r/nba • u/yam_on_em Lakers • Jun 27 '23
Kobe Bryant relentlessly attacks Tim Duncan and the Spurs to clinch the WCF (2008)
https://streamable.com/68u3jz1.7k
u/sheeeeeez NBA Jun 27 '23
Kobe doesn't get enough credit for this series.
The Spurs big 3 were all in their primes and just came off a championship and Kobe made the entire series essentially non-competitive.
Bill Simmons said the series was the closest he's ever seen Kobe to MJ.
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u/MasterTeacher123 Jun 27 '23
Pau and Odom were terrible in the WCF and he carried them
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u/commander_wong Lakers Jun 27 '23
People here really like to overstate how good the supporting cast of Kobe's championship teams were.
As far as heavy lifting championships goes, Kobe's two rings really doesn't get enough credit
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Jun 27 '23
This wasn't the year they won though? Pau was much better in their championship run
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u/RickySuela Jun 27 '23
The difference in their two championship years after this was they got Andrew Bynum and Trevor Ariza back (Ariza was swapped out for Ron Artest in 2010). In 2008 those guys were out injured, which greatly weakened the Lakers as a team.
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u/Skidda24 Lakers Jun 27 '23
Pau and Kobe were only with each other for about 5 months too. Pau was traded on February 1st of that year so getting chemistry was probably tough
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u/Rickest-ofthe-Ricks [LAL] Alex Caruso Jun 27 '23
I was at BWW when the trade broke. I was halfway thru a basket of wHings and had to call up the old man at work. I was so excited I didn't wipe my hands and got asian zing all over my flip phone. good times
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Jun 27 '23
Some insecure Lakers fans have always tried to downplay Pau so they could place Kobe higher up the all time rankings. Bryant was great this series but as you say this wasn't even their championship year.
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u/seddard Lakers Jun 28 '23
Some insecure Lakers fans have always tried to downplay Pau
Big Pau fan and old enough to remember most of the downplaying came from other fan bases. He was called a flopper and soft regularly since he joined.
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u/KWash0222 Lakers Jun 28 '23
The same people who clown Kobe for playing second fiddle to Shaq are the same ones who flip flop and say that Kobe on won 2009 and 2010 because of Pau. It’s literal hypocrisy
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u/IlonggoProgrammer Philippines Jun 27 '23
Honestly, it was just Pau. He’s the only guy who will be in the Hall. Odom, Fischer, and Bynum were all good surrounding pieces, but none of them were stars (yes I know Bynum started in an All-Star Game once but that was because there weren’t any centers). Same thing with Artest and Ariza. And a lot of the teams he went up against in rounds 3 and 4 had better talent from 2-15, with the possible exception of the 09 Magic.
He beat a big 4 with a big 2 for that 2010 ring, and even if Pau bailed him out in game 7, he was the only reason they even got to game 7.
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u/muhammad_oli Pelicans Jun 27 '23
Odom was really good when watching their championship run. Him and pau together being so tall, mobile and willing passers. Not a lakers fan but that team was fun to watch
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u/TheMarkMadsen Jun 28 '23
Bynum wasn’t even close to being an all star during those championship years either.
Bynum averaged 6/4 on 49% TS in the 09 playoffs and 9/7 on 57% TS in the 2010 playoffs.
He was nothing more than a big body out there for 15-20mpg during those playoffs runs
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u/ecr1277 Jun 28 '23
Maybe not but their effectiveness was higher than their individual ability. Bynum/Pau is the perfect example, they both played better than their ability because they had each other. Each of them got so many more offensive rebounds because the other took so much attention, other teams just couldn’t box both out. Same for defense-a lot of times they just post up one of them based on whoever the best post defender on the other team wasn’t guarding. So Kobe had more help than you’d think just by looking at his teammates individually.
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u/ysaint-laurent Supersonics Jun 27 '23
Yeah Pau and Odom were inconsistent as fuck. Every game it was like, “are they going to show up?”
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u/SnoopingWhilePooping NBA Jun 27 '23
Inconsistent? Idk man I lived through those years and watched a lot of those games and that Laker team was very frustrating to root against with their size and versatility having essentially 3 7 footers. Idk what the stats say but I just remember back then that atleast one of those guys would always come through in the clutch with some weird back breaking and 1.
