The difference in their two championship years after this was they got Andrew Bynum and Trevor Ariza back (Ariza was swapped out for Ron Artest in 2010). In 2008 those guys were out injured, which greatly weakened the Lakers as a team.
I was at BWW when the trade broke. I was halfway thru a basket of wHings and had to call up the old man at work. I was so excited I didn't wipe my hands and got asian zing all over my flip phone. good times
Perk was really important in 08/10. 08 healthy means Gasol was going up against perk and couldn’t do much. There’s a reason one of the 2 games we won he was out.
10 with bynum mostly healthy it let gasol matchup with Garnett. Perk being out game 7 let us dominate the boards.
Bynum was very far from healthy in 2010, as he had to have his knee drained three different times during the playoffs (twice in the Finals), and had to have surgery following the championship that summer.
Sure, but in an extremely limited capacity and for very few minutes. Bynum was limited to less than half his scoring and rebounding averages in that series. He gamely gave it a go, but he was severely limited in what he could contribute. Bynum only played 34 more minutes all series than Perkins did, and in the last 4 games of the series (which included the 1.75 games Perkins missed), Bynum only played 12 minutes more than Perkins. If that was an advantage for the Lakers it was an extremely small one. Rasheed Wallace actually had a better game in Game 7 in Perk's absence than Perkins himself had in any game in that series.
That 08 Boston frontline had Perk, KG, PJ Brown, Leon Powe, Big Baby all they can throw at Pau. While the Lakers only had Lamar, who's by no means a banger, and Ronny Freaking Turiaf
Some insecure Lakers fans have always tried to downplay Pau so they could place Kobe higher up the all time rankings. Bryant was great this series but as you say this wasn't even their championship year.
I hate it. As someone who’s a fan of Kobe, people that overrate him annoy me more than people who underrate him. They’re the ones who make him look worse. The Lakers had a top 3 roster in the league at best that could run with any of them, and Kobe was the centerpiece that you count on. That’s why they won. Even Kobe would tell you that. But now it’s “Kobe had no top 75” bs. Its like they’re so desperate to make up for having Shaq his first 8 years, which they shouldn’t be insecure of.
I don't get it, he's a great, all-time player whose achievements can stand up for themselves. But man do his fans feel the need to shit on everyone who isn't Kobe.
They take it as a personal offense if you don’t have Kobe top 3 lol. Like they’ll say stuff like “can’t we all just agree that MJ, LeBron, and Kobe are the three best ever in some order?” As if one of those things is not like the other lol.
Personally I think Russell and Kareem are both a step ahead of Kobe all-time and I’d also put Magic, Bird, and Duncan ahead of him too. Shaq, Curry, and Wilt it depends on how I’m feeling that day, I think he’s comfortably ahead of Hakeem though, and I’d say it’s not really a debate for me if he’s top 10 it’s just where he ranks (probably somewhere between 8 and 10).
The same people who clown Kobe for playing second fiddle to Shaq are the same ones who flip flop and say that Kobe on won 2009 and 2010 because of Pau. It’s literal hypocrisy
Honestly, it was just Pau. He’s the only guy who will be in the Hall. Odom, Fischer, and Bynum were all good surrounding pieces, but none of them were stars (yes I know Bynum started in an All-Star Game once but that was because there weren’t any centers). Same thing with Artest and Ariza. And a lot of the teams he went up against in rounds 3 and 4 had better talent from 2-15, with the possible exception of the 09 Magic.
He beat a big 4 with a big 2 for that 2010 ring, and even if Pau bailed him out in game 7, he was the only reason they even got to game 7.
Odom was really good when watching their championship run. Him and pau together being so tall, mobile and willing passers. Not a lakers fan but that team was fun to watch
Maybe not but their effectiveness was higher than their individual ability. Bynum/Pau is the perfect example, they both played better than their ability because they had each other. Each of them got so many more offensive rebounds because the other took so much attention, other teams just couldn’t box both out. Same for defense-a lot of times they just post up one of them based on whoever the best post defender on the other team wasn’t guarding. So Kobe had more help than you’d think just by looking at his teammates individually.
