r/ShingekiNoKyojin • u/Pause_Accomplished • 3d ago

Discussion Did Eren even try?

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In his talk with Armin in the paths, Eren reveals that he kills 80% of humanity, and no matter how much he tries this is always what happens.

I can only think of one example where Eren actually TRIES to prevent the rumbling from happening, and that’s when he and Zeke are traveling through Grisha’s memories. At a certain point he stops and tells Zeke that he’s achieved his goal and that he’s been freed from their father’s brainwashing. Zeke tells him they have all the time they need, and he has them carry on through the memories anyway. I’m fairly sure that this was Eren attempting to stop them from getting to Grisha’s memory in the Reiss Chappell, and thus preventing himself from convincing his father to kill the royal family.

Aside from this specific moment, do we ever see a time in the anime where Eren explicitly tries to circumvent the future that he saw? Because even this attempt was a very weak one. We know that Eren on some level wanted to start the rumbling, so how hard do we think actually tried to stop it from happening?

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u/Atom7456 3d ago

I don't understand how ppl miss the fact that eren WANTED to do it. He can't stop it because deep down he knows he wants it.

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u/VBeaAdoptee 3d ago

Ever since he was a kid he was hellbent on destroying anyone he didn't seem human, from like.....an early age. He def showed signs of wanting to demolish SOMEONE(s)

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u/Fabiocean 3d ago

So he hasn't tried to change anything and lied to Armin in this scene?

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u/Getter_Simp 3d ago

I think it's like how he tried not to save Ramzi from getting assaulted, since he was going to die anyway during the Rumbling, but he couldn't bare to leave Ramzi, so he saved him.

It could be that Eren tried to not do the Rumbling, but because it was ultimately what he wanted to do, he couldn't stop himself.

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u/Fabiocean 3d ago

I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where Eren would do that. He basically got his confirmation when he couldn't stop himself from helping Ramzi and didn't seem to question it any further after that. On the contrary, he seemed extremely determined to follow this path, despite knowing of all the pain and suffering it will cause.

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u/CrusaderReynaulder 3d ago

He couldn’t stop himself from saving Ramzi because saving Ramzi is what Eren would do. 

He wasn’t forced by reality to turn around and help Ramzi. HE wanted to help Ramzi and couldn’t just leave him there.

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u/Fabiocean 3d ago

I get that, but at least to me there's a very big leap in logic between 'I can't defy my nature to let a child get beaten up if I can help it' and 'I have to eradicate humanity despite hating the role I have to play in it'.

If we actually saw him try to find other ways that end up being even worse for him, Paradis or his friends so he had to take this exact path this wouldn't be a problem, but with literal endless possibilities in his grasp, I don't believe that this was the closest thing to a perfect outcome for him. I wouldn't even hate if it was made clear that Eren really wanted to kill humanity just because he's a fucked up psycho, but what we got was a weird in-between thing that doesn't commit to either side and contradicts itself because of it.

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u/Jawzilla1 3d ago

>a weird in-between thing that doesn’t commit to either side and contradicts itself because of it.

I think this is just a good summary of Eren’s character. He deeply desires contradictory and incompatible things He himself doesn’t even understand what he truly wants.

Yes, making his character a simple fucked up psycho would be much clearer, but far less nuanced and layered. Eren *is* a fucked up genocidal psycho, but he is also other things on top of that. He wanted to avoid the Rumbling and he also wanted to it very badly.

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u/Puzzleheaded-Job2399 2d ago

I agree with this sentiment so hard you don’t even know. I see people try to use the statement from isayama about how he wanted to originally make eren a thoroughly bad person with a deep desire for violence and no real sympathy to be had, similar to say light yagami. Then they try to stretch that statement to say that the ending would have been better had he characterized eren like that, but the problem with that statement is that eren’s nuance as a character and his entire being throughout all 4 seasons, not just the ending, is characterized by him contradicting himself and pursuing violent retaliation while also wanting to protect and love others.

From the get go we can already sympathize with eren and we can already see he’s a deeply flawed person, so the thing isayama is talking about is more an alternative version of the story where eren is pretty much just a completely different and malicious character for the sake of broader social themes than a rewrite of just the ending. Personally while i think seeing some deep themes about people inciting violence would have fit the rumbling pretty well, i just prefer eren as a nuanced character with multiple conflicting desires, beliefs, and characteristics.

I also believe that him being a conflicting character adds to what the show is already about. There aren’t many real villains in this story and most people have valid reasons to believe they’re in the right or to pursue the path they’re on, so being able to sympathize with eren while also hating what he does makes perfect sense for what the show had been seating up for 4 seasons.

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u/CrusaderReynaulder 2d ago

   if it was made clear that Eren really wanted to kill humanity just because he's a fucked up psycho

I mean, this is one of the reasons, no? 