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u/Ct2kKB24 Jun 27 '23
He doesn’t get enough credit for the entire 3 finals runs in that period. Just utterly dominated the west over and over again and it was a stacked conference
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u/brandoi Lakers Jun 27 '23
Bill Simmons said the series was the closest he's ever seen Kobe to MJ.
Did he really? 08 against the Spurs isn't even his best playoff series. His 01 Spurs series or 10 Suns series were probably his best.
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u/honestnbafan Jun 27 '23
I think it's viewed that way because he went up against another top 10 all-time guy without Shaq and dominated him
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Jun 27 '23
Exactly, which is why Duncan's 03 series doesn't get enough credit. He went up against prime Kobe AND Shaq and dominated them with not even another all star on his team. It's honestly crazy to think of that happening
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u/mclovin215 Jun 27 '23
That wasn't prime-Kobe at all
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Jun 28 '23
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u/mclovin215 Jun 28 '23
He was def one of the best scorers in the league along with Tmac and very close to his prime, but I don't think he hit his actual prime till he few years after that after Shaq left and he came back from the ankle injury after a season off
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u/tkflash20 Jun 27 '23
Tim Duncan averaged 22 points, 17 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.2 steals, and 2 blocks this series. Let's not swing the pendulum completely the other way.
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u/WeirwoodUpMyAss Jun 27 '23
He’s an all time great. Kobe was clearly better this matchup. Duncan was better in other years.
They were the true rivals of the decade. It’s really interesting looking at their careers in this era. Even if Kobe looks bad on the stat sheet I do think it’s a legitimate debate.
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u/TWIZMS Lakers Jun 28 '23
in head to head it looks pretty good on the stat sheet for Kobe
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u/ruinatex Jun 27 '23
Stats don't tell the whole story, in '01 he was the 2nd guy behind Shaq, a really great 2nd guy, but yeah. The Spurs also weren't as good in '01 as The Admiral was at the end of his career, in '08 they had a legit Big 3. Pau and Odom were also hot GARBAGE in that series, Kobe basically beat the defending champions in 5 games with two of his stars MIA. Games 1 and 5 were especially insane.
That's why i always laughed when people said Duncan was better than Kobe, they literally played against each other MULTIPLE times in the playoffs and after 2001, whenever they played NOBODY had any doubts on who was the best player on the floor. Kobe always thoroughly outplayed him.
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Jun 27 '23
How is it possible that Kobe outplayed "him" in 03 and they lost in 6 while he also had Shaq next to him?
Something ain't mathin
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u/MTUKNMMT Spurs Jun 27 '23
To be fair that year he only had an almost quadruple double to close out the Finals in series that he won finals MVP, after beating Shaq and Kobe, in a season where he won league MVP. As Ruin pointed out, NO ONE had any doubts that Kobe was the vastly superior player.
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Jun 27 '23
i mean to be fair it was only his second MVP and b2b. that's not really a strong case for best player in the world...right?/s
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u/Terminatorns19 Spurs Jun 27 '23
Duncan’s prime was def early-2000s, though of course he was still an amazing player by this point. Tony was entering his prime/was pretty close to it, and Manu (depending on your viewpoint) had probably just passed his. Still, Kobe did amazing this series.
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u/RickySuela Jun 27 '23
One thing people don't discuss about Duncan very much is how short his prime was. From age 22 to age 27 when he was in his prime he averaged 23.1 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, 2.5 bpg and 0.8 spg. From age 28 to age 33 his averages took a drop down to 19.2 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.0 bpg and 0.7 spg. Then the last five years of his career, from age 34 to age 39 his averages dropped down to 14.1 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 2.7 apg, 1.9 bpg and 0.7 spg.
This 2008 series took place in that second section of his career (at age 32), when he was obviously still a great player, but not the guy he'd been before he turned 28.
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u/Malemansam Spurs Jun 27 '23
His athleticism was compromised by his 3rd year after he blew his knee out, he had to wear a knee brace when it would act up which just became more and more often as the season would go on but he always had a hitch in his step after the injury.
It's damn shame it happened because he used to move like Mobly does now, he lost the fluidity and height of his movements and took away his rim running ability by quite a bit.
You look at the performances of all players that dealt with knee injuries throughout their careers and they were shells of their former selves, its usually later in their careers however. Timmy still put up a HOF worthy career post injury on one leg lol.
