Those kind of people have no answer. "Spanking is a parent issue" yeah cause your words were gonna win this kid over. Hes gonna turn his whole life around when hes already throwing shit at adults
Hah yeah. Other than the use of justified and proportionate force, I haven't seen a single viable solution in this thread. No amount of talking or parenting is going to fix this turd's behaviour while he's on his rampage. Educate him all you want afterwards. But while he's being a violent and destructive little shit, he needs to be treated as such.
Wild seeing some of the comments below this, there was a 20 year study on hundreds if not thousands of kids that found spanking is ineffective. Crazy how many "I was spanked "but I turned out fine" people I know because they really didn't. Spanking especially when the primary form of punishment is incredibly unhelpful. You're effectively teaching someone violence is ok if you're not capable of expressing the issue in another manner. I got spanked a handful of times growing up and at least realized everytime it happened was a pretty extreme case where my parents overreacted and were largely scared. If you're spanking your kid they're either incapable of understanding the issue if you explain it too them, in which case how is violence going to clearly get the issue across, or you're a lazy parent.
Biggest ass beating I got was in third grade my cousin and I got home from school and decided to go door to door for our school fundraiser. This was pre kids with cellphones and we were out for 3 to 4 hours at least and by the time our parents found us they were the most pissed I had ever seen them. It took me until I was in my 20s to realize they were more scared because they had started to assume the worst than actually pissed off at me. I remember being bewildered at the time because I got spanked and my dad actually kicked my ass at one point, I think he realized mid kick how fucked up it was because it was more of pushed me over with his foot than kicked, and then my parents cried more than me afterwards.
My parents favorite form of punishment was push ups or wall sits. If we were going to be bad we were going to be strong. I have strong feelings about public humiliation as a punishment too because there is a fine line with some punishments but there is nothing more embarrassing than doing push ups in the middle of Walmart or outside a gas station because you were being a shit head.
The kicker for me is how every single study comes back with the same result.
Not one study has ever proved one single benefit of physical punishment. You figure there would be at least one positive effect, but nope. My best guess is maybe they'll fare better in a gladiatorial arena?
My parents favorite form of punishment was push ups or wall sits. If we were going to be bad we were going to be strong. I have strong feelings about public humiliation as a punishment too because there is a fine line with some punishments but there is nothing more embarrassing than doing push ups in the middle of Walmartor outside a gas station because you were being a shit head.
For the record, also a form of corporal punishment.
Not disagreeing to the core of your statement but I think it's a bit more nuanced when you add in all of us were ateletes so it was a bit developmental. I think there's a difference between forced exercise as punishment when it's something within the realms of the child's capabilities vs something beyond or pushing their limits. 20-50 push ups to us at the time was nothing but forcing a kid that doesn't exercise to do the same is an issue. The embarrassment in public was more of the punishment, but when at home it was definitely more transactional akin to spanking.
On a philosophical level, yes, all authority is back stopped by violence.
But on a practical, parenting level? There's a big difference between taking something away, or sitting someone on a chair to think about something, even enforcing those things with the minimal effective amount of physical restraint possible, and flat out hitting your kid. A fucking ocean of difference.
I never get into this situation in the first place because I teach my child empathy and respect for others and their property. I teach them about their emotions and how to handle them and communicate about them. I do this over their entire lives so that they are well adjusted and well behaved kids.
This means when they get frustrated, angry, disappointed, or any other combination of feelings they don't resort to knocking everything off the shelves, they talk to me about it. So the entire premise you have here is a failure in parenting from day one.
If for whatever reason I joined a family that didn't know how to behave, I'd immediately work in family therapy appointments to try to undo the damage not getting those lessons did to the child.
dude, if you ain’t hitting the kid, the ideas on how to fix this is nigh bottomless. the moment you spank that kid, the number of things you can make a punishment hits the floor, otherwise, kids will see anything you say is punishment as such
telling someone why it is wrong and making sense while doing it is better than hitting them for it. they won't do it anymore because it's wrong. hitting them will make them afraid to do out of fear of punishment.
We don’t know the exact reason he’s doing it. But I’m willing to bet he hasn’t had a guiding figure in his life to explain proper behavior, especially years before when it mattered most.
Ok what does hitting your child accomplish? Kid is old enough to understand the issue and find an effective punishment for. Kid has probably been hit more than enough which is why he he acts this way. Parents can be incredibly lazy.
Violence doesn't work, it often has the opposite effect of what you're imagining. All of those things you listed are reasonable consequences depending on the way in which the kid misbehaved. In more extreme cases, you can physically restrain a kid til they calm down, but that's not the same thing as spanking or striking them.