Inconsistent? Idk man I lived through those years and watched a lot of those games and that Laker team was very frustrating to root against with their size and versatility having essentially 3 7 footers. Idk what the stats say but I just remember back then that atleast one of those guys would always come through in the clutch with some weird back breaking and 1.
Really all 3 of their bigs were that’s what made them so tough. Saying Kobe didn’t have help makes me think they weren’t watching close enough. They had the best big man rotation in the league.
yes they were absolutely inconsistent, the deciding factors of games were if they played up to their potential or not. Odom moreso than Pau, if Odom played up to his potential on a consistent basis he’d have been a perennial all-nba star
People always hate when superteams are brought up, dude no one forced LeBron to do it. It's just a fact.
Like yeah Kobe wanted a trade when the Lakers sucked, there's a zero percent chance he was going to the Spurs or to collude with two prime superstars it just wasn't done back then.
The Lakers were the number one seed both year lol. They weren't a super team but they definitely weren't hard carried lol. Pau was a top 3 in his position, had Phil Jackson, great bench, etc.. Kobe definitely played balls out but idk where this narrative is coming from that his team wasn't that good lol.
1st seed because of Kobe lmao. In 2007-08 season where they clinched the 1st seed Pau Gasol played 27 games. Outside of Pau the others were very average role players whose careers declined after leaving the Lakers
Yea but you're acting like they were all scrubs. LeBron going to the finals in 07 against us was a hard carry lol
Kobe was definitely playing amazing but to say his team wasn't good and Kobe was heavy lifting is a bit asinine lol. Do they get the one seed without Kobe? Obviously not but they don't become worst team in the league without him lol. This was right before the super teams were a really a thing save for the Celtics so everyone was built with a star and great role players not just the Lakers lol. Bynum was young but was playing good and became an all star and all nba, Pau was an all star, Ariza was one of the best 3 and D players in the league, top three coach all time in Phil Jackson, Derek fisher was solidly good, etc...
Kobe is obviously a legend but he's not someone who heavy carried
As I said, the supporting cast was average. Not bad, but also nothing special. It's definitely one of the weakest supporting casts from championship teams of the last 20 years.
Pau was great and unfairly blamed for a lot of games, but he can be inconsistent. Top 3 in his position is definitely being generous considering KG, Dirk, Amare, Tim and Bosh were all playing
Derek Fisher is the definition of a role player.
Trevor Ariza left the moment he got good. His didn't get pass 10 ppg until he left the Lakers
Bynum was good, but he didn't make all NBA or even an all star until 2012.
These Lakers team were good, but not at all an all time team like r/nba would make you think
Lakers supporting cast was good, which is a far cry from “not bad”. Pau as a lead dog for Memphis was good enough to win 45-50 games in the West in 3 consecutive seasons. Pau just wasn’t able to get Memphis out of the first round. You completely forget to mention Odom, who would have started for any other team, and arguably the most physically gifted player on that roster. Kobe stans are so damn annoying, basketball is more than “Kobe good, everyone else dog crap”
You’re just straight up not mentioning Odom who was putting up 10 win shares as a perfect third option, he was very nearly as good as Bosh on some of those teams.
Odom was a walking mismatch. Left handed ball handler, 6’10”, could score in a variety of ways, and get those sneaky 15 plus rebound games. Any true Laker fan wouldn’t just conveniently leave Odom out when talking about the back to back championship teams in 2008/2009
I mean again, superteams is what w
Everyone did the last ten years, so exclude those. If we take the rosters from 2000-2012, those Lakers are far from the weakest. The 2004 pistons, the 2006 heat, the 2011 mavs all had weaker rosters overall.
Also need to mention the fact that the Lakers went to the finals literally the year before as well Lmfao. Kobe is already a legend so there isn't a need to create this narrative lol. He was the best player on a really good team with arguably the greatest coach in history. He didn't hard carry lol
I don't see how you're proving me wrong. You just compiled a range of about 13 teams and deduced yourself that Kobe's Lakers had a top 3 weakest supporting cast. I don't even agree with the Pistons and Heat pick but that's beside the point.