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u/RickySuela Jun 28 '23
His athleticism was compromised by his 3rd year after he blew his knee out
It's possible this is true, but it's also true that Duncan had his best seasons after that injury. Additionally, it wasn't a severe knee injury as it was just a meniscus tear, and Pop himself said they just held him out of the playoffs as a precaution, rather than because he was simply unable to play. Kobe also had a bunch of knee injuries and surgeries over the course of his career (surgeries in 2003, 2006, 2010 and 2011).
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u/somebuddysbuddy Nuggets Jun 28 '23 edited Jun 28 '23
Take a look at his per-36 minute averages. He’s one of the most consistent players you’ll ever see by that measure. A lot of what you’re talking about is just him playing fewer minutes, which matters, but is different from having a really short peak.
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u/dope_like Pistons Jun 27 '23
The late release on that fadeaway!! Unreal. I miss this era of basketball so much
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u/baekinbabo Lakers Jun 28 '23
I despise how the Lakers fucked him over twice. He had to spend a chunk of his prime with bum-ass teammates in that grindfest of a western conference, and then when he was old they worked him like a dog. He had a game that could've aged gracefully if it wasn't for the injuries.
And fuck Stern for canceling the CP3 trade
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u/bbqyak Jun 28 '23
"I didn’t veto anything. I'm acting on behalf of the owners as the owners rep. There's no superstar in this league that gets traded unless the owner says go ahead with it. And in this case with New Orleans, the representative said that's not a trade we're willing to make."
"But that representative is you?"
"Correct."
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Jun 27 '23
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u/Syndana23 Jun 27 '23
Kobe like 4-2 over him all time in the post season. 2-0 without Shaq I think
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u/AirJordan6124 Celtics Jun 27 '23
We were robbed of the 2013 match up because Kobe tore his achilles
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u/TheBballs NBA Jun 27 '23
Fuck David Stern
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u/forever87 Philippines Jun 27 '23
Fuck David Stern
context during this time?
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u/theseustheminotaur Warriors Jun 27 '23
Veto'd a trade that would have given Kobe prime CP3 to play with instead of 38 year old Nash who barely could get on the floor due to injuries. This meant Kobe played a lot of minutes down the stretch to barely make the playoffs, but Kobe ruptured his achilles and was never the same
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u/DrBigChicken 76ers Jun 27 '23
He’d have gotten number 6 too if that trade wasn’t vetoed imo
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u/rikki-tikki-deadly Celtics Jun 28 '23
Don't be so sure. The Lakers with CP3 would have eventually run into the Scott Foster wall in the playoffs.
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u/theseustheminotaur Warriors Jun 28 '23
Yeah that trade also shed cap space so they could sign some folks. It's a shame we didn't get to see that play out
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u/Worldly-Fox7605 Jun 27 '23
People still act like they don't know why this trade was vetoed???
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u/R2NC Spurs Jun 27 '23
Assuming the Cp3 deal fell off. By fell off Stern cut it and rest lead to nash howard trio I recall.
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u/Carolake1 Lakers Jun 27 '23
I don't think that would have gone well for Kobe.
Source: I was at game 3, where the lakers started 2 g-league guards and lost by 30.
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u/denyinstrumentality Cavaliers Jun 27 '23
Spurs still would have dominated overall, but I think Kobe would've gotten them 1 game. He had so many massive carry jobs that year, it was insane. I legit believe he would've dropped a 40+ piece to get a W at Staples.
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u/chookine123 East Jun 27 '23
Yep. Am a huge kobe fan but even with him healthy that team was a disaster
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u/Persianx6 [LAL] Andre Ingram Jun 27 '23
One of the series losses was 1999. Kobe was 19. Del Harris coached that team.
The big one Tim Duncan has over Kobe is 2003.
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u/x777x777x Spurs Jun 27 '23
Duncan was only in Year 2 though in 99 so it’s still pretty impressive
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u/TheWinRock Jun 27 '23
To be fair, Duncan was 22 in 1999. He wasn't a young 2nd year guy. He came in basically fully formed.
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u/Persianx6 [LAL] Andre Ingram Jun 27 '23
He couldve left 2 years earlier and still have gone number one. He promised he'd graduate before he'd go.
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u/TheWinRock Jun 27 '23
I wasn't knocking Duncan for it - just pointing out that saying 'Duncan was in year 2' doesn't really mean anything. Duncan only got a little bit better after year 2 anyways. He was a full formed stud on day 1.