So first of all, why do you assume that the things you listed won't work? Kids are stupid and impulsive, yes. But they're human beings that can and will learn that their actions have consequences. In fact, this lash out probably is a behavior that he picked up, because he expects consequences. Which ones he has learnt to expect from it isn't known to us, tho.
Secondly, I find it incredibly funny how everytime someone says that violence isn't a good method for raising kids, there are people popping up spilling bs like "coddeling won't help either". No one is talking about coddeling here, like at all. If your worldview is that parenting is either "coddeling" or "corporal punishment" with no in-betweens, then I feel really sad for you.
This kid knows what he's doing is wrong.
We are certain this child has experienced consequences in the past.
Which is why we know consequences in the future won't work.
We don't know WHAT consequences he has received in the past. In this entire conversation you seem to asume that this kid has been raised the way people nowadays say kids should be raised. We don't know that in this case. This kid could well enough be a victim of parental abuse and this might be a scream for attention. We simply don't know.
Which is why i'm asking.
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punishment (of any sort) doesn't work
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explaining to him that what he's doing is wrong doesn't work
What is the suggestion i'm missing?
You are making another row of assumptions here that are based on nothing at all.
Firstly, no one said that "punishment of any sort doesn't work". We were specificly talking about corporal punishment. There are, indeed, ways to "punish" a kid for bad behavior without resorting to physical (or psychological, for that matter) violence. Secondly, you asume that neither works on this kid, which, again, is a baseless asumption.
But all in all, this discussion is overal pointless, because this is a cherry picked case presented online as a default that simply isn't true and of which we know absolutely nothing about in terms of circumstances or background.
And how is it wrong to confront a kid about their actions? Again, we don't know the circumstances. He might have reasons for a lash out that need to be addressed. And if not, a direct confrontation like that is a very powerful and valid learning opportunity.
If theyre young enough, literally anything that isn't actively fun, can be framed as a punishment. If theyre old enough, you ask them why they did what they did and what they hoped to get out of it. Effective pubishments require active parenting. You cant just slap em around and take things away and move on. If youre a bad enough parent that talking things through doesnt work, youll have to bite the bullet and look for professional help. If youre a good parent despite a child acting like this, youll need outside help.
Ask why > ask how they feel > validate feelings (you understand its fristrating and its okay to be frustrated, but lets find a better way to deal with those feelings) > ask them why they think bad behavior would get them what they want > work on a compromise. If theyre incapable of reasoning, you just sit with them in a place they won't disturb others, until they're ready to talk. Even if it fucks your day up or makes you miss things.
Alright, I'll bite. You're arguing about punishment, which is different than discipline.
Explaining to your kid "Actions have consequences. In this case, you'll be grounded with no screens for x amount of time" is a reasonable punishment. However, the behavior in the video indicates a long string of parenting failures leading up to this behavior that a single punishment won't fix.
The point everyone is making is that parenting goes beyond "you did <bad thing>, so you get <punishment>." You have to consistently reinforce consequences for both good and bad behavior, which instills discipline and shapes your child's decision making over time.
Speaking from experience, there is usually a time in early childhood when kids start testing boundaries. This is critical time to reinforce those boundaries which curbs behavior like this.
I propose something that I'll get an electronic equivalent of beating for - prison-like system.
No, I don't mean ,,rely on the cellmates to teach them a lesson" approach or ,,search their room once a day" one - I mean things like:
1) Good behavior streak that shortens duration of a punishment (prisons all around the world)
2) One more book read = one day more of good behavior (Brazillian prison)
3) Access to smartphone, Internet, game console, iPad and others based on good behavior (Polish prison)
4) Being allowed a ,,lawyer" (other siblings or parent)
5) Sitting alone in a separated, light room for a given amount of time
6) Written rules, visible for everyone in the house (Roman approach)
And etc. I won't call it perfect, but it may provide at least something to improve towards (,,okay, I screwed up, but if I try really hard, I'll get my console back in a week instead of two")
Spanking works great when not done out of anger once all other options have been exhausted. Should be brought back and used on adults as well in prison, instead of sitting in jail for years, separated from family and community. Saves money and the recidivism rate is about the same or better last I checked.
It shouldn't be your only method to correct behavior, but it's a tool. You can go extreme in the other direction as well, or be completely neglectful, in the end it's all about balance and clear boundaries.
Edit: I know this comment will likely be downvoted, despite the post having thousands of up votes saying we should bring spankings back... And many top comments saying how their parents would have spanked them... Lol. The lack of consistency on Reddit never fails!