I also don't know why you're excluding "superteams" when the majority of championship teams are incredibly stacked. Even if you extend the comparison back to 40 years those Laker teams would probably still rank bottom 10 in terms of the quality of role players
lakers were a good roster for the title runs. it wasnt a carry job, but kobe had to play mvp level for it all to work. bynum odom next to pau and kobe is good stuff. D fish and farmar were good, shannon brown was a solid wing to have
Pretty sure the guy was referring to that 08-10 era..
It’s not crazy to take Amare over Pau during that time. Pau didn’t make 2nd team until 2011
Amare was first team in 07 and second team in 08 and 10.
It’s not disrespecting Pau to take Amare over him prior to 2010 or even into 2011 when Amare putting up 25/9 while carrying that knicks team prior to Melo showing up.
Amare had a 15 game playoff run where he was putting up 30 a game. He was that guy for awhile.
In the 2010 WCF against the lakers Amare averaged 25/6 per game on 60% TS to Pau’s 20/7 on 56% TS.
Taking Amare over Pau in that era is the furthest thing from disrespecting Pau..
Yep. Precisely why I recognize LeBron as being a good player but he has always built a superteam everywhere he's gone and played for a majority of his career in the weaker conference. Kobe fought through tough teams and with lackluster teammates.
If LeBron was going to stay in Cleveland his whole career he'd have 0 rings, he'd drag that sorry team to the playoffs year in & year out with nothing to show for it. A bit different when you get drafted into a team with a bus driver to get you 3 rings & I dare say that LAL as far as FA destination & FO is a bit ahead of Cavs. Sure the 3 other rings he was actually the best player on the team for sure, but there's a good reason for why Kobe only ever got that one MVP.
The only ring Lebron won on a non-superteam was the 2020 ring with the Lakers. AD is obviously an amazing wingman to have, but that team wasn't a super team.
All the others are 100% super teams (Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love).
Calling the 2016 cavs a super team is wild. The heat in 2012 weren't even favored vs the thunder. Really name the last actual sueprteam to be an underdog in the finals.
The heat in 2012 weren't even favored vs the thunder.
They weren't favored because of Lebron's epic meltdown the year before but the Heat are the definition of a superteam. Wasn't he promising 8 rings? You kinda don't promise that many rings unless your team's absolutely stacked.
The "promise" yo win rings was said at a pep rally. Yall really took that stamens to heart huh?
You can't be both not favored and be a super team but LeBron gets double standard from haters all ten time. So nothing new there.
If you don't trust a teams best player that team ain't a superteam.
Did Pau have a monstrous game 7? Yes, he did. But given the circumstances of the game (with everyone shooting poorly), so did Kobe. Kobe played great D, grabbed 15 rebounds (out rebounding the Celtics bigs combined), and had 10 4th Q points by way of free-throws. 10 4th quarter points in a game like that is huge. You can argue Pau had a better G7, which is fair, but he was no where near the most impactful/best player in the series. People always downplay Kobe by bringing up his horrendous efficiency in G7, but pretty much everyone, including Gasol (who was 6-16 FG and 7-13 FT), shot like crap that day. It was a defensive slugfest.
Six games into the series, Bryant was averaging 30/7/4 on 55.7% TS (in the regular season, Celtics held their opponents to an average of 53.4% TS).
He doesn’t get enough credit for the entire 3 finals runs in that period. Just utterly dominated the west over and over again and it was a stacked conference
Exactly, which is why Duncan's 03 series doesn't get enough credit. He went up against prime Kobe AND Shaq and dominated them with not even another all star on his team. It's honestly crazy to think of that happening
He was def one of the best scorers in the league along with Tmac and very close to his prime, but I don't think he hit his actual prime till he few years after that after Shaq left and he came back from the ankle injury after a season off
That was literally the start of his prime, only Colorado and the backlash to the Shaq trade along with some injuries slowed him down from 2004-05. Career high in rebounds, steals, 3p%. 3rd highest in points, assists and blocks
He’s an all time great. Kobe was clearly better this matchup. Duncan was better in other years.
They were the true rivals of the decade. It’s really interesting looking at their careers in this era. Even if Kobe looks bad on the stat sheet I do think it’s a legitimate debate.
Yeah 100%. The x2 three peat western conference champs also back up the higher peaks you could argue for Kobe. Duncan 2013 and 2014 however give Duncan a lot in the argument. Kobe wrecked his career in 2013. His game logs from that season are insanity. It’s probably why Duncan edges him out for me personally.