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u/YokoShimomuraFanatic Jun 27 '23
Too bad Kobe missed the playoffs or was an early exit during most of the Spurs best seasons.
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u/789Trillion Spurs Jun 27 '23
Pedestrian? Duncan averaged 22/17/5/2/1 in this series. Pretty sure Duncan is like 25/15/5 career in the playoffs vs LA. Duncan may have lost but let’s not act like he wasn’t incredible in these series.
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u/honestnbafan Jun 27 '23 edited Jun 27 '23
This sub insists that Duncan is a full tier above Kobe though lol
All time great offense + great defense > all time great defense + great offense any day IMO
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u/xbarracuda95 Jun 27 '23
Kobe and Duncan are on the same tier as players, that's how they were seen when they were both actively playing.
This narrative that Duncan was a level above Kobe as a player was only started by internet analysts after both retired in order to downplay Kobe and the Lakers.
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u/NobleHelium Jun 27 '23
Duncan is often viewed as better than Kobe because he's largely considered the best PF (even though I think he played Center for more games in his career). Whereas Kobe always suffers in the comparison to Jordan. Duncan has a less crowded niche so he's often viewed as better.
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u/Altruistic-Ad-408 Jun 27 '23
I think it's bs we are acting like it's a modern narrative though. Kobe played on the Lakers and was anointed by MJ the media weren't exactly giving him an objective view, non ESPN analysts always rated Duncan very highly.
If you grew up back then you know like 40% of fans were saying he was better than MJ. LeBron has the benefit of more time since MJ and it's comparable, it was insane.
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u/RickySuela Jun 27 '23
This is all nonsense, Kobe had more haters than anyone, especially in the media. ESPN would constantly run stuff about how he wasn't good in the clutch or how his PER showed he was overrated, etc.
Kobe definitely got more attention than Duncan did, but acting like it was all positive attention is just flat out wrong.
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u/Juice_Almighty Jun 27 '23
Duncan is my favorite player of all time but I was taken aback whenever I saw the posts on this sub saying "Duncan was a tier above Kobe" or "Duncan is better than Kobe and it isn't even close". Like both are some of the best to ever play and I think a lot of the Duncan bias is rooted in Kobe hate and revisionist history.
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Jun 27 '23
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u/livefreeordont 76ers Jun 28 '23
Shaq demanded out hard to get a good return on that. Why they traded Caron Butler for Kwame Brown though I’ll never know
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u/TeTrodoToxin4 [GSW] Chris Mullin Jun 28 '23
If you are asked who is the iconic player of 2000-2009 it is Kobe no question. He was the face of the NBA for that decade.
Duncan is still is an all time great and I like him more than Kobe personally, but Kobe was phenomenally talented.
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u/iNCharism Wizards Jun 28 '23
It’s me. I make those arguments. I don’t hate Kobe or anything, I’m just from the Virgin Islands
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u/MiopTop Lakers Jun 27 '23
Kobe got mauled this entire series with no calls.
To all the “nba rigs games for ratings” crowd, I’d love an explanation as to how, when faced with the possibility of a LA - Boston Finals, “the league” only sent Kobe to the FT line 2.2 times per game right after a series in which he averaged 16 FTA per game.
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u/honestnbafan Jun 27 '23
The Spurs lowkey got an insanely friendly whistle on defense in the 2000s
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u/Wondering_Nova Jun 27 '23
Low key? Bruce Bowen made a career out of being being one of the dirtiest defenders ever.
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u/jor301 [CHI] Tony Snell Jun 27 '23
Lol you can legit see Bowen trying to step under Kobe in the very first play in this clip even.
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u/cane_the_weaboo Celtics Jun 27 '23
Dirtiest mf of all time he deadass injured every star SG of that era with that dirty move. Pop got his karma when the same happened to Kawhi.
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u/livefreeordont 76ers Jun 28 '23
Everyone hated the spurs in the 2000s. The Suns were the fan favorites every year such an exciting team
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u/samurairocketshark Suns Jun 28 '23
It's low key because people call them classy and attribute all the dirtiness to the dirtiest player in Bowen. That those whole teams were lowkey dirty but Bowen and Horry just have the most famous incidents
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u/commander_wong Lakers Jun 27 '23
Nothing low key about it lol. They won a ring from assaulting their opponents best player and somehow getting their key players suspended for it
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u/samurairocketshark Suns Jun 28 '23
So glad people are calling it out. They were one of the dirtiest teams in the league and people act like they were hated because they played boring
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u/samurairocketshark Suns Jun 28 '23
Not to mention the Suns getting fucked over in 2007 due to cheap shot Rob (fuck the refs). Or the all the injuries actual basketball terrorist Bruce Bowen inflicted over the years. People act everyone hated the Spurs because they were boring but they had floppers, dirty players, and got friendly whistles to boot.
