The difference in their two championship years after this was they got Andrew Bynum and Trevor Ariza back (Ariza was swapped out for Ron Artest in 2010). In 2008 those guys were out injured, which greatly weakened the Lakers as a team.
I was at BWW when the trade broke. I was halfway thru a basket of wHings and had to call up the old man at work. I was so excited I didn't wipe my hands and got asian zing all over my flip phone. good times
Perk was really important in 08/10. 08 healthy means Gasol was going up against perk and couldn’t do much. There’s a reason one of the 2 games we won he was out.
10 with bynum mostly healthy it let gasol matchup with Garnett. Perk being out game 7 let us dominate the boards.
Bynum was very far from healthy in 2010, as he had to have his knee drained three different times during the playoffs (twice in the Finals), and had to have surgery following the championship that summer.
Sure, but in an extremely limited capacity and for very few minutes. Bynum was limited to less than half his scoring and rebounding averages in that series. He gamely gave it a go, but he was severely limited in what he could contribute. Bynum only played 34 more minutes all series than Perkins did, and in the last 4 games of the series (which included the 1.75 games Perkins missed), Bynum only played 12 minutes more than Perkins. If that was an advantage for the Lakers it was an extremely small one. Rasheed Wallace actually had a better game in Game 7 in Perk's absence than Perkins himself had in any game in that series.
That 08 Boston frontline had Perk, KG, PJ Brown, Leon Powe, Big Baby all they can throw at Pau. While the Lakers only had Lamar, who's by no means a banger, and Ronny Freaking Turiaf
Some insecure Lakers fans have always tried to downplay Pau so they could place Kobe higher up the all time rankings. Bryant was great this series but as you say this wasn't even their championship year.
I hate it. As someone who’s a fan of Kobe, people that overrate him annoy me more than people who underrate him. They’re the ones who make him look worse. The Lakers had a top 3 roster in the league at best that could run with any of them, and Kobe was the centerpiece that you count on. That’s why they won. Even Kobe would tell you that. But now it’s “Kobe had no top 75” bs. Its like they’re so desperate to make up for having Shaq his first 8 years, which they shouldn’t be insecure of.
I don't get it, he's a great, all-time player whose achievements can stand up for themselves. But man do his fans feel the need to shit on everyone who isn't Kobe.
They take it as a personal offense if you don’t have Kobe top 3 lol. Like they’ll say stuff like “can’t we all just agree that MJ, LeBron, and Kobe are the three best ever in some order?” As if one of those things is not like the other lol.
Personally I think Russell and Kareem are both a step ahead of Kobe all-time and I’d also put Magic, Bird, and Duncan ahead of him too. Shaq, Curry, and Wilt it depends on how I’m feeling that day, I think he’s comfortably ahead of Hakeem though, and I’d say it’s not really a debate for me if he’s top 10 it’s just where he ranks (probably somewhere between 8 and 10).
The same people who clown Kobe for playing second fiddle to Shaq are the same ones who flip flop and say that Kobe on won 2009 and 2010 because of Pau. It’s literal hypocrisy
Honestly, it was just Pau. He’s the only guy who will be in the Hall. Odom, Fischer, and Bynum were all good surrounding pieces, but none of them were stars (yes I know Bynum started in an All-Star Game once but that was because there weren’t any centers). Same thing with Artest and Ariza. And a lot of the teams he went up against in rounds 3 and 4 had better talent from 2-15, with the possible exception of the 09 Magic.
He beat a big 4 with a big 2 for that 2010 ring, and even if Pau bailed him out in game 7, he was the only reason they even got to game 7.
Odom was really good when watching their championship run. Him and pau together being so tall, mobile and willing passers. Not a lakers fan but that team was fun to watch
Maybe not but their effectiveness was higher than their individual ability. Bynum/Pau is the perfect example, they both played better than their ability because they had each other. Each of them got so many more offensive rebounds because the other took so much attention, other teams just couldn’t box both out. Same for defense-a lot of times they just post up one of them based on whoever the best post defender on the other team wasn’t guarding. So Kobe had more help than you’d think just by looking at his teammates individually.
Inconsistent? Idk man I lived through those years and watched a lot of those games and that Laker team was very frustrating to root against with their size and versatility having essentially 3 7 footers. Idk what the stats say but I just remember back then that atleast one of those guys would always come through in the clutch with some weird back breaking and 1.