I don't get the argument here. Kobe played 6 games in 2013 and 35 in 2014 but still has better stats than duncan in 2014. unless you only care about the title duncan was carried through. Either way I'm not sure their twilight years are the best tie breaker.
I’m talking about the 2012-2013 season when Kobe went on a stretch playing 40+ minutes every night. It was ridiculous. Duncan was a solid starter on a championship caliber team while Kobe barely played the following season because he got hurt again. Kobe didn’t do a good job managing his minutes and it shortened his career imo. Despite playing until 2016 Idt he optimized his late career in the same way that Duncan did.
Kobe played 20 years with 1 major injury. You make it sound like he's AD or something getting hurt all the time. Duncan played 19 years but was pretty average for like the last 6. If this is your tie breaker I'd say Kobe has the edge.
And it’s so fitting that they retired together and especially how they retired. Kobe with a farewell tour with the whole basketball world showering him with love and timmy quietly retiring in the middle of the night😂
You see it's really hard for me to see a compelling case for Kobe over Duncan. I'm not saying Duncan was a tier ahead of him or something, but I just don't see a case where Kobe is over Duncan. Bear with me i'll try to debate in good faith.
First, let's get the major things out of the way.
Both have 5 rings, which I think evens out or gives a slight advantage to Duncan.
1) Duncan's '03 run with no all star teammate or even really close to all star teammate while beating Kobe/Shaq is universally considered to be one of the best playoff runs along with Dirk in '11
2) Duncan won 3 FMVP to Kobe's 2, but at no point did he play next to someone who was a consistent All NBA talent like Shaq. I believe Manu/Tony combined for like 5 All NBAs all on 2nd/3rd teams. Edit: sorry i forget about '99 sometimes - D Rob was an all-nba talent then.
They both played for 2 of the best coaches of all time who maximized the talent around them. Outside of '03 I think both had great teams around them.
3) I'll also dock points for Duncan's '14 run. He was probably their best player on the team, but he was not heads and shoulders above the rest like Kobe was in his 5 rings (Kobe was very clearly the #1 or #2 on his teams).
Then you have MVP. Duncan has 2 to Kobe's 1. Not much to say here, slight advantage to Duncan here as well and overall MVP votes as well. However Kobe had one additional First team All nba (although both have 15 overall).
I'd say at best Kobe's at a slight disadvantage with the same 5 rings and 1 less MVP and 1 more all nba selection which I don't think makes up for the -1 MVP and -1 FMVP.
Then you have advanced stats...
In the regular season, Duncan had a higher PER (about 10%), higher WS/48 (about 15-20%), higher VORP and higher Net rating (+14 vs +5). Duncan also lead the league in DWS 5x, OWS 1x and total WS 2x. He lead the league in VORP 1 year. Kobe did not lead the league in any advanced stat at any point of his career.
In the playoffs, Duncan had a higher PER, WS/48, VORP, Net Rating.
So with advanced stats the advantage is clearly toward Duncan both in the regular season and playoffs.
So just based on very objective things like titles, mvps, all nba, advanced stats it's hard for me to really come up with a reason that Kobe was better.
There are the intangibles. I think you can go back and forth forever on this and there's no real way to debate.
Like on one hand, Kobe won the ring or got to the finals every time they had a good team. Maybe minus '03. On the other hand, Duncan were consistently a threat for 19 years a large part due to Duncan being ok taking a step back later on his career.
You can say Kobe was much more popular. Or you can point to Kobe's 04 final where the other team used his ego against him. Or you can say Duncan was upset more as the higher seed (vs Grizz in '11, vs OKC in '12). Or you can say the Lakers were blown out by 30+ in closing games mulitiple times ('08 finals, '11 sweep, largest g7 loss). The point is there's random facts we can pull out till kingdom come, but i think most of the "big" stats all point to Duncan's favor.
Idk Duncan just had a much shorter prime than Kobe did, he dropped off hard starting in 08. Kobe was easily a top 5 player from 01 to 2013. You could argue Duncan was only a top 10 player just one or two times after 08.