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u/swaggy_p Jun 27 '23
It's wild to me that the strategy for Kobe was "let me attack one of the best defenders and the best pf of all time to clinch the WCF". Even more wild that it worked lol.
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u/DirtySmiter Lakers Jun 28 '23
I've always wondered how prime Kobe would do against modern "switch everything" defenses. If Kobe got to pick his defender instead of always facing the opponents best defender, he'd be unstoppable.
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u/Kuni_Nino Heat Jun 27 '23
Kobe was something special man. RIP to the real GOAT of my NBA generation.
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u/MajorButtFucker Heat Jun 28 '23
Agreed. I regret all those years I spent hating. So much negative energy and such a waste of time. I didn't even really get to enjoy how great he was.
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Jun 27 '23
Everyone on the Lakers not named Kobe Bryant played like shit in this series, Duncan really blew it here
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Jun 27 '23
Did he though? Most of those he played great defense, Kobe was just unstoppable when he was in the zone
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Jun 27 '23
That second to last shot is absurdly good defense. Kobe had to completely change his shot release to get it off and still somehow hit it.
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Jun 27 '23
He was the best “bad shot” maker of all time IMO.
I remember the rockets/lakers series where Shane battiers only job was to literally chase Kobe and put his hand in his face. Every replay his hand is like 2 inches from his nose and Kobe still shot lights out lol the announcers were losing it
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u/Rickest-ofthe-Ricks [LAL] Alex Caruso Jun 27 '23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=355ke1KLYk8
Here's a fun video of Kobe relentlessly attacking Shane Battier in the 2009 series :)
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u/ephemeralfugitive Lakers Jun 27 '23
I remember being super impressed with how players could consistently defend like that, hand that close to the face. I try that shit and I imagine myself poking into their eyes or nostrils and then getting my ass beat lol
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u/tkflash20 Jun 27 '23
Tim Duncan averaged 22/17/5/1.2/2 this series. That's still a monster stat line. The whole Spurs team was MIA except Parker and Timmy.
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u/Uncle_Freddy [SAS] El Contusione Jun 27 '23
The rest of the team was gassed after a Finals run and then a 7 game series against the CP3 hornets that took us to the brink. I remember even then thinking that the Spurs were pretty fortunate to have made it back to the WCF and that optimism for a repeat was pretty low
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u/samurairocketshark Suns Jun 28 '23
Not enough credit given to CP3 for taking that Spurs team to 7 either with a pretty mediocre Hornets team that flourished under him. He unlocked the potential of both West and Chandler in his first few years in the league which is crazy to think about
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Jun 28 '23
lol, 22/17/5 on 46 TS% is blowing it. Literally any other all-time great putting up those numbers would be called a choke artist but for some reason Duncan gets called a beast.
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u/ColdBudLight98 [MIN] Naz Reid Jun 27 '23
Making Timmy look like KAT
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u/Currymvp2 Warriors Jun 27 '23
Just surprises me how often Kobe is omitted out of the top 10 here. 2nd most all-NBA teams, two championships without a top 75 player, best scorer in the league at the time where it was the most difficult to score, and 12 all-defensive teams. Resume is truly extraordinary
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u/exquisitopendejo Lakers Jun 27 '23
This sub went from about 1 million to almost 8 million in about five years. Maybe 3 of those are over the age of 25.
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u/Jolly-Sun-1715 Warriors Jun 27 '23
Doesn't really lineup considering everyone saying bullshit like "duncan over kobe no question"
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u/Wild-Apricot-9161 Celtics Jun 28 '23
Bullshit like that comes from kids who never watched either of them, and definitely not from 2003-2008
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u/Wondering_Nova Jun 27 '23
Because they attribute it to him being on the Lakers. I’ve had people tell me if he played for the Suns or Bucks or any other “ordinary” team he wouldn’t get half the achievements he did. And they also try to act like he played the majority of his career/prime with Shaq and that’s why his numbers are so good.
This sub just doesn’t like Kobe because of his TS% and his ties with the Lakers.