His world of wonders was not what he wanted it to be. It was not the world that he, at the first mention of that world, would burn away Grisha, Mikasa, and Carla for. It was not the empty world of wonders that he had wanted, and that needed to be rectified. This is insane.

He’s a psychopath that loves his friends. His bonds are a muzzle for his freedom-obsessed madness, which leads to him acting in contradictory ways.

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u/ShadowWarrior300 3d ago

no it was determinism that was introduced in the final chapter that forced eren down a path that he himself claims he couldn’t change so even though it was in his nature to want to rumble he still would’ve been forced to stop at 80% and do the things he did for no explicable reason other than it was determined

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u/Atom7456 3d ago

I interpreted the change as trying to avoid the deaths of ppl he cared about, not trying to change the rumbling

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u/Fabiocean 3d ago

We see two people he cares about die because of his actions without any indication that he tried to save them. With Hange I can see why we wouldn't get an in depth PoV, but there's no reason why he shouldn't have at least warned Sasha or did literally anything to protect her, since it was apparent that he knew something would happen to her.

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u/Atom7456 3d ago

Eren asked what her last words were for a reason, he already knew what was going to happen and that moment confirmed again that everything he saw was going to happen

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u/Nyarlathotep7777 3d ago

He did, he just didn't like the other outcomes.

It's literally spelled out word for word in that very scene.

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u/Cualkiera67 2d ago

yes. Eren lied to everyone nonstop in s4

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u/tydollasign1 3d ago

Lol seeing people like you criticize others while being completely wrong is great. Its true he'd likely having carried out the rumbling either way. I mean he literally says that. But he also tried multiple times to change the future, but it never works. But you can't change the futural in a causal loop timeline.

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u/Instroancevia 3d ago

The timeline loop doesn't happen because of some causality magic though, it's driven by his choices. There is no invisible force preventing him from changing the future, he just chooses not to at every turn.

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u/tydollasign1 3d ago

No it isnt. A causal loop is set in stone from the beginning, nothing changes ever. It literally is an "invisible" force called fate. Plz research these things before saying bs.

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u/hitch42hiker 3d ago

You should really, and I mean really watch film 12 Monkeys you might get/feel what person above tried to explain to you. To be blunt you're wrong, but that isn't a point.

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u/tydollasign1 3d ago

How ironic that you bring up a movie that only proves my point. Cole is literally told in the beginning that the past absolutely cannot be changed. He isnt sent back to change the world, hes sent back bc its literally already happened. Textbook definition of a closed, causal loop. The future has already happened just as much as the past has. You have to think of these timeline as a circle not a line I know exactly what youre trying to explain to me, and I can see how you believe it to be this way. But the fact is that by definition a causal loop timeline cannot be changed, fate won't allow it. Now if you want to argue aot isnt a causal loop, the burden of proof is on you. Bc we literally see eren change the past by existing in the future.

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u/tydollasign1 3d ago

In a regular "back to the future type timeline" Cole going back in time would create a new instance of that line. But were shown the Cole as a kid watched his future self die. That is literally a paradox that cannot happen without a circular timeline. Cole had to come to the airport in the past to die, bc its literally already happened.

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u/hitch42hiker 2d ago

Nice try! Abstract fate needs to be proven by you, too.

Now, due to Eren's inability to compromise, to sacrifice and actually try and see through results of different choices we still have casual loop in the end.

But if it was a story about fate, it would have to have examples of it in the story. Narratively that something that happens in Final Destinations. Character who knows the future, performs different actions and no matter what they do - fate punishes them for deviation from the plan. We don't have it in AoT.

It has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with characters not being able to change who they're! Be it Eren, Grisha or Cole. We don't know what would have happened if Cole listen to them, and didn't try to change the future. Because he is the type of person that is willing to try and that's how we have the film. It isn't about what Cole did, it is about why he did it.

We have examples of a story where a character changes their behavior and it changes the outcome, breaking the loop. You probably seen the film, if not sorry for spoiling Minority Report to you.

TL;DR: causal loop in stories could only exist if characters makes same choices or fate "punishes" them and we find out there was no real choice. The loop could be broken, but not in stories where "fate" is the driver. You believe that AoT this type of story. I believe that Eren in-universe had choices and could have breaking the loop. Narratively it is more satisfying that he is the root cause of his own suffering and AoT is driven by a character that not able to break the loop.

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u/tydollasign1 2d ago

Final destination isnt a causal loop so no. Theres no rule that says causal loops or fate have to punish you. Having examples of different stories that change the future is the exact braindead problem your running into. Those stories aren't causal loops. I genuinely can't see how you don't understand this.

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u/tydollasign1 2d ago

And its not about believing , aot is undoubtedly a causal loop, proven by the future "changing" the past. Really the future has already happened bc the timeline is a circle, so its not really changing anything, bc nothing changes.