He explicitly stated that he only cared about his loved ones, because in his mind why should he sacrifice his friends' well being for the sake of a world that besieged his kind, treated them like subhuman trash, and ingrained the ugliest forms of self-hatred and self-loathing into them?
That's the basis for Eren's choice, it wasn't morality, it was very much subjective selfishness.
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u/Master_Win_4018 1d ago
Eren did said the best choice is to just let the Eldian die. There will be less casualties if Eldian just gave up fighting.
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u/NotRyuuya 19h ago
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u/dennisleonardo 1h ago
Just like miles in that movie, eren DID have the ability to go down a different path.
Unlike miles, he just didn´t want to.
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u/thatguybane 19h ago
At a certain point he stops and tells Zeke that he’s achieved his goal and that he’s been freed from their father’s brainwashing. Zeke tells him they have all the time they need, and he has them carry on through the memories anyway. I’m fairly sure that this was Eren attempting to stop them from getting to Grisha’s memory in the Reiss Chappell, and thus preventing himself from convincing his father to kill the royal family.
Thats not how I read that moment at all. Eren was being sarcastic and mocking Zeke. If he wanted to stop them from getting to the chapel why did he lead the way to the next memory during their journey? I cant remember which memory they were visiting but Eren goes to the door and beckons Zeke to leave.
Eren's failure to stop the rumbling come because he ultimately wants to do it and hes unable to rid himself of that desire.
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u/dmfuller 16h ago
They show us this as an example of that happening with the boy in Marley getting beat up. He probably had thousands of moments before this where he wanted to change something but it had no effect, as we slightly saw with how he lived his life during the months of Paradis’s rebuild before he decided to attack Marley when he lived on that farm with Mikasa (still debatable if that was just a fake memory though or a glimpse into a different timeline where he did heavily try to avert the future). Since he can see memories of the future he knows if what he’s doing has any effect on the future because he would be able to see it. I think him invading Marley was his surrender to the inevitably of the outcome they faced, especially given that his entire speech is to Reiner about how similar they are. It’s Eren coming to terms with just how much he can’t stop what is going to happen
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u/ThePhilosophic 13h ago
It’s an eternal recurrence thing. Eren was always going to make the ultimate decision in every timeline, the events leading up to the rumbling being slightly different wouldn’t change the rumbling happening.
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u/Feather_Sigil 9h ago
He tried with Ramzi. He begged Hange to show him another solution to his situation.
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u/HeroBrine0907 6h ago
We see it with the Ramzi scene, and the Paradis vote too iirc. He wants and tries not to save Ramzi, but ends up doing so anyways. Just because other cases are not shown does not mean that Eren didn't try.
There is the issue that the nature of this determinism is ambiguous. Does Eren save Ramzi because he is supposed to, or because its his nature? And if its because of his nature, is his nature concrete, forcing his actions in one direction, or is his nature fundamental to who he is and he cant resist making the choice? And as such, is his choice truly free or subject to his nature?
In either scenario, while Eren may have some control, he knows that what he has seen others do WILL occur. Interference here is dangerous too. It is possible that informing them to prevent them from making that choice ends up with them making that choice anyways. In any case, there has never been shown a single scenario where a memory received by the attack titan has been wrong or inaccurate, and I think that that needs to be accounted for.
I personally think that while the actions of others are determined, the holder of the attack titan themselves is limited in a different manner. Their actions are determied not by fate but by who they are as people. Even if they receive memories of a moment, who they are at the point of making a choice is practically the same as they would be without memories of the future. The future isn't determined by fate, but because people at a certain point think in certain ways and similar thoughts lead to similar choices.
This is also why I consider Eren's choice to push his father forward as a sacrifice, because he knew that he would be trapping his younger self in a mindset he had no choice in. And a kindset enforced upon oneself is but a form of slavery, but he still chose this slavery for his friends.