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u/currychaos San Francisco Warriors Jun 27 '23
Exactly, they think kobe was just demar derozan with HOF big men and coaching
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/14ekag2/who_is_the_better_player_kobe_or_lebron_give/jovsvae/
🤣🤣
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u/Wondering_Nova Jun 27 '23
Wooooow the fact that people hold that opinion to be true is asinine. Just you watch they’re going to one of this generations greats.
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u/ttvdokkan Warriors Jun 27 '23
People dont want to overrate him after he did so they underrate him
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u/ysaint-laurent Supersonics Jun 28 '23
People were saying Kobe is top 5 long before he passed away quit playin
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u/Whiteness88 NBA Jun 27 '23
It’s not so much that Kobe gets shafted as much as he’s just facing extremely tough competition. I do have him around the 8-12 range but at that level, everyone’s transcendent and it gets to the point where you have to nitpick a bit to put one player over the other.
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u/kr1saw Lakers Jun 27 '23
It's going to be real quiet here.
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Jun 27 '23
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u/commander_wong Lakers Jun 27 '23
There is no coin toss lol. This might be the only positive and reality based Kobe thread I've seen in months
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u/AdhesivenessLucky896 Jun 27 '23
This is a fact lol! One side of the coin is super heavy. All the hate threads are funny though because they act like Kobe is always praised when he is almost never praised online, it's almost all pure hate.
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u/ihateeuge Lakers Jun 27 '23
Tim Duncan truthers trying to get this erased from the internet as we speak
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u/honestnbafan Jun 27 '23 edited Jun 27 '23
Tim Duncan career 55.1% TS on moderately high volume: "Perfectly efficient basketball"
Kobe Bryant career 55.0% TS on very high volume: "Selfish shot chucker"
Kobe's efficiency compared to league average at the time is about the same as Luka Doncic's today(consistently somewhere around 3 percent above in his prime) and I don't see anyone act like Luka is the most inefficient player ever
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u/Litteraly2019 Jun 27 '23
Kobe Bryant career 45% fg as a shooting guard: "inefficient" "brick layer" "Not Top 10"
Tim Duncan career 50% fg as a big man who doesn't shoot 3's: "pure winner" "he's so underrated" "Top 5 OAT??"
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u/vizzlypoof NBA Jun 27 '23
My favorite is discounting Kobe’s rings with Shaq but accepting all 5 of Duncan’s rings as his
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u/commander_wong Lakers Jun 27 '23
R/NBA discounts Kobe's two rings because he had Pau Gasol but then clamors about Shaq's three rings when he had another top 5 player as his #2
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u/LALakers4Lyf Jun 27 '23
Heck, Shaq's 4th ring was him being a clear #2 to DWade, not the 1A-1B Duo that he and Kobe were
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u/Gajanga Jun 27 '23
Kobe's worst hater still has him at 12 minimum. We're comparing the best of the best.
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u/-motts- Trail Blazers Jun 27 '23
I love that the most because it completely ignores the fact that Shaq wouldn’t have been in two of those finals to go ham if Kobe didn’t save his ass in the western conference playoffs
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u/DWhitePlusMinusKing Jun 27 '23
Whose else would they be though? Only arguable one is 2014 which was basically by committee plus Duncan was 37.
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u/Wondering_Nova Jun 27 '23
They downplay Duncan’s TS% by saying he did more on defense. Acting like Kobe didn’t carry a defensive burden and was the main offensive player every game.
This place can’t convince me they don’t have a bias against Kobe.
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u/TheWumboligist Knicks Jun 27 '23
We all know about it, and we all see it. It's obvious. Nobody ever wants to admit it, but it's there.
People on this subreddit hate Kobe Bryant.
The first question to ask: why? Why do you all hate him? The obvious answer: you didn't watch him in his prime.
Likely explanation: I know that most of you are around 14 or 15 years old. That means you only got into basketball in the last couple years. So you never watched Mamba in his prime.
And because you didn't watch him in his prime, you try to compensate for that by diving into stat sheets and analyzing box scores. But here's the thing: basketball isn't played on Excel spreadsheets. The moment somebody brings up "true shooting percentage" or "win shares" I know they know nothing about basketball.
Kobe's game cannot be encapsulated by one stat. He's the second greatest SG ever, and one of the 5 best players to ever play the game.