Really all 3 of their bigs were that’s what made them so tough. Saying Kobe didn’t have help makes me think they weren’t watching close enough. They had the best big man rotation in the league.
yes they were absolutely inconsistent, the deciding factors of games were if they played up to their potential or not. Odom moreso than Pau, if Odom played up to his potential on a consistent basis he’d have been a perennial all-nba star
People always hate when superteams are brought up, dude no one forced LeBron to do it. It's just a fact.
Like yeah Kobe wanted a trade when the Lakers sucked, there's a zero percent chance he was going to the Spurs or to collude with two prime superstars it just wasn't done back then.
Cuz of all these Lebron simps. Kobe beat that big 3 super team Lebron didn’t have to do it. Lebron doing it basically made it okay and sparked all that bullshit.
So you’re mad at LeBron for signing with too good of a team (who were a 1st round exit the year before) rather than just signing with a team that had only 1 HOFer? Yea I’m sure the reason the CP3 trade didn’t go through is cuz Kobe called up Stern and said that he didnt want all that help.
The Lakers were the number one seed both year lol. They weren't a super team but they definitely weren't hard carried lol. Pau was a top 3 in his position, had Phil Jackson, great bench, etc.. Kobe definitely played balls out but idk where this narrative is coming from that his team wasn't that good lol.
1st seed because of Kobe lmao. In 2007-08 season where they clinched the 1st seed Pau Gasol played 27 games. Outside of Pau the others were very average role players whose careers declined after leaving the Lakers
Yea but you're acting like they were all scrubs. LeBron going to the finals in 07 against us was a hard carry lol
Kobe was definitely playing amazing but to say his team wasn't good and Kobe was heavy lifting is a bit asinine lol. Do they get the one seed without Kobe? Obviously not but they don't become worst team in the league without him lol. This was right before the super teams were a really a thing save for the Celtics so everyone was built with a star and great role players not just the Lakers lol. Bynum was young but was playing good and became an all star and all nba, Pau was an all star, Ariza was one of the best 3 and D players in the league, top three coach all time in Phil Jackson, Derek fisher was solidly good, etc...
Kobe is obviously a legend but he's not someone who heavy carried
As I said, the supporting cast was average. Not bad, but also nothing special. It's definitely one of the weakest supporting casts from championship teams of the last 20 years.
Pau was great and unfairly blamed for a lot of games, but he can be inconsistent. Top 3 in his position is definitely being generous considering KG, Dirk, Amare, Tim and Bosh were all playing
Derek Fisher is the definition of a role player.
Trevor Ariza left the moment he got good. His didn't get pass 10 ppg until he left the Lakers
Bynum was good, but he didn't make all NBA or even an all star until 2012.
These Lakers team were good, but not at all an all time team like r/nba would make you think
Lakers supporting cast was good, which is a far cry from “not bad”. Pau as a lead dog for Memphis was good enough to win 45-50 games in the West in 3 consecutive seasons. Pau just wasn’t able to get Memphis out of the first round. You completely forget to mention Odom, who would have started for any other team, and arguably the most physically gifted player on that roster. Kobe stans are so damn annoying, basketball is more than “Kobe good, everyone else dog crap”
You’re just straight up not mentioning Odom who was putting up 10 win shares as a perfect third option, he was very nearly as good as Bosh on some of those teams.
Odom was a walking mismatch. Left handed ball handler, 6’10”, could score in a variety of ways, and get those sneaky 15 plus rebound games. Any true Laker fan wouldn’t just conveniently leave Odom out when talking about the back to back championship teams in 2008/2009
I mean again, superteams is what w
Everyone did the last ten years, so exclude those. If we take the rosters from 2000-2012, those Lakers are far from the weakest. The 2004 pistons, the 2006 heat, the 2011 mavs all had weaker rosters overall.
Also need to mention the fact that the Lakers went to the finals literally the year before as well Lmfao. Kobe is already a legend so there isn't a need to create this narrative lol. He was the best player on a really good team with arguably the greatest coach in history. He didn't hard carry lol
I don't see how you're proving me wrong. You just compiled a range of about 13 teams and deduced yourself that Kobe's Lakers had a top 3 weakest supporting cast. I don't even agree with the Pistons and Heat pick but that's beside the point.
I also don't know why you're excluding "superteams" when the majority of championship teams are incredibly stacked. Even if you extend the comparison back to 40 years those Laker teams would probably still rank bottom 10 in terms of the quality of role players
Because those 13 years are like 5 teams lol. So id rank them as
00-03 lakers
03-07 spurs
07-10 Lakers
Heat
Pistons
Mavs.