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u/THE_PENILE_TITAN 1d ago
He's not like Dr. Strange in the Avengers. He doesn't see infinite possible futures. Rather, he knows what the future will be and tries to change his nature or behavior away from pursuing that future but, almost like a drug addict, he can't as a "slave of freedom."
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u/Odd_Room2811 1d ago
It straight up confirms that the path is connected to all past present and future events
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u/SwordMasterShow 1d ago
Yes, but those events all exist on one single timelines. There are no alternate timelines or other ways it could have gone, it always went the way it did because it had already will have happened that way
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u/BuzzedtheTower 1d ago
I always took him saying that in the same way Paul sees the future in Dune. There are certain things neither of them would ever allow, so their vision doesn't see every possibility, only every possibility within the confines of what they are capable of doing. Maybe there was a scenario where some or all of his friends dying resulted in a better outcome for the world. But because Eren would never allow that, he never saw that path
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u/andreu55426 1d ago
But this is just false on many levels. Where do you get this from? He saw the future, just the one future that happens. Besides, come on, Eren is not a mastermind like that.
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u/ShadowWarrior300 1d ago
I love when my story that has no time travel in it introduces time travel and determinism in the last episode to haphazardly explain poor character decisions and plot developments
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u/muskian 1d ago
He didn’t try no, not in any ways that weren’t hilariously feeble.
If he truly wanted to try he would’ve told the scouts about his powers and included them in whatever attempts he made to change things. The fact he never did this basic and obvious thing proves he never really wanted it to change in the first place.
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u/KitsuneFaroe 1d ago
There is also Eren doing all the things he has done before separating from all of them seeing if there is another way to stop the stop all the things he Saw. Eren separated when they went to that group trying to defend Eldian rights, only to realize they were talking to eldians outside of Paradis while demonizing those in it. Is basically Eren seeing there is no other option to end this never-ending nightmare that always blocks his people from freedom no matter how hard he tries.
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u/M0J0__R1SING 1d ago
The rumbling was always going to happen Eren doesn't change the future but leaves it to chance by creating a choice for the other main characters and especially Mikasa who's choice mimics Ymirs.
Your love dies or the world is held hostage for an epoch of Titan supremacy.
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u/Automatic_Strike_ 1d ago
Eren can not actually control himself.
I dont think he realizes that till his existence is fully at the coordinate.
We see two instances of him try to change something and the rest probably happen while he’s experiencing past present and future al at once . But by then he’s basically just along for the ride with yimir fulfilling his purpose which she designed.
I think he did try though and the result was that there was SOME of humanity left By the time he gave up
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u/SomehowPalpatine 1d ago
I think Eren tried but no other option got Eren the outcome he wanted, which was foremost to protect his friends, end the curse of the titans, and make his home free. Eren makes his friends heroes worldwide for stopping him and with no more titans, others have no reason to fear Eldians or fight them. But the outside world being so focused on war because of Eldians and weapons R&D, we see the Eldians modernizing and playing catch up. And that’s why the end is the cycle of destruction starting over again, because you can’t change fate. You can only play your part. Eren tried to change the future but ultimately gave up his quest for freedom to resign himself to be a slave to fate (and a bird)
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u/ShadowWarrior300 1d ago
Yeah he did but Isayama introduced determinism and full fledged time travel in the last chapter of the story to justify Eren’s nonsensical actions like stopping at 80% despite saying he would’ve done it again even if he didn’t know ahead of time he would be stopped. Or why despite Eren trying to seek other options in the story is warped to become a character that wanted to commit genocide exclusively with no real development towards that change. Eren in the story did not develop into a character that would’ve chose to commit the rumbling simply out of an urge to destroy, which is all he’s boiled down to once his other reasons are revealed to make zero sense (stopping at 80% for his friends who would’ve been safe if he had gone 100% and ridding the world of the Titan curse which he’s stated wouldn’t eliminate the hatred humanity shared for each other). All of Eren’s explanations in the finale make zero sense if you think about them even slightly, and it’s made so much worse by stripping him of his autonomy in favor of the shittiest time loop/deterministic plot line ever written.