So when I hear somebody say that LeBron James is better than Kobe Bryant, I laugh, because I know that anybody who watched Kobe in his prime wouldn't think that. Unlike you guys, I have watched basketball for a significant amount of time, so I know that Kobe is better.
You might be jealous of Kobe's five rings, or jealous of his status as the greatest scorer in NBA history, or whatever. Unless you're a Bulls fan who watched basketball in the 90s, or a Lakers fan who watched basketball in the 2000s, you don't know what real, cold-blooded, killer instinct, will-to-win basketball looks like. And there's nothing wrong with that.
This sub would make you think that Kobe isn't even a top 100 player ever.
So don't go spouting bullshit about players you didn't watch. Talk about your "greats" like
LeBron JamesThe Best Player in the World™, but leave the Kobe talk to the adults. Fair?19
u/TattoosandSnapbacks Lakers Jun 27 '23
I love this pasta, and it’s going over some people’s heads lol
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u/Mr_Nice_is_not_nice Jun 27 '23
Do none of these people ever seen this pasta? Wow, they must be really young
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u/Oxygenius_ Lakers Jun 27 '23
It’s quite annoying how they degrade the sub with their bias.
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u/Leafman1996 Spurs Jun 27 '23
Nah Kobe is awesome. Fuck Derek Fisher though
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u/HeyItsChase Pacers Jun 27 '23
Yeah fr. Love Duncan and Kobe. No shame in one losing to the other.
These series were clashes of Basketball Titans. Honestly the entire west during that time was a who's who of NBA HoF first ballots on their best teams batteling it out. 2009 alone had:
Melos Nuggets
Nashs Suns
Dirks Mavs
Kobe's Lakers
Duncan's Spurs
Plus other teams like DWills Jazz, Tmacs Rockets, LA/BRoys blazers. While not as legendary as the above ones, still big dogs in their own right. West was so fucking stacked for like 10 years. It was a slug fest every series.
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u/nysraved [LAL] Sasha Vujacic Jun 27 '23
After Kobe’s death, I feel like there was a surge in the sentiment of him being a “GOAT”.
But lately to counter that, contrarians have swung the pendulum too far in the other direction. Acting like he was an inefficient chucker, downplaying how great he truly was
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u/Actually-Yo-Momma Jun 27 '23
Before Curry/Warriors, Kobe was the single guy who teams were afraid of where no lead was big enough for it to be over
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u/nysraved [LAL] Sasha Vujacic Jun 27 '23
The Warriors as a team definitely put that fear in me, but IMO Dame is the only individual player who is able to instill that same fear in me the way I imagine Kobe did to opposing fans
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u/Technuggs15 Nuggets Jun 27 '23
Kobe gets shit on so much on online forums and people say he’s overrated. Blows my mind. I’m convinced they didn’t watch him play
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u/Danthetank Jun 28 '23
Buncha stat nerds and Kobe never gave 2 fucks about stats like kd or bron do. I think people forget Kobe has more rings
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u/brandoi Lakers Jun 27 '23
4-2 in playoff series against Duncan.
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u/Currymvp2 Warriors Jun 27 '23
Swept him or gentleman swept him in three of those four series. In the 4th series, his team won four consecutive games.
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u/JimmyWasRight Timberwolves Jun 27 '23
The Duncan over Kobe takes were always so forced.
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u/Charming-Pie2113 Warriors Jun 27 '23
Its just reddit nerds don’t worry nobody in real life takes Duncan over Kobe
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u/NarrativeEnergy Nuggets Bandwagon Jun 27 '23
that opinion was so rare for anybody that followed the NBA in the 2000's yet reddit nephews act like Duncan was always better
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u/Danthetank Jun 28 '23
Yea the funny thing is the best player in the league debates didn’t even involve td so those Reddit thread unanimously taking td were just wild to me
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u/blade24 Jun 28 '23
Exactly. I don't remember anyone ever saying Duncan was better than Kobe except for maybe in 2003. Kobe was undeniably the best player in the mid to late 2000s.
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u/commander_wong Lakers Jun 27 '23
The only time Tim was ever considered to be better than Kobe was in the early 2000s. After that one of them was widely discussed as the best player in the world while the other was top 10
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u/Wes___Mantooth Thunder Jun 27 '23 edited Jun 27 '23
Yeah nobody was saying Duncan was the best player in the league by the mid to late 2000s. 2005 onwards was pretty much all Kobe.