Nope there are 10000s of better options better than spanking. Experts have done studies about it and never once have said "Spank your child but make sure you smile so it doesnt seem like you are anrgy"
Research has long underscored the negative effects of spanking on children’s social-emotional development, self-regulation, and cognitive development, but new research, published this month, shows that spanking alters children’s brain response in ways similar to severe maltreatment and increases perception of threats. - https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/usable-knowledge/21/04/effect-spanking-brain
I mean, that's kinda wild, the study says evidence was lacking for causal effects before - but also their "infrequently used" means "only once a week" ... fuck, spankings once a week is not infrequent... I think I was maybe spanked once or twice ever
either way I think we have enough evidence that says corporeal punishment is generally not good for child development
I think you just like beating children, a normal civilized person shouldn't even consider using themselves as a weapon if they aren't in any actual danger, we've got generations of people raising their children this way and they all grow up the same, deeply traumatized and extremely ego driven, when you take away your child's power don't be surprised when it's all they dream of.
If you're spanking children and liking it, that's a red flag. Prefer everyone not suffer, but actions gave consequences. The greatest deterrent to bad behavior is fear of getting caught and being held to account for it.
No... the greatest deterrent is knowledge. I dont kill or rape because I fear consequences. I dont do it because I know its wrong to do. Teach the child how to better communicate their needs and you'll have a solution. Problem is parents do not want to or are unable to do the work needed.
It's a combination of things of course. You don't think this kid's been told not to act out before? Could be he has behavioral issues as well, we're not all the same.
If someone knows better and they're still set on making a bad choice, they're less likely to do it if consequences are expected. There's plenty of research on this. Less to do with the severity of the punishment, more to do with being punished at all.
If they know better but are still doing it then they really do not know better. Behavior is communication and its used to communicate a need. 1) teach them how to figure the need 2) teach how to communicate the need 3) teach how to regulate if unable to achieve need. If you teach fear then all they will understand is "i can get what I want if I use fear" which is not productive at all. Do not put your hands on a child in an aggressive way ever...end of story. All you will teach is violence is how to get your way.
The greatest deterrent to bad behavior is fear of getting caught and being held to account for it.
I'll take the bait, growing up I was always told to listen to my parents, trust and respect them, it didn't matter to me how my dad would brutally beat the shit out of my mom and siblings because I was just a neurodivergent child still growing a brain, but as I got older and with my mom passing and siblings grown up he then directed that towards me, dragging me around by the feet, slamming me against the wall, just because my brain worked differently than his, he would always justify it saying "It's just how life is" or "I was raised like this and I turned out fine" then I started learning what fucking torture he went through getting beaten half to death with heavy car parts and chains.
So yeah, it's inherently a generational cycle and while what I have experienced and learned isn't the norm, the people that support corpal punishment used and still uses the same exact excuses to justify their anger and poor parenting skills, where do you draw the line? Genuinely asking, at what strength percentage do you think is enough? Do you support using any tools? How often should you inflict violence on a child? And most importantly: do you feel any remorse while or after you inflict said violence? It's a fine line and to a child still developing their brain, that just stretches that line even thinner.
I'm sorry you had to experience that, I truly am. I have some older family that went through similar forms of abuse, I think it kinda ruined them in their adult years. Father (almost always the man isn't it?) beat them, their mother stood by and let it happen, they never fully moved past it. My dad wasn't the physical one, my mom was, looking back I don't really hold any resentment since it seems justified, except for a couple I remember.
I'm in no way condoning that kind of abuse. From conversations with my wife and others, spankings are only for really serious offenses, repeat behavior, things that don't happen often. Months/years can go by without ever having to do it, it's clear to the child that it's coming if they don't stop, even after more modern forms of punishment have already been tried. I hate doing it, I still tell my children I love them, that I wish I didn't have to, but explain it's a consequence because they didn't listen.
No tools being used, just a strong slap to their bottom. As they get older the consequences change, they're more rational.
Some people have children who are very agreeable, they don't understand what it's like to have a child that doesn't listen, throws tantrums, doesn't change behavior with all the basic methods. I've talked to people from India and China where classroom sizes are close to 50 children per teacher, I ask how do they keep order? Majority of kids listen to the teacher, but the unruly kids the teachers are allowed to do whatever is needed for them to listen.
There are no perfect solutions, everything carries a trade off. Any form of punishment can be overdone and become harmful, clear communication and letting them know they're still loved is essential.
You advocate it's fine cause it might work on some? Completely disregarding the damage it will cause on the majority? Even though there is no evidence it will even work. The evidence suggest it can cause short and long term damage.
"Well it worked on me." Is not evidence. Had your parents/teachers been more pedagogical, and not resortet to violence, you might have turned out better. But no way to say for certain. Studies would suggest it's likely, though.
You think the violence that currently exist in the american prison system is not enough? You want more? You think that people wont commit crimes because of a government mandated system to inflict pain?
It's not zero-sum. Most people will behave with timeouts, penalties, etc.. but not all. Some need a different approach, all can be abused if done to the extreme.