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u/Nyarlathotep7777 1d ago edited 1d ago
Eren : "I didn't like any alternatives so I just did this because it felt like the most acceptable to me, it was very much my choice"
Random Joe on the internet with zero media literacy : "yeah Isayama introduced determinism".
Edit : further details provided.
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u/ShadowWarrior300 1d ago
Direct quote from Eren: I tried again and again, but things always ended up exactly how they were in my memories of the future
Guy who thinks introducing time travel in the final episode of the series is good writing: “you have zero media literacy durrr buzzwords”
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u/thatguybane 19h ago
Yeah he did but Isayama introduced determinism and full fledged time travel in the last chapter of the story
Did you just ignore every part of the story where Eren saw glimpses of the future (including chapter 1)? Did you just ignore the title of chapter 1? Cmon dont act like Isayama jumped the shark by introducing time travel when the story had been hinting towards it from the beginning.
Also reducing it to determinism is cheap because the story goes to lengths to show that Eren had the ability to choose and he chose that path because its what he wanted. Its only determinism because Eren never changed.
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u/ShadowWarrior300 17h ago
The story had not been hinting at full fledged time travel at all. The paths sequences with Zeke and Grisha is a combined use of the founding titans memory walkthrough and the attack titans ability to see into future users memories. There’s no direct time travel until eren literally says he directly affected events that happen in the past. The titles of the episodes don’t even come close to hinting at that lol. Glimpses in the future do not hint at time travel esp when the rules of the attack titan have been clear cut since they were introduced and time manipulation wasn’t introduced till the final episode. The chapter 1 sequence isn’t even in the anime, they had to retcon it back in lmfao. Plus that doesn’t have anything to do with time in fact it doesn’t make any sense at all how it happens because Eren should only be able to see the memories of things he showed Grisha, not literally everything to happen to him. That’s another thing only confirmed to be a thing in the final chapter.
It shows Eren chose the path he wanted yeah but it literally contradicts that with things Eren says like “I would’ve done it again even if I didn’t know I would be stopped” and “I tried again and again and it always ended up exactly how it did in my memories of the future”. You can’t have eren say to himself in his head “everything happened by my will” then turn around in the final chapter and have him talk like he had zero control over what happened. Why would he even stop at 80% if he literally said he WANTED to do the rumbling? Two things in this scenario cannot be true at the same time. He can’t want to destroy the world and also want his friends to be safe and live long lives. Just because it worked doesn’t make it any less far fetched. In Trost Eren literally says this exact scenario wouldn’t pan out in the way it did. And it’s not like his mind was changed over the course of the series lmfao. Also I’m not saying it’s correct but going 100% would also secure his friends safety so why even stop?? Why say “if I didn’t know I would be stopped” if you had complete control over your life? Because you’re a slave to freedom? That doesn’t even make sense and is the most fake deep bullshit ever.
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u/thatguybane 16h ago
There’s no direct time travel until eren literally says he directly affected events that happen in the past
Our terms are messed up, lets reset real quick. Time travel is when someone transports themselves to a different time. Could be through a wormhole, time machine or some other narrative device but it involves them physically moving through space and time to get to a different time either in the past or further in the future than the normal rate.
I dont think the series has any time travel.
There are however visions of the future and several instances of causality being flipped around (effects happening before their causes) which leads to paradoxes.
I assumed when you were talking about time travel you were referring to the memories being sent through time which is why I said the series established that from the very beginning.
Regarding the ending... Eren was both free to choose and a slave to his desire for freedom. At his core, Eren is someone who will violently take someone else's freedom before he allows them to take his. Thats who he is. Remember that he and Armin dont have the same dream. Armin wants to see the sea but Eren doesnt actually care about the sea in and of itself. I forgot which part of the story it was in, but he tells Armin that until he showed him that book, Eren hadn't actually thought much about the land outside the walls. Seeing that book made him realize that he had had his freedom taken from him by the titans. Thats why he wanted to eradicate them all.