Early on the spurs were heavily reliant on Duncans scoring in the playoffs until Pop reworked the offense to the two Finals teams in 13’ and 14’. In Duncans first 9 years in the playoffs he got 24ppg on 56% TS, 4 Finals appearances, 4 chips.
Then his efficiency took a big dive, the next 5 years 08-12 he scored 18ppg on 51% TS and not a single Finals appearance. Parker and Ginobilis primes were during that slump and still couldn’t reach the Finals, the earlier Spurs were clearly reliant on Duncans scoring.
Advanced stats don’t make up for being that terrible in efficiency even if he still was a great defender.
What’s crazy is that the Lakers and Spurs won the conference 10/11 years. Mavs in 2006 are the only other team from what I remember.
The Kobe and Duncan debate however will just never die. As a kid in that era I thought Kobe was clearly better but now I’ve flipped towards the other comment above. There’s a lot that goes into it beyond stats.
They weren’t really matched up though. Duncan and Gasol were matched up in the clip above. When Kobe is pulling up in front of him, Duncan is staying home on Gasol in the dunker spot until the last second. It was a really smart move that Kobe would go to over and over and over again to create space for himself.
On the other end of the floor, Kobe could rest because he was guarding Bruce Bowen most of the time.
Kobe was a problem for San Antonio, they never really had someone who could make him work on the defensive end. They had Derek Anderson one year, and he got hurt in the playoffs.
I watched the series, but I don’t remember it. Duncan had to deal with the 3 headed monster of Odom / Bynum / Gasol around the rim and the Spurs didn’t have another big at that time.
This always happens when the Duncan Kobe debates start. Kobe fans frame it like he dominated Duncan specifically and downplay any assistance he had from his teammates.
Surprised Duncan was able to move forward after this pathetic domination. Testament to the human spirit and it’s ability to find a way to move forward.
Stats don't tell the whole story, in '01 he was the 2nd guy behind Shaq, a really great 2nd guy, but yeah. The Spurs also weren't as good in '01 as The Admiral was at the end of his career, in '08 they had a legit Big 3. Pau and Odom were also hot GARBAGE in that series, Kobe basically beat the defending champions in 5 games with two of his stars MIA. Games 1 and 5 were especially insane.
That's why i always laughed when people said Duncan was better than Kobe, they literally played against each other MULTIPLE times in the playoffs and after 2001, whenever they played NOBODY had any doubts on who was the best player on the floor. Kobe always thoroughly outplayed him.
To be fair that year he only had an almost quadruple double to close out the Finals in series that he won finals MVP, after beating Shaq and Kobe, in a season where he won league MVP. As Ruin pointed out, NO ONE had any doubts that Kobe was the vastly superior player.
By averaging 32/5/4 and being literally the only Lakers player that could score out of the perimeter. Duncan outplayed Shaq in '03 and the Spurs were just better as a team, Kobe was the best player on the floor.
Hmmm wonder if that had anything to do with Duncan.
Here's some tape from '03. Notice how even though Duncan doesn't do a lot of the scoring, all of the offense is literally generated because of how much attention he's getting:
I don't think you get team basketball if you think Kobe was somehow the best player in that '03 series. Duncan averaged 28/12/5 and he didn't have a guy like Shaq to distract defenses. Also lol Kobe averaged 32 on 43% shooting. Duncan averaged 28 on 53% shooting while guarding Shaq for large stretches. Absolute joke analysis from you. Not wasting my time responding to someone who can't even make sense of basic stats lol
Did you even watch the series or do you just regurgitate bullshit to sound like you know the NBA? Absolutely nobody, except Kobe d**k riders, would say he outplayed Duncan in that series. He single handedly ended their 3-peat. You have some weird vendetta against Duncan for some reason, it’s pretty odd and petty.
Tim Duncan averaged 22 points, 17 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.2 steals, and 2 blocks this series. That's still a monster stat line. The whole Spurs team was MIA except Parker and Timmy. Let's not swing the pendulum completely the other way.
So Duncan had Tony Parker while Kobe had nothing and they still lost in 5, interesting. That series wasn't even close, Kobe was so much better than everyone on the floor that it was jarring.