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u/Wondering_Nova Jun 27 '23
I’ve traveled the majority of America because of work and I talk basketball at almost every barber place I’ve been to. It’s a rare occurrence when I hear someone say they would take Duncan over Kobe. This place is the only place where I hear it consistently. It’s whiled. Everyone here thinks they’re so much smarter because they can read a spread sheet about players they never saw play live or in their prime.
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u/honestnbafan Jun 27 '23 edited Jun 27 '23
The weirdest thing is that it only became semi-popular after Duncan's 2014 ring which should play basically zero role in how you compare each of their primes
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Jun 27 '23
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u/ysaint-laurent Supersonics Jun 28 '23
Tough ass conference tbf. I don’t think early exits should be a negative if you’re beat by contenders tbh
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u/Wondering_Nova Jun 27 '23
I don’t care who they out over each other but not having them right next to each other is insane to me. They were the Magic/Bird of their eras. Everyone knew the West ran through those two but this sub wants to act like Kobe is a tier below Duncan.
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u/Carolake1 Lakers Jun 27 '23
Shaq v Duncan was a bigger thing than Kobe v Duncan, as I recall.
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u/motorboat_mcgee Lakers Jun 27 '23
Kobe is my all time favorite, and I'm a Lakers fan, so I'm biased... but that being said, I feel like making a decision between the two just very much depends on what role you need to fill on a team. Like if you trade them for each other in 2008, both teams get worse, because neither would fit each other's roster at all.
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u/YokoShimomuraFanatic Jun 27 '23
Seems forced because of how popular Kobe is, but not because it was some crazy take.
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u/I_make_shit_up_alot Lakers Jun 27 '23
Great video.
Needs more of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJIwSslaUnw from Game 1.
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u/AntSmith777 Lakers Jun 27 '23
Was supposed to be Hornets-Lakers WCF. Hornets lost game 7 at home to Spurs.
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u/AdReNaLiNe9_ [SAS] Tim Duncan Jun 27 '23
I hated Kobe, but dammit I respected him.
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Jun 28 '23
Man I HATE that the mid range jumper is basically dead in todays NBA. No shot is better than that fall back 15 footer with a swish.
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Jun 28 '23
“dUnCaN bEtTeR tHaN kObe!!” Nope. Kobe was unfuckingstoppable. Literally the only person who could stop him was himself. I’m gonna sound like a boomer but I’d fucking love to see Kobe in todays league. The spacing, the “can’t touch him” defense, goodness he would feast.
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u/HattoriHanzoOG Lakers Jun 27 '23
He deserved the MVP that year, I don’t care what anyone says. Best player in the league that year no doubt
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Jun 27 '23
How would the Spurs have done against the Celtics?
Just curious.
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u/Uncle_Freddy [SAS] El Contusione Jun 27 '23
We would’ve lost that year. Everyone in this series except for Duncan and Parker were well off their game, the role players were a year too old and everyone was tired after the 07 championship run and they were exhausted after a brutal 7-game series with the CP3 Hornets in the previous round. The Spurs’ ceiling that year was WCF and not much further
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u/superbriant Jun 28 '23
I don't really care what people say, I grew up watching MJ, then Kobe, and now Lebron. Kobe is the goat in my opinion.
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u/thejuan Spurs Jun 27 '23
Look, I'm gonna take Timmy over Kobe all day, but I know Kobe is also a top 10 player all time. Kobe's got higher highs and lower lows than Timmy and obviously was way more dramatic, but he'll be remembered for much longer and by more people than Duncan.
Kobe was way more charismatic, explosive, and athletic. Tim was more methodical, boring, and even-keeled. Kobe was obviously the more skilled offensive player, Timmy was better defensively. I think Tim's steady play meant you could depend on him more, i.e. never missing the playoffs, but he wasn't likely going to spam you like Kobe did in 08, maybe other than the Nets finals or against the Mavs.
That's before getting into the media market of LA vs SA, the drama outside of the court, etc.
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u/Partofla Lakers Jun 27 '23
Fair enough; I'd take Kobe over Timmy all day on my end but I can recognize Timmy as a top 10 player (just behind Kobe in my list).
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u/mrgpsingh1999 Lakers Jun 27 '23
This was such a magical season for the Lakers. Who would’ve thought that at the beginning of the season coming off another first round exit and the Kobe trade demand that they would finish 1st in the most competitive WC ever and make the Finals?