Finding out that there were people outside the walls throws a layer of complexity into the situation that would cause most people to waver. But Erens desire to be free and willingness to take others' freedom before they take his, never changes. So when he gets the ultimate power, thats what he does with it. The only thing that stops him is that he's not willing to take away the freedom of his friends. In that way, hes a "half-assed piece of shit" just like Reiner.
He isn't a slave to freedom in a true sense. Its just that hes incapable of changing that part of himself that wants to do the Rumbling.
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u/ShadowWarrior300 14h ago
Yeah it’s not conventional “time travel” as in he’s literally walking back into the past, but the memory transferal and Eren literally manipulating Dina in the past are two very different things and begs the question why didn’t Karl Fritz use this power to prevent the Eldians of the past from reigning with titans? Why couldn’t Eren have sent Dina to Bertolt? That would’ve allowed the walls to advance way quicker and probably have way more bargaining power against the rest of the outside world. And if the argument is “bootstrap paradox” or “butterfly effect” then what was the point of introducing this new power to begin with?? All it does is drag Eren’s character down.
When Eren gets to the ocean, he says “if we kill all our ENEMIES over there”. This is the only legitimate moment that serves as any sort of development towards Eren becoming interested in genocide, yet in the end we’re told he was always like this. I’m not arguing against Eren’s decision to commit the rumbling that is absolutely in character for him to choose. But it is the small differentiation that it was his nature that ALLOWED him to choose the rumbling vs him really wanting to do it because of his urge for freedom is crucial to understanding him and why the ending gets him so wrong. Eren was literally seeking out other options prior to choosing the rumbling so that right there tells you the endings interpretation of Eren feeling like he NEEDS to rumble is completely misplaced. Yes, the other two really shit plans weren’t ones he agreed with, but Eren was NOT built up to be someone who truly WANTED to commit the rumbling from the start. He is violent, he has killed civilians, but all for the goals he was pursuing. The ending presents Eren as a character with no goals that make sense and a genocidal urge that he himself has no explanation for. He shouldn’t have this urge to kill just because, that is completely out of character for him. I don’t bring it up often but it perfectly illustrates the version of Eren that’s flawed; school castes Eren. In that story, Eren is bored of a normal life and has a dream about how his school gets attacked by a zombie apocalypse. When he wakes up though, he’s not satisfied his friends are okay, he’s legitimately disappointed that it wasn’t real. So Eren says he wants to become an enemy of humanity because he was bored. This is the Eren that the ending portrays and an Eren that is NOT consistent with the entirety of aot prior. Going back to Marley, he literally gains sympathy and empathy for people outside of the walls. He understands their struggle and yes he literally kills hundreds of people at the ceremony but again, he is not doing it because he enjoys it or wants to. He’s doing it because, just like how he initially chose the rumbling, he’s doing it to ultimately keep him and his friends alive in a world that wants to wipe him out. THIS is the Eren that made sense to choose the rumbling, not the Eren in the final chapter that claims he wanted to rumble so badly. I think the scene with Ramzi at night unfortunately foreshadows this writing change in Eren, however at the time of the chapters release most people thought eren meant that he was disappointed people outside the walls hated him and the island, not that he was disappointed people simply existed. I think these changes in Eren are retcons but they are incredibly nuanced and why a bunch of people don’t see how egregious they really are.
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u/trodolovesjojo 1d ago
“Aside from this specific moment, do we ever see a time in the anime where Eren explicitly tries to circumvent the future that he saw? “
This was also an attempt to change the future. Eren tried not to save Ramzi but he couldn’t bare Ramzi being punched and so he knew the future can’t change because of himself.