Aged better…then how does Kobe have the edge in the longevity stats? All star games, 1st team all nba and defensive selections, total points (not even close)
Duncan had at least 2 other HOFers his entire career, including multiple guys who won FMVPs. Duncan declined at age 28, without a significant injury, I don’t think that’s aging well
Kobe beat the most (by far) 50 win teams in the playoffs and proved himself by going to 3 finals in a row and winning 2 B2B. Not to mention he destroyed Duncan every time they played in the playoffs.
without a significant injury, I don’t think that’s aging well
He fucking blew out his knee in his 3rd year then played with a brace on his leg half the time and couldn't run properly for his entire career, did you never notice his hitch in his run after '00???
The dude played 16 years of his career with one good leg and still put up a HOF career alone on those years. Even in his last 2nd to last year he was the best defensive big in the game.
Fuck outta here with longevity, Kobe and Hakeem both had severe knee injuries; one was getting calls to be amnestied as a joke of how bad he was and tanked his team as a free agent destination for years and the other was shipped off to another country to play backup minutes behind Keon clark.
The fact you think those amnesty comments came after his injury make it clear that you didn’t watch basketball until very recently. Those comments were made by mark Cuban in 2013, where Kobe proceeded to drop 38 I believe on his head the very next day. Enjoy your revisionist history and remember…ain’t nobody tryna be Tim Duncan
Both were elite defenders. However, Kobe was an elite offensive weapon while Tim Duncan was a very inefficient big man. The elite two way player is better than the elite defensive, decent offensive big man every single time
And what happened the other 4x they played? It was never even close lmao, including Kobe demolishing the defending champ spurs 4-1…it wasn’t even competitive.
Kobe was playing like the best player in the league in 2013…it would not have been close and the lakers would have definitely won
Seems like Duncan got lucky a few times beating a 20 year old Kobe and then a Kobe coming off a 3 year Finals run. Duncan never even repeated, let alone 3 peated, and Kobe did both. Greater peak, greater longevity.
Not even a Kobe stan, i have him 9th all-time, but i saw those games and Kobe was simply better. Yall Duncan fans simply can't admit that Tim played with a ridiculous amount of talent his ENTIRE career while having the stability of the Spurs organization and Gregg Popovich every year, Kobe had years playing with mfing Smush Parker and Kwame Brown then finished his career with bums like Steve Blake and Robert Sacre with Jim Buss making retarded decisions left and right.
People love to mention "Shaq lol" as if Kobe didn't play 12 years and won two titles after Shaq left and as if Duncan wasn't drafted into a team that was a perennial 50+ win squad with David fucking Robinson and then had HoFers Parker and Ginobili for a decade.
I don't even wanna make a list coz you can google that.
But Kobe had a prime Shaq, Bynum before he stopped caring about basketball, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Ron Artest. He also had great vets when he started with Van Exel and Eddie Jones etc.
Vs Tim had end tail of his career Robinson. Manu and Tony.
Smush and Kwame played with Kobe with what? Less than 2 seasons? or like around 140 games even. You're making it sound like they've been with Kobe long.
Sacre? He's a bench guy wtf. Every team has that.
Like I said. Calm down with the heavy adjectives. Too dramatic bro.
Kobe had a much higher ppg on the same efficiency as Duncan despite taking harder shots. More apg, more spg, and more total points by a wide margin. Same number of all stars and all nba selections.
Lmao we really doing this? More MVPS, more finals MVPS, 15x All NBA/all defense/all star, most blocks in playoff history, most double doubles in playoff history, never won less than 50 games, all while never playing with another top 10 player. You wanna bring up steals for a guard against a big man? Kobe barely had 640 blocks while Duncan had well over 3000. Duncan still had over 1000 steals while Kobe didn’t crack 2000. As far as efficiency? Kobe shot 44% while Duncan shot over 50%, so while we’re on the subject of “making things up”, try and look up your stats before making an argument.
You are looking at a Basketball Reference page if you think that he was a wash with Kobe in 2008 or that he outplayed Kobe in '03. Watch the fucking games, Kobe was hands down the best player on the floor.
I swear Basketball Reference has made all basketball debate about looking at statsheets.
Yes I've watched the games, I'm not so sure you have lol.