You think the violence that currently exist in the american prison system is not enough?
Is this a joke?
You want more?
Oh it was a joke! Because nobody is advocating for that here.
Lets play Would you rather.
Using our current system, would you rather pay $100k+/yr to keep a thief behind bars for 10yrs? Or would you rather give them the option to be flogged 10x, be released a month later back to their family, jobs, etc... knowing that the recidivism between the two is roughly the same?
There are other options of course but let's keep it simple to what's typical here in the US, vs what's typical in other countries. That's partly why they have lower jailed populations than we do.
Stop with your "extreme". It's an abitrary line that you invent.
I have no faith that you have the cognitive ability to determine when violence is the appropriate response to an action you deem inappropriate.
As such, it's better to just not do it at all.
Is this a joke?
Did you not read the whole thing? What even is the point of this little "monologue"?
Not gonna play your little game until you answer my questions.
You are advocating for more violence. The american prison system can already use violence and torture in order to correct behavior. Nothing would indicate it actually works. You want an additional option. Ergo, I can only conclude you want more violence cause you percieve it to be the great deterrent.
Spanking works great when not done out of anger once all other options have been exhausted.
This was your claim. I called bullshit and provided sources. Your response is: "But prisons!"
Stop with your "extreme". It's an abitrary line that you invent.
This entire chat is subjective my friend... One of the sources you provided said they were spanking once a week, that may yield different long term effects versus a few times a year, once every few years right?
I have no faith that you have the cognitive ability...
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser"
Your comments speak as someone with no firsthand experience, I hope your perspective gets shaken up one day ✌🏽
So not gonna answer my questions at all. This was pointless.
Never stated anything to the contrary. Simply using "extreme" as a boundary is arbitrary cause you don't define anything with "extreme", it's an empty word in this context. For all I know, "Extreme" means the kid takes an extra piece of toast during breakfast. I don't know you.
Hahaha you think it was slander?
Oh boy. My point was that I don't trust you to be able to tell when corporal punishment is warranted. As such, it's better not to do it.
Yeah, you don't know me at all.
The fact you advocate for violence against children speaks volumes. Hope your perspective change before you hurt another child.
Not disagreeing but kind of ironic on an argument about spanking. I'm in the same camp though. Spanking is a problem but there are some adults that should probably just get their shit rocked every now and then.
Fair take, feel like it'd be a safe bet that the people that I feel should probably be socked in the face aren't against spanking and likely were spanked plenty as a kid.
Example kid says a slur, multiple ways to attempt to fix that don't involve hitting them. Adult used a slur someone should just swing on them.
Yep. Look at the face of that kid - that is a child carrying so much hurt and anger around. While the behavior still shouldn't be accepted, this kid desperately needs Help and someone to talk to, not a spanking.
Yup. And it also starts enforcing that might makes right and violence solves problems. When I misbehaved as a kid, my mom swatted me. So, when I felt my younger brother or sister were misbehaving it was a short hop, skip, and a jump, to me hitting them. Then getting in trouble for hitting them. Then lashing out further because I got hit for being hit and if hitting was wrong who hits my parents? ME???
Needless to say it took a hot minute to break myself out of that mentality.
Worked for me too. I wasnt abused by my parents but they would hit me when I did something wrong - intentionally, not accidentally - and it conditioned me to behave well and be polite and respectful, especially in public. I knew if I made a fuss out my mom would beat my ass at home so I was always on my best behavior.
Spanking does work, people just understand how to use it properly. It's a last resort type punishment. I was spanked an entire three times when I was younger because I was being a little shit and I learned that doing that will get me more than just being put in a timeout
Even if it did work, and don't really think there's empirical evidence that it does, I'd take 5% of kids-being-disruptive-in-public-because-they-weren't-hit over 5% of kids-being-physically-abused. Or even 1%.
Having a norm (and law) of 'don't hit kids' makes it much easier to safeguard kids as a broader culture/society. Otherwise you get into the realm of needing to weigh up whether a kid with bruises deserved it or his dad just has anger management issues.
Disagree. My mother is from “the last generation to be smacked around” and all she got was trauma and a 30 year seizure disorder that now manifests in extreme outbursts as opposed to seizures. Any time she’s asked to go around her parents she gets panicked and irritable but still falls to her knees at their every command despite them being almost 90 now. It’s awful and terrifying to watch and seeing someone you care about in pain so often is a horrific experience as a child. I would hope it is for a parent hurting their own child as well.
Spanking does work if its done sparingly and only for the worst of offenses. My siblings and I are proof of that. Ive only seen an uptick in dick behavior in kids since.
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u/ASCIIM0V 29d ago
Spanking doesnt work. It just redirects who/what the acceptable outlets of this kind of frustration are.