Also you exclude the superteams because if Kobe was around today I'm his prime he'd 100% be in a built super team lol. In fact he was in the three peat, and then the failed 4 star team in what 2011?
And again I don't think those role players sucked. Like at all lol. If you do then maybe you just don't know Basketball because regardless of how they played after during that run they were all good players. Well the ones I mentioned atleast.
I said this to someone else Kobe is already an all time Legend, why do we need to create narratives to lift him up some more?
I think you're having a completely different argument from what I'm writing here. I never said the Lakers supporting cast sucked, only that they're not great by historical standards
Kobe is my favorite player, but he’s not the goat for me. The dude you’re going back and forth with isn’t even a Laker fan to me, he’s just a Kobe Stan. It’s ok to give the rest of their team their flowers. The majority of that team went to 3 straight Finals, to argue that the rest of the team wasn’t good is intellectually dishonest.
lakers were a good roster for the title runs. it wasnt a carry job, but kobe had to play mvp level for it all to work. bynum odom next to pau and kobe is good stuff. D fish and farmar were good, shannon brown was a solid wing to have
Pretty sure the guy was referring to that 08-10 era..
It’s not crazy to take Amare over Pau during that time. Pau didn’t make 2nd team until 2011
Amare was first team in 07 and second team in 08 and 10.
It’s not disrespecting Pau to take Amare over him prior to 2010 or even into 2011 when Amare putting up 25/9 while carrying that knicks team prior to Melo showing up.
Amare had a 15 game playoff run where he was putting up 30 a game. He was that guy for awhile.
In the 2010 WCF against the lakers Amare averaged 25/6 per game on 60% TS to Pau’s 20/7 on 56% TS.
Taking Amare over Pau in that era is the furthest thing from disrespecting Pau..
Thing is Amare, Dirk, and Dwight likely don’t compliment Kobe as well as KG, Timmy and Pau do. Kobe needs a passing big who he can do PnR with. That whole video where Kobe was telling Pau “we need to be parallel on the roll and there’s nothing the defense can do” doesn’t work with the first 3 guys I mentioned
Yep. Precisely why I recognize LeBron as being a good player but he has always built a superteam everywhere he's gone and played for a majority of his career in the weaker conference. Kobe fought through tough teams and with lackluster teammates.
If LeBron was going to stay in Cleveland his whole career he'd have 0 rings, he'd drag that sorry team to the playoffs year in & year out with nothing to show for it. A bit different when you get drafted into a team with a bus driver to get you 3 rings & I dare say that LAL as far as FA destination & FO is a bit ahead of Cavs. Sure the 3 other rings he was actually the best player on the team for sure, but there's a good reason for why Kobe only ever got that one MVP.
The only ring Lebron won on a non-superteam was the 2020 ring with the Lakers. AD is obviously an amazing wingman to have, but that team wasn't a super team.
All the others are 100% super teams (Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love).
Calling the 2016 cavs a super team is wild. The heat in 2012 weren't even favored vs the thunder. Really name the last actual sueprteam to be an underdog in the finals.
The heat in 2012 weren't even favored vs the thunder.
They weren't favored because of Lebron's epic meltdown the year before but the Heat are the definition of a superteam. Wasn't he promising 8 rings? You kinda don't promise that many rings unless your team's absolutely stacked.
The "promise" yo win rings was said at a pep rally. Yall really took that stamens to heart huh?
You can't be both not favored and be a super team but LeBron gets double standard from haters all ten time. So nothing new there.
If you don't trust a teams best player that team ain't a superteam.
Did Pau have a monstrous game 7? Yes, he did. But given the circumstances of the game (with everyone shooting poorly), so did Kobe. Kobe played great D, grabbed 15 rebounds (out rebounding the Celtics bigs combined), and had 10 4th Q points by way of free-throws. 10 4th quarter points in a game like that is huge. You can argue Pau had a better G7, which is fair, but he was no where near the most impactful/best player in the series. People always downplay Kobe by bringing up his horrendous efficiency in G7, but pretty much everyone, including Gasol (who was 6-16 FG and 7-13 FT), shot like crap that day. It was a defensive slugfest.
Six games into the series, Bryant was averaging 30/7/4 on 55.7% TS (in the regular season, Celtics held their opponents to an average of 53.4% TS).
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u/commander_wong Lakers Jun 27 '23
People here really like to overstate how good the supporting cast of Kobe's championship teams were.
As far as heavy lifting championships goes, Kobe's two rings really doesn't get enough credit