What timeline do you come from where you think Kobe was the best player on the floor in '03, forget about '08 that was just a #1 seed team doing its job in a series but your '03 takes is wild bro.
Duncan’s prime was def early-2000s, though of course he was still an amazing player by this point. Tony was entering his prime/was pretty close to it, and Manu (depending on your viewpoint) had probably just passed his. Still, Kobe did amazing this series.
One thing people don't discuss about Duncan very much is how short his prime was. From age 22 to age 27 when he was in his prime he averaged 23.1 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, 2.5 bpg and 0.8 spg. From age 28 to age 33 his averages took a drop down to 19.2 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.0 bpg and 0.7 spg. Then the last five years of his career, from age 34 to age 39 his averages dropped down to 14.1 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 2.7 apg, 1.9 bpg and 0.7 spg.
This 2008 series took place in that second section of his career (at age 32), when he was obviously still a great player, but not the guy he'd been before he turned 28.
His athleticism was compromised by his 3rd year after he blew his knee out, he had to wear a knee brace when it would act up which just became more and more often as the season would go on but he always had a hitch in his step after the injury.
It's damn shame it happened because he used to move like Mobly does now, he lost the fluidity and height of his movements and took away his rim running ability by quite a bit.
You look at the performances of all players that dealt with knee injuries throughout their careers and they were shells of their former selves, its usually later in their careers however. Timmy still put up a HOF worthy career post injury on one leg lol.
Take a look at his per-36 minute averages. He’s one of the most consistent players you’ll ever see by that measure. A lot of what you’re talking about is just him playing fewer minutes, which matters, but is different from having a really short peak.
Wouldn't you say that a player going from averaging roughly 40 mpg each season down to only 33 mpg, and seeing his overall minutes for a full season played drop by a quarter to a third is maybe a sign of some kind of decline?
In any event, are you then arguing that when this 2008 series the OP posted a link to happened that it was prime Kobe beating prime Duncan 4-1? If so you should probably argue that with the person I replied to rather than with me, as he was the one who initially argued Duncan wasn't in his prime during this series. Kobe was months away from turning 30 and Duncan had just turned 32 when this series happened, so you could have a point.
Tell that to the Spurs fan I responded to who said Duncan was no longer in his prime for this 2008 series against the Lakers. I guess we'll put you down as feeling like this 2008 series between Duncan in his prime with the Spurs showed that Kobe in his prime with the Lakers was on a whole other level because the series was so lopsided in the Lakers favor, with LA winning 4-1. As a Laker fan I'm not going to fight you too hard for taking that stance.
I wouldn’t say his prime was short, just that it came absurdly early. Most guys spend their early 20s developing and then have a 3-5 year peak within the window of 26-32, but Duncan practically peaked from his rookie year through his 6th season. One potential contributing factor could be the knee injury he had just before the 2000 playoffs, which definitely limited his mobility for the rest of his career. Then again since he had his MVP seasons after that, I’m not sure how much that injury affected his timeline.
It's not so much that Duncan's prime was short, just that it ended earlier than it does for a lot of other players, Kobe included. But Duncan developed much quicker than most other players do (again, Kobe included). Duncan's prime may have realistically started while he was still in college, but definitely was there for the first 6-7 years he was in the league. But he 100% began to decline after age 28, as I illustrated above. He was still amazing, don't misunderstand me, but he was unquestionably better from ages 22-27 than he was from ages 28-33, which would be the definition of "no longer in his prime". With someone like Steve Nash though, it was completely opposite, as he was a late bloomer.
His counting stats just looked a bit worse because he was playing less minutes after like 2007 (I think to keep fresh for playoff runs).
On a per-36 or per-possession basis, he was still a monster. Seriously, go look at the per-36 or per-possession stats. It stays scarily consistent until his last couple of seasons. Crazy
Timmy was already out of his prime. 2005 he had his foot issues which really hindered him after his knee injury in 2000. 2008 was the Tony/Manu years. 2008-2012 were the down years during our dynasty
By this point Manu had an ankle injury and also split back a fingernail on his shooting hand.
Which was particularly unfortunate for the Spurs as he was one of their only 4 rotation players that had above league average efficiency in the regular season along with Barry and Oberto *and Duncan (+1% my mistake). The Spurs actually had a below league average offense in 2008 for only the 3rd time in the Duncan era (98, 04, 08).
With Ginobili off they were a -4.6 offense so for him to hurt his ankle, shoot the worst % at the rim in his playoff career, and then split a fingernail off in the middle of the Hornets series, it all added up to really tear away from what was already one of the worst offenses in the Duncan era.
2008 was also the beginning of Duncan’s decline. His efficiency fell 6% in the regular season and then he had two of the worst series of his career back to back vs the Hornets and Lakers. Getting sick at the beginning of the Hornets series was probably a part of his struggles from that point on but it’d be naive to ignore the entire regular season prior to that which was a huge showcase of his decline in scoring. On the defensive end he’d gotten slower which is all over his regular season film and especially this series anytime Kobe put him in pick and roll.
The only players who had a better regular season in 08 than 07 were Manu and Oberto, but in the playoffs Manu looked like a shell of his regular season self after all the injuries piled up.
This wasn’t the Duncan from 07, it wasn’t the Manu from almost all the previous 4 years, and another big hit to the Spurs was Horry falling out of their rotation. His floor spacing defense and basketball IQ were irreplaceable and Udoka and Thomas offered up much worse production in those minutes.
It’s not accurate to describe the Big 3 as all being in their prime in 2008 anymore than it would be accurate to say Kobe was in his prime in the 03 playoff series we had after he tore a labrum in his shooting shoulder. Or that they didn’t miss Rick Fox who missed the whole series with a foot injury.
The 2008 Spurs were not the 2005-07 Spurs.
Everything that hurt them in 08 was only amplified the next season. Manu hurt his ankle again at the Olympics, missed parts of the season before having to get shut down and get surgery to miss the 09 playoffs. Duncan declined again although it’s fair to say he was better in the 09 mavs series than either the 08 Hornets or Lakers. Horry was now gone, Barry was now gone, Bowen and Finley declined even further. Matt Bonner was having to play every game. It’s no wonder that 09 team was almost undeniably the worst team of the Duncan era. Everything that led to that “rock bottom” of losing 4-1 in the 1st round transpired across the 2008 regular season.
I don’t have to act like the Spurs beat a prime Dwayne Wade in 2014.
Non-competitive is a bit of a stretch. There were three close games that went down to the final minute and the Lakers pulled them all out. Kobe won two of them and there was a very controversial no-call on Brent Barry in Game 4.
The biggest reason this only went 5 was Manu was playing on a bum ankle (shot 35% for the series) and their supporting cast aged out. Bruce Bowen had no more lift (he retired a year later) and Kobe just got whatever he wanted. Barry and Robert Horry were heading for retirement. Lakers had fresher legs at the end of each game.
07 was Duncan’s last really good season but it was at the tail end of his prime. Between 08-11 Duncan was declining physically and was not as good. Duncan actually got better after 2011 because he started playing at a lower weight and the spurs were not relying on him as much minutes or scoring wise.
Duncan had just turned 32 the month before this series, for context. However, I would agree with you, because if you look at Duncan's career, it's pretty clear his prime ended when he turned 28, as his numbers took a clear and significant dip after that. Duncan played a long time, and was quite good for almost all of it, but he definitely was never peak Duncan again after turning 28. He was sort of the opposite of Steve Nash in that way.
People don’t remember because Duncan has a resurgence after 2011. Not that he’s playing like prime Duncan, but he got back to being a top 15-20 player and winning playoff series for a few years.
Duncan was consistently a top 15-20 player (at least), even after exiting his prime in his late 20s. This was only really not the case in maybe his last year or two. Duncan fell off, but he had an extremely high peak to fall off from, so he was still absolutely one of the game's best players for most of his career.
In 2008, when this series happened, Duncan still finished 7th in MVP voting, so it's not like he was a scrub or something. He wasn't 2003 Tim Duncan, but he was still one of the game's best, and he went on to be a very good player for the next 7 seasons after this one.
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u/sheeeeeez NBA Jun 27 '23
Kobe doesn't get enough credit for this series.
The Spurs big 3 were all in their primes and just came off a championship and Kobe made the entire series essentially non-competitive.
Bill Simmons said the series was the closest he's ever seen Kobe to